Hapless Bills Fan Posted January 3, 2020 Author Share Posted January 3, 2020 17 minutes ago, Ethan in Portland said: It’s apparent they don’t see value in Duke Williams as a WR. Therefore if you are going to make Foster and McKenzie active even for a few snaps at WR then it makes sense to get some special teams play out of them. I don't think that's true. I think they do see value in Duke Williams or he wouldn't be on the roster - why should he be? They'd toss him back in the pond and go fishing for someone else. It's not as though there aren't plenty of guys on other team's practice squads etc. McKenzie has played 0% of the ST snaps in 10 games this year, while playing between 25% and 77% of the snaps at WR. He saw ST snaps in the first two games, and then in the Titans game when Foster was inactive in favor of Williams, so it's not like they haven't given him a shot. Apparently they disagree with you and feel it does not make sense to get some special teams play out of him, except for Game 17 when Dre was inactive. You have a point about Peterman. I got nothin', except I hope McDermott and Daboll learned a valuable lesson about extrapolating from practice and preseason into actual games. 1 hour ago, Don Otreply said: STs in the rented mule of all NFL teams, in which they fall behind both offense and defense in priority as it should be, it is especially important that it be so when a given teams offense struggles to score TDs. Resources need then to be given to said offense. Only when the two most important phases of the game, O & D are performing optimally should a given team put additional resources into STs.. it is not that STs holds no importance, but rather the other two phases are far more important... It seemed to me the Bills had a coach once who saw it rather differently. He said something like "There's three parts to football: offense, defense, and special teams. You'd no more ignore special teams than you would offense or defense." I guess he probably didn't know too much about putting together an enduring competitive team since I don't see anything about only resourcing ST when the offense and defense are performing optimally.... Oh, Wait Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
row_33 Posted January 3, 2020 Share Posted January 3, 2020 Yes the Bills ST have been invisible aside from that pro bowl punter for 20 years Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livinginthepast Posted January 3, 2020 Share Posted January 3, 2020 The whole Foster is useful on ST's bit I can somewhat agree with it but in the end how does that trump the Duke Williams as a better WR idea? Foster may be decent at covering kicks but as a whole our ST's have given up a few big returns and had several breakdowns in punt protection that have resulted in negative plays. If we were a top ST's unit with no returns for TDs, and no blocks etc or if Foster was a great return man and had some TDs that swung the game in our favor I could get behind that. But to be honest his effect on the game being on the ST's in negligible. I think Duke has a far greater potential upside than Foster and most importantly would have had a much bigger effect in some of the games we lost this year had he been played. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmotionallyUnstable Posted January 3, 2020 Share Posted January 3, 2020 Just kick the ball through the back of the EZ. Problem solved Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted January 3, 2020 Author Share Posted January 3, 2020 28 minutes ago, EmotionallyUnstable said: Just kick the ball through the back of the EZ. Problem solved From your mouth to Haushka's ears. But it's just not going down that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted January 3, 2020 Share Posted January 3, 2020 4 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Listen to yourself. "Routine play for any gunner" Correct. Foster is the gunner. That's the point. Foster is the gunner because he cemented his role as the best choice for the position. Who is the alternative? Hint: if "just a back up safety or DB" were a better gunner than Foster, they'd have replaced him as gunner. Condescending and barely meaningful. Well played. yea, it wasn’t a particularly great play. And you’d hope that most gunners would be able to make it - if not by athleticism then by better discipline. Sure they have decided to give him the job but I’m not sure that cements him as the best on the entire 53 or that any substantial margin exists to the next option. oh, and ignoring foster himself, special teams is far from a third of the game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LABILLBACKER Posted January 3, 2020 Share Posted January 3, 2020 47 minutes ago, Livinginthepast said: The whole Foster is useful on ST's bit I can somewhat agree with it but in the end how does that trump the Duke Williams as a better WR idea? Foster may be decent at covering kicks but as a whole our ST's have given up a few big returns and had several breakdowns in punt protection that have resulted in negative plays. If we were a top ST's unit with no returns for TDs, and no blocks etc or if Foster was a great return man and had some TDs that swung the game in our favor I could get behind that. But to be honest his effect on the game being on the ST's in negligible. I think Duke has a far greater potential upside than Foster and most importantly would have had a much bigger effect in some of the games we lost this year had he been played. Amen. We'll never know Duke's true impact to this team if he was allowed to play a full 16 season. But I have a sneaking suspicion it would've greatly outweighed a couple of cool gunner runs that resulted in zero points. Foster has done nothing to improve this 24th ranked offense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Otreply Posted January 3, 2020 Share Posted January 3, 2020 15 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: I don't think that's true. I think they do see value in Duke Williams or he wouldn't be on the roster - why should he be? They'd toss him back in the pond and go fishing for someone else. It's not as though there aren't plenty of guys on other team's practice squads etc. McKenzie has played 0% of the ST snaps in 10 games this year, while playing between 25% and 77% of the snaps at WR. He saw ST snaps in the first two games, and then in the Titans game when Foster was inactive in favor of Williams, so it's not like they haven't given him a shot. Apparently they disagree with you and feel it does not make sense to get some special teams play out of him, except for Game 17 when Dre was inactive. You have a point about Peterman. I got nothin', except I hope McDermott and Daboll learned a valuable lesson about extrapolating from practice and preseason into actual games. It seemed to me the Bills had a coach once who saw it rather differently. He said something like "There's three parts to football: offense, defense, and special teams. You'd no more ignore special teams than you would offense or defense." I guess he probably didn't know too much about putting together an enduring competitive team since I don't see anything about only resourcing ST when the offense and defense are performing optimally.... Oh, Wait Context,.. , HCs accept middling STs play and live with it, we all know this, but they will lose their sh-t when the O or D stinks it up, and bust their azses to to improve their Offense and defense, and pour large resources into both, not so with special teams, STs players are way down the pay scale comparatively, showing a lower priority, so no STs are not held in the same light as the other two phases, no matter the coach speak, run and stop the run, the game is won and lost in the trenches, we all know the sayings, there are no such sayings about special teams. Jmo, ? Go Bills!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LABILLBACKER Posted January 3, 2020 Share Posted January 3, 2020 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Don Otreply said: Context,.. , HCs accept middling STs play and live with it, we all know this, but they will lose their sh-t when the O or D stinks it up, and bust their azses to to improve their Offense and defense, and pour large resources into both, not so with special teams, STs players are way down the pay scale comparatively, showing a lower priority, so no STs are not held in the same light as the other two phases, no matter the coach speak, run and stop the run, the game is won and lost in the trenches, we all know the sayings, there are no such sayings about special teams. Jmo, ? Go Bills!!! Nobody gives a rat's ass about ST anymore, other that Hauschka keep making kicks. Robert Foster...active 13 games, 18 targets, 3 catches, catch % 16.7, 64 yds, 0 tds. Duke Williams...active 4 games, 19 targets, 12 catches, catch% 63.2, 166 yds, 1 td. You do the math Hap...... Edited January 3, 2020 by LABILLBACKER Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IgotBILLStopay Posted January 3, 2020 Share Posted January 3, 2020 8 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: I thought it might be interesting to take a look at the invisible third of the team (until it's not, usually in a Bad Way): Special Teams Here is the Bills 2nd kickoff in the Pats game. The ball is just fielded, at the 5 yd line. Foster is L5 (top of the picture on about the 40), one of the Gunners. Bolden, who has fielded the ball at the 5, is a top-10 returner this year. The returner, about the 15 yd line near the numbers, looks at the gnarly mess in front of him and decides he'd like to see if he can cross and take the ball up the opposite sideline. That's Foster in between the hashes, putting on the brakes and keeping clean of blockers. Bolden comes uncomfortably close to breaking one. Bills jockstraps can be seen all over the field. Corey Thompson gets off his block late and is beat. #38 (Bolden) can smell "Big Yards return, with a chance for Endzone". Kevin Johnson, at the 28 and Poyer, on the 0 at the 30, are gonna try to mess up his chance and calculating their angles. Foster has one foot on the 25 yd line......wait! That dawg FAST. He runs Bolden down from behind, wraps him up and "Say Goodnight, Gracie!" Even if Foster didn't complete, he hangs on long enough to give Poyer and Johnson a great chance to get in position But Foster comes through. Good tackling. Bolden down at the 24 yd line. Spot at the 25 ? End scene with Bolden seated on the ground going Damn! and the Bills with at least no worse field position than if it were a touchback. We can say all sorts of other things about this kickoff and the coverage. But It Is what It Is right now. I hope this helps illustrate how Foster is contributing on ST, why the coaches as a whole think it benefits the team to have Foster out there on ST, and why that viewpoint isn't "stubborn" or "stupid" or some of the other stuff that's been said. I am as big a fan of Duke as there is, but Foster has been a pretty decent gunner on ST for the Bills. I would rather Duke replace Lee Smith than Foster. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmotionallyUnstable Posted January 3, 2020 Share Posted January 3, 2020 8 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: From your mouth to Haushka's ears. But it's just not going down that way. and why is that? there HAS to be some rhyme or rhythm to it or some analytics to support it... My thoughts on it are as follows: they have a top ranked, dominant defense. I’d take the opponent with the ball at the their own 25 every single time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaos Posted January 3, 2020 Share Posted January 3, 2020 12 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Listen to yourself. "Routine play for any gunner" Correct. Foster is the gunner. That's the point. Foster is the gunner because he cemented his role as the best choice for the position. Who is the alternative? Hint: if "just a back up safety or DB" were a better gunner than Foster, they'd have replaced him as gunner. A replacement gunner only needs to be adequate, not "better", if the change upgrades the offense in a meaningful way. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted January 3, 2020 Share Posted January 3, 2020 our coaching staff has shown to be very very conservative in removing or putting in new and especially young players. they were way too slow to start josh in his first year, too slow to feature motor this year, too slow to keep smith off the field more, etc. in the longest of long terms i understand the wisdom of this strategy, but we aren't minimizing bad things at this point, we are aiming to win in the playoffs and the super bowl. we really need to "play fearless" now. duke and yeldon need some burn, maybe even sweeny too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Turk Posted January 3, 2020 Share Posted January 3, 2020 (edited) 15 hours ago, Reks Ryan said: Special teams always tilts 1 or 2 NFL playoff games each year. And not just made or missed FGs. On paper the Bills and Texans O's vs D's are pretty even match ups. So ST could be the difference. Yesterday, Someone posted the full game of a previous Buffalo vs Houston playoff game from New Years Day 1989. The Bills won that game on special teams. A blocked punt set-up their first TD, also had a blocked FG and the Oilers missed another FG influenced by pressure. The Bills also had outstanding kick coverage, plus they had a couple nice punt returns. 17 - 10 Bills victory. And we all know they have lost at least 1 playoff game on a last second Special Teams screw up. When is the last time the Bills blocked a punt or a FG where it didn't just change the direction of the kick but actually rejected it backwards? Seemed like Tasker made a living of doing that every 4 or 5 games when he was playing for a while Edited January 3, 2020 by matter2003 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddogblitz Posted January 3, 2020 Share Posted January 3, 2020 (edited) 16 hours ago, LABILLBACKER said: Nobody gives a rat's ass about ST anymore, Bill Bellyache does. A blocked punt in game 1 vs us is probably the difference between us playing on the road tomorrow vs at The Ralph. Edited January 3, 2020 by reddogblitz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfan89 Posted January 3, 2020 Share Posted January 3, 2020 The Special Teams unit outside of the kicker and punter have been mostly good. They don't give up many big returns and they haven't had many game breaking mistakes (the blocked punt being the only major one.) Roberts has stabilized the return game being one of the better punt returners in the league (dude always seem to put in one or two 8-15 yard punt returns each game and I can't think of him ever muffing a kick) even if his kick return game is ineffective most of the time. However Haush and Bojo have both been very inconsistent. Haush has seemed to stabilize things recently and Bojo ended the season fairly strong. But both are a little shaky. Hopefully they don't cost us the game. I think going into next season the team needs to bring in a punter and kicker to compete with Haush and Bojo during camp. When you are trying to build a contender you need ever edge of the roster to be strong, no stone unturned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cripple Creek Posted January 3, 2020 Share Posted January 3, 2020 23 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: I thought it might be interesting to take a look at the invisible third of the team (until it's not, usually in a Bad Way): Special Teams Here is the Bills 2nd kickoff in the Pats game. The ball is just fielded, at the 5 yd line. Foster is L5 (top of the picture on about the 40), one of the Gunners. Bolden, who has fielded the ball at the 5, is a top-10 returner this year. The returner, about the 15 yd line near the numbers, looks at the gnarly mess in front of him and decides he'd like to see if he can cross and take the ball up the opposite sideline. That's Foster in between the hashes, putting on the brakes and keeping clean of blockers. Bolden comes uncomfortably close to breaking one. Bills jockstraps can be seen all over the field. Corey Thompson gets off his block late and is beat. #38 (Bolden) can smell "Big Yards return, with a chance for Endzone". Kevin Johnson, at the 28 and Poyer, on the 0 at the 30, are gonna try to mess up his chance and calculating their angles. Foster has one foot on the 25 yd line......wait! That dawg FAST. He runs Bolden down from behind, wraps him up and "Say Goodnight, Gracie!" Even if Foster didn't complete, he hangs on long enough to give Poyer and Johnson a great chance to get in position But Foster comes through. Good tackling. Bolden down at the 24 yd line. Spot at the 25 ? End scene with Bolden seated on the ground going Damn! and the Bills with at least no worse field position than if it were a touchback. We can say all sorts of other things about this kickoff and the coverage. But It Is what It Is right now. I hope this helps illustrate how Foster is contributing on ST, why the coaches as a whole think it benefits the team to have Foster out there on ST, and why that viewpoint isn't "stubborn" or "stupid" or some of the other stuff that's been said. Having Foster active isn’t mutually exclusive to making another active. Pick your least favorite Bill, everyone. Make him inactive. What is the result? McDermott’s unwillingness to break the mold prohibits him from making all WRs active on game day. Just something we have to live with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted January 3, 2020 Author Share Posted January 3, 2020 16 minutes ago, Cripple Creek said: Having Foster active isn’t mutually exclusive to making another active. Pick your least favorite Bill, everyone. Make him inactive. What is the result? McDermott’s unwillingness to break the mold prohibits him from making all WRs active on game day. Just something we have to live with. I understand your POV, Creek, but look at the gameday roster against (say) NE. Pick who you want to make inactive. Then ask what happens if a starter at that position or two starters go down. Because there's a lot interconnected, and some of the guys I'd look at scratching, are also valued on ST apparently (DiMarco, for example). I'm not saying we couldn't make different choices, I'm just saying it's not as simple as "pick your least favorite Bill", there is a "contingency plan" issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cripple Creek Posted January 3, 2020 Share Posted January 3, 2020 14 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: I understand your POV, Creek, but look at the gameday roster against (say) NE. Pick who you want to make inactive. Then ask what happens if a starter at that position or two starters go down. Because there's a lot interconnected, and some of the guys I'd look at scratching, are also valued on ST apparently (DiMarco, for example). I'm not saying we couldn't make different choices, I'm just saying it's not as simple as "pick your least favorite Bill", there is a "contingency plan" issue. I won’t argue your points. To me though it’s more important, on an offensively challenged team, to have every option open. The intractable McD just cannot break the mold though. We will score enough tomorrow, irregardless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ganesh Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 On 1/3/2020 at 10:15 AM, LABILLBACKER said: Nobody gives a rat's ass about ST anymore, other that Hauschka keep making kicks. Robert Foster...active 13 games, 18 targets, 3 catches, catch % 16.7, 64 yds, 0 tds. Duke Williams...active 4 games, 19 targets, 12 catches, catch% 63.2, 166 yds, 1 td. You do the math Hap...... Don't agree with first comment. We lost the first game against Patriots due to a ST blunder (or a clever trick by the Patriots). We allowed the Miami ST player to run roughshod over us and almost cost us the game 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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