Who's Most Responsible for Pats* Dynasty: Brady or Belichick?

[Call_Of_Ktulu]

1 hour ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Another huge factor is Brady takes less money that doesn’t handicap the Pats.  

Brady is not taking less money, he is being paid under the table to circumvent the cap. I have no proof of this but I’m 100% sure it is happening.

 

Out of all the cheating that the Patriots have done to me circumventing the cap would be the worst.

[Gugny]

2 hours ago, Cripple Creek said:

I’m happy to admit when I’m wrong. I’m just as happy to argue when people answer a flawed question incorrectly.  And whilst (A&FM) we’re at it, please refute my points.

 

 

And your bottom paragraph is why the answer is Brady. Name me another HOF QB who would put up w what he has and never asked for the most money?

 

It does not work without Brady.

 

I agree that it does not work without Brady.  It also does not work without pass catchers, running backs and o-linemen ... as well as defense and special teams.  BB the GM is at least partially responsible for those other, very important, pieces to the team being there.

 

He's also responsible for knowing when to jettison players.

 

And for building a winning culture.

 

And for discipline.

 

None of those things works without Belichick.  Brady is the GOAT.  But he's still just one man with one responsibility.  Not so with BB.

[Rocky Landing]

I wonder how many Pats* fans are eavesdropping on this thread? Kinda embarrassing...

[Cripple Creek]

40 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

I agree that it does not work without Brady.  It also does not work without pass catchers, running backs and o-linemen ... as well as defense and special teams.  BB the GM is at least partially responsible for those other, very important, pieces to the team being there.

 

He's also responsible for knowing when to jettison players.

 

And for building a winning culture.

 

And for discipline.

 

None of those things works without Belichick.  Brady is the GOAT.  But he's still just one man with one responsibility.  Not so with BB.

You have Belichick and the succession of Bills QBs who have started in his tenure. Are we still talking dynasty?

 

Only one piece changes over the course of his run there. One tiny piece. Is he still a genius?

[Gugny]

4 minutes ago, Cripple Creek said:

You have Belichick and the succession of Bills QBs who have started in his tenure. Are we still talking dynasty?

 

Only one piece changes over the course of his run there. One tiny piece. Is he still a genius?

 

Yes.  Yes, he is.

 

You owe me a chicken dinner.

[mannc]

1 minute ago, Cripple Creek said:

You have Belichick and the succession of Bills QBs who have started in his tenure. Are we still talking dynasty?

 

Only one piece changes over the course of his run there. One tiny piece. Is he still a genius?

If Brady had never come along, it's ridiculous to think that Belichick would not have done far better at obtaining a franchise QB than the pathetic succession of Bills GMs and coaches since 2000.  Just as I'm confident the Pats will find themselves with a more than adequate QB when Brady decides to hang 'em up.  

[Beast]

Drew Bledsoe was 5-13 in his 18 games with Belichick.

 

Brady came in and went 14-4.

 

Drew Bledsoe was 8-8 in his first year in Buffalo.

 

Hmmmmmmmm.

Edited July 15, 2019 by Binghamton Beast

[Cripple Creek]

6 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

Yes.  Yes, he is.

 

You owe me a chicken dinner.

If you believe that JP Losman, EJ Manual, Trent Edwards et al would thrive, allowing Belichick to be dynastic then you’re nuts.

 

It’s the QB.

7 minutes ago, mannc said:

If Brady had never come along, it's ridiculous to think that Belichick would not have done far better at obtaining a franchise QB than the pathetic succession of Bills GMs and coaches since 2000.  Just as I'm confident the Pats will find themselves with a more than adequate QB when Brady decides to hang 'em up.  

Perhaps. What successful QBs have they drafted in that time?

[Gugny]

Just now, Cripple Creek said:

If you believe that JP Losman, EJ Manual, Trent Edwards et al would thrive, allowing Belichick to be dynastic then you’re nuts.

 

It’s the QB.

 

I never said, nor implied, that.

 

This is why the word, "Most," is within the question.  Of course they're both responsible; significantly so.  The question is who has been most responsible for the dynasty.

 

 

[Cripple Creek]

2 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

I never said, nor implied, that.

 

This is why the word, "Most," is within the question.  Of course they're both responsible; significantly so.  The question is who has been most responsible for the dynasty.

 

 

And, Brady has shown he is a successful QB. He would be elsewhere. Where else has Belichick been a HC? How successful was he? 

 

You’re the one touting your man, your disdain for Brady is because of all the beat downs HE has given this team.

 

I can’t argue with illogic. You either see it or you don’t. You don’t see it or you’re playing your natural troll game. 

 

[Gugny]

2 minutes ago, Cripple Creek said:

And, Brady has shown he is a successful QB. He would be elsewhere. Where else has Belichick been a HC? How successful was he? 

 

You’re the one touting your man, your disdain for Brady is because of all the beat downs HE has given this team.

 

I can’t argue with illogic. You either see it or you don’t. You don’t see it or you’re playing your natural troll game. 

 

 

I doubt either one would have been part of any dynasty without the other.

 

 

[flaz]

Maybe Craft, he is a scofflaw under indictment for solicitation. The man has no morals. He hire  two guys with no morals to form the triumvirate 

[VADC Bills]

19 hours ago, Gugny said:

 

I think he was considered a genius when he shut down the K-Gun offense and won a super bowl as a DC.

 

And let's not forget that he inherited a pure crap Browns team and led them to a real wild card berth (not having to back in).

 

Trust me.

He was considered a great defensive coordinator not a head coach. He led the Browns to a playoff birth after losing seasons followed up by another losing season.

The genius of BB was having enough sense to draft Brady in the 6th.He was not a winning head coach until Brady started. Once Brady arrived it afforded BB the opportunity to turn his ship around. 

[mannc]

28 minutes ago, Cripple Creek said:

 

 

 

Perhaps. What successful QBs have they drafted in that time?

Well, Garappolo, for one, which is one more than the Bills drafted in that time (leaving Josh Allen out of it, for now).  But it's not really a fair question because the Pats have had the best QB in NFL history for the past 18 years, so drafting or otherwise acquiring another QB hasn't exactly been at the top of their to-do list.  

Edited July 15, 2019 by mannc

[Cripple Creek]

1 minute ago, mannc said:

Well, Garappolo, for one, which is one more than the Bills drafted in that time (leaving Josh Allen out of it, for now).  But it's not really a fair question because the Pats have had the best QB in NFL history for the past 18 years, so drafting or otherwise acquiring another QB hasn't exactly been at the top of their to-do list.  

I’ll give you partial points. They have tried to draft his successor and JG is as close as they’ve come. We’ll learn more about him this season.

[mannc]

1 minute ago, Cripple Creek said:

I’ll give you partial points. They have tried to draft his successor and JG is as close as they’ve come. We’ll learn more about him this season.

JG is the only guy you could legitimately say was drafted as a potential Brady replacement and he’s turned out very well, so far, especially for a second round pick.

[Gugny]

5 minutes ago, VADC Bills said:

He was considered a great defensive coordinator not a head coach. He led the Browns to a playoff birth after losing seasons followed up by another losing season.

The genius of BB was having enough sense to draft Brady in the 6th.He was not a winning head coach until Brady started. Once Brady arrived it afforded BB the opportunity to turn his ship around. 

 

It is my opinion that you could have had Bill Walsh, Vince Lombardi and Bill Parcells on the same staff for Belichick's Browns teams, and they still wouldn't have gone to the playoffs.

 

No coach is good enough to win without talent.

 

Not every coach is good enough to lead a dynasty in today's NFL, even with an elite QB.  There are plenty of teams over the past twenty years who've had an elite QB who've never done squat, let alone go to the Super Bowl nine times.

[Punching Bag]

Belichick, he is the bigger cheater.

[Mike in Horseheads]

24 minutes ago, Cripple Creek said:

And, Brady has shown he is a successful QB. He would be elsewhere. Where else has Belichick been a HC? How successful was he? 

 

You’re the one touting your man, your disdain for Brady is because of all the beat downs HE has given this team.

 

I can’t argue with illogic. You either see it or you don’t. You don’t see it or you’re playing your natural troll game. 

 

Not sure how you can say he would be successful elsewhere. Different team, different coach different owner etc. Too many variables 

[without a drought]

There wouldn't be a dynasty without the 2 of them.

 

Belichick isn't going to 9 Super Bowls with another QB and Tom might have had trouble getting on the field as a 6th round pick in a different situation.

[Cripple Creek]

1 hour ago, Mike in Horseheads said:

Not sure how you can say he would be successful elsewhere. Different team, different coach different owner etc. Too many variables 

GOAT

[LSHMEAB]

1 hour ago, Mike in Horseheads said:

Not sure how you can say he would be successful elsewhere. Different team, different coach different owner etc. Too many variables 

Would you say the same of the other elite QB's or are you implying Brady is simply a product of his environment?

 

He doesn't have elite physical talent, but he's an elite QB. Best to ever play IMO. Would Joe Montana, John Elway, Johnny Unitas, Favre/Rodgers not have been successful elsewhere? 

 

ELITE QB's will win a lot of games over the course of their career. An OLD Montana took a "decent" Chiefs team to the AFC Championship. I liked the results of that game, but the point stands.

[Gugny]

25 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said:

Would you say the same of the other elite QB's or are you implying Brady is simply a product of his environment?

 

He doesn't have elite physical talent, but he's an elite QB. Best to ever play IMO. Would Joe Montana, John Elway, Johnny Unitas, Favre/Rodgers not have been successful elsewhere? 

 

ELITE QB's will win a lot of games over the course of their career. An OLD Montana took a "decent" Chiefs team to the AFC Championship. I liked the results of that game, but the point stands.

 

Montana, Elway, Unitas, Favre and Rodgers combined to win 9 Super Bowls.   Rodgers being the only one who won in "today's" NFL.

 

Brady is the GOAT (in my opinion).  But the fact that guys like Rodgers (1), Roethlisberger (2), Stafford (look at his stats before you say he doesn't belong in the conversation; he does) (0) and Rivers (0) have NOT been part of dynasties solidifies the fact that Bill Belichick is, between him and Brady, the most responsible for the Patriots* dynasty.

[mannc]

2 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

Montana, Elway, Unitas, Favre and Rodgers combined to win 9 Super Bowls.   Rodgers being the only one who won in "today's" NFL.

 

Brady is the GOAT (in my opinion).  But the fact that guys like Rodgers (1), Roethlisberger (2), Stafford (look at his stats before you say he doesn't belong in the conversation; he does) (0) and Rivers (0) have NOT been part of dynasties solidifies the fact that Bill Belichick is, between him and Brady, the most responsible for the Patriots* dynasty.

Great point, although I strongly disagree about Matt Stafford.

[LSHMEAB]

4 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

Montana, Elway, Unitas, Favre and Rodgers combined to win 9 Super Bowls.   Rodgers being the only one who won in "today's" NFL.

 

Brady is the GOAT (in my opinion).  

Brady is the GOAT IMO as well. I was responding to the poster who insinuated that Brady may have failed elsewhere. That line of thinking comes from the false narrative that Brady is a product of the system. Nobody would say such a thing about John Elway.

[Gugny]

2 minutes ago, mannc said:

Great point, although I strongly disagree about Matt Stafford.

 

Please just look at these stats.  Ridiculous.  https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/S/StafMa00.htm

[Augie]

11 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

Please just look at these stats.  Ridiculous.  https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/S/StafMa00.htm

 

This would seem to indicate that a QB CAN indeed go from the 53% +/- completion range up into the mid-60’s. I read that was impossible....somewhere.....

[mannc]

11 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

Please just look at these stats.  Ridiculous.  https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/S/StafMa00.htm

I don't want to get too sidetracked, but those are not Hall of Fame stats.  Stafford is basically Eli Manning without the Super Bowl rings.  Significantly less impressive stats than guys like Roethlisberger, Russ Wilson and even Philip Rivers.  I'm talking about things like YPA and TD/Int. ratio.  And of course, Stafford just doesn't win games, or at least, not very many.

[Gugny]

6 minutes ago, mannc said:

I don't want to get too sidetracked, but those are not Hall of Fame stats.  Stafford is basically Eli Manning without the Super Bowl rings.  Significantly less impressive stats than guys like Roethlisberger, Russ Wilson and even Philip Rivers.  I'm talking about things like YPA and TD/Int. ratio.  And of course, Stafford just doesn't win games, or at least, not very many.

 

That's actually my point.  You put Stafford on a team with Bill Belichick as the HC/GM ... hell ... you replace Brady with Stafford ... and there's still a dynasty in NE.  Perhaps not 9 Super Bowls with 6 wins; but multiple wins.

 

Stafford's zero Super Bowls, Rivers' zero Super Bowls and Roethlisberger's two .... it's because they didn't have stellar coaching/GM performance.

 

I think it just underscores the importance of solid brass and coaching, which was the point of the poll/original question.

 

I think it solidifies the fact that Bill Belichick is mostly responsible for the dynasty ... even though he couldn't have done it without Brady.

[Cripple Creek]

42 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

Montana, Elway, Unitas, Favre and Rodgers combined to win 9 Super Bowls.   Rodgers being the only one who won in "today's" NFL.

 

Brady is the GOAT (in my opinion).  But the fact that guys like Rodgers (1), Roethlisberger (2), Stafford (look at his stats before you say he doesn't belong in the conversation; he does) (0) and Rivers (0) have NOT been part of dynasties solidifies the fact that Bill Belichick is, between him and Brady, the most responsible for the Patriots* dynasty.

I’m sorry, the fact that Brady is the GOAT proves your point how?

 

Stafford? Stats?

 

youre drinking again

[Gugny]

4 minutes ago, Cripple Creek said:

I’m sorry, the fact that Brady is the GOAT proves your point how?

 

Stafford? Stats?

 

youre drinking again

 

I'm not going to report you.  I'm going to beat you.

[Punching Bag]

28 minutes ago, Augie said:

 

This would seem to indicate that a QB CAN indeed go from the 53% +/- completion range up into the mid-60’s. I read that was impossible....somewhere.....

 

I did too but and had the person on ignore but the claim was so outrageous I saw it anyways because someone quoted it.

 

 

18 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

I think it just underscores the importance of solid brass and coaching, which was the point of the poll/original question.

 

 

Solid brass balls are needed yes to cheat so much and claim you did not need it to win.  If this was a divorce any judge not on TV would give a divorce on grounds of infidelity.

[Augie]

3 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

I'm not going to report you.  I'm going to beat you.

 

Will this be a PPV cage event? Where do I sign up? 

[Punching Bag]

20 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

That's actually my point.  You put Stafford on a team with Bill Belichick as the HC/GM ... hell ... you replace Brady with Stafford ... and there's still a dynasty in NE.  Perhaps not 9 Super Bowls with 6 wins; but multiple wins.

 

Stafford's zero Super Bowls, Rivers' zero Super Bowls and Roethlisberger's two .... it's because they didn't have stellar coaching/GM performance.

 

I think it just underscores the importance of solid brass and coaching, which was the point of the poll/original question.

 

I think it solidifies the fact that Bill Belichick is mostly responsible for the dynasty ... even though he couldn't have done it without Brady.

 

8 minutes ago, Cripple Creek said:

I’m sorry, the fact that Brady is the GOAT proves your point how?

 

Stafford? Stats?

 

youre drinking again

 

The two of you need to do Russian Roulette but with shot glasses of vodka and random shots will be laced with cyanide. 

 

I have not seen so much arguing since last time I was called in to help moderate an argument between a couple who had divorced.  I told them I had no solution other than get remarried.

3 minutes ago, Augie said:

 

Will this be a PPV cage event? Where do I sign up? 

 

One way for SDS to earn money for site.

37 minutes ago, Augie said:

 

This would seem to indicate that a QB CAN indeed go from the 53% +/- completion range up into the mid-60’s. I read that was impossible....somewhere.....

 

More important is he went from being injured to being available for every game.

[Gugny]

7 minutes ago, Augie said:

 

Will this be a PPV cage event? Where do I sign up? 

 

LIVE and in person, only.  It won't last long.

[Augie]

4 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

LIVE and in person, only.  It won't last long.

 

Wait...this isn’t a restroom at a highway rest area thing, is it?  

[Gugny]

4 minutes ago, Augie said:

 

Wait...this isn’t a restroom at a highway rest area thing, is it?  

 

Don't be silly.  That's way before dinner.

[Mike in Horseheads]

1 hour ago, Gugny said:

 

Don't be silly.  That's way before dinner.

I would hope it would be after dinner and flowers, show some class

[Gugny]

9 minutes ago, Mike in Horseheads said:

I would hope it would be after dinner and flowers, show some class

 

Where I come from, we EARN things like dinner and flowers!

[Thurman#1]

On 7/15/2019 at 12:37 AM, Gugny said:

Obviously, both BB and Brady are largely responsible for the dynasty.  

 

But who do you think is MOST responsible?

 

 

 

Belichick, because he drafted Brady.

 

Kidding. Brady. Belichick's terrific, but Brady is the main reason, IMO.