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Mutual Admiration Society: Daboll and Allen

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https://buffalonews.com/2020/01/09/josh-allen-buffalo-bills-brian-daboll-analysis-completion-percentage-accuracy-news-2020/

 

Bills offensive coordinator Brian Daboll has no hesitation about where he comes down. ...." “Just overall improvement is what I like,” Daboll told The Buffalo News after the final game of the regular season. “He’s very level headed. I appreciate really everything about him, how he comes to work. I appreciate his professionalism, his accountability, how he deals with the entire organization from the top down. And how he is off the field. I have a lot of respect for him as a young player and how he approaches the job.”

Most interesting segment to me was some gouge on the way the Bills design the passing game:

Like most second-year quarterbacks, Allen still is in a developmental stage in terms of reading defenses. He missed open plays in the Houston wild-card game. At times against man coverage, which the Bills saw more of as the season wore on, Allen takes too long to get off his first read.
 

Daboll said Allen will have a natural progression on getting to his secondary routes better.
 

“It’s time on task,” Daboll said. “We have a variety of option routes in the game plan. It’s about body language and time on task with throws and anticipation and reps.  “When you have an option route with the quarterback, you have to be so in tune with the body language of the receiver because there’s different types of routes,” Daboll said.

“When you have option routes, it’s the receiver’s decision. So the throw and timing is not going to be just like that,” he said, snapping his fingers. “Versus you want to run a curl route. You know where he’s going to be at 12 yards or 14 yards or 16 yards. He’s going to be on the inside edge of the numbers, he’s going to be 3 yards from the sideline, or he’s going to be 2 yards inside the numbers and you can let it rip.

“When you have players who have short-space quickness, like Cole (Beasley), Motor (Devin Singletary), guys like that, you’re relying on their eyes and how they see it. That’s how it works.”

“He’s an instinctive player but he’s also a smart player,” Daboll said. “He has a good feel for defenses. He has a good feel for in-game adjustments and the things that happen within the game that he sees. It’s all stuff we continue to work on. I’ve said it numerous times, I’m very happy with his progress.”

 

Both after the Houston game and in his end of season presser, Allen expressed strong admiration for Daboll.  It sounds like it's mutual.

 

 

 

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My biggest takeaway: Sounds like Daboll's scheme and the option routes is the main reason why Josh tended to hold the ball too long and not throw to spots with timing. Either that improves as he and the WRs become more familiar, or they'll have to change the scheme. Good to hear that is isnt a definite that it was simply Josh being scared to throw.

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4 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

My biggest takeaway: Sounds like Daboll's scheme and the option routes is the main reason why Josh tended to hold the ball too long and not throw to spots with timing. Either that improves as he and the WRs become more familiar, or they'll have to change the scheme. Good to hear that is isnt a definite that it was simply Josh being scared to throw.

 

The problem I see is that Allen needs schemed routes that are fast developing with guys who are open fast, to counteract all the blitzing we're seeing from the best Ds.

 

 

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Just now, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

The problem I see is that Allen needs schemed routes that are fast developing with guys who are open fast, to counteract all the blitzing we're seeing from the best Ds.

 

 

 

That too. Lots of problems with this scheme if the goal is to put a raw, project QB in the best position to succeed.

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Option routes are more of a run and shoot concept right? Beasley must have pushed to have those installed in the offense.

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1 minute ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

The problem I see is that Allen needs schemed routes that are fast developing with guys who are open fast, to counteract all the blitzing we're seeing from the best Ds.

 

 

The good news is if Allen masters this which is a big ask of any young guy, he will be an extremely cerebral quarterback to pair with his jaw dropping talent. His quick reads and dump off game should improve with more personnel? Maybe. 

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29 minutes ago, Mrbojanglezs said:

Option routes are more of a run and shoot concept right? Beasley must have pushed to have those installed in the offense.

is'nt that a part of the erhardt perkins offense

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2 minutes ago, tcampbell104 said:

is'nt that a part of the erhardt perkins offense

 

Erhardt Perkins, from what I understand, has less to do with the actual offensive concepts and more to do with how the plays are called (Verbiage). 

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What Daboll should be saying is, "Josh had some difficulties with x, y, and z. So I'm helping him succeed by scheming a, b, and c."

 

Instead, he's saying, "Josh had these problems with my offense... but he'll figure it out."

 

Maybe I'm reading into this too much.

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39 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

The problem I see is that Allen needs schemed routes that are fast developing with guys who are open fast, to counteract all the blitzing we're seeing from the best Ds.

 

 

Yes - make use of his arm and let him rip it on schemed/timed routes more vs dealing with all the variables for option routes

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1 minute ago, Mrbojanglezs said:

 

Erhardt Perkins, from what I understand, has less to do with the actual offensive concepts and more to do with how the plays are called (Verbiage). 

i thought it was a concept where the receiver would look at the defense and run a route accordingly, the qb would see hopefully the same thing and a lot of success comes from it. that is why ocho cinco was a bust in new england he could only run the route called.

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5 minutes ago, somnus00 said:

What Daboll should be saying is, "Josh had some difficulties with x, y, and z. So I'm helping him succeed by scheming a, b, and c."

 

Instead, he's saying, "Josh had these problems with my offense... but he'll figure it out."

 

Maybe I'm reading into this too much.

It’s a bit of both. I think they decided to throw Allen in the deep end this year with the assumption that it’d all come together with playing time and more talent. They learned they were a little too optimistic about it this year, but Allen is primed to improve again next season. 

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48 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

https://buffalonews.com/2020/01/09/josh-allen-buffalo-bills-brian-daboll-analysis-completion-percentage-accuracy-news-2020/

 

Bills offensive coordinator Brian Daboll has no hesitation about where he comes down. ...." “Just overall improvement is what I like,” Daboll told The Buffalo News after the final game of the regular season. “He’s very level headed. I appreciate really everything about him, how he comes to work. I appreciate his professionalism, his accountability, how he deals with the entire organization from the top down. And how he is off the field. I have a lot of respect for him as a young player and how he approaches the job.”

Most interesting segment to me was some gouge on the way the Bills design the passing game:

Like most second-year quarterbacks, Allen still is in a developmental stage in terms of reading defenses. He missed open plays in the Houston wild-card game. At times against man coverage, which the Bills saw more of as the season wore on, Allen takes too long to get off his first read.
 

Daboll said Allen will have a natural progression on getting to his secondary routes better.
 

“It’s time on task,” Daboll said. “We have a variety of option routes in the game plan. It’s about body language and time on task with throws and anticipation and reps.  “When you have an option route with the quarterback, you have to be so in tune with the body language of the receiver because there’s different types of routes,” Daboll said.

When you have option routes, it’s the receiver’s decision. So the throw and timing is not going to be just like that,” he said, snapping his fingers. “Versus you want to run a curl route. You know where he’s going to be at 12 yards or 14 yards or 16 yards. He’s going to be on the inside edge of the numbers, he’s going to be 3 yards from the sideline, or he’s going to be 2 yards inside the numbers and you can let it rip.

“When you have players who have short-space quickness, like Cole (Beasley), Motor (Devin Singletary), guys like that, you’re relying on their eyes and how they see it. That’s how it works.”

“He’s an instinctive player but he’s also a smart player,” Daboll said. “He has a good feel for defenses. He has a good feel for in-game adjustments and the things that happen within the game that he sees. It’s all stuff we continue to work on. I’ve said it numerous times, I’m very happy with his progress.”

 

Both after the Houston game and in his end of season presser, Allen expressed strong admiration for Daboll.  It sounds like it's mutual.

 

 

 


Note to @ngbills ... Daboll hinting about precision depth and horizontal location in route definition and options as well as who decides the option 

 

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1 hour ago, Mrbojanglezs said:

Option routes are more of a run and shoot concept right? Beasley must have pushed to have those installed in the offense.

 

I think it's possible Josh Allen was intrigued by them as well, after talking to Jim Kelly.  The problem is that we haven't always had the OL to support them.

When we have, as in the Dallas game, it's been great.  When we have Ford and Feliciano tripping on each other's feet and Knox getting taken out, as happened in both Cleveland and Ravens games, then it looks like Allen is bailing out and running around aimlessly before heaving it away.

 

44 minutes ago, somnus00 said:

What Daboll should be saying is, "Josh had some difficulties with x, y, and z. So I'm helping him succeed by scheming a, b, and c."

 

Why on earth should he say that?

 

 

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56 minutes ago, Mrbojanglezs said:

Erhardt Perkins, from what I understand, has less to do with the actual offensive concepts and more to do with how the plays are called (Verbiage). 

 

Both, I think.  The EP playbook as run in NE and by the NYG and Chan Gailey all have route variations where the QB and the WR both read the defense pre-snap and again post snap and sometimes yet again as the play develops vs. WCO timing routes "run this precise route timed to the QB dropping this many steps then throwing and you better be there". 

 

I don't think the complexity is intrinsic to the EP system which, as you point out, at its heart is about nomenclature.  But the NE/NYG lineage of EP is apparently very complex.

 

They both have advantages and disadvantages for young QB but it's notable that some WR and QB struggle more in one system than another.  McDaniel's system seemed to make Sam Bradford's head explode while he did OK the previous year under Shurmur.  Ditto for Daboll's system and AJ McCarron.  Josh Rosen was reportedly  at sea with Chad O'Shea (NE guy)'s system as well like "WTF?"

 

I haven't seen it mentioned and I don't know if it's a factor, but we do know that AJ McCarron (who got exposure to Daboll's playbook) surfaced as the backup QB in Houston?  That may have played into the game somehow.

 

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It sounds like he's coming back too so it's good their relationship is on such solid footing. I suppose even if it doesn't work out and we wind up going run/play action down the road with less option route stuff, Josh will still be better off for it. Daboll has learned from the best.   

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9 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

https://buffalonews.com/2020/01/09/josh-allen-buffalo-bills-brian-daboll-analysis-completion-percentage-accuracy-news-2020/

 

Bills offensive coordinator Brian Daboll has no hesitation about where he comes down. ...." “Just overall improvement is what I like,” Daboll told The Buffalo News after the final game of the regular season. “He’s very level headed. I appreciate really everything about him, how he comes to work. I appreciate his professionalism, his accountability, how he deals with the entire organization from the top down. And how he is off the field. I have a lot of respect for him as a young player and how he approaches the job.”

Most interesting segment to me was some gouge on the way the Bills design the passing game:

Like most second-year quarterbacks, Allen still is in a developmental stage in terms of reading defenses. He missed open plays in the Houston wild-card game. At times against man coverage, which the Bills saw more of as the season wore on, Allen takes too long to get off his first read.
 

Daboll said Allen will have a natural progression on getting to his secondary routes better.
 

“It’s time on task,” Daboll said. “We have a variety of option routes in the game plan. It’s about body language and time on task with throws and anticipation and reps.  “When you have an option route with the quarterback, you have to be so in tune with the body language of the receiver because there’s different types of routes,” Daboll said.

“When you have option routes, it’s the receiver’s decision. So the throw and timing is not going to be just like that,” he said, snapping his fingers. “Versus you want to run a curl route. You know where he’s going to be at 12 yards or 14 yards or 16 yards. He’s going to be on the inside edge of the numbers, he’s going to be 3 yards from the sideline, or he’s going to be 2 yards inside the numbers and you can let it rip.

“When you have players who have short-space quickness, like Cole (Beasley), Motor (Devin Singletary), guys like that, you’re relying on their eyes and how they see it. That’s how it works.”

“He’s an instinctive player but he’s also a smart player,” Daboll said. “He has a good feel for defenses. He has a good feel for in-game adjustments and the things that happen within the game that he sees. It’s all stuff we continue to work on. I’ve said it numerous times, I’m very happy with his progress.”

 

Both after the Houston game and in his end of season presser, Allen expressed strong admiration for Daboll.  It sounds like it's mutual.

 

 

 

Moral of the story is your offense Dumbell is way too complex and routes take way too long to develop.  Ask John Brown. This is not the way to develop a young qb. Daboll doesn't even have hot reads embedded when blitzes attack Josh.

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13 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I think it's possible Josh Allen was intrigued by them as well, after talking to Jim Kelly.  The problem is that we haven't always had the OL to support them.

When we have, as in the Dallas game, it's been great.  When we have Ford and Feliciano tripping on each other's feet and Knox getting taken out, as happened in both Cleveland and Ravens games, then it looks like Allen is bailing out and running around aimlessly before heaving it away.

 

 

I think it was a bit too much to ask of Allen this year to be quick enough to reach those 2nd and 3rd options on longer developing plays when he was under pressure. It is no coincidence that Allen was blitzed the 2nd most of any QB in the league (particularly by good defenses down the stretch). This is a kid who could never trust his offensive line at Wyoming and last year with the Bills. Far too often, he wouldn't have the opportunity to set up and go through progressions. That lack of trust carried over into plays where he actually did have the time. You could see, at Wyoming and last year, Allen failing to stay in the pocket, to step up in the pocket, to maintain proper mechanics at the slightest perception of pressure.

 

This year has been better. He learned to trust his Oline more and he was doing a better job staying in the pocket and getting through his reads. When his Oline was playing well, his movement in the pocket was more confident, his mechanics were better, and his play was more instinctual.

 

However, the Oline was not very consistent in handling blitzes and pressure in that first NE game and since the Dallas game. There were a number of young players (i.e; Ford, Knox, Singletary) that were playing, well, like young players and making mistakes in pass blocking. In every one of those games, you saw plays in which Allen literally was getting hammered by defenders before he could even get through his first read. In those games, you could see and feel Allen losing his trust in his Oline and reverting to what was natural for him at Wyoming and last year: bailing out of the pocket too quickly, holding onto the ball too long while trying to keep the play alive with his feet, failing to make the decision quickly enough to run, pass, or throw the ball away. This is when Allen does what he always felt he needed to do, prior to this year: put the team on his back. This is also when he is most prone to, what people love to refer to as, "hero ball," and when he is most susceptible to mistakes.

 

I am not a Daboll hater. I think he is an exceptionally bright man and can be very creative in play design. However, I think there were games in which he completely failed to adjust his play calling to give his young QB a chance to settle down and reestablish that trust through quicker developing plays. 

 

I am hoping they pick up a solid RT in the off-season and move Ford to G - or, Ford improves if they leave him at RT. I also hope Allen takes that next progression in terms of reading defenses better and making quicker decisions. But, most of all, I hope Allen finally allows himself to still trust his line even when they give up bad plays here and there.

Edited by billsfan1959

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22 hours ago, somnus00 said:

What Daboll should be saying is, "Josh had some difficulties with x, y, and z. So I'm helping him succeed by scheming a, b, and c."

 

Instead, he's saying, "Josh had these problems with my offense... but he'll figure it out."

 

Maybe I'm reading into this too much.

 

This is such a bassackwards approach.  IMHO.  And we are seeing the results. Bottom 1/3 of the league offenses 2 years running in the Daboll era.

 

It's nice they each other. Too bad their offense stinks.

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Continuity is hugely important to Josh's development.  As frustrating as some of Daboll's decisions have been (8 🤬 carries for Gore?!?), we need him to stay.

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I mean, what he is going to say?  I’m sure Daboll is a great guy and knows football.  But he has been a bottom OC his whole NFL career. Allen definitely played a part in this as well.  He’s not getting the browns job and you can’t fire him but he is the definition of settling.  I would love to see a young offensive mind who would spread the field with receivers and TEs and use Allen like Cam.  I think Daboll tries to make him into a Brady type.

15 minutes ago, KD in CA said:

Continuity is hugely important to Josh's development.  As frustrating as some of Daboll's decisions have been (8 🤬 carries for Gore?!?), we need him to stay.

I completely understand this point but what really is the ceiling with a Daboll offense?  https://www.pro-football-reference.com/coaches/DaboBr0.htm

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i would like to see a ground game coordinator plugged in along with possibly a new Oline coach. too many times this year we just looked lost in the run game. especially when we needed to run the ball and impose our will, we couldn't really do it. let Daboll continue to coordinate the offense but have the specialist devise the ground attack. maybe then we will be able to develop an identity.

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I guess mutual admiration is better than QB and OC scheming to get rid of each other.  Josh is the one who is throwing bomb of course.

 

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