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MJS

Daboll's Forward Handoff: Spreading throughout the league?

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I was watching the Texans vs Chiefs highlights and recognized a play. It's the same play (or very similar) to the one Brian Daboll has been using with great success in games this year. It's the little forward handoff / pass to Isaiah McKenzie that went for big yards. Not sure what to call the play. It's basically a hand off but counts as a forward pass. We've used this play other times throughout the season and it usually goes for good yardage.

 

The Texans use the same play at 4:44 in the below video (you'll probably have to click through the link to Youtube since the NFL restricts their content):

 

 

The outcome was not favorable for the Texans, but it is obviously a very similar play to what the Bills use. This is probably a play that does not originate with Daboll, but perhaps his success using it has caused other teams to use it more. Here's Daboll calling the same play against the Titans (at 7:44 in the video):

 

 

Very similar alignment. The Bills use an extra receiver as a blocker while the Texans use an extra linemen (or perhaps TE) on the line to block. I wonder if this is taken straight out of the Patriot's playbook since both the Bills and the Texans have coaches that used to be in New England, although off the top of my head I don't remember the Patriots using this (they definitely could have, though).

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It's called a shovel pass... It counts as a forward pass which is beneficial cause if it's mishandled it's not a fumble, whereas a handoff on a sweep is tricky. 

 

The chiefs ran this a ton last year which accounted for several of Mahomes td "passes"

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Been around for a while, seems like Jets Sweeps are in vogue right now so you are seeing a lot of it...trys to reduce turnovers, if the QB "throws" the ball forward and the back misses it it is not a fumble but an incompletion.

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1 minute ago, whatdrought said:

It's called a shovel pass... It counts as a forward pass which is beneficial cause if it's mishandled it's not a fumble, whereas a handoff on a sweep is tricky. 

 

The chiefs ran this a ton last year which accounted for several of Mahomes td "passes"

 

There's the word, although shovel passes usually flip the ball more forward past the line of scrimmage.

1 minute ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

Been around for a while, seems like Jets Sweeps are in vogue right now so you are seeing a lot of it...trys to reduce turnovers, if the QB "throws" the ball forward and the back misses it it is not a fumble but an incompletion.

A traditional jet sweep throws the ball backwards though, not forward, and does not count as a pass.

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There is this thing the Bills do where the Center hikes the ball to the QB kind of like a punt. I watched a few games yesterday and think other teams are copying the Bills on that too. 

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1 minute ago, MJS said:

 

There's the word, although shovel passes usually flip the ball more forward past the line of scrimmage.

A traditional jet sweep throws the ball backwards though, not forward, and does not count as a pass.

 

May actually have a different name, but I've heard it called this many times. 

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I havent seen anything from Daboll I would credit him for inventing, thats a tall order for ANY coordinator to do at this point in NFL history, however he is very creative in certain aspects of the playbook and knows how to play to the strengths of roster.

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1 minute ago, whatdrought said:

May actually have a different name, but I've heard it called this many times. 

 

I wasn't aware of the Chiefs using it a lot last year, though. It's probably a product of other teams copying the Chiefs more than the Bills, then.

Just now, StHustle said:

I havent seen anything from Daboll I would credit him for inventing, thats a tall order for ANY coordinator to do at this point in NFL history, however he is very creative in certain aspects of the playbook and knows how to play to the strengths of roster.

Yes, and I stated that in the OP. Surely Daboll is not inventing anything. However, when coaches start using a play and have success with it, other teams will start going to that play more often too. You see that a lot. Nothing new, but frequency increases. Every time Daboll has called up this play it has been successful (I think).

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Other teams were doing it first. The other reason its become so popular is it gets the wr going towards the los quickly where as behind the los it takes forever to develop sometimes

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the 90's Bills ran something similar towards the end of their run that sticks out to me, but mostly because it flat out usually didn't work at the time and I would always be frustrated when they called it. But hey, if modern D's aren't prepared for it, carry on Dabs until they prove they can stop us!  :D

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Just now, NoHuddleKelly12 said:

the 90's Bills ran something similar towards the end of their run that sticks out to me, but mostly because it flat out usually didn't work at the time and I would always be frustrated when they called it. But hey, if modern D's aren't prepared for it, carry on Dabs until they prove they can stop us!  :D

 

This play seems to hinge on having a quick gadget guy like Isaiah McKenzie. His speed to the edge is imperative in the play succeeding.

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Just now, C.Biscuit97 said:

It’s called the QB stat padder.

 

We could probably say that for any screen pass, slant, dump off.  Plus they have worked this year for the Bills...probably more of the reason why they do them...rather than just stat padding.

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6 minutes ago, MJS said:

 

There's the word, although shovel passes usually flip the ball more forward past the line of scrimmage.

A traditional jet sweep throws the ball backwards though, not forward, and does not count as a pass.

 

 

Not sure what you mean by traditional but I am going to disagree.

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6 minutes ago, MJS said:

 

This play seems to hinge on having a quick gadget guy like Isaiah McKenzie. His speed to the edge is imperative in the play succeeding.

Good observation--Thurm did not have that kind of breakaway speed, especially later in his career when the Bills were trying this out, IIRC. 

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1 minute ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

It’s called the QB stat padder.

 

Called that especially by those who do not like QB.  Maybe a few others but very few,

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5 minutes ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

Not sure what you mean by traditional but I am going to disagree.

Jet sweep is a running play, not a passing play. It is a hand off or a toss backward.

 

EDIT: Ah, I found out the name. Fly Sweep:

 

The Fly Sweep is a combination of both plays in one (Sweep and Jet Sweep). It is similar to the toss in that the RB can read and look to cut up upfield at any point where the defense overreacts. It is also similar to the Jet in that it involves a motion before the snap. The speed of the motion is kept at about 80% instead of all out. Sweep and Jet Sweep are both running plays though, whereas the Fly Sweep counts as a pass play because the ball travels forward slightly.

 

In the Fly Sweep, the running back will come back in an orbit motion from a wing alignment. Wing alignments are usually about a one yard back by one yard outside the widest lineman.

 

Oklahoma-Jet-Sweep.gif

Edited by MJS
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And here I thought the ‘jet sweep’ is where the usher wakes up the guy in the jet hat at MetLife Stadium, and says “We lost another one.  Go home”.

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12 minutes ago, BillsSbSoon said:

Other teams were doing it first. The other reason its become so popular is it gets the wr going towards the los quickly where as behind the los it takes forever to develop sometimes

Much of the modern passing game ( and a big reason for inflated stats) is about getting the ball out of  the QBs hands quickly and into the hands of a speedy skill position player. The longer the QB holds the ball, the bigger the risk. It’s a good creative use of a play by Daboll, but it’s not new either. So far, I’m pretty happy with Dabolls ideas and calls this year. 

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It seems like every game I watch they are running that play. 

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2 minutes ago, ALLEN1QB said:

It seems like every game I watch they are running that play. 

Seems to be more common in high school and college and less in the NFL, but apparently it is picking up more and more steam.

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28 minutes ago, MJS said:

I was watching the Texans vs Chiefs highlights and recognized a play. It's the same play (or very similar) to the one Brian Daboll has been using with great success in games this year. It's the little forward handoff / pass to Isaiah McKenzie that went for big yards. Not sure what to call the play. It's basically a hand off but counts as a forward pass. We've used this play other times throughout the season and it usually goes for good yardage.

 

The Texans use the same play at 4:44 in the below video (you'll probably have to click through the link to Youtube since the NFL restricts their content):

 

 

The outcome was not favorable for the Texans, but it is obviously a very similar play to what the Bills use. This is probably a play that does not originate with Daboll, but perhaps his success using it has caused other teams to use it more. Here's Daboll calling the same play against the Titans (at 7:44 in the video):

 

 

Very similar alignment. The Bills use an extra receiver as a blocker while the Texans use an extra linemen (or perhaps TE) on the line to block. I wonder if this is taken straight out of the Patriot's playbook since both the Bills and the Texans have coaches that used to be in New England, although off the top of my head I don't remember the Patriots using this (they definitely could have, though).

 

I think it's a variant of the jet sweep run from shotgun instead of from under center.  In a jet sweep, the QB normally takes the snap under center and turns around to put it in the WR's belly as he runs behind him.   Since Allen was taking the snap from shotgun, McKensie ran in front and he tossed it to him. 

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19 minutes ago, Johnnycage46 said:

 

We could probably say that for any screen pass, slant, dump off.  Plus they have worked this year for the Bills...probably more of the reason why they do them...rather than just stat padding.

Oh yeah for sure. But that shovel pass is the one play most fans could make.  Hell screens and slants have been difficult for our qbs to complete over the years.

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31 minutes ago, whatdrought said:

It's called a shovel pass... It counts as a forward pass which is beneficial cause if it's mishandled it's not a fumble, whereas a handoff on a sweep is tricky. 

The chiefs ran this a ton last year which accounted for several of Mahomes td "passes"

 

I think the classic shovel pass involves following a pulling guard, which I don't think this play does.

 

I'll put it out there that I'm pretty much self taught at football from watching games and film and I'm not the "go to" for terminology.  Here:
http://insider.afca.com/xs-os-resurgence-shovel-pass/

 

19 minutes ago, MJS said:

Jet sweep is a running play, not a passing play. It is a hand off or a toss backward.

 

EDIT: Ah, I found out the name. Fly Sweep:

 

The Fly Sweep is a combination of both plays in one (Sweep and Jet Sweep). It is similar to the toss in that the RB can read and look to cut up upfield at any point where the defense overreacts. It is also similar to the Jet in that it involves a motion before the snap. The speed of the motion is kept at about 80% instead of all out. Sweep and Jet Sweep are both running plays though, whereas the Fly Sweep counts as a pass play because the ball travels forward slightly.

 

In the Fly Sweep, the running back will come back in an orbit motion from a wing alignment. Wing alignments are usually about a one yard back by one yard outside the widest lineman.

 

Oklahoma-Jet-Sweep.gif

 

Fair enough.  Some sources say the Jet sweep and fly sweep are the same play, but the distinction of one being a backward handoff and the other a forward pass makes sense to me.

https://www.windycitygridiron.com/2014/11/5/7132567/football-101-difference-between-a-jet-sweep-an-end-around-reverse

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