Big Gun Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 19 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said: I just felt Jackson is one if those guys people love to bash. All I know is I’ve seen a guy who consistently seems to dominate no matter what level he is on. I believe Allen has the better arm but when you look at their careers, both in college and the pros, Jackson has been the much better player. Hopefully Allen will get there. Bet you Allen has the longer, better more distinguished career. When it's all said and done, IMO it won't even be close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orlando Tim Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 8 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Or, Lamar leveled up his passing game and really improved between last season and this season. He might improve more and eliminate some of his deficiencies. That is what Harbaugh says about him - "he's the kind of a player, whatever you ask him to work on, he'll improve it". Very similar expression of confidence to what we hear about our QB from Beane: "I don't believe there's a hurdle Josh Allen can't get over". I hope that's justified, so I don't know why I'd disbelieve it's possible for Jackson. While you might be right I would place the odds on his athleticism slipping slightly and he is a little worse next year- but predicting not the MVP is not exactly groundbreaking. If he is simply the 7th best QB next year I am right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 2 hours ago, eball said: I'll give you one reason why -- intelligence. I don't care how great of an athlete Lamar Jackson is, if he doesn't have it upstairs he's always going to be limited. The guy had a terrible Wonderlic and I don't think it's a stretch to say he is a little intellectually challenged. Becoming a better passer is about more than mechanics and practice. Will he ever be able to run a complex offense or read defenses effectively? Hey, I give Harbaugh and Roman credit -- they went all-in and designed an offense to minimize his weaknesses. What happens when Roman moves on? What happens next season when everyone is using the Buffalo/Tennessee blueprint? I'm not "bashing" Lamar, I'm just calling it like I see it. In contrast to Josh Allen, Lamar has been playing quarterback for a long time at a high level. He played in the ACC for a program that was in the running for conference championships. Call me crazy but I don't think he's going to suddenly develop into a productive pocket passer. I dunno about "bashing" Lamar. Would it be fair to say that you are making assumptions about his overall intelligence and football intelligence based upon his Wonderlic score and speech patterns? Both Harbaugh and Roman are on record as saying Lamar Jackson is very intelligent. Either they're lying through their teeth (and while I do think that happens with coaches and OC's, neither Harbaugh nor Roman strike me as the type - they impress me as men with some integrity), or Lamar Jackson is, in fact, intelligent in the sense that matters to them as coaches, someone who can understand a game plan and a play design, interpret what he sees on the field, direct the other players, and react appropriately. Vince Young (someone with a multi-million arm and a $0.10 head), all the evidence to date says Jackson is not. I took a practice Wonderlic at one point. It reminded me very much of SAT, GRE, and other standardized tests. Better people than I have written at length about the racial and socioeconomic factors that bias these sorts of tests. More to the point, people have studied whether or not the Wonderlic predicts NFL success and concluded it doesn't. Now that being said, there's the contention that Lamar Jackson's score (13 I think it was) is freak-out low - that there's a lower limit. My personal opinion is that Mama Jackson didn't see a high Wonderlic score as conducive to her boy's success as a QB, so unlike Johnny Manziel (who scored a 32, how did that work out?) he didn't bother to prepare for it just like he didn't hire an agent or return phone calls from teams he doubted would fully commit to his success as a QB. Of course, you could be right, I could be wrong, and Harbaugh/Roman could be lying through their teeth, in which case time will tell. Allen struggled against Blitz0 and man so much this season for 3 reasons: 1) he had a great big hole in his game that matched the hole Blitz0 leaves: the deep post 2) the Bills for whatever reason did not have a meaningful screen game 3) our "smurf" WR struggle against physical coverage and to make contested catches. That didn't mean he struggled against every team, because not every team had the defensive talent to pull that off, but either Allen will fix what he can control, or teams that can pull it off will continue to smother us. Jackson struggles to make those throws to the outside and to make accurate throws when he's under pressure (he's not used to it). If he doesn't fix those holes in his game, he'll continue to struggle against teams that have the defensive talent to pull that off - but the Ravens will still win a lot of games, because most teams don't. I don't think he'll suddenly become a productive pocket passer, but he doesn't need to - he just needs to be able to hit those throws enough to force teams out of smothering the middle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BADOLBILZ Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 8 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: I guess this is an improvement for you on responding to disagreement (with reasoning laid out and data to back it) "It was an absurd take which you are just advancing out of spite", to which I give props as one of the most peculiar and egocentric responses I've seen on this board. We cherish our small steps of progress. Mahomes is a great QB. He also, as has been pointed out, came into an ideal developmental situation with an offensive system that was clicking along well enough to notch 10,11,12 wins and see playoffs every year. He got to sit and learn for a season. He got a proven top offensive mind as his coach and a OL, quality WR and TE who all knew the system. Given what Reid did with Alex Smith, I personally wouldn't want to bet that Mahomes is the only QB in the NFL that could take that team to the Superbowl. I happen to think that if Mahomes had started his rookie year, given everything that was said about his footwork etc. - behind a crap OL with no run game and throwing to crap WR, he would not have looked "all world". Since no one gets a "do over" on that, we'll have to stop at "we disagree". I pat myself on the back quite regularly. My physical therapist recommends it as a means to rehab my shoulder. She'd like me to do it more than I do. 1) That description was entirely accurate for that take. 2) The 2017 Chiefs and Ravens were 6th and 9th in the NFL in scoring respectively.........basically 1 ppg apart.......why don't we credit Lamar Jackson for lucking out by getting with a good offensive team? In year 2 both Mahomes and Jackson raised their teams offensive output by 10 points per game.............that kinda' jump isn't about the pre-existing system and both offenses had been changed significantly to accommodate the two young QB's. But as to the "it couldn't happen in Buffalo" argument..........there is really no basis for it.......the 2016 Bills offense outscored the Chiefs and lead the NFL in big plays(over 100 plays of 20+ yards) for the second consecutive season. 3) I will have to defer to your expertise on footwork because I see most of the same stuff I saw at Texas Tech. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 9 minutes ago, Buffalo Timmy said: While you might be right I would place the odds on his athleticism slipping slightly and he is a little worse next year- but predicting not the MVP is not exactly groundbreaking. If he is simply the 7th best QB next year I am right. Fair. What criteria for ranking? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Gun Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 12 hours ago, Billl said: Mahomes’s first ever game was on the road against the Broncos. He went 22/35 for 284 yards in 3 quarters. That’s more than any game in Allen’s career. Here are all the players who caught passes. Albert Wilson Demetrius Harris Demarcus Robinson Anthony Sherman Jehu Chesson Akeem Hunt (not to be confused with Kareem Hunt) He wouldn’t have thrown 50 TDs, but he would have still had an MVP caliber season with the Bills receivers. 3 elled Bill strikes again, haters gonna hate no matter how wrong they are! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 2 hours ago, eball said: I'll give you one reason why -- intelligence. I don't care how great of an athlete Lamar Jackson is, if he doesn't have it upstairs he's always going to be limited. The guy had a terrible Wonderlic and I don't think it's a stretch to say he is a little intellectually challenged. Becoming a better passer is about more than mechanics and practice. Will he ever be able to run a complex offense or read defenses effectively? Hey, I give Harbaugh and Roman credit -- they went all-in and designed an offense to minimize his weaknesses. What happens when Roman moves on? What happens next season when everyone is using the Buffalo/Tennessee blueprint? I'm not "bashing" Lamar, I'm just calling it like I see it. In contrast to Josh Allen, Lamar has been playing quarterback for a long time at a high level. He played in the ACC for a program that was in the running for conference championships. Call me crazy but I don't think he's going to suddenly develop into a productive pocket passer. So what if he doesn't develop into an accomplished pocket passer. What if he is an effective one read passer and one of the best mobile and dual threat qbs in the game? In your evaluation of qbs you have a conventional paradigm and then you judge players based on that standard. What if there are a variety of offensive paradigms that prove to be successful? There are different styles of runners, and there are different styles of receivers who in their own unique ways are elite players. You can also use the same reasoning for DTs. Aaron Donald's style of play is certainly different from many other interior defensive linemen. To an extent all qbs are system qbs in that teams design their offenses to accentuate the strengths and minimize the weaknesses of their qbs. Winning is the goal. How you do it and how aesthetic you are as a qb is a secondary issue compared to how it translates into winning. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 33 minutes ago, pop gun said: Bet you Allen has the longer, better more distinguished career. When it's all said and done, IMO it won't even be close. I would love this to be the case, but there are "miles to go" for Allen and the Bills before this happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StHustle Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 23 hours ago, MJS said: I heard that Jarvis has been to 5 straight pro bowls. What!? No way he deserves that. Are you serious? He has the most receiving yards for the first 5 seasons of any WR in NFL history Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 28 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said: 1) That description was entirely accurate for that take. It is not an accurate description of any "take" that is held by the writer, and is backed up with an argument and some data (which mine was), to ascribe it to "spite" , whether or not you disagree with it. It is, in fact, massively egocentric. That you are doubling down on this speaks volumes, and poorly, about what you've become as a poster. I'm speaking as a TBD denizen here: you need to absorb the gestalt of your own posts and look in a mirror. You've become something that 5 or 10 years ago, you would have sincerely abhorred. But I digress. Quote 2) The 2017 Chiefs and Ravens were 6th and 9th in the NFL in scoring respectively.........basically 1 ppg apart.......why don't we credit Lamar Jackson for lucking out by getting with a good offensive team? I do. I think that was part of his and "Mama Jackson"s plan for him - to land him with a team that had many pieces already in place to ensure his success. And they did. And yes, changes in the quality of the QB can elevate an existing offense 10 ppg. That's the difference between hitting or missing on about 5 plays per game. Yes, their offenses changed to suit the QB, but I believe on KC's offense this was a matter of play distribution as Mahomes could hit and would take shots Smith couldn't and didn't, not the complete re-tool that Baltimore performed. As a case in point for how the same offense with the same personnel and some shift in play distribution can change an offenses production, I give you the 2019 Tennessee Titans. Game 1-6 with Mariota at QB: 16 ppg. Game 7 thru Championship: 29 ppg. And that's not even changing to an MVP, all-world QB, it's changing from Mariota to Tannehill. Quote 3) I will have to defer to your expertise on footwork because I see most of the same stuff I saw at Texas Tech. Please don't defer to my expertise here. It's acknowledged by the experts who follow KC that Mahomes still has room to work on his footwork, but also that it is considerably improved since he was drafted and sat and worked on it 15 games of his rookie season. That doesn't mean that the same patterns don't persist or won't recur at times. https://www.kansascity.com/sports/spt-columns-blogs/sam-mellinger/article148472974.html https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/bieniemy-early-returns-good-on-patrick-mahomes-improved-footwork/ar-AAEZRqn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penfield45 Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 are we really judging a QB off a skills competition at the pro bowl? god this forum is a joke. we have one of the most inaccurate QB's in the league we have zero room to talk 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eball Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 29 minutes ago, JohnC said: What if he is an effective one read passer and one of the best mobile and dual threat qbs in the game? Name me the "effective one read passers" who have won championships at the NFL level or experienced sustained success. Lamar Jackson and the Baltimore offense had an amazing year. He'll be the MVP. That doesn't change my opinion one bit. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BADOLBILZ Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 40 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: It is not an accurate description of any "take" that is held by the writer, and is backed up with an argument and some data (which mine was), to ascribe it to "spite" , whether or not you disagree with it. It is, in fact, massively egocentric. That you are doubling down on this speaks volumes, and poorly, about what you've become as a poster. I'm speaking as a TBD denizen here: you need to absorb the gestalt of your own posts and look in a mirror. You've become something that 5 or 10 years ago, you would have sincerely abhorred. But I digress. I do. I think that was part of his and "Mama Jackson"s plan for him - to land him with a team that had many pieces already in place to ensure his success. And they did. And yes, changes in the quality of the QB can elevate an existing offense 10 ppg. That's the difference between hitting or missing on about 5 plays per game. Yes, their offenses changed to suit the QB, but I believe on KC's offense this was a matter of play distribution as Mahomes could hit and would take shots Smith couldn't and didn't, not the complete re-tool that Baltimore performed. As a case in point for how the same offense with the same personnel and some shift in play distribution can change an offenses production, I give you the 2019 Tennessee Titans. Game 1-6 with Mariota at QB: 16 ppg. Game 7 thru Championship: 29 ppg. And that's not even changing to an MVP, all-world QB, it's changing from Mariota to Tannehill. Please don't defer to my expertise here. It's acknowledged by the experts who follow KC that Mahomes still has room to work on his footwork, but also that it is considerably improved since he was drafted and sat and worked on it 15 games of his rookie season. That doesn't mean that the same patterns don't persist or won't recur at times. https://www.kansascity.com/sports/spt-columns-blogs/sam-mellinger/article148472974.html https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/bieniemy-early-returns-good-on-patrick-mahomes-improved-footwork/ar-AAEZRqn Exactly. As to what the Bills had to offer I would suggest that Mahomes could have done worse than Sammy Watkins, LeSean McCoy and Charles Clay as a rookie in 2017. 10 starters from the 2016 offense were brought to camp in 2017.........a group that averaged 26 ppg and lead the NFL in rushing thru 16 weeks. So with your "crap OL and no run game" talk you are clearly conflating what the Bills did with Josh Allen in 2018 with what they could have done with Mahomes in 2017. Remember the quest for Josh Allen relieved the Bills of their starting LT and WR1 and they made choices in free agency of 2018 that might have been quite different if they had their franchise QB in place already going into year 2. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orlando Tim Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Fair. What criteria for ranking? Good questions- how do you rank him? Mainly wins and losses I would think but as far as individual numbers where does he rank as far as total yards/td/turnovers? Obviously not passer rating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Please don't defer to my expertise here. It's acknowledged by the experts who follow KC that Mahomes still has room to work on his footwork, but also that it is considerably improved since he was drafted and sat and worked on it 15 games of his rookie season. That doesn't mean that the same patterns don't persist or won't recur at times. https://www.kansascity.com/sports/spt-columns-blogs/sam-mellinger/article148472974.html https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/bieniemy-early-returns-good-on-patrick-mahomes-improved-footwork/ar-AAEZRqn Yea to me his footwork is much improved to when he was at Tech. It isn't textbook but it is more consistent and repeatable. My biggest issue with him coming out was that his back foot had a mind of its own and while he generally got away with it in the redzone where the windows were tighter he became less precise. I always said he didn't need clean and precise footwork he just needed it to be a little more consistent. He isn't Brady or Brees in the pocket, and he doesn't need to be. But I'd say his footwork is at least 50% improved on his final year at Texas Tech. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 11 minutes ago, Buffalo Timmy said: Good questions- how do you rank him? Mainly wins and losses I would think but as far as individual numbers where does he rank as far as total yards/td/turnovers? Obviously not passer rating. Passer rating has its just critics but it's actually simpler and better correlated to winning I think than some of the special-secret-sauce stuff. Some people here swear by ANY/A. Lamar was very good by both those metrics this year - #3 and #4. The point to be made for Jackson and other dual-threat QBs is that neither include running yards or TDs. Neither penalize fumbles. But they do provide a benchmark as to QB efficiency. It wouldn't surprise me if Jackson slides a bit by whatever metric next year but that's sort of normal when a guy has a "light your hair on fire" MVP season. I don't think W-L are a good QB rating stat. 6 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: (Mahomes) Yea to me his footwork is much improved to when he was at Tech. It isn't textbook but it is more consistent and repeatable. My biggest issue with him coming out was that his back foot had a mind of its own and while he generally got away with it in the redzone where the windows were tighter he became less precise. I always said he didn't need clean and precise footwork he just needed it to be a little more consistent. He isn't Brady or Brees in the pocket, and he doesn't need to be. But I'd say his footwork is at least 50% improved on his final year at Texas Tech. That seems to be the consensus of the media who cover Chiefs football closely (equivalents of Kubiak/Erik Turner etc here) - much improvement, still room. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mango Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Passer rating has its just critics but it's actually simpler and better correlated to winning I think than some of the special-secret-sauce stuff. Some people here swear by ANY/A. Lamar was very good by both those metrics this year - #3 and #4. The point to be made for Jackson and other dual-threat QBs is that neither include running yards or TDs. Neither penalize fumbles. But they do provide a benchmark as to QB efficiency. It wouldn't surprise me if Jackson slides a bit by whatever metric next year but that's sort of normal when a guy has a "light your hair on fire" MVP season. I don't think W-L are a good QB rating stat. That seems to be the consensus of the media who cover Chiefs football closely (equivalents of Kubiak/Erik Turner etc here) - much improvement, still room. Agreed on most of this. I would add that the legs shouldn’t be added as equal to passing. The QB needs to be a passer first and runner second. If your QB can add a wrinkle, it should help add to his ability to pass, not replace. A QB who can run for 500+ yards is awesome, but it shouldn’t be included as a replacement for passing yards, TD’s, etc. That said, in regards to Lamar, he did a good job of throwing the ball on the move to a moving target this year. I wouldn’t put much stock in a fun skills drill after a long season. Much like every athletic QB, his longevity will be dependent on is ability to throw the ball efficiently and effectively. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BADOLBILZ Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 2 hours ago, GunnerBill said: Yea to me his footwork is much improved to when he was at Tech. It isn't textbook but it is more consistent and repeatable. My biggest issue with him coming out was that his back foot had a mind of its own and while he generally got away with it in the redzone where the windows were tighter he became less precise. I always said he didn't need clean and precise footwork he just needed it to be a little more consistent. He isn't Brady or Brees in the pocket, and he doesn't need to be. But I'd say his footwork is at least 50% improved on his final year at Texas Tech. I remember you being really down on his footwork..............but I'd say about 3/4 of his throws are either off platform entirely or done with technically incorrect footwork/mechanics. He's a shortstop playing QB. I know baseball isn't really a thing in the UK but Mahomes is a great shortstop playing QB...........Josh Allen is a pitcher/right fielder playing QB.......Allen really needs his mechanics tight to create accuracy, Mahomes does not. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 3 hours ago, eball said: Name me the "effective one read passers" who have won championships at the NFL level or experienced sustained success. Lamar Jackson and the Baltimore offense had an amazing year. He'll be the MVP. That doesn't change my opinion one bit. As you noted he is probably going to be the MVP in the league. He may be a one read passer now but that doesn't mean that he won't become more proficient in making more progressive reads as he gains experience. The team that he quarterbacked was one of the best teams in the regular season. He's only in his second season so one can't say for sure whether he will have sustained success in the pro ranks. What I do know about him is in college and in his very limited pro years he has been exceptionally successful not only as an individual player but in leading his teams. Although his style is different from most qbs because he is so athletic that shouldn't be held against him because the most meaningful statistic is his teams' record. He may not be a conventional player but he is a young and winning qb who I expect to get even better. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eball Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 40 minutes ago, JohnC said: He may be a one read passer now but that doesn't mean that he won't become more proficient in making more progressive reads as he gains experience Well, since my whole premise is that I don’t think he will do that I think we just have a fundamental difference of opinion, which is fine. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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