What would need to occur to extend or fire McDermott?

[Gugny]

Fired:  Less than 5 wins.

Extended: Double digit regular season wins and a playoff win.

 

 

Edited June 26, 2019 by Gugny
None of your business!

[K-9]

Extend: walk on water

 

Fire: sink like a stone

[RyanC883]

18 hours ago, Bills92 said:

Extend: Playoffs and a victory in the playoffs

Fired:  Less than 6 wins assuming Allan is healthy for the majority of the season  (If he is hurt for any extended period of time..  then I think McBeane get a pass)

 

 

 

this.  Allen needs to be healthy for a proper analysis.   I think Extend happens with playoffs or a 10 win season even w/o playoffs.  I think under 6 wins with a healthy team is hot-seat time.  

[BubbaT]

Nothing football related will get him fired this year in my opinion. Nothing. He might be on the hot seat in 2020 but not this year. Misconduct in the workplace is about the only thing I can think of that would trigger a firing and it seems unimagineable to me but one never knows. 

[BmarvB]

It would take an epic 2 year collapse to get him canned, and another playoff appearance to get him extended

[BigBuff423]

1 hour ago, Ronin said:

 

I also wouldn't say "if Allen regresses," there's really not a whole lot of room for him to regress. 

 

 

 

I would respectfully disagree. Again, since I used that phrase in context of the final four games, his final four games were among the best we've seen from a QB as a whole on the Bills for a long time. Is it good enough? No, not really but can he regress back to his first several games type of play? I think he can regress to that. Cover1 did a phenomenal job (as they always do and NO I don't work for them) of showing his progress over the course of the season and specifically how his last quarter contrasted so profoundly with his first quarter of the season. Allen does need to get better and certainly more consistently better, but to say that he didn't show big gains in improvement over the course of the season and therefore by definition, CAN regress since he "pro-gressed" is fundamentally an illogical statement. 

 

All of that said, I agree with your larger premise: Allen must get better, should get better and the team as a whole needs to demonstrate they ARE better. 

[Ronin]

1 hour ago, BigBuff423 said:

I would respectfully disagree. Again, since I used that phrase in context of the final four games, his final four games were among the best we've seen from a QB as a whole on the Bills for a long time. Is it good enough? No, not really but can he regress back to his first several games type of play? I think he can regress to that. Cover1 did a phenomenal job (as they always do and NO I don't work for them) of showing his progress over the course of the season and specifically how his last quarter contrasted so profoundly with his first quarter of the season. Allen does need to get better and certainly more consistently better, but to say that he didn't show big gains in improvement over the course of the season and therefore by definition, CAN regress since he "pro-gressed" is fundamentally an illogical statement. 

 

All of that said, I agree with your larger premise: Allen must get better, should get better and the team as a whole needs to demonstrate they ARE better. 

 

Well, OK, everyone sees things differently.  But allow me to comment on that bolded part, which appears to be a heavy narrative here.  

 

To start, the meat of that "improvement" whether it's over the last four, six, whatever, is that single Miami game. I'm not sure that it's wise to put so much credence into a single game like that when the body-of-work otherwise is diametric to it.  

 

Allow me to sum up.  If we extrapolate his last four games over the course of a 16-game season, i.e., multiply by 4, we get:  

 

272 for 516 (52.7%), 3,404 Yards, 20 TDs, 20 INTs, 6.6 YPA, 5.6 Adj. YPA

 

I suppose one can argue that it's respectable for a rookie that came in with Allen's risks apart from those 20 INTs and low YPAs given his "arm strength," but at least it's not horrific.  

 

I don't think that there's been a QB for us that's played that poorly in passing in a long time.  

 

But here's the thing, here is the season equivalent of the first three of those four games you cite as improvement;  

 

272 for 549 (49.5%), 3,342 Yards, 11 TDs, 21 INTs, a 59.0 rating, 6.1 YPA, 4.7 Adj. YPA  

 

His Miami game stats extrapolated over 16 games are; 

 

272 for 416 (65.4%), 3,584 Yards, 48 TDs, 16 INTs, a 114.9 rating, 8.6 YPA, 9.2 Adj. YPA 

 

So yes, while the "last 4," or "last 6" were in fact technically an improvement over his first six games, I'm not sure that they warrant the confidence that they've created here and elsewhere.  His first 6 games were horrid and easily tracking for DFL in the entire league even lagging Rosen at the time.   

 

Those Miami stats obviously skew the last 4 or last 6 heavily, it's simply that people close their eyes to that.  I mean there's no way around 11 TDs and 21 INTs, there simply isn't and it's probably not wise to use a single game like that to generate such grandiose expectations.  Anyone can do it, but if we go and look up all the past QBs that have busted, we can almost always find such a game in their game logs.  In fact, Matt Leinart's and Vince Young's first seasons are all but a carbon copy of Allen's.  

 

Player	Cmp	Att	Cmp%	Yds	TD	Rate	Lng	Int	Sk	Yds	Y/A	AY/A	NY/A	ANY/A
Vince Young	184	357	51.5	2199	12	66.7	53	13	25	129	6.2	5.19	5.42	4.52
Matt Leinart	214	377	56.8	2547	11	74	58	12	21	158	6.8	5.91	6	5.2
Josh Allen	169	320	52.8	2074	10	67.9	75	12	28	213	6.5	5.42	5.35	4.37

 

Young's rushing was almost identical to Allen's as well.  

 

At some point some consistency has to factor into this nebulous "improvement."  Leinart was more consistent with 7 of 12 games with ratings of 76 or better while Allen had 8 of 12 games with ratings of less than 72.  Young and Allen were almost exact matches.  

 

Young threw a TD pass in 9 of 15 games, Leinart in 8 of 12, Allen in 7 of 12.  

 

It's something to consider, but just because everyone says that Allen improved after he came back from injury, while perhaps true, does not mean that overall he played well, he didn't.  It comes down to how much faith one has that the Miami game was more of a "coming out" than an anomaly.  

 

 

 

 

Edited June 26, 2019 by Ronin

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

2 hours ago, Ronin said:

 

What are the odds of that happening tho?  

 

I'd put them firmly at slim-to-nil.  

 

On the other hand, Barkely did post our best game last season as a QB.  Extrapolated over an entire season it would be 24 TDs, 0 INTs, 9.3 YPA, 10.7 AYPA, 117.4 Rating, 16 sacks, and average yardage production.  Just sayin'.  

 

Why do you think there's low odds in that?  What I mean by rest of team looking good, the defense was already looking good last year, so slight improvement there or even stay the same.  If the O-line looks like they know what they are doing, the new players look solid, Knox, Brown and Beasley look like good signings, and Singleley the RB looks like a good pick.  Granted if Allan struggles bad it would be hard to evaluate the WR either way, but regardless of Allens play can certainly judge the defense, O- line and RB.

[Rocky Landing]

Can’t see him getting fired until after the 2020 season, unless the team absolutely tanks before then. 

[Ronin]

18 minutes ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

 

Why do you think there's low odds in that?  What I mean by rest of team looking good, the defense was already looking good last year, so slight improvement there or even stay the same.  If the O-line looks like they know what they are doing, the new players look solid, Knox, Brown and Beasley look like good signings, and Singleley the RB looks like a good pick.  Granted if Allan struggles bad it would be hard to evaluate the WR either way, but regardless of Allens play can certainly judge the defense, O- line and RB.

 

Yeah, I can see the possibility for confusion there, I should have stated that better.  I'll edit it. 

 

My "slim-to-nil" odds were of the team looking better or improving if as your assumption happens, namely that Allen busts.  If Allen busts I really don't envision any scenario where the team overall improves to such an extent that McD deflects heat calling for his firing.  

 

The offense including all the newbies won't be helping him at that point, which will leave only improvements to the D.  But Kyle's gone, Lorax is in his last season, Hughes is aging, none of them are his players and there isn't much after them that he brought on in the front-7 much less the DL.  Even if Oliver turns into the beast that many insist he'll become, which as you know I don't see, then how much that improves the D with essentially Oliver replacing Kyle remains to be seen, but it's a reach to suggest that it'll be enough to offset the incompetence on the offensive side.  

 

That's how I see it anyway.  

 

Also, we have to start looking forward at that point.  I'm simply not seeing what McBeane have done here.  Lorax is in his last season, Shady will be fortunate to post a good season and is on his last legs too.  Hughes is no spring chicken either.  They were all here when he got here but he hasn't backfilled to their levels.  Gore ain't long for the team.  

 

Who are the ringers that McBeane have brought on?  I like Edmunds and the secondary, but short of those I don't see any pending the development of the rookies.  

 

How would you see the team improving?  

 

 

Edited June 26, 2019 by Ronin

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

2 minutes ago, Ronin said:

 

Yeah, I can see the possibility for confusion there, I should have stated that better.  I'll edit it. 

 

My "slim-to-nil" odds were of the team looking better or improving if as your assumption happens, namely that Allen busts.  If Allen busts I really don't envision any scenario where the team overall improves to such an extent that McD deflects heat calling for his firing.  

 

The offense including all the newbies won't be helping him at that point, which will leave only improvements to the D.  But Kyle's gone, Lorax is in his last season, Hughes is aging, none of them are his players and there isn't much after them that he brought on in the front-7 much less the DL.  Even if Oliver turns into the beast that many insist he'll become, which as you know I don't see, then how much that improves the D with essentially Oliver replacing Kyle remains to be seen, but it's a reach to suggest that it'll be enough to offset the incompetence on the offensive side.  

 

That's how I see it anyway.  

 

I just see a path where the O-line looks real good in run blocking and are giving Allan enough time, but he's missing guys left and right.  And Singletery looks like a good signing.  At some point, could even see them switching to Barkley if that were to happen at least for a couple of games.  But while the amateur fan would be calling for McD's head, think you still look at say the problem is one guy, and with the high failure rate of rookie QB's personally I think would be crazy to then can him and start over again.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

3 hours ago, Ronin said:

 

What are the odds of that happening tho?  

 

I'd put them firmly at slim-to-nil.  If Allen busts as such, I see the offense being ranked around 30th again, I don't see it looking better.  If all works out, Oliver essentially replaces Kyle, again, a tall order, but that would still put us where we were last season on D.  

 

On the other hand, Barkely did post our best game last season as a QB.  Extrapolated over an entire season it would be 24 TDs, 0 INTs, 9.3 YPA, 10.7 AYPA, 117.4 Rating, 16 sacks, and average yardage production.  Just sayin'.  

 

...so now we're going to extrapolate Barkley stats is his ONE start with Bflo and the 7th in his career going back to 2013?....now there is some valuable fertilizer to consider......you pegged 'em right Happy Days......

[K-9]

3 hours ago, Ronin said:

 

What are the odds of that happening tho?  

 

I'd put them firmly at slim-to-nil.  If Allen busts as such, I see the offense being ranked around 30th again, I don't see it looking better.  If all works out, Oliver essentially replaces Kyle, again, a tall order, but that would still put us where we were last season on D.  

 

On the other hand, Barkely did post our best game last season as a QB.  Extrapolated over an entire season it would be 24 TDs, 0 INTs, 9.3 YPA, 10.7 AYPA, 117.4 Rating, 16 sacks, and average yardage production.  Just sayin'.  

That clinched it for me. Barkley needs to be our starting QB. Thanks.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

2 minutes ago, K-9 said:

That clinched it for me. Barkley needs to be our starting QB. Thanks.

 

...LMAO....gotta agree...bet all 8 lines into McBeane's office are lit up with multiple trade offers....two 1sts, 1st and a 2nd.....1st, 2nd & 3rd...a real conundrum.....that poster is really onto something......

[Rocky Landing]

3 hours ago, Ronin said:

 

What are the odds of that happening tho?  

 

I'd put them firmly at slim-to-nil.  If Allen busts as such, I see the offense being ranked around 30th again, I don't see it looking better.  If all works out, Oliver essentially replaces Kyle, again, a tall order, but that would still put us where we were last season on D.  

 

On the other hand, Barkely did post our best game last season as a QB.  Extrapolated over an entire season it would be 24 TDs, 0 INTs, 9.3 YPA, 10.7 AYPA, 117.4 Rating, 16 sacks, and average yardage production.  Just sayin'.  

Gotta make sure to leave out the week 17 game, though...

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

49 minutes ago, Rocky Landing said:

Can’t see him getting fired until after the 2020 season, unless the team absolutely tanks before then. 

.when the Jets fire Gase, I'd make him the 1st interview....

[Punching Bag]

3 hours ago, BubbaT said:

Nothing football related will get him fired this year in my opinion. Nothing. He might be on the hot seat in 2020 but not this year. Misconduct in the workplace is about the only thing I can think of that would trigger a firing and it seems unimagineable to me but one never knows. 

 

So if Coach McD tries to show Kim some wrestling moves and her husband walks in.  Got it.

[Ronin]

24 minutes ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

 

I just see a path where the O-line looks real good in run blocking and are giving Allan enough time, but he's missing guys left and right.  And Singletery looks like a good signing.  At some point, could even see them switching to Barkley if that were to happen at least for a couple of games.  But while the amateur fan would be calling for McD's head, think you still look at say the problem is one guy, and with the high failure rate of rookie QB's personally I think would be crazy to then can him and start over again.

 

Could be, using PFF's ratings, our new and improved OL-men aren't much better in pass protection than last year's OL-men, albeit better but only slightly more so in run-blocking.  

 

The thing is that we were horrific last year in running the ball, I'm not so confident that wasn't due to a diminished Shady, but if we go on pop-narrative here the reason was because our OL sucked at run blocking too, which of course was a big part of Allen's passing woes.  But let's assume that's the case, not sure that still only slightly above-average run-blocking OL-men are going to make that magnitude of a difference.  

 

I see Singletary being a factor in the passing (receiving) game but not much in the rushing game.  Too many guys like him have come and gone w/o the results as such.  He simply doesn't have the speed to much more than an UTM RB but he lacks the size and power to be even average at that.  He was a 3rd-rounder, so if he turns into a 500-receiving yard role player it won't have been a bad pick although I'd have made another.  I don't know why our staff is so enamored with these small-school players, more than any Bills FO in modern history.  

 

I don't see them switching to Barkley, not after that Peterman debacle, and not as a starter anyway.  It would understandably call heavily into question McD's competence as such.  Allen has no excuse and needs the starting reps, he's simply going to have to play all season barring injury.  I can see them yanking Allen so that "he doesn't lose confidence" if he's struggling in a game once, possibly twice, of under the premise that they don't want him to get hurt.  If they start Barkley that won't be a good sign for many reasons.  First, Barkley's a known quanity.  The fact that he posted our best passing game all but literally stepping off of a sofa raises questions as to how horrible our OL really was IMO.  But he's not going to play like that for a string of games.  After all, that Jet D was horrible.  

 

I see Singletary being a factor in the passing (receiving) game but not much in the rushing game.  Too many guys like him have come and gone w/o the results as such.  He simply doesn't have the speed to much more than an UTM RB but he lacks the size and power to be even average at that.  He was a 3rd-rounder, so if he turns into a 500-receiving yard role player it won't have been a bad pick although I'd have made another.  He strikes me as a RB that's going to struggle big-time running the ball in the NFL.  

 

How Knox plays, if he's even healthy, will be more important.  

 

That's how I see it.  

 

 

[Ronin]

50 minutes ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

But while the amateur fan would be calling for McD's head, think you still look at say the problem is one guy, and with the high failure rate of rookie QB's personally I think would be crazy to then can him and start over again.

 

BTW, to your point, that's how pressure in sports works, it almost always starts with the blatantly obvious and with the most superficial indicators.  That's not to say that there aren't good underlying causes that there's often evidence for prior to that point in time, but fans and particularly media who "have to say something" to fill airtime are very reactive, not very proactive or patient for reasons why.  

 

Having said that, I didn't care for McBeane's hire to begin with as both were OJT candidates in these roles with only average prior performance at best in McD's case, Beane being all but entirely unknown.  I simply don't see any signs of their progress.  Whatever they've done to whatever extent it's occurred, has largely been on the backs of the players that have been here prior to their arrival.  I mean look at all the lengthy list of free agents that they've brought in, the ones that have worked out best have largely been risk-free players on low-end contracts.  

 

With the exception of Micah Hyde and this year's crop of free-agents which we don't have the returns yet, the pricey FAs have been Lotulolei and Murphy.  Kroft is next but he's this year's.  Poyer's next at a relatively inexpensive (read low-risk) contract averaging $3/season.  Except for Hyde, the other most expensive FAs brought on either haven't met expectations or have significant injury risk attached to them.  I don't see that as a good long-term building plan by someone that understands how to go about it.  I haven't seen any other team built like that while whiffing on their major draft picks like we have.  

 

 

 

 

[BubbaT]

1 hour ago, Limeaid said:

 

So if Coach McD tries to show Kim some wrestling moves and her husband walks in.  Got it.

Doesnt have to be Kim.

[Punching Bag]

50 minutes ago, BubbaT said:

Doesnt have to be Kim.

I do not think he cares if he puts Jim Overdorf in a head lock.  It actually may be good for him.

[Ronin]

7 hours ago, BubbaT said:

Nothing football related will get him fired this year in my opinion. Nothing. He might be on the hot seat in 2020 but not this year. Misconduct in the workplace is about the only thing I can think of that would trigger a firing and it seems unimagineable to me but one never knows. 

 

So assuminng for the sake of this part of the discusssion, that Allen doesn't improve much and Oliver also shows bust, we finish 6-10 again.  

 

You don't think that the heat would be on to fire McD and/or Beane?  

[BubbaT]

1 hour ago, Limeaid said:

I do not think he cares if he puts Jim Overdorf in a head lock.  It actually may be good for him.

Ask Russ Brandon and the multiple Sabre execs that got canned this year for workplace improprities. Its a fireable offense.  But I know you know that and are just being a dope.

[Rico]

5 minutes ago, Ronin said:

 

So assuminng for the sake of this part of the discusssion, that Allen doesn't improve much and Oliver also shows bust, we finish 6-10 again.  

 

You don't think that the heat would be on to fire McD and/or Beane?  

Sure, during and after 2020 if no big improvement. 

Three straight years with no playoffs > breaking the drought.

[BubbaT]

2 minutes ago, Ronin said:

 

So assuminng for the sake of this part of the discusssion, that Allen doesn't improve much and Oliver also shows bust, we finish 6-10 again.  

 

You don't think that the heat would be on to fire McD and/or Beane?  

Yes. I do not think he gets fired in those circumstances. They are not going to keep turning over Bills coaches every 2 or 3 years, especially one that made the playoffs with Tyrod Taylor and coaxed 6 wins out of a team last year with a rookie QB that is as green as grass and with the worst offensive line and wideouts in team history perhaps. Fans may be impatient and might project big things this year and get bummed when they don't reach it but I doubt management will act till after 2020. I'm hoping the FA's help this year but I'm not convinced signing a ton of them is a viable way to build anything special. It is a time filler till they get better talent on the roster on their own.

[Ronin]

9 minutes ago, Rico said:

Sure, during and after 2020 if no big improvement. 

Three straight years with no playoffs > breaking the drought.

 

Well, "breaking the drought" on its own is pretty meaningless other than to avoid embarrassment for Buffalo.  Everyone knows we weren't truly a playoff caliber team.  And if we were, then how has McD let it deteriorate so quickly.  

 

That's overrated. There has to be a trend towards reaching that goal.  We'll see how things shake out, but I envision absolutely no scenario whereby Allen doesn't make massive strides and the heat for McD and Beane doesn't begin.  If Allen does that then they'll get a stay.  

 

 

12 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Honest question: what is one thing McDermott has shown that looks like an elite coach skill?

 

That is an outstanding question.  

 

Unless someone on my ignore list has answered it I notice that no one else has answered it.  

 

I don't see any such skills.  

 

Same for Beane, I see nothing indicative that he knows what he's doing either.  Not that that should have been unexpected, he's an OJT GM and therefore was a coin-flip at best.  

 

 

 

Edited June 27, 2019 by Ronin

[Rico]

7 minutes ago, Ronin said:

 

Well, "breaking the drought" on its own is pretty meaningless other than to avoid embarrassment for Buffalo.  Everyone knows we weren't truly a playoff caliber team.  And if we were, then how has McD let it deteriorate so quickly.  

 

That's overrated. There has to be a trend towards reaching that goal.  We'll see how things shake out, but I envision absolutely no scenario whereby Allen doesn't make massive strides and the heat for McD and Beane doesn't begin.  If Allen does that then they'll get a stay.  

 

 

 

That is an outstanding question.  

 

Unless someone on my ignore list has answered it I notice that no one else has answered it.  

 

I don't see any such skills.  

 

Same for Beane, I see nothing indicative that he knows what he's doing either.  Not that that should have been unexpected, he's an OJT GM and therefore was a coin-flip at best.  

 

 

 

No, bottom line results are what matter, they made the playoffs, and after 17 years of failure, that’s not overrated at all. Anything else you might add concerning that achievement is just spin.

[Ronin]

10 minutes ago, BubbaT said:

Yes. I do not think he gets fired in those circumstances. They are not going to keep turning over Bills coaches every 2 or 3 years, especially one that made the playoffs with Tyrod Taylor and coaxed 6 wins out of a team last year with a rookie QB that is as green as grass and with the worst offensive line and wideouts in team history perhaps. Fans may be impatient and might project big things this year and get bummed when they don't reach it but I doubt management will act till after 2020. I'm hoping the FA's help this year but I'm not convinced signing a ton of them is a viable way to build anything special. It is a time filler till they get better talent on the roster on their own.

 

Indeed, but after three seasons, even two if we include that first one as a buffer season for reorienting contracts and the like, they've had plenty of time to assemble talent via three drafts now and otherwise two full offseasons of free-agency on their own.  

 

There has to be at least a significant trend in the positive direction.  Keeping a coach that appears headed for mediocrity even if he doesn't crap out doesn't seem like a good biding of time.  To me it more seems like a let's just see if he'll accidentally get it right next year kinda thing.  I don't think that's worth waiting around for if there's a better coach available following the season.  

 

That's one of the problems we've had with QBs and coaches, instead of making decisions in years where one is available we always seem to passover a year where that's the case and then have less-than-optimal ones to choose from.  That was the case with Manuel, instead of taking Russell Wilson, whom I was shocked to still see around in the 3rd although I'd have taken him in the 2nd easily, we waited until the following season and then reached for Manuel in a year when there really were no good QB prospects.  

 

Even with Allen, we could have realized that Taylor wasn't a starter and taken Mahomes or Watson, either one.  They decided that we didn't need a QB and then they felt that their hand was forced in a year with a lot of risky QBs again.  As I've said, I'd have used that mass of picks to build the OL and draft Lock this year.  Kind of the opposite, but point being that they drafted from a draft wedged in between two better QB drafts again.  

 

Part of building a team is getting optimal value and you don't do that by drafting a position in a draft that is weak for that position.  You do it by drafting positions that are rich in that position in any draft.  

 

I think they've had enough time to at least get to average all-around if it's going to ever happen on a consistent basis.  

9 minutes ago, Rico said:

No, bottom line results are what matter, they made the playoffs, and after 17 years of failure, that’s not overrated at all. Anything else you might add concerning that achievement is just spin.

 

OK

 

Since you didn't realize, apparently, we had the 22nd ranked scoring offense, the 29th ranked yardage offense, the 18th scoring defense and the 26th yardage defense, and we needed another team to upset their opponent in order for us to "make the playoffs" in which we were summarily ousted.  

 

I guess we simply have different definitions of overrated, but there are plenty of people in both the fans and media, even some here, that have said the same.  

 

Everyone's entitled to their opinion however, but good luck finding another team that made the playoffs with rankings like that, ever.  

[Rico]

14 minutes ago, Ronin said:

 

Indeed, but after three seasons, even two if we include that first one as a buffer season for reorienting contracts and the like, they've had plenty of time to assemble talent via three drafts now and otherwise two full offseasons of free-agency on their own.  

 

There has to be at least a significant trend in the positive direction.  Keeping a coach that appears headed for mediocrity even if he doesn't crap out doesn't seem like a good biding of time.  To me it more seems like a let's just see if he'll accidentally get it right next year kinda thing.  I don't think that's worth waiting around for if there's a better coach available following the season.  

 

That's one of the problems we've had with QBs and coaches, instead of making decisions in years where one is available we always seem to passover a year where that's the case and then have less-than-optimal ones to choose from.  That was the case with Manuel, instead of taking Russell Wilson, whom I was shocked to still see around in the 3rd although I'd have taken him in the 2nd easily, we waited until the following season and then reached for Manuel in a year when there really were no good QB prospects.  

 

Even with Allen, we could have realized that Taylor wasn't a starter and taken Mahomes or Watson, either one.  They decided that we didn't need a QB and then they felt that their hand was forced in a year with a lot of risky QBs again.  As I've said, I'd have used that mass of picks to build the OL and draft Lock this year.  Kind of the opposite, but point being that they drafted from a draft wedged in between two better QB drafts again.  

 

Part of building a team is getting optimal value and you don't do that by drafting a position in a draft that is weak for that position.  You do it by drafting positions that are rich in that position in any draft.  

 

I think they've had enough time to at least get to average all-around if it's going to ever happen on a consistent basis.  

 

OK

 

Since you didn't realize, apparently, we had the 22nd ranked scoring offense, the 29th ranked yardage offense, the 18th scoring defense and the 26th yardage defense, and we needed another team to upset their opponent in order for us to "make the playoffs" in which we were summarily ousted.  

 

I guess we simply have different definitions of overrated, but there are plenty of people in both the fans and media, even some here, that have said the same.  

 

Everyone's entitled to their opinion however, but good luck finding another team that made the playoffs with rankings like that, ever.  

“Stats are for losers.”

- Bill Belichick

[Ethan in Cleveland]

50 minutes ago, BubbaT said:

Yes. I do not think he gets fired in those circumstances. They are not going to keep turning over Bills coaches every 2 or 3 years, especially one that made the playoffs with Tyrod Taylor and coaxed 6 wins out of a team last year with a rookie QB that is as green as grass and with the worst offensive line and wideouts in team history perhaps. Fans may be impatient and might project big things this year and get bummed when they don't reach it but I doubt management will act till after 2020. I'm hoping the FA's help this year but I'm not convinced signing a ton of them is a viable way to build anything special. It is a time filler till they get better talent on the roster on their own.

Hmmm. So if not signing a bunch of FA's is not the way to go, then what was the purpose of 2018? 

I'm not saying it was the right thing to do. But that was their plan. If it doesn't work, should they not be held accountable?  I will answer that for you. It all depends on Allen. If he looks good and the FAs bomb then they still keep their jobs. If Allen looks like a bust then one or both of them should be gone. 

This board can't rip Whaley and Nix for EJ and TT and then let McDermott and Beane have a pass.

[downunderbill]

47 minutes ago, Ronin said:

 

Indeed, but after three seasons, even two if we include that first one as a buffer season for reorienting contracts and the like, they've had plenty of time to assemble talent via three drafts now and otherwise two full offseasons of free-agency on their own.  

 

There has to be at least a significant trend in the positive direction.  Keeping a coach that appears headed for mediocrity even if he doesn't crap out doesn't seem like a good biding of time.  To me it more seems like a let's just see if he'll accidentally get it right next year kinda thing.  I don't think that's worth waiting around for if there's a better coach available following the season.  

 

That's one of the problems we've had with QBs and coaches, instead of making decisions in years where one is available we always seem to passover a year where that's the case and then have less-than-optimal ones to choose from.  That was the case with Manuel, instead of taking Russell Wilson, whom I was shocked to still see around in the 3rd although I'd have taken him in the 2nd easily, we waited until the following season and then reached for Manuel in a year when there really were no good QB prospects.  

 

Even with Allen, we could have realized that Taylor wasn't a starter and taken Mahomes or Watson, either one.  They decided that we didn't need a QB and then they felt that their hand was forced in a year with a lot of risky QBs again.  As I've said, I'd have used that mass of picks to build the OL and draft Lock this year.  Kind of the opposite, but point being that they drafted from a draft wedged in between two better QB drafts again.  

 

Part of building a team is getting optimal value and you don't do that by drafting a position in a draft that is weak for that position.  You do it by drafting positions that are rich in that position in any draft.  

 

I think they've had enough time to at least get to average all-around if it's going to ever happen on a consistent basis.  

 

OK

 

Since you didn't realize, apparently, we had the 22nd ranked scoring offense, the 29th ranked yardage offense, the 18th scoring defense and the 26th yardage defense, and we needed another team to upset their opponent in order for us to "make the playoffs" in which we were summarily ousted.  

 

I guess we simply have different definitions of overrated, but there are plenty of people in both the fans and media, even some here, that have said the same.  

 

Everyone's entitled to their opinion however, but good luck finding another team that made the playoffs with rankings like that, ever.  

 

If the Bills make the playoffs this year, or Allen puts together a nice season, just how disappointed are you going to be?

I don't think I've read a positive post yet.

[Ronin]

46 minutes ago, Rico said:

“Stats are for losers.”

- Bill Belichick

 

Gee, what a wonderfully insightful critically well-thought out response.  

 

Nicely done.  I look forward to more original deeply inspiring insights from you in the future.  

[BubbaT]

22 minutes ago, Ethan in Portland said:

Hmmm. So if not signing a bunch of FA's is not the way to go, then what was the purpose of 2018? 

I'm not saying it was the right thing to do. But that was their plan. If it doesn't work, should they not be held accountable?  I will answer that for you. It all depends on Allen. If he looks good and the FAs bomb then they still keep their jobs. If Allen looks like a bust then one or both of them should be gone. 

This board can't rip Whaley and Nix for EJ and TT and then let McDermott and Beane have a pass.

I never said it wasnt the way to go. Where did I say that? I think they had to do that. They stripped it down to the studs and there was nothing left to build on but marginal OL's and unproven wideouts. They have to try to improve it as best as they can. This will allow them to compete. The FA deals are short for a reason: they can move on and draft their own guys to replace some of the FAs. Just remember, a team had to let these guys go. They werent good enough where they came from. Not many of them were due to finances as these deals arent really that big (with a few exceptions). I just don't think you are looking at a championship level team here yet.  To expect a significant playoff run or fire the coach is, I think (just my opinion) too polarized a position to be in. I want to see improvement too. I hope we are talking extensions for all at the end of 2019 myself. I just don't see them moving on from this coach till after the 2020 season if things havent improved or have regressed (especially on D where they have been pretty solid in McD's tenure). 

 

    

[Ronin]

15 minutes ago, downunderbill said:

 

If the Bills make the playoffs this year, or Allen puts together a nice season, just how disappointed are you going to be?

I don't think I've read a positive post yet.

 

I'll be absolutely jacked if Allen puts together a nice season.  I'll be jacked if he does that and we go only 8-8 and miss the playoffs.  As a personality Allen's tops.  You couldn't ask for a better team leader.  

 

As to positive posts, when there's something that I consider to be positive to such an extent that it warrants keeping this coach or GM I'll be among the first to say so.  Just not seeing it at this point.  

 

What I"m curious about is how all of the people here that insist that Allen's going to be among the best this year, that Oliver's going to be the next Darnold, that Singletary's going to replace Shady, that our WRs are finally a good batch, that Knox and/or Kroft will not be injured this season, ditto for Morse, etc., are going to react if/when that all turns out to not be the case.  

 

Oh wait, I know how that'll look, we see it every three years or so.  As you were.  

 

Sorry that my takes bother you.  Not sure why.  It's only discussion.  Sounds like a personal problem to me.  

 

 

Edited June 27, 2019 by Ronin

[downunderbill]

1 minute ago, Ronin said:

 

I'll be absolutely jacked if Allen puts together a nice season.  

 

As to positive posts, when there's something that I consider to be positive to such an extent that it warrants keeping this coach or GM I'll be among the first to say so.  Just not seeing it at this point.  

 

What I"m curious about is how all of the people here that insist that Allen's going to be among the best this year, that Oliver's going to be the next Darnold, that Singletary's going to replace Shady, that our WRs are finally a good batch, that Knox and/or Kroft will not be injured this season, ditto for Morse, etc., are going to react if/when that all turns out to not be the case.  

 

Oh wait, I know how that'll look, we see it every three years or so.  As you were.  

 

Sorry that my takes bother you.  Not sure why.  It's only discussion.  Sounds like a personal problem to me.  

 

What makes you think your posting bothers me. It's merely an observation backed by endless examples.

 

Every time I see Allens name mentioned I'm almost excited for an extremely long-winded rant about how everyone and everything sucks. The same thing over and over and over again.

 

[Rocky Landing]

19 minutes ago, downunderbill said:

 

What makes you think your posting bothers me. It's merely an observation backed by endless examples.

 

Every time I see Allens name mentioned I'm almost excited for an extremely long-winded rant about how everyone and everything sucks. The same thing over and over and over again.

 

The thing of it is that Ronin will egregiously, and willfully misrepresent things—stats, plays, records, etc.— to push his crusade. He’s utterly intellectually dishonest. 

 

And he’s constantly pushing the narrative that those who disagree with him are “taking it personally,”or “can’t handle discussion,” or “sorry you can’t get on with your life” (ha actually said that to somebody!) All of which would lead me to believe that he really wants to get under your skin. Its at the top of his agenda. 

[BigBuff423]

13 hours ago, Ronin said:

 

 

Since you didn't realize, apparently, we had the 22nd ranked scoring offense, the 29th ranked yardage offense, the 18th scoring defense and the 26th yardage defense, and we needed another team to upset their opponent in order for us to "make the playoffs" in which we were summarily ousted.  

 

I guess we simply have different definitions of overrated, but there are plenty of people in both the fans and media, even some here, that have said the same.  

 

Everyone's entitled to their opinion however, but good luck finding another team that made the playoffs with rankings like that, ever.  

 

To your point, here's an entire list of other teams, many of which were worse than the Bills were in 2017, that made the playoffs (pay attention to the last one):

 

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/958403-the-25-worst-playoff-teams-in-nfl-history#slide25

 

You can now let this sleeping dog lie, or you can keep poking at something where we can agree to disagree.

[reddogblitz]

3 hours ago, BigBuff423 said:

 

To your point, here's an entire list of other teams, many of which were worse than the Bills were in 2017, that made the playoffs (pay attention to the last one):

 

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/958403-the-25-worst-playoff-teams-in-nfl-history#slide25

 

You can now let this sleeping dog lie, or you can keep poking at something where we can agree to disagree.

 

Every year is different and you have to out perform other teams to get in POs.  There have been plenty of years in the drought where it was a down year and 9-7 would get us in, but we couldn't even get close.

 

The 2017 team DID out perform the other teams.  I'm proud of that.   There is no litmus test of playoffs beyond out perform everyone else which we did.

 

There is better beer than this to cry in.

[BigBuff423]

3 hours ago, reddogblitz said:

 

Every year is different and you have to out perform other teams to get in POs.  There have been plenty of years in the drought where it was a down year and 9-7 would get us in, but we couldn't even get close.

 

The 2017 team DID out perform the other teams.  I'm proud of that.   There is no litmus test of playoffs beyond out perform everyone else which we did.

 

There is better beer than this to cry in.

 

I appreciate your perspective and I have no issue with saying it took luck and some key timing to get them into the playoffs - and be happy with the result. 

 

My response was to the statement when the poster said “good luck” finding a team who made it into the playoffs with worse stats. To wit; my link to the article from a few years ago that ranked 25 teams who statistically were pretty bad to “meh” and made the playoffs. It was my way of saying, “They weren’t great, they were just ‘good enough’” and that not giving McD credit for breaking the drought with that team, is unjustified while giving him too much credit to the point of an extension isn’t logical either. 

[reddogblitz]

1 minute ago, BigBuff423 said:

 

I appreciate your perspective and I have no issue with saying it took luck and some key timing to get them into the playoffs - and be happy with the result. 

 

My response was to the statement when the poster said “good luck” finding a team who made it into the playoffs with worse stats. To wit; my link to the article from a few years ago that ranked 25 teams who statistically were pretty bad to “meh” and made the playoffs. It was my way of saying, “They weren’t great, they were just ‘good enough’” and that not giving McD credit for breaking the drought with that team, is unjustified while giving him too much credit to the point of an extension isn’t logical either. 

 

Right.  I give 'em credit because the team in 2017 came up big when needed to win a few games like Tampa Bay and Indianapolis that past teams seemed to find a way to lose.

 

Win a playoff game and we can start talking about maybe considering an extension.