Ed Oliver : did the scheme hold him back? (PFF article)

[GimmeSomeProcess]

50 minutes ago, mrags said:

I get it. I’d also point out that Donald is an exception. Not the rule. Most good DTs in the league are much closer to the 300lb mark or over. 

 

Donald just happens to be a freak 

This is true but most teams also slide a defensive end inside at the 3 tech to rush the passer. You don’t need to do that with Oliver, he’s a rare talent because of his size he’s still incredibly strong. That what makes him an elite prospect 

[mrags]

12 minutes ago, GimmeSomeProcess said:

This is true but most teams also slide a defensive end inside at the 3 tech to rush the passer. You don’t need to do that with Oliver, he’s a rare talent because of his size he’s still incredibly strong. That what makes him an elite prospect 

My issue is that you’ve seen him against Shlubs that will not be on nfl rosters. Maybe he doesn’t lose a step against NFLers, maybe he does. Again, I think he looks really good. A little small for the position, but very good regardless. It’s all a crapshoot anyway, so go with it I guess. But he’s not my number one. 

[mannc]

4 hours ago, hjnick said:

Maybe the 4-3 would turn him into the rushing superstar he could be.

 

What sucks about Houston's 2018 schedule, Texas Tech was the best team they played... When I watched some of the tape from that game (not a professional here...), he had a decent push in the first quarter and into the second.  After that, he looked gassed out and was not as productive for the rest of the game.

 

I know a lot of people really, really want Oliver (and he looks like a freak), but I really worry about him because I'd like more gametape against P5 lines and how he would have produced against them (more real tape against better competition).

 

Let's face it, Texas Tech's offensive line is not like Alabama's or Wisconsin's Oline and IMO Tech's Oline did a good job neutralizing him.

 

So how would he do against NFL lines?   

I watched the TT game, too.  Oliver was invisible in the second half.  I really feel like he’s a bust waiting to happen, but he seems to be our consensus pick and lots of people love him, so I guess I’ll just keep an open mind and see what happens.

[aristocrat]

Beane knows defense so if he picks him the guy will be a stud

[Mat68]

25 minutes ago, mrags said:

My issue is that you’ve seen him against Shlubs that will not be on nfl rosters. Maybe he doesn’t lose a step against NFLers, maybe he does. Again, I think he looks really good. A little small for the position, but very good regardless. It’s all a crapshoot anyway, so go with it I guess. But he’s not my number one. 

This is the exact reason why they have the combine and pro days.  His athleticism is rare and freakish.  He was not a small time recruit that came out of nowhere either.  Big time colleges were after him.  He wanted to play as a freshman and be close to home so he pick Houston.  The coach at Houston used Oliver to garner the most attention to essentially have it be 8 or 7 on 10.  In terms of fading down the stretch of games?  That's due to constant double teams.  In the NFL he wont doubled a third as much.  Look at it the other way.  Clemson, Alabama and Mississippi st lines were loaded.  Even the top guys Wilkins, Williams, Simmons.  How often were they doubled let alone tripled??

Edited April 9, 2019 by Mat68

[mrags]

10 minutes ago, Mat68 said:

This is the exact reason why they have the combine and pro days.  His athleticism is rare and freakish.  He was not a small time recruit that came out of nowhere either.  Big time colleges were after him.  He wanted to play as a freshman and be close to home so he pick Houston.  The coach at Houston used Oliver to garner the most attention to essentially have it be 8 or 7 on 10.  In terms of fading down the stretch of games?  That's due to constant double teams.  In the NFL he wont doubled a third as much.  Look at it the other way.  Clemson, Alabama and Mississippi st lines were loaded.  Even the top guys Wilkins, Williams, Simmons.  How often were they doubled let alone tripled??

Your right. The combine is meant for just that. But that doesn’t always mean they are going to be monsters in the pros. I’m not going to start going back and looking at workout warriors that never amounted to anything in the league. But I’ll just say there’s more of them, than ones that made it big. 

 

My guy is Wilkins. Go watch the tape, he’s constantly double teamed. I’m not saying he will pan out either. Of course you are correct, guys at big schools had better team mates to play with which made it easier to succeed. However, they also went up against guys that are going to be in the nfl, every single game most likely. 

[NewEra]

37 minutes ago, mrags said:

My issue is that you’ve seen him against Shlubs that will not be on nfl rosters. Maybe he doesn’t lose a step against NFLers, maybe he does. Again, I think he looks really good. A little small for the position, but very good regardless. It’s all a crapshoot anyway, so go with it I guess. But he’s not my number one. 

We saw him play the 0 the majority of the time.  That will never happen in the NFL.   Like the article says, he was misused, big time.  It’s part of the reason his production was meh.

 

That being said, while I think he’s going to be a stud, anything can happen, especially when the college production wasn’t great.

[mrags]

1 minute ago, NewEra said:

We saw him play the 0 the majority of the time.  That will never happen in the NFL.   Like the article says, he was misused, big time.  It’s part of the reason his production was meh.

 

That being said, while I think he’s going to be a stud, anything can happen, especially when the college production wasn’t great.

I don’t deny any of that all. This guy seems to be a lock for a really good player. I think otherwise. And like I said, I’m sure I’m the minority’s. And I’ll happily eat crow if I’m wrong. But my gut instinct tells me this guy won’t be nearly as good as his draft position shows. 

 

If im takin a guy in the top 10, I don’t want a small school guy ever. I want a guy that did it at big schools in college and dominated. A guy that always found a way to produce. One of the reasons I didn’t want Mack either as early as he went. To scary for my taste. Glad I was wrong about Mack. Time will tell about Oliver. 

[NewEra]

6 minutes ago, mrags said:

I don’t deny any of that all. This guy seems to be a lock for a really good player. I think otherwise. And like I said, I’m sure I’m the minority’s. And I’ll happily eat crow if I’m wrong. But my gut instinct tells me this guy won’t be nearly as good as his draft position shows. 

 

If im takin a guy in the top 10, I don’t want a small school guy ever. I want a guy that did it at big schools in college and dominated. A guy that always found a way to produce. One of the reasons I didn’t want Mack either as early as he went. To scary for my taste. Glad I was wrong about Mack. Time will tell about Oliver. 

I hear ya.  I feel the same about Rashan Gary. Sometimes we just don’t like certain players for w/e reason

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

24 minutes ago, NewEra said:

We saw him play the 0 the majority of the time.  That will never happen in the NFL.   Like the article says, he was misused, big time.  It’s part of the reason his production was meh.

 

That being said, while I think he’s going to be a stud, anything can happen, especially when the college production wasn’t great.

 

Why marginalize an elite pass rush talent?  In college??? 

 

maybe like Shaq he’s just a better run stuffer than pass rusher so he got stuck at nose. 

 

The PFF didn’t seem to wash justifying his grades with snap counts at positions.

 

From this review he Looks like a late first to second rounder. Not 9

Edited April 9, 2019 by Over 29 years of fanhood

[wppete]

It’s incredible that they were playing him at Nose Tackle. But he is so dominate he could play all position on the DLine in college. But in the NFL he is a perfect 3 technique. Aaronn Donald type player. 

[TigerJ]

5 hours ago, hjnick said:

Maybe the 4-3 would turn him into the rushing superstar he could be.

 

What sucks about Houston's 2018 schedule, Texas Tech was the best team they played... When I watched some of the tape from that game (not a professional here...), he had a decent push in the first quarter and into the second.  After that, he looked gassed out and was not as productive for the rest of the game.

 

I know a lot of people really, really want Oliver (and he looks like a freak), but I really worry about him because I'd like more gametape against P5 lines and how he would have produced against them (more real tape against better competition).

 

Let's face it, Texas Tech's offensive line is not like Alabama's or Wisconsin's Oline and IMO Tech's Oline did a good job neutralizing him.

 

So how would he do against NFL lines?   

Endurance shouldn't be a huge issue for Oliver if he were a Bills and McDermott follows his normal practice of heavy rotation.  Jordan Phillips would probably get 40% or more of the defensive snaps.  Besides, this year, the offense is going to be on the field most of the time. LOL

Edited April 9, 2019 by TigerJ

[LSHMEAB]

Coach asks a penetrating defensive lineman to eat space and then rips his jacket off. I'll take Ed's side in this rift.

[Thurman#1]

3 hours ago, SouthNYfan said:

 

He's 6'2" and 287 at the combine

Aaron Donald : 6'1" and 275

 

I'm not saying he's Donald, but he seems to do just fine at that size.

I'm just saying his size isn't really an issue.

 

The rest of the questions I agree with.

I'm not sold on him but I wouldn't be upset if we got him.

If we are picking defense and not oline/wr/te (another discussion) then I'm okay with Oliver if he's there at #9

 

 

 

Good post.

 

You can do well as a smaller DT ... if you're a penetrator. If you're not, guys will latch onto you and you will be at a disadvantage. Oliver is really strong for his size, but the key is that he is a terrific penetrator. When guys contact him, he's often already put them in a bad position with his very quick start.

 

Look at Jay/Jeremiah Ratliff, for example. Guy played nose tackle at between 290 and 303, most of the time on the low end, and was extremely effective. Four straight Pro Bowls, for instance.

Edited April 9, 2019 by Thurman#1

[Mat68]

1 hour ago, mrags said:

Your right. The combine is meant for just that. But that doesn’t always mean they are going to be monsters in the pros. I’m not going to start going back and looking at workout warriors that never amounted to anything in the league. But I’ll just say there’s more of them, than ones that made it big. 

 

My guy is Wilkins. Go watch the tape, he’s constantly double teamed. I’m not saying he will pan out either. Of course you are correct, guys at big schools had better team mates to play with which made it easier to succeed. However, they also went up against guys that are going to be in the nfl, every single game most likely. 

The ability to play with Ferrell and Lawerance vs other collegiate lines is hard to quantify.  Put Wilkins at the 3 tech, Ferrell at De and Lawerence over the center good luck.  Not the same as facing Houston with Oliver over center with some college b level talent around him.  

[Stank_Nasty]

1 hour ago, mrags said:

I don’t deny any of that all. This guy seems to be a lock for a really good player. I think otherwise. And like I said, I’m sure I’m the minority’s. And I’ll happily eat crow if I’m wrong. But my gut instinct tells me this guy won’t be nearly as good as his draft position shows. 

 

If im takin a guy in the top 10, I don’t want a small school guy ever. I want a guy that did it at big schools in college and dominated. A guy that always found a way to produce. One of the reasons I didn’t want Mack either as early as he went. To scary for my taste. Glad I was wrong about Mack. Time will tell about Oliver. 

I mean.... let’s be honest... with a statement like “in the top 10, I don’t want a small school ever”... that gives you room to have been wrong plenty of times over the years. Not just on Mack. 

[YattaOkasan]

2 hours ago, mrags said:

I don’t deny any of that all. This guy seems to be a lock for a really good player. I think otherwise. And like I said, I’m sure I’m the minority’s. And I’ll happily eat crow if I’m wrong. But my gut instinct tells me this guy won’t be nearly as good as his draft position shows. 

 

If im takin a guy in the top 10, I don’t want a small school guy ever. I want a guy that did it at big schools in college and dominated. A guy that always found a way to produce. One of the reasons I didn’t want Mack either as early as he went. To scary for my taste. Glad I was wrong about Mack. Time will tell about Oliver. 

Haha. Not only Mack but you wouldn’t take wentz?  Allen too scary too?  Do you think you should reconsider if those players are freaks?  Also American is meh but it’s not terrible. Their brand is P6. They might be better than PAC12 which has struggled lately. 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

2 minutes ago, Stank_Nasty said:

I mean.... let’s be honest... with a statement like “in the top 10, I don’t want a small school ever”... that gives you room to have been wrong plenty of times over the years. Not just on Mack. 

 

Hope he’s wrong about that kid from WY state drafted top 10

[mrags]

6 minutes ago, Stank_Nasty said:

I mean.... let’s be honest... with a statement like “in the top 10, I don’t want a small school ever”... that gives you room to have been wrong plenty of times over the years. Not just on Mack. 

I was simply stating my general opinion. With a specific guy in mind I was wrong about. 

5 minutes ago, YattaOkasan said:

Haha. Not only Mack but you wouldn’t take wentz?  Allen too scary too?  Do you think you should reconsider if those players are freaks?  Also American is meh but it’s not terrible. Their brand is P6. They might be better than PAC12 which has struggled lately. 

I did not like Wentz and honestly, there’s no guarantee he’ll be good. He’s been alright so far, when he’s not hurt. 

 

I havent lied lied about my knowledge of college football. I know very little. Don’t follow.  I base my opinions off my instincts 

7 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

 

Hope he’s wrong about that kid from WY state drafted top 10

I did want Allen. And I hope my general opinion is wrong about him. 

 

But it let’s be honest, Allen’s arm strength could be legendary in the league. Not just someone that could be good. His ceiling could be incredibly high. 

 

I just dont see that with oliver based on the film that I’ve seen 

[billsfan89]

1 hour ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Good post.

 

You can do well as a smaller DT ... if you're a penetrator. If you're not, guys will latch onto you and you will be at a disadvantage. Oliver is really strong for his size, but the key is that he is a terrific penetrator. When guys contact him, he's often already put them in a bad position with his very quick start.

 

Look at Jay/Jeremiah Ratliff, for example. Guy played nose tackle at between 290 and 303, most of the time on the low end, and was extremely effective. Four straight Pro Bowls, for instance.

 

Tommy Harris was an elite one gap DT for the Bears in the mid 2000's (he was a key piece from 2005-2007 when he was a pro-bowler and although his play declined for the years after he complied 31.5 sacks in 8 seasons. Harris and others in the mid-2000's played at a size under 300 pounds and were super effective. Now a lot of the smaller DT's did end up getting hurt but that was of course in an era where while the NFL was still a passing league teams did run more and have interior O-line players best suited to maul in the run game over being pass protectors.