John Warrow’s High Praise For Beane & McDermott Regime

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, dave mcbride said:

??

 

KC’s 2017 offense was 4th in offensive DVOA, 6th in points, and 5th in yards. You can’t cherry pick one game — and the Bills game no less (homer goggles alert!) — and conflate it with an entire season. They had a near-elite offense overall that year.

 

Sixth in scoring is not that near to elite...........elite is top 2.  

 

Was the Bills 2016 offense near-elite?   Not even I make that argument.

 

When Rex was fired in 2016 the Bills offense was 7th in the NFL in scoring and had committed the fewest turnovers by any team thru that point in a season since the merger and was coming off a team record offensive yardage day against Miami.

 

But the narrative in this thread is that McDermott didn't inherit much..........which is 100% false..........he inherited the best offense the Bills had put on the field since their second SB season.

 

He chose to break it up and play Jauron Ball with Dennison.

 

[oldmanfan]

19 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Sixth in scoring is not that near to elite...........elite is top 2.  

 

Was the Bills 2016 offense near-elite?   Not even I make that argument.

 

When Rex was fired in 2016 the Bills offense was 7th in the NFL in scoring and had committed the fewest turnovers by any team thru that point in a season since the merger and was coming off a team record offensive yardage day against Miami.

 

But the narrative in this thread is that McDermott didn't inherit much..........which is 100% false..........he inherited the best offense the Bills had put on the field since their second SB season.

 

He chose to break it up and play Jauron Ball with Dennison.

 

And got them to the playoffs for the first time in17 years.  

[BADOLBILZ]

3 hours ago, Chemical said:

If Dee Ford doesn’t go Offside and Mahomes wins the super bowl are these idiots saying “He has a Super Bowl caliber supporting cast! The Bills don’t win the super bowl. He would not be the same player if we drafted him. He would not have won the super bowl!”

 

 

One of the more impressive things with Mahomes was that he had the worst defense in football and yet he didn't let the pressure of having to outscore opponents weigh on him.

 

I think playing that style helps build late game clutch ability in players..............and its one of the reasons that you didn't see much of it in Marty Ball or Jauron Ball type QB's...........when the pressure to push the ball downfield only comes at the end of games its not comfortable.

 

Very interested to see how Allen progresses as a late game QB...........he was 0-2 on last minute drive to tie/win opportunities this past year.

 

[BADOLBILZ]

2 hours ago, K-9 said:

Mahomes is obviously good enough to win the SB now, but he can't do it by himself. Not sure what your point is. He may not have a SB caliber supporting cast just yet, especially on defense, but there were three Pro Bowlers (Hill, Kelce, Hunt) at skill positions to pitch to and Andy Reid who knows how to scheme guys open when he showed up. 

 

If you really, honestly think Mahomes would have won the SB or pitched 50 TD passes with a stable of Deonte Thompson, Zay Jones, Charles Clay, and Shady with Rick Dennison as the architect, what can I say? Other than I question your ability to be judging anyone's idiocy around here. 

 

1. Mahomes took the Patriots to OT playing opposite the worst defense in the NFL.

 

2. And yeah the choices that McBeane made at WR..........not retaining Watkins, Woods and Goodwin and drafting Zay and trading for KB and Matthews were atrocious............but so was trading the Mahomes pick.

 

3. And btw.........what you CAN say is that Dennison won a SB as an OC.

 

Excuse it all you want but it happens.     Other great aspects of a team(defense, QB) can trump middling coaching. 

[Shaw66]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

But the narrative in this thread is that McDermott didn't inherit much..........which is 100% false..........he inherited the best offense the Bills had put on the field since their second SB season.

 

He chose to break it up and play Jauron Ball with Dennison.

 

A couple of things:

 

First, as rancorous as the discussion as been in this thread, several people are posting here who know a lot of football, and the discussion, despite all the sniping, has been pretty interesting.  Thanks to all.

 

I think what I've quoted here goes to back to the fundamental point that's been kicked around here:  What choices did the new coach and the new GM have after first Rex then Whaley were booted?   Did they have only one choice or more than one?   Did they make the right choice?

 

I think you're correct that the Bills had talent to work with when the new guys started, and I think some new leadership would have built from what they had.  Every new leader would have made a new QB a priority.  Some would have gone after the best available first round guy in 2017, some would have been more cautious, as McDermott was with a lame duck GM.  (I have to believe that McD knew he was getting a new GM.   It had to be part of the discussion when he was hired - how much control did he have, etc.  Given that Whaley was gone the day after the draft, it seems obvious that the decision about Whaley, at least tentatively, had been made a few months earlier.  I suppose McD could have gone to the Pegulas after being on board for a month or two and said that he loved Whaley and wanted to keep him, but unless that had happened, Whaley's ticket out of town had already been punched.)   So knowing he was getting a new GM, seeing a good crop of QBs coming up in the 2018 draft, and not being so sure about either Mahomes or Watson, McD chose to wait.  

 

As for whether to do a total rebuild, different coaches would have decided different things.   I think that, given his overriding philosophy about the kind of players he wanted, McD probably always was likely to rebuild.   If the Pegulas were smart about it, and I'd think they were, after how poorly they'd vetted Rex, they would have asked McD that question.   McD's answer clearly would have been "I need a team full of guys who have the attitude, the mindset, the character I think is essential.  I will use as much of the first year here to figure out how many of the guys we currently have fit that mold.  If there are a lot, great.  My guess is there aren't many, and I'll want to rebuild.   I'll need a GM with the same attitude."

 

So once the Pegulas decided that McD was their guy, the die was cast - the Bills were rebuilding.  Whether someone else w.  ould have built from what the Bills had is relevant only to a discussion of whether the Pegulas picked the right coach.    And that discussion, in my opinion, is pretty pointless, because to have that discussion today we have to ascribe TWO YEARS of front office and coaching decisions to the new regime AND make so many assumptions it's useless.   You have to start with drafting Mahomes or Watson, keeping some combination of Watkins, Woods, Glenn, Dareus and several lesser names, stripping out White, maybe Power and Hyde, Edmunds and a couple of others.  Then you have to make assumptions about how the new QB would have developed with an imaginary coach and a lesser collection of skill players around him.   There are simply too any scenarios to make almost any scenario worth talking about. 

 

With perhaps one exception:  I'd like to see the alternate universe where Anthony Lynn got the job and drafted either Mahomes or Watson.  Lynn had a head start on McD and everyone else, and maybe Lynn would have made something click with Watkins and Woods.   But even the Lynn discussion becomes pretty pointless, because what would have happened on the other side of the ball is poor guess work. 

 

So go back to the one scenario we do know:  McD is hired as head coach.   You say "he chose to play Jauron ball with Dennison."   Starting from the assumptions that he's going to rebuild, he doesn't have a QB, he knows Watkins is not a team player and will  be leaving, he has a great running back and he thinks he can have a pretty good defense if he gets a couple of safeties, playing Jauron ball, as you say, was exactly the right decision - maybe not for the long term, but for the short-term while you're waiting to assemble a whole new offense from pieces you don't have yet.   And, lo and behold, playing Jauron ball got his team to the playoffs.   That was a really, really good decision.   

 

I come back to the same place I've been for months.  McD hasn't proved anything yet, because it's all about winning and he hasn't demonstrated that he can win.   But I can see what he's been doing and it makes sense to me, not that it's the only way someone might have proceeded with the hand he was dealt, but it was one way to proceed.  And it looks like he's making process at what he intended to do, so the fact that he hasn't been a big winner yet, and might not even be a big winner in 2019, doesn't trouble me.   Absent a 2019 implosion, 2020 is the year that matters.  

[K-9]

36 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

1. Mahomes took the Patriots to OT playing opposite the worst defense in the NFL.

 

2. And yeah the choices that McBeane made at WR..........not retaining Watkins, Woods and Goodwin and drafting Zay and trading for KB and Matthews were atrocious............but so was trading the Mahomes pick.

 

3. And btw.........what you CAN say is that Dennison won a SB as an OC.

 

Excuse it all you want but it happens.     Other great aspects of a team(defense, QB) can trump middling coaching. 

There’s a difference between excusing a decision and making up complete fantasies to support criticism of them. 

 

But it’s a safe space to occupy. I think I’ll try it:

 

If we had Mahomes, we would have won the Super Bowl by now! 

 

Edit: forgot to add how specious it is to say Dennison won a SB as an OC. But I’ll give him credit for being smart enough to stay out of Peyton Manning’s way. 

Edited June 23, 2019 by K-9

[SoTier]

2 hours ago, K-9 said:

Mahomes is obviously good enough to win the SB now, but he can't do it by himself. Not sure what your point is. He may not have a SB caliber supporting cast just yet, especially on defense, but there were three Pro Bowlers (Hill, Kelce, Hunt) at skill positions to pitch to and Andy Reid who knows how to scheme guys open when he showed up. 

 

If you really, honestly think Mahomes would have won the SB or pitched 50 TD passes with a stable of Deonte Thompson, Zay Jones, Charles Clay, and Shady with Rick Dennison as the architect, what can I say? Other than I question your ability to be judging anyone's idiocy around here. 

 

Bado didn't write that at all.  I was briefly tempted to suggest that you try rereading what he wrote, this time for comprehension of the entire thought, not just to decipher the individual words ... but we both know deliberately misunderstanding  what was written is one of your favorite tactics for attacking posters you dislike.

 

Put this in your pipe and smoke it: the same people responsible for the substandard offenses the Bills fielded in 2017 and 2018 are also responsible for the 2019 offense.  If it doesn't matter whether or not the Bills goofed in passing on Mahomes because he wouldn't have been nearly as good on the Bills as he was with the Chiefs, what chance does Josh Allen, who has to improve in his game a whole lot to just to become a decent NFL QB, have of becoming one any time in the near future?

 

[K-9]

4 minutes ago, SoTier said:

 

Bado didn't write that at all.  I was briefly tempted to suggest that you try rereading what he wrote, this time for comprehension of the entire thought, not just to decipher the individual words ... but we both know deliberately misunderstanding  what was written is one of your favorite tactics for attacking posters you dislike.

 

Put this in your pipe and smoke it: the same people responsible for the substandard offenses the Bills fielded in 2017 and 2018 are also responsible for the 2019 offense.  If it doesn't matter whether or not the Bills goofed in passing on Mahomes because he wouldn't have been nearly as good on the Bills as he was with the Chiefs, what chance does Josh Allen, who has to improve in his game a whole lot to just to become a decent NFL QB, have of becoming one any time in the near future?

 

That’s nice, but I was quoting Chemical. 

 

What was that about reading comprehension?

 

As for the rest of it, who said it doesn’t matter that they passed on Mahomes. Everything matters, including their deliberate strategy to go in an entirely different direction. 

 

Attacking posters I disagree with? That’s rich coming from you. 

Edited June 23, 2019 by K-9

[SoTier]

1 hour ago, oldmanfan said:

And got them to the playoffs for the first time in17 years.  

 

Even a blind squirrel finds a nut every 20 years or so.

4 minutes ago, K-9 said:

That’s nice, but I was quoting chemical. 

 

Mea culpa.

[K-9]

4 minutes ago, SoTier said:

 

Even a blind squirrel finds a nut every 20 years or so.

 

Mea culpa.

No worries. Happens to everyone around here.

[oldmanfan]

44 minutes ago, SoTier said:

 

Bado didn't write that at all.  I was briefly tempted to suggest that you try rereading what he wrote, this time for comprehension of the entire thought, not just to decipher the individual words ... but we both know deliberately misunderstanding  what was written is one of your favorite tactics for attacking posters you dislike.

 

Put this in your pipe and smoke it: the same people responsible for the substandard offenses the Bills fielded in 2017 and 2018 are also responsible for the 2019 offense.  If it doesn't matter whether or not the Bills goofed in passing on Mahomes because he wouldn't have been nearly as good on the Bills as he was with the Chiefs, what chance does Josh Allen, who has to improve in his game a whole lot to just to become a decent NFL QB, have of becoming one any time in the near future?

 

Denison was OC in 17.  Daboll last year and this coming year.  The QBs in 17 vs. 18/19 are different.  New O line coach this year vs. the last two.  And so on.  What are you talking about?

Edited June 23, 2019 by oldmanfan

[GunnerBill]

54 minutes ago, K-9 said:

There’s a difference between excusing a decision and making up complete fantasies to support criticism of them. 

 

But it’s a safe space to occupy. I think I’ll try it:

 

If we had Mahomes, we would have won the Super Bowl by now! 

 

Edit: forgot to add how specious it is to say Dennison won a SB as an OC. But I’ll give him credit for being smart enough to stay out of Peyton Manning’s way. 

 

Actually Manning was the worst starting QB in the NFL the year the Broncos won the Superbowl. 

[Patrick Duffy]

4 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Actually Manning was the worst starting QB in the NFL the year the Broncos won the Superbowl. 

Wasn't that the year he had the shoulder problem or whatever injury it was? May have been neck, can't quite remember.....

[GunnerBill]

Just now, Patrick_Duffy said:

Wasn't that the year he had the shoulder problem or whatever injury it was? May have been neck, can't quite remember.....

 

He had everything. His body had broken down totally about week 13 the previous year. They were playing a hide the Quarterback offense their SB year. That said having Manning out there is still an advantage because he was still checking them in and out of the right plays. 

[oldmanfan]

5 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

He had everything. His body had broken down totally about week 13 the previous year. They were playing a hide the Quarterback offense their SB year. That said having Manning out there is still an advantage because he was still checking them in and out of the right plays. 

Wasn't that also the year their defense played lights out?

[HappyDays]

7 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

That said having Manning out there is still an advantage because he was still checking them in and out of the right plays. 

 

On that point, I don't understand why every team with a young QB isn't doing what McVay does. Until the league prohibits it, every coach in the league should be in their young QB's ear before the snap and telling them what to do.

[Shaw66]

Just now, HappyDays said:

 

On that point, I don't understand why every team with a young QB isn't doing what McVay does. Until the league prohibits it, every coach in the league should be in their young QB's ear before the snap and telling them what to do.

Like everything else, teams adjust.  Defenses last season were disguising their defenses and shifting out when the two-way radio went silent.  

[Augie]

10 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

He had everything. His body had broken down totally about week 13 the previous year. They were playing a hide the Quarterback offense their SB year. That said having Manning out there is still an advantage because he was still checking them in and out of the right plays. 

 

The body was completely shot, but so much of the game is mental he was able to get by. Barely. 

[dave mcbride]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

1. Mahomes took the Patriots to OT playing opposite the worst defense in the NFL.

 

2. And yeah the choices that McBeane made at WR..........not retaining Watkins, Woods and Goodwin and drafting Zay and trading for KB and Matthews were atrocious............but so was trading the Mahomes pick.

 

3. And btw.........what you CAN say is that Dennison won a SB as an OC.

 

Excuse it all you want but it happens.     Other great aspects of a team(defense, QB) can trump middling coaching. 

What’s with the hyperbole? They were bad but not the worst. https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamdef

2 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Sixth in scoring is not that near to elite...........elite is top 2.  

 

Was the Bills 2016 offense near-elite?   Not even I make that argument.

 

When Rex was fired in 2016 the Bills offense was 7th in the NFL in scoring and had committed the fewest turnovers by any team thru that point in a season since the merger and was coming off a team record offensive yardage day against Miami.

 

But the narrative in this thread is that McDermott didn't inherit much..........which is 100% false..........he inherited the best offense the Bills had put on the field since their second SB season.

 

He chose to break it up and play Jauron Ball with Dennison.

 

Scoring? Focus on DVOA. Fourth. 

[Rico]

3 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

I wouldn't say it don't mean a thing.    You didn't enjoy the early 1990's as a Bills fan?  Not a fan of Jimbo?

 

 

Absolutely loved it, loved them, and loved Jimbo... but the bottom line is they didn't get the job done.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

1 hour ago, K-9 said:

There’s a difference between excusing a decision and making up complete fantasies to support criticism of them. 

 

But it’s a safe space to occupy. I think I’ll try it:

 

If we had Mahomes, we would have won the Super Bowl by now! 

 

Edit: forgot to add how specious it is to say Dennison won a SB as an OC. But I’ll give him credit for being smart enough to stay out of Peyton Manning’s way. 

...um...well okay......the Mahomes saga.....the kid defies all "Sophomore Slump" trepidations and is MVP....so let's back up to how badly Bflo blew the pick...how many TBD picking experts said "no way" because he was a product of the "leper like Air Raid" and "NO Air Raid QB EVER makes it in the NFL"?...."crickets" as far as mea cuplas but they're sure as hell chastizing Bflo.....fraudulent you say?...Mahomes happened to defy most odds as well as having Andy as his QB guru......

Edited June 23, 2019 by OldTimeAFLGuy

[ColoradoBills]

2 hours ago, SoTier said:

 

 

Put this in your pipe and smoke it: the same people responsible for the substandard offenses the Bills fielded in 2017 and 2018 are also responsible for the 2019 offense.  If it doesn't matter whether or not the Bills goofed in passing on Mahomes because he wouldn't have been nearly as good on the Bills as he was with the Chiefs, what chance does Josh Allen, who has to improve in his game a whole lot to just to become a decent NFL QB, have of becoming one any time in the near future?

 

 

I prefer edibles myself........can't wait to see the 2019 offense.  To paraphrase Broadway Joe, "I guarantee the Bills offense will be better than last year".

[Shaw66]

23 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

I prefer edibles myself........can't wait to see the 2019 offense.  To paraphrase Broadway Joe, "I guarantee the Bills offense will be better than last year".

Ah, Joe Willie.  Those were the days when there was no system, no process.  Take a guy with an arm and a good gut feeling for the game and turn him loose!   That's Mahomes, and I expect people are going to see that that is Allen, too.  

[ColoradoBills]

13 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Ah, Joe Willie.  Those were the days when there was no system, no process.  Take a guy with an arm and a good gut feeling for the game and turn him loose!   That's Mahomes, and I expect people are going to see that that is Allen, too.  

 

Be a nice way to start this season beating the Jets.

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, Rico said:

Absolutely loved it, loved them, and loved Jimbo... but the bottom line is they didn't get the job done.

 

Fair enough.

 

Peyton Manning got it done twice.........I don't recall him being a favorite of yours.?

[BADOLBILZ]

2 hours ago, dave mcbride said:

What’s with the hyperbole? They were bad but not the worst. https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamdef

Scoring? Focus on DVOA. Fourth. 

 

 

Dave...........all you EVER talk about is DVOA.......it is a nice stat that puts you in the ball park I believe.........but it's actually not universally accepted as the singular defining stat that you try to make it out to be.

 

Point differential is also a really good stat traditionally..............and that's because scoring is also a very telling stat........particularly on game day.

 

I like my offense to score points and my defense to prevent them.   

[BADOLBILZ]

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

He had everything. His body had broken down totally about week 13 the previous year. They were playing a hide the Quarterback offense their SB year. That said having Manning out there is still an advantage because he was still checking them in and out of the right plays. 

 

 

Gotta' love the experts in here that only have a vague recollection of the SB champion from a few years ago and also don't know how to use a search engine.

 

@K-9 thought Manning was still great that year. 

 

How can you be so sure what QB is good enough to win a SB if you don't even follow the league closely enough to remember a few years ago?

 

That's inexcusably ignorant at this depth of discussion.

[Rico]

17 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Fair enough.

 

Peyton Manning got it done twice.........I don't recall him being a favorite of yours.?

Two of the worst seasons ever. I stopped gambling on football in early 2007.

 

[K-9]

3 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Actually Manning was the worst starting QB in the NFL the year the Broncos won the Superbowl. 

He still ran that offense, regardless. My post wasn’t a compliment to a Manning clearly in decline. It was that Dennison was just along for the ride. 

[K-9]

3 hours ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

...um...well okay......the Mahomes saga.....the kid defies all "Sophomore Slump" trepidations and is MVP....so let's back up to how badly Bflo blew the pick...how many TBD picking experts said "no way" because he was a product of the "leper like Air Raid" and "NO Air Raid QB EVER makes it in the NFL"?...."crickets" as far as mea cuplas but they're sure as hell chastizing Bflo.....fraudulent you say?...Mahomes happened to defy most odds as well as having Andy as his QB guru......

Oh there was no shortage of people around here knocking him as a prospect. But I wasn’t one of them. I hadn’t seen enough of him to comment one way or the other. 

 

I’d be more interested in those that were pounding the table for him. I remember a couple at the time, but that’s about it. Now, everybody acts like they knew it all the time. World is full of GMs with 20/20 hindsight. 

 

None of that is the point of my post though. The argument is whether or not Mahomes would have enjoyed the same immediate success here as he has in KC. I say no way for reasons I’ve already stated. 

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Gotta' love the experts in here that only have a vague recollection of the SB champion from a few years ago and also don't know how to use a search engine.

 

@K-9 thought Manning was still great that year. 

 

How can you be so sure what QB is good enough to win a SB if you don't even follow the league closely enough to remember a few years ago?

 

That's inexcusably ignorant at this depth of discussion.

Wrong again. I said Rick Dennison.knew to stay out of his way. That was Manning’s offense. Your specious point was that since Dennison has a SB ring as an OC,  he was somehow a great OC, and Mahomes would have been lights out with him. That’s too funny for words.

 

Edit: As it turns out, Dennison didn't even call plays that year, it was Kubiak. Makes your assertion even funnier. More inaccurate, but funnier none the less. 

Edited June 23, 2019 by K-9

[Shaw66]

1 hour ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

Be a nice way to start this season beating the Jets.

I'll be there.   

 

Waiting for someone to invite back the next week to see them beat the Giants.  Then I'll be at the home opener.

 

3-0 when the Pats come to town.   I'm ready!!!

[GunnerBill]

3 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

Wasn't that also the year their defense played lights out?

 

Yea their defense balled out. And obviously the offense was as much Kubiak as it was Dennison. But the idea floated on these boards that Rick Dennison is some sort of incompetent idiot who held the 2017 Bills offense back is simply fantasy. I would say it is fair to say he didn't raise it above the sum of its parts but he got what was there talent wise in my opinion. He was net neutral. 

Edited June 23, 2019 by GunnerBill

[K-9]

4 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

Denison was OC in 17.  Daboll last year and this coming year.  The QBs in 17 vs. 18/19 are different.  New O line coach this year vs. the last two.  And so on.  What are you talking about?

If I had to guess, I say he's speaking of those in charge of delegating authority. Like McD in the coaches he hires and Beane in the players he procures. 

[LSHMEAB]

44 minutes ago, K-9 said:

Oh there was no shortage of people around here knocking him as a prospect. But I wasn’t one of them. I hadn’t seen enough of him to comment one way or the other. 

 

I’d be more interested in those that were pounding the table for him. I remember a couple at the time, but that’s about it. Now, everybody acts like they knew it all the time. World is full of GMs with 20/20 hindsight. 

 

Respectfully never understood this argument. None of us are paid to make decisions. Fan clamor for this player or that player is irrelevant. McD chose to pass on Mahomes and Watson, so that's on him. Beane/McDermott went with Allen a year later and that will determine their fate. But THEY are responsible for making decisions, not the fans.

[GunnerBill]

30 minutes ago, K-9 said:

 

Wrong again. I said Rick Dennison.knew to stay out of his way. That was Manning’s offense. Your specious point was that since Dennison has a SB ring as an OC,  he was somehow a great OC, and Mahomes would have been lights out with him. That’s too funny for words.

 

It wasn't Manning's offense. It was Kubiak's offense. It was very much the Shanahan / Kubiak stretch zone. Establish the outside runs early spread the defense out and then attack them with the inside power and the play action pass. 

 

In fact early that season Kubiak and Dennison fell out with Manning over him not wanting to play under center. Manning had since the knew surgery been exclusively a shotgun QB but you can't run the stretch zone effectively when your QB plays exclusively from the gun as it allows the defense to get upfield immediately and penetrate with less of a fear of misdirection. They had a horror show against Baltimore where Manning tried to run his old offense and then Kubiak stepped in shut it down and said "we are going to run my scheme" and they sort of semi compromised with Peyton coming up and playing in the pistol with a single back behind him making the defense honour both sides of the formation a little more and they sort of got Hillman and Anderson going a bit through the middle weeks of the season.

 

If you remember when Manning missed time hurt they didn't go straight back to him. For the first time in his NFL career he was healthy enough to suit up and yet did not start. That was because Osweiler ran "their scheme" more traditionally. 

 

I am not saying Manning played no part in the offense. He did. His ability to check in and out of plays at the line came up big a couple of times on key runs in the playoffs but he was checking into zone running plays. Not plays straight from the Peyton Manning 4 wide, spread offense. That was Kubiak and Dennison's system. Peyton was still a factor but he wasn't THE factor anymore. 

[Shaw66]

12 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I would say it is fair to say he didn't raise it above the sum of its parts but he got what was there talent wise in my opinion. He was net neutral. 

That's a fair assessment, except that neutral is failing.   ANY  decent coach will get the sum of the parts.   That's just giving the guys an offense to play and seeing that they execute as well as they can.   If you're not adding anything, you deserve to be fired at this level.   He had Tyrod Taylor, LeSean McCoy, Dion Dawkins, Eric Wood and Richie Incognito.   Bills were something like 29th in yards and 27th in touchdowns.   Dennison didn't add anything, and he got what he deserved.  

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, Shaw66 said:

That's a fair assessment, except that neutral is failing.   ANY  decent coach will get the sum of the parts.   That's just giving the guys an offense to play and seeing that they execute as well as they can.   If you're not adding anything, you deserve to be fired at this level.   He had Tyrod Taylor, LeSean McCoy, Dion Dawkins, Eric Wood and Richie Incognito.   Bills were something like 29th in yards and 27th in touchdowns.   Dennison didn't add anything, and he got what he deserved.  

 

Neutral is failing compared to good coaching, yes. But he wasn't the reason the offense sucked. The offense sucked because there was not enough talent. I wasn't clamouring for Dennison to stay, thought I wasn't calling for his head either, but the abuse he got on this board was frankly ludicrous. He was blamed for everything short of global warming, the 2008 financial crash and Brexit. Despite having the league's best non throwing Quarterback to work /suffer with. 

[K-9]

3 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

It wasn't Manning's offense. It was Kubiak's offense. It was very much the Shanahan / Kubiak stretch zone. Establish the outside runs early spread the defense out and then attack them with the inside power and the play action pass. 

 

In fact early that season Kubiak and Dennison fell out with Manning over him not wanting to play under center. Manning had since the knew surgery been exclusively a shotgun QB but you can't run the stretch zone effectively when your QB plays exclusively from the gun as it allows the defense to get upfield immediately and penetrate with less of a fear of misdirection. They had a horror show against Baltimore where Manning tried to run his old offense and then Kubiak stepped in shut it down and said "we are going to run my scheme" and they sort of semi compromised with Peyton coming up and playing in the pistol with a single back behind him making the defense honour both sides of the formation a little more and they sort of got Hillman and Anderson going a bit through the middle weeks of the season.

 

If you remember when Manning missed time hurt they didn't go straight back to him. For the first time in his NFL career he was healthy enough to suit up and yet did not start. That was because Osweiler ran "their scheme" more traditionally. 

 

I am not saying Manning played no part in the offense. He did. His ability to check in and out of plays at the line came up big a couple of times on key runs in the playoffs but he was checking into zone running plays. Not plays straight from the Peyton Manning 4 wide, spread offense. That was Kubiak and Dennison's system. Peyton was still a factor but he wasn't THE factor anymore. 

While I appreciate the the explanation, it's not necessary as again, the point was that Dennison's title of "OC" was in name only. Kubiak called the plays and Manning agreed or not. All season.

 

Now I know this wasn't your assertion, but I need to repeat how we went down this avenue of discussion about Manning and the Broncos. It was the idea put forth that Dennison was some sort of offensive innovator that would have gotten the same out of Mahomes as Reid did in KC. That is ludicrous.  

[BADOLBILZ]

35 minutes ago, K-9 said:

Wrong again. I said Rick Dennison.knew to stay out of his way. That was Manning’s offense. 

 

 

So he just got out of the way for the 6 games Brock Osweiler started?

 

Including the win over New England in Denver that gave them the tie-breaker advantage for homefield?

 

Even Manning didn't just play Manning's Indy offense that year............it was a big part of the storyline of that team........winning the opener with Manning playing a WCO then him running his old offense in the 4th quarter the next week to upset KC at Arrowhead............

 

Dunce-worthy takes from K-9...........nothing new.

 

You are such a poser of NFL knowledge on this board...............have some respect for "the process" of discussion on this board..........less posting and more thought and fact checking would be a start.

 

 

 

[K-9]

1 minute ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

So he just got out of the way for the 6 games Brock Osweiler started?

 

Including the win over New England in Denver that gave them the tie-breaker advantage for homefield?

 

Even Manning didn't just play Manning's Indy offense that year............it was a big part of the storyline of that team........winning the opener with Manning playing a WCO then him running his old offense in the 4th quarter the next week to upset KC at Arrowhead............

 

Dunce-worthy takes from K-9...........nothing new.

 

You are such a poser of NFL knowledge on this board...............have some respect for "the process" of discussion on this board..........less posting and more thought and fact checking would be a start.

 

 

 

Kubiak called the plays and Manning either ran them or checked out of them. 

 

All season. 

 

Rick Dennison: offensive coordinator genius! Right. 

 

Edit: Uh oh. Your predictable trail of minor insults is starting. It's only a matter of time before you lose it entirely. It's your cycle. But I have to say, "have some respect for 'the process' of discussion on this board" is perhaps the most hypocritical statement ever. I'll leave you alone now, though. It's just too easy. 

Edited June 23, 2019 by K-9