Bray Wyatt Posted August 19, 2019 Share Posted August 19, 2019 (edited) 2 minutes ago, That's No Moon said: I've watched him play football. I'm not impressed. If not for his draft status I think he might be gone already. Dude had 56 catches and 7tds in his 2nd year in the league, with a quarter of that season having Peterman and Anderson at QB. Edit: Also doesnt include pre-injury Josh who was not nearly as good as post injury Josh Edited August 19, 2019 by Bray Wyatt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshAllenHasBigHands Posted August 19, 2019 Share Posted August 19, 2019 2 minutes ago, That's No Moon said: I've watched him play football. I'm not impressed. If not for his draft status I think he might be gone already. Can't argue with the eye test Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
That's No Moon Posted August 19, 2019 Share Posted August 19, 2019 4 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said: Can't argue with the eye test When those eyes see him not catching the football, yeah it's a little hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarleyNY Posted August 19, 2019 Share Posted August 19, 2019 14 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said: Its just a lack of critical thinking. Its easier to rely on the narrative than think for yourself. He ranked 61st in receiving yards last season. There are some TEs and RBs ahead of him so that improves his position a bit. He’s serviceable, yes. The Bills should not trade him because they don’t have that good of a WR corps and he makes the team better. But he is a WR that - barring significant improvement - a good team would want to upgrade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
That's No Moon Posted August 19, 2019 Share Posted August 19, 2019 6 minutes ago, BarleyNY said: He ranked 61st in receiving yards last season. There are some TEs and RBs ahead of him so that improves his position a bit. He’s serviceable, yes. The Bills should not trade him because they don’t have that good of a WR corps and he makes the team better. But he is a WR that - barring significant improvement - a good team would want to upgrade. He's replacement level which is why nobody will give you anything for him. He's a possession receiver that gets the yips in traffic. Super. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarleyNY Posted August 19, 2019 Share Posted August 19, 2019 9 minutes ago, Bray Wyatt said: Dude had 56 catches and 7tds in his 2nd year in the league, with a quarter of that season having Peterman and Anderson at QB. Edit: Also doesnt include pre-injury Josh who was not nearly as good as post injury Josh He was also the best WR on the team over the course of the whole season (ugh) and got more targets by far than any other WR. Again, he’s serviceable and he may yet develop into a solid WR. Let’s see what he does this season and go from there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted August 19, 2019 Share Posted August 19, 2019 30 minutes ago, Bangarang said: Any time you can trade your starting RB ad WR 3 weeks before the season for what would be at best a mid/late round pick you just have to do it. #process We did with Sammy and worried why Tyrod regressed. We should have traded MCCoy 2 years ago. But now, both guys are more valuable to the Bills than anything they would get back. Keep’em. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarleyNY Posted August 19, 2019 Share Posted August 19, 2019 Just now, That's No Moon said: He's replacement level which is why nobody will give you anything for him. He's a possession receiver that gets the yips in traffic. Super. Pretty much. You mention a good point that I read in his predraft evaluation - he is a possession WR who excels at finding soft spots in zone especially underneath, but he isn’t great against man and doesn’t separate well deep. Honestly he’d probably be great with Brady in that offense, but he doesn’t seem to fit with Allen and our vertical offense except maybe as a slot (which is Beasley’s job). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshAllenHasBigHands Posted August 19, 2019 Share Posted August 19, 2019 16 minutes ago, BarleyNY said: He ranked 61st in receiving yards last season. There are some TEs and RBs ahead of him so that improves his position a bit. He’s serviceable, yes. The Bills should not trade him because they don’t have that good of a WR corps and he makes the team better. But he is a WR that - barring significant improvement - a good team would want to upgrade. He is a # 2 WR, ranked as an average #2 WR (in yards) and an above average #2 WR (in touchdowns). Sure, an upgrade would be awesome, but lets not pretend he is a garbage WR. 18 minutes ago, That's No Moon said: When those eyes see him not catching the football, yeah it's a little hard. That fact that your "eyes" can't pick up evidence borne out in statistics is why you should probably be a little more skeptical of your own opinions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted August 19, 2019 Share Posted August 19, 2019 Just now, JoshAllenHasBigHands said: He is a # 2 WR, ranked as an average #2 WR (in yards) and an above average #2 WR (in touchdowns). Sure, an upgrade would be awesome, but lets not pretend he is a garbage WR. At the same point, someone needed to catch the ball. There are guys who get numbers but it doesn’t mean they’re good. But he’s a sunk cost so I’m fine with keeping him at this point and hoping he gets it. But McBeane are bad at scouting the receiver position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshAllenHasBigHands Posted August 19, 2019 Share Posted August 19, 2019 4 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said: At the same point, someone needed to catch the ball. There are guys who get numbers but it doesn’t mean they’re good. But he’s a sunk cost so I’m fine with keeping him at this point and hoping he gets it. But McBeane are bad at scouting the receiver position. Zay reminds me of Woods. He looks very average (not worthy of resigning), but he is also playing with terrible QBs/rookie QBs. I hate the way we analyze WRs in isolation. Give Zay a year with a guy that can really sling it, and his yards will sky rocket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted August 19, 2019 Share Posted August 19, 2019 Just now, JoshAllenHasBigHands said: Zay reminds me of Woods. He looks very average (not worthy of resigning), but he is also playing with terrible QBs/rookie QBs. I hate the way we analyze WRs in isolation. Give Zay a year with a guy that can really sling it, and his yards will sky rocket. Woods was a baller. I think he is much better than Zay. He was tough and never dropped anything. Zay seems like the opposite of this. But I’m fine with him getting another year. but imagine if we didn’t trade up for Zay and just took JuJu or Kupp? ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshAllenHasBigHands Posted August 19, 2019 Share Posted August 19, 2019 2 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said: Woods was a baller. I think he is much better than Zay. He was tough and never dropped anything. Zay seems like the opposite of this. But I’m fine with him getting another year. but imagine if we didn’t trade up for Zay and just took JuJu or Kupp? ? He is better because he has an awesome QB, entering his prime, throwing to him. Same as JuJu and Kupp. WRs (outside the best of the best) are only as good as the QB throwing them the ball. JuJu looks like Zay if he is on the Bills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarleyNY Posted August 19, 2019 Share Posted August 19, 2019 (edited) 24 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said: He is a # 2 WR, ranked as an average #2 WR (in yards) and an above average #2 WR (in touchdowns). Sure, an upgrade would be awesome, but lets not pretend he is a garbage WR. I never said he was a garbage WR. You should probably read my posts. One further stat to go with those. He was 26th in targets among WRs. He was 49th in receiving yards and 40th in receptions among WRs. Certainly not garbage, but not really impressive as our top WR either. WR Stats Edited August 19, 2019 by BarleyNY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshAllenHasBigHands Posted August 19, 2019 Share Posted August 19, 2019 6 minutes ago, BarleyNY said: I never said he was a garbage WR. You should probably read my posts. Oh good, semantics, that always provides for a good argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florida Bills Fanatic Posted August 19, 2019 Share Posted August 19, 2019 5 hours ago, bigK14094 said: McCoy has been a pro here. I think he contributes big this year.......but, likely no new contract. Somebody else will pick him up next year. He may be motivated by career records.....or not. I have been a Shady fan for a long time. It has been fun to watch him over the years. His game is based on quickness and that short burst of speed to hit the gaps. He appears to have lost some of that ability in the run game. He is still a dangerous receiver and can still beat a guy in space. IMHO his future will be as a third down back at a much reduced dollar contract with another team after this season. Let's hope he can stay healthy and pull off one more good season in 2019. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarleyNY Posted August 19, 2019 Share Posted August 19, 2019 3 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said: Oh good, semantics, that always provides for a good argument. Not semantics at all. Overstating the position of an opponent so they seem unreasonable is a cheap and lazy way to argue. I was just pointing out that that was what you were doing and that my position was very different than what you stated. I am happy to argue honestly if you have any interest in that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bray Wyatt Posted August 19, 2019 Share Posted August 19, 2019 48 minutes ago, BarleyNY said: He was also the best WR on the team over the course of the whole season (ugh) and got more targets by far than any other WR. Again, he’s serviceable and he may yet develop into a solid WR. Let’s see what he does this season and go from there. Oh I am not saying he is made or anything but he is someone who we traded up for and seems to finally be trending in the right direction. I agree lets see what he does this season, I am expecting some further progression Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarleyNY Posted August 19, 2019 Share Posted August 19, 2019 Just now, Bray Wyatt said: Oh I am not saying he is made or anything but he is someone who we traded up for and seems to finally be trending in the right direction. I agree lets see what he does this season, I am expecting some further progression I agree with that. It’s certainly the best course of action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PetermansRedemption Posted August 19, 2019 Share Posted August 19, 2019 1 hour ago, Bangarang said: Any time you can trade your starting RB ad WR 3 weeks before the season for what would be at best a mid/late round pick you just have to do it. #process I don’t agree with trading Zay as he is still young and really hasn’t had horrible production. Shady on the other hand. High cap hit, declining production, wrong side of 35. Easily 2 guys on the roster right now that can produce like he can. If you can get anything for him, you do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big C Posted August 19, 2019 Share Posted August 19, 2019 Well we can't trade Zay now that Foster is about to lose a foot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
That's No Moon Posted August 19, 2019 Share Posted August 19, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said: He is a # 2 WR, ranked as an average #2 WR (in yards) and an above average #2 WR (in touchdowns). Sure, an upgrade would be awesome, but lets not pretend he is a garbage WR. That fact that your "eyes" can't pick up evidence borne out in statistics is why you should probably be a little more skeptical of your own opinions. I'll tell you what. If watched enough of this game for long enough and seen enough players come and go that I think I can spot a JAG when I see one and Zay Jones is a JAG. When he drops a big ball in December and costs them a game come pump his tires then. Statistics. Yup. That's the definitive answer. A guy has decent WR2 numbers in Fantasy, lets keep him. Here are some stats from 2 receivers in the same year. You tell me, based on this, which one was a better player. WR1: 57 receptions, 752 yards, 5TDs WR2: 56 receptions, 765 yards, 4TDs Edited August 19, 2019 by That's No Moon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted August 19, 2019 Share Posted August 19, 2019 I think I am about there on seeing what we can get for Zay Jones....would rather trade him for a later round pick then cut him for nothing. Duke actually catches the ball 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted August 19, 2019 Share Posted August 19, 2019 3 hours ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said: Its just a lack of critical thinking. Its easier to rely on the narrative than think for yourself. He does not make big catches.....I wish he did 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
That's No Moon Posted August 19, 2019 Share Posted August 19, 2019 5 minutes ago, John from Riverside said: He does not make big catches.....I wish he did Had a good fantasy day on this day. Dropped an important pass at the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshAllenHasBigHands Posted August 19, 2019 Share Posted August 19, 2019 58 minutes ago, That's No Moon said: I'll tell you what. If watched enough of this game for long enough and seen enough players come and go that I think I can spot a JAG when I see one and Zay Jones is a JAG. When he drops a big ball in December and costs them a game come pump his tires then. Statistics. Yup. That's the definitive answer. A guy has decent WR2 numbers in Fantasy, lets keep him. Here are some stats from 2 receivers in the same year. You tell me, based on this, which one was a better player. WR1: 57 receptions, 752 yards, 5TDs WR2: 56 receptions, 765 yards, 4TDs I honestly don’t know, but I’m not talking about stats generally; I’m citing one specific stat—drops. He does not drop the ball the way it is represented on this board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
That's No Moon Posted August 19, 2019 Share Posted August 19, 2019 (edited) 19 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said: I honestly don’t know, but I’m not talking about stats generally; I’m citing one specific stat—drops. He does not drop the ball the way it is represented on this board. You don't want to play now? These guys both played on the same team. They both had the same QB all year. They were both in their 3rd year. Which one was a better player? Or is what you're saying that you can't tell the difference between them just based on that and you would need some additional information, like maybe watching them play? I'll bail you out. The year was 1987 Wr1 is Andre Reed a HoF player Wr2 is Chris Burkett a JAG who was cut less than 2 seasons later. Edited August 19, 2019 by That's No Moon 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlayoffsPlease Posted August 19, 2019 Share Posted August 19, 2019 9 hours ago, dollars 2 donuts said: I know that this is just a hypothetical question at this point and, OK, I am game, a 5th for Zay and a 4th for Shady. HERE we don't think highly of Zay and I am not saying they should anywhere else, but on a terrible team last year he caught 61 passes and 7 TDs so thta should mean something to someone if they need receiver help. That sad I have still been stunned by the perception of this fan base concerning Shady. I don't think he has really lost a step and I think last year's Oline, especially for the running game, was bad beyond the mere stats that analysts give us. I believe it was one of if not the worst line in franchise history. He is a workout machine, takes care of himself, is not THAT old and is committed, especially in a free agency year. I believe Shady is the number one back on this team and I believe he is going to rush for the most yards and depending upon how things unfold I believe he is capable of a thousand yard season, if not more. I hope I am right, because it can only benefit this team this year if I am. I hope you are right. But I think it is more likely we lose a game or two because Shady is a weak starter before McD accepts the truth. He is this years peterman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshAllenHasBigHands Posted August 19, 2019 Share Posted August 19, 2019 8 minutes ago, That's No Moon said: You don't want to play now? These guys both played on the same team. They both had the same QB all year. They were both in their 3rd year. Which one was a better player? Or is what you're saying that you can't tell the difference between them just based on that and you would need some additional information, like maybe watching them play? I'll bail you out. The year was 1987 Wr1 is Andre Reed a HoF player Wr2 is Chris Burkett a JAG who was cut less than 2 seasons later. Ohhhhh i see your point. That’s fair. I honestly do not know the trajectory of their careers. I’m sure there is some glaring context you are leaving out, but I’ll give it to you. All I’m saying is that if you think zay can’t play because of the drops, which was your original point, you are objectively and demonstrably wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
That's No Moon Posted August 19, 2019 Share Posted August 19, 2019 Just now, JoshAllenHasBigHands said: Ohhhhh i see your point. That’s fair. I honestly do not know the trajectory of their careers. I’m sure there is some glaring context you are leaving out, but I’ll give it to you. All I’m saying is that if you think zay can’t play because of the drops, which was your original point, you are objectively and demonstrably wrong. No, I'm not, but thanks for playing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshAllenHasBigHands Posted August 19, 2019 Share Posted August 19, 2019 2 minutes ago, That's No Moon said: No, I'm not, but thanks for playing. Naturally there was the exact amount of context missing from that Burkett story as I thought there would be. The fact that you were that misleading with your blind stat challenge tells me everything I need to know about you. Because, apparently, you have this magical eye that allows you to see drops not seen my any other statistician or pro sports analyst. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlgarsh Posted August 19, 2019 Share Posted August 19, 2019 Send Zay to the Seahawks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
That's No Moon Posted August 19, 2019 Share Posted August 19, 2019 Just now, JoshAllenHasBigHands said: Naturally there was the exact amount of context missing from that Burkett story as I thought there would be. The fact that you were that misleading with your blind stat challenge tells me everything I need to know about you. Because, apparently, you have this magical eye that allows you to see drops not seen my any other statistician or pro sports analyst. Kay, so he got credited with how many last year? 3? Watch this and see how many you see. I see at least 6 and these are just Allen throws, not Anderson or Barkley. There are a couple I didn't count because I didn't think they were drops but "drop" is a subjective stat. Just because a catch is difficult doesn't mean an NFL receiver shouldn't catch the ball. 16 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said: Naturally there was the exact amount of context missing from that Burkett story as I thought there would be. The fact that you were that misleading with your blind stat challenge tells me everything I need to know about you. Because, apparently, you have this magical eye that allows you to see drops not seen my any other statistician or pro sports analyst. and what precisely was misleading about the stats I gave you? That was the point! You, quite snarkily, came after me about the eye test and quoted stats so I proved to you how stats don't tell the whole story. The fact that you feel mislead by that just proves my point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshAllenHasBigHands Posted August 19, 2019 Share Posted August 19, 2019 (edited) 8 minutes ago, That's No Moon said: Kay, so he got credited with how many last year? 3? Watch this and see how many you see. I see at least 6 and these are just Allen throws, not Anderson or Barkley. There are a couple I didn't count because I didn't think they were drops but "drop" is a subjective stat. Just because a catch is difficult doesn't mean an NFL receiver shouldn't catch the ball. The official number is 5. It’s the same standard as every other nfl WR in the league. Like they say, facts don’t care about your feelings. You may feel it’s a drop, but by the standard applied to every player in the league, it is not. Im dying over the fact that you thought this video proves your point. This is fantastic. Edited August 19, 2019 by JoshAllenHasBigHands 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
That's No Moon Posted August 19, 2019 Share Posted August 19, 2019 6 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said: Im dying over the fact that you thought this video proves your point. This is fantastic. Yeah, I'm not going to go through every snap and build you a video montage of all of his targets. You're welcome to do that though. Have a good time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshAllenHasBigHands Posted August 19, 2019 Share Posted August 19, 2019 Just now, That's No Moon said: Yeah, I'm not going to go through every snap and build you a video montage of all of his targets. You're welcome to do that though. Have a good time. See, this is a basic perception problem. He had drops, you are right. Point is everyone has drops; he did not have an above average number of drops. And that video you posted, while it certainly shows some drops (but others that are on the verge of completely u catchable) does nothing to prove he had more drops than any other receiver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LSHMEAB Posted August 19, 2019 Share Posted August 19, 2019 41 minutes ago, PlayoffsPlease said: I hope you are right. But I think it is more likely we lose a game or two because Shady is a weak starter before McD accepts the truth. He is this years peterman. Shouldn't Singletary be ready to play a major role? We took a RB in the 3rd round. What's the deal with him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augie Posted August 20, 2019 Share Posted August 20, 2019 4 hours ago, Big C said: Well we can't trade Zay now that Foster is about to lose a foot. I hate to be negative, but I fear his spleen may be at risk as well. ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big C Posted August 20, 2019 Share Posted August 20, 2019 2 hours ago, Augie said: I hate to be negative, but I fear his spleen may be at risk as well. ? Look at this picture of Foster at his house this morning! I don't think he is ever setting foot (boom! roasted) on a field again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted August 20, 2019 Share Posted August 20, 2019 4 hours ago, John from Riverside said: I think I am about there on seeing what we can get for Zay Jones....would rather trade him for a later round pick then cut him for nothing. Duke actually catches the ball For you to be down on a receiver is worrisome! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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