How long to close the competitive gap?

[Bangarang]

1 hour ago, Tenhigh said:

Apples and oranges.  Some folks are trying to make these guys responsible for the misdeeds of their predecessors, and count their 17 years of suck in with what McD and Bean are doing. 

 

Do you have any examples of this because this is nonsense

[WideNine]

2 hours ago, PlayoffsPlease said:

Most Every NFL team is in the playoffs with some frequency.  35% of the teams make the playoffs every year. It is not that big of an accomplishment.  Sometimes former super bowl winners like the Raven's Harbaugh are considered on the hot seat for not delivering recent results.  Many Bengals fans would say that "continuity" just let to a decade of futility under Marvin Lewis.  Bills fans are truly scarred. The think a playoff winning coach is such a rare commodity that you must keep that person for ever.   There are three levels of coaching 1) gets more out of the team than the talent would suggest 2) gets the expected results out of the talent 3) gets below expected results based on talent. 

You can be in the first category without having a winning record.   I don't know where to place McDermott.  The talent on offense is awful.  He can't catch the balls for the players.  But Mcdermott thinks the position coaching is bad too (he fired several).   The handling of QBs, the high number of penalties,  weak offensive play calling, piss poor clock management and hiring the wrong positional coaches don't really indicate a strong head coach though. 

 

Most don't share their division with NE.

 

How often do the Jets and Miami make the playoffs?

 

The talent divide isn't that great, but teams in our division are handed 2 L's every season...except for the odd one-off game they manage to take from Belichick once or twice a decade. They also keep cycling through front offices and players looking for the magic formula to get over the NE hump...which usually just means they are in constant disarray and rarely in position to actually do just that.

 

 

 

 

[reddogblitz]

1 minute ago, WideNine said:

 

Most don't share their division with NE.

 

 

The whole time NE has been on a tear we've gone 9-7  3 times.  8-8 twice and losing records the rest of the years.  And in at least 3 of those years we split with them. So I don't think this has a whole lot to do with our lack of playoff experience.  Winning the division perhaps, but making the playoffs, I think not.

[El Guapo]

Wow. My, how this fan base has turned on this regime and rookie QB. 

 

Playoffs or fire them all!

 

Win the division or fire them all!

 

beat the Pats* or fire them all. 

 

Did is anyone else see what Tom Brady and BB did this weekend?  It was surgical. There is a reason he is the GOAT. It sucks that he is in the AFCE, but as long as that duo is together, you can forget about winning this division. You can puff out your chest and say a good coach will knock them off, but who are you really kidding?  Until time has it’s way, or Brady retires, it’s their division. Besting those two cannot be your measuring stick. No other team has done it consistently [except the Giants -twice].  

[LSHMEAB]

4 minutes ago, El Guapo said:

Wow. My, how this fan base has turned on this regime and rookie QB. 

 

Playoffs or fire them all!

 

Win the division or fire them all!

 

beat the Pats* or fire them all. 

 

Did is anyone else see what Tom Brady and BB did this weekend?  It was surgical. There is a reason he is the GOAT. It sucks that he is in the AFCE, but as long as that duo is together, you can forget about winning this division. You can puff out your chest and say a good coach will knock them off, but who are you really kidding?  Until time has it’s way, or Brady retires, it’s their division. Besting those two cannot be your measuring stick. No other team has done it consistently [except the Giants -twice].  

They're underdogs this weekend against a first year starting QB.

 

 

3 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

That's the opposite of playing it safe.

 

They essentially took the safe route in giving themselves at least 3 years by blowing it all up. Had the reloaded and not traded away/let some talented players walk there would've been pressure on them to win right away. 

Thank you! It's like saying the contractor who comes in and says he needs to tear everything down but requires several months in order to get the job done is ballsy. Nahh. The contractor who comes in and says he can do x,y, and z and have the project completed in a timely manner is ballsy. Time will tell if they know what they're doing, but they took the safe route IMO.

Edited January 14, 2019 by LSHMEAB

[Boatdrinks]

2 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said:

They're underdogs this weekend against a first year starting QB.

 

 

That’s an historically great first year starting QB though. How many teams get one of those ? 

[reddogblitz]

Just now, LSHMEAB said:

They're underdogs this weekend against a first year starting QB. 

 

Tony Sparano was able to do it once with an innovative offensive idea that totally caught them off guard and they won the division that year.  So it's not like it can't be done.

 

I hate this whole whiny thing that we can't win until NE implodes.

[LSHMEAB]

Just now, Boatdrinks said:

That’s an historically great first year starting QB though. How many teams get one of those ? 

If I'm to believe Josh Allen is the real deal and Beane knows how to build an offense, why can't we get it done?

[Boatdrinks]

1 minute ago, LSHMEAB said:

If I'm to believe Josh Allen is the real deal and Beane knows how to build an offense, why can't we get it done?

There is no way to say they can’t get it done. They can, but imo they painted themselves in a corner with their teardown strategy. The reason is they will need to be exceptional at drafting players and get fortunate with some judicious FA signings. They didn’t keep much to build around, and to me that means they may run out of time before their blueprint leads to success. 

[Chris66]

3 minutes ago, reddogblitz said:

 

Tony Sparano was able to do it once with an innovative offensive idea that totally caught them off guard and they won the division that year.  So it's not like it can't be done.

 

I hate this whole whiny thing that we can't win until NE implodes.

Brady did go on ir the first quarter of the first game. Phins were also playing a 4th place schedule. Both teams finished at 11-5 that year. Its also the same year the colts and titans both finished at 13-3 or something close to that

[BADOLBILZ]

2 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

That's the opposite of playing it safe.

 

They essentially took the safe route in giving themselves at least 3 years by blowing it all up. Had the reloaded and not traded away/let some talented players walk there would've been pressure on them to win right away. 

 

 

Exactly...........when The Pegs sent Whaley out to that PC to send the message that "7-9 wasn't good enough" with that roster he was basically saying the next coach needs to do A LOT better with that roster.

 

So by tearing it down.........it bought time for McD to play the "fake it til' you make it" game.

 

And he's been doing it ever since.

 

But at some point you gotta' be able to gather up all those experiences.........bad coaching hires at OC and OL and ST, dumb personnel decisions like going big and slow at WR, the Peterman fiasco(s), bad sideline work like time management and almost unbillievably bad use of challenges............to name a few............and turn them into wisdom.

 

Next year is when we find out what McD learned and how he can apply that knowledge gained at The Pegs(and Bills fans) expense. 

[Chris66]

11 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said:

If I'm to believe Josh Allen is the real deal and Beane knows how to build an offense, why can't we get it done?

Cause Josh Allen isnt the real deal and Beane hasnt shown he can get it done.

 

I give McD and Beane credit. They fleeced an owner who doesnt have a clue into getting a full 5 years to have a .500 record

Edited January 14, 2019 by Chris66

[El Guapo]

5 minutes ago, reddogblitz said:

 

Tony Sparano was able to do it once with an innovative offensive idea that totally caught them off guard and they won the division that year.  So it's not like it can't be done.

 

I hate this whole whiny thing that we can't win until NE implodes.

You’re right. It’s whiny. I mean if only the Bills had been better. 

 

 NE wouldn’t have won 15 of 17 AFCE titles, been to 8 Super Bowls (winning 5) and not had a losing record in 17 years. 

 

Its not not like the division has been up for grabs every year. That team is arguably the greatest dynasty ever in professional football. 

 

Dont tell me not to take that into account, or that taking that into account is being whiny. It’s not an inferiority complex - it is recognizing greatness when you see it. 

 

 

[reddogblitz]

Just now, El Guapo said:

Dont tell me not to take that into account, or that taking that into account is being whiny. It’s not an inferiority complex - it is recognizing greatness when you see it. 

 

I can see your point on winning the division sortof.  But not on us not making it as a wild card more than once.  All those years we went 7-9 or 6-10 we only played them twice.  We lost the other 7 or 8 to other teams.  How does NE affect that?

[El Guapo]

And I hate Brady and BB with all my being, but they are the best coach/QB duo ever, IMO. 

[LSHMEAB]

4 minutes ago, Chris66 said:

Cause Josh Allen isnt the real deal and Beane hasnt shown he can get it done.

 

I give McD and Beane credit. They fleeced an owner who doesnt have a clue into getting a full 5 years to have a .500 record

But if you're wrong and Allen is the real deal and Beane knows how to build a competent offense, why can't it be us? The same people who believe in the regime are telling me it can't be done. I have higher expectations I suppose.

[El Guapo]

Just now, reddogblitz said:

 

I can see your point on winning the division sortof.  But not on us not making it as a wild card more than once.  All those years we went 7-9 or 6-10 we only played them twice.  We lost the other 7 or 8 to other teams.  How does NE affect that?

I’m not making excuses for past regimes. I’m only saying that to measure McBeane by the Patriots yard stick is not fair next year. 

[reddogblitz]

Just now, El Guapo said:

I’m not making excuses for past regimes. I’m only saying that to measure McBeane by the Patriots yard stick is not fair next year. 

 

OK.  How about WC?  Is that a fair measure?

[Chris66]

1 minute ago, LSHMEAB said:

But if you're wrong and Allen is the real deal and Beane knows how to build a competent offense, why can't it be us? The same people who believe in the regime are telling me it can't be done. I have higher expectations I suppose.

I dont think this regime can. Mcd knows defense he has shown that. He has also shown that he doesnt know offense very much. My guess is they will put it together. Pegs will get a new coach to make it work. One of mcd or beane is not going to get the chance to see this through

[El Guapo]

Just now, reddogblitz said:

 

OK.  How about WC?  Is that a fair measure?

Enough wins for a WC. Tie breakers can be a B word to hold a coach accountable for. If we win 9 next year and we’re competitive in the other games, showing good progress, I can live with it. 

 

I want continuity and progress. 

 

Now, if BB and Brady retire after winning their 6th SB this year, then game on!

[Chris66]

2 minutes ago, reddogblitz said:

 

OK.  How about WC?  Is that a fair measure?

That might be harder than division. You figure chiefs chargers. Steelers Ravens and browns, texans colt.all vying for a wc spot

[LSHMEAB]

Just now, El Guapo said:

Enough wins for a WC. Tie breakers can be a B word to hold a coach accountable for. If we win 9 next year and we’re competitive in the other games, showing good progress, I can live with it. 

 

I want continuity and progress. 

 

Now, if BB and Brady retire after winning their 6th SB this year, then game on!

What if, as expected by oddsmakers, they lose this weekend to a first year starting quarterback and come back next year?

 

Again, why not us?

[Chris66]

1 minute ago, LSHMEAB said:

What if, as expected by oddsmakers, they lose this weekend to a first year starting quarterback and come back next year?

 

Again, why not us?

Pats had a bad reg season and went 11-5. One brain fart in miami cost them a first round bye.

 

There is no way Bills can fill all the holes to make up at least 5 games. To have achance to win the division. Thats expecting a lot.

[reddogblitz]

2 minutes ago, El Guapo said:

Enough wins for a WC. Tie breakers can be a B word to hold a coach accountable for. If we win 9 next year and we’re competitive in the other games, showing good progress, I can live with it.

 

My bottom line is still in the hunt for playoffs going into week 17.  I'd be good with that next year.  Hopefully we win if that's the case.  but it really needs to be at least that for me not to get out the pitch forks.

[El Guapo]

5 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said:

What if, as expected by oddsmakers, they lose this weekend to a first year starting quarterback and come back next year?

 

Again, why not us?

If they lose, I fully expect them back. However, I do not think Allen can make the jump Mahomes did for year 1 to year 2. Just my opinion. I think Allen will be at his prime in year 3. He could, but even if he does, don’t expect Brady to lose the AFCE. Betting odd would tell you that would be a losing proposition. 

[reddogblitz]

Just now, Chris66 said:

Pats had a bad reg season and went 11-5. One brain fart in miami cost them a first round bye.

 

There is no way Bills can fill all the holes to make up at least 5 games. To have achance to win the division. Thats expecting a lot.

 

I'm a season ticket holder. I give a lot and I expect a lot in return.

[Nextmanup]

36 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said:

They're underdogs this weekend against a first year starting QB.

 

 

Thank you! It's like saying the contractor who comes in and says he needs to tear everything down but requires several months in order to get the job done is ballsy. Nahh. The contractor who comes in and says he can do x,y, and z and have the project completed in a timely manner is ballsy. Time will tell if they know what they're doing, but they took the safe route IMO.

That could have and perhaps should have been a Buffalo Bill!

 

Some things never change.

 

 

[reddogblitz]

Just now, El Guapo said:

If they lose, I fully expect them back. However, I do not think Allen can make the jump Mahomes did for year 1 to year 2. Just my opinion. I think Allen will be at his prime in year 3. He could, but even if he does, don’t expect Brady to lose the AFCE. Betting odd would tell you that would be a losing proposition. 

 

Maybe our great D coach can figure out how to slow them down a little?

 

They only scored 26 on us on Monday Night and Derek Anderson gift wrapped them 7.  Rex held them to 23 once.  Wouldn't be too much onus on Wonder Boy if we could do that ...

[Ga boy]

5 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

You.

 

By incorrectly associating 17 years of missed playoffs with the need for a major change when three previous extensive teardowns did not work.

 

The Bills team that McD inherited from Anthony Lynn was 7th in the NFL in scoring offense thru 15 games with the fewest turnovers ever in the SB era...........when you tear that down and finish nearly dead last in that regard for the next two years........well that looks dumb.

 

And the talent level of the defense he inherited was excellent and the positions of need on D were fairly easy to replace(LB's and safeties).

 

And the long term cap outlook was excellent even then..........you can pay your good young players now because you got a bunch of vets that will be gone in a few seasons and no first round picks to extend from the 2013 or 2015 drafts etc..

 

There was no need for a major personnel or offensive scheme shakeup...........and the thought that there was one needed at the time of the coaching search was as foreign of a concept at the time as thinking that the Bills need to select a QB in round one this year would be now.      

 

I mean a team that couldn't win under a half-interested Rex Ryan was proof that major change was needed?   The narrative made little sense............and then to finally have the QB they've been searching for for decades fall into their lap on draft day at a time when they didn't even have their GM in place!  WTF    It was utter buffoonery.    

 

Now as Belichick has said..........you gotta' be making bad decisions all the time to stay bad in the NFL...........and certainly not everything the Bills have done under McBeane has been bad.........but it's hard to run with the big dogs when you are rationalizing why you need to stay on the porch.

 

The alternative to the sub-mediocrity that most of the McD regime has been are teams like the Chiefs, Rams, Texans and Colts.........all teams that hired the right people and picked the right players and made the jump to contenders pretty quickly and without all of the labor pains.

I wonder how many guys who were in the draft room in 2017 are still around?  Any second tier executives, scouts, etc??  If so, I bet some are walking around thinking "I told you so" about Mahomes.  I would be.  I get that there was a reluctance to roll the dice on a franchise QB with the changes coming.  However, I'm sure that anyone (still present or exited) who was a Mahomes man is feeling vindicated these days ...

 

[Chris66]

15 minutes ago, reddogblitz said:

 

I'm a season ticket holder. I give a lot and I expect a lot in return.

I think 9-7 would be a more reasonable expectation.

[Nextmanup]

40 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Exactly...........when The Pegs sent Whaley out to that PC to send the message that "7-9 wasn't good enough" with that roster he was basically saying the next coach needs to do A LOT better with that roster.

 

So by tearing it down.........it bought time for McD to play the "fake it til' you make it" game.

 

And he's been doing it ever since.

 

But at some point you gotta' be able to gather up all those experiences.........bad coaching hires at OC and OL and ST, dumb personnel decisions like going big and slow at WR, the Peterman fiasco(s), bad sideline work like time management and almost unbillievably bad use of challenges............to name a few............and turn them into wisdom.

 

Next year is when we find out what McD learned and how he can apply that knowledge gained at The Pegs(and Bills fans) expense. 

IMO next year is the make it happen year from Pegula's perspective. 

 

A lot of folks at this forum seem to think McD is comfortably our HC for several more years.  I disagree with that.

 

If next year is solidly disappointing, and we'll all know what that looks like if/when we see it...McD is gonna be gone.

 

Pegula has shown several times already that he isn't afraid to pull the termination trigger with big names if performance does not match expectations, even in situations where popular fan opinion stated that the name getting terminated was comfortably safe within the organization.

 

 

[Cripple Creek]

23 hours ago, Ga boy said:

I'm not that impressed with most of the playoff teams I watched the past 2 weeks.  The games were mostly hard to watch.  Pats, Rams, Chiefs, and Saints are the best this year;  however,  Pats and Saints will be falling off soon once the QBs exit.  We're not that far from being competitive with the other 27 teams.  I see us getting there with 4 key players:  2 OL, 1 WR, and a pass rusher.  Also, the playoffs validate once again that QB is key, and we've got ours now.  I look forward to being regular participants in the January games into the 20s.  Go Bills!!  

If not within the next 20 months we're in trouble so I'll say 20 months.

[BADOLBILZ]

10 minutes ago, Nextmanup said:

IMO next year is the make it happen year from Pegula's perspective. 

 

A lot of folks at this forum seem to think McD is comfortably our HC for several more years.  I disagree with that.

 

If next year is solidly disappointing, and we'll all know what that looks like if/when we see it...McD is gonna be gone.

 

Pegula has shown several times already that he isn't afraid to pull the termination trigger with big names if performance does not match expectations, even in situations where popular fan opinion stated that the name getting terminated was comfortably safe within the organization.

 

 

 

Well said.

 

It's not necessarily about record..........we will "know what it looks like if/when we see it."

 

And yes there is this "I know the Pegula's and they wouldn't do that" thing that goes around on this board and the idea that they have an identity that they won't break character from just doesn't really ring true.

 

Somehow in the matter of a few weeks in 2016-2017 they went from not knowing if they were going to fire Rex............to being surprisingly confronted and backed into a corner by Rex..........to not having a press conference to discuss the firing or Rex.........to trumpeting Whaley as their man and leader of the HC search.........to hiring McDermott with full intent to get rid of Whaley and then not hiring a replacement GM until AFTER the frickin' draft for some inexplicable reason(which some utterly moronic folks then tried to give The Pegs credit for as "trail blazers").

 

We love em' for saving the team.........but let's not pretend that things aren't PRETTY fluid wrt their decision making.............and fwiw.........in today's NFL that isn't necessarily a bad thing.    Places that show extreme loyalty to mediocre coaches tend to stay mediocre.   Fortune favors the bold in the new NFL.

[Mat68]

Add talent young and old to the offense.  If its the right mix, Buffalo could be a contender in 2019.  

[WideNine]

2 hours ago, reddogblitz said:

 

The whole time NE has been on a tear we've gone 9-7  3 times.  8-8 twice and losing records the rest of the years.  And in at least 3 of those years we split with them. So I don't think this has a whole lot to do with our lack of playoff experience.  Winning the division perhaps, but making the playoffs, I think not.

 

Losing to them twice a year (which is the norm) does affect our team's record and ability to get into the playoffs.

 

Granted we have had some pretty suck teams since the late Ralph showed Wade the door, but the Fish and the Jets have only managed to peak once each since the turn of the millennium too. We have been NE's friggin doormat for too long. And even if we back into the playoffs, if we can't get by NE in the playoffs what is the point? 

 

The Bills beat NE they will likely take the division and be in the playoffs and have a huge confidence edge, but we don't so we wont till that is fixed. We get ahead on offense and our defense folds like a cheap seat, we get stellar defensive play and then our offense can't find their a$$ with both hands and turns it over for a defensive score, or we play a good close game and Special Teams finds a way to sn*tch defeat from the jaws of victory, and we always get screwed by the officiating - that's a given.

 

They need to figure it out - and the only saving grace is that NE generally makes every other AFC team look pathetic in the playoffs so comparing the Bills to teams in other divisions that have gotten into AFC playoffs past by beating on weak divisional rivals like the Browns, Cincinnati, or the Raiders is just apples to oranges.

 

I know one thing - constantly blowing up your team is not going to get them past Belichick and Pegula knows this too. Although this off season is key, we should be able to clearly see a team that is making progress and moving in the right direction player-wise and personnel-wise and that does mean more wins and better performance against NE.

 

I am really curious about the Special Teams and positional coach vacancies - also who they promote to national scout to fill that void.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 15, 2019 by WideNine

[WideNine]

42 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

I recall fans on here saying the new NFL is going towards hiring the HC first and then the GM.

 

All I could think is what the ***** are these guys talking about? ?

 

That's what happens when your owner doesn't know what he is doing or what he wants and is just randomly making it up as he goes along.  

So stop ***** blowing up your team.

 

If you do fire your HC/GM combo, make sure you bring in guys WILLING TO WORK WITH THE TALENT ON YOUR TEAM.... and not dump it/not resign it/trade it away in the name of process or culture or whatever other bull#### cliche you want to use.

 

I agree with this, but you can't have a team that has a lot of money tied to players who are not getting it done either, or the next guy just has to blow up the roster to get some compete back on the field. When I say not getting it done, I am not talking scheme but rather physically getting beat on the field.

 

That is why the handling of McCoy has me baffled... I like some of the moves by McBeane to clear cap and jettison big-salary under-performers, or guys that just cant stay healthy, but although I like McCoy I do believe his best days are in the rear view. Would have liked to keep Woods, but all indications were that he wanted out.

 

Would've liked to have kept Glenn, but the Bills also would not have been able to move up and take one of the better QB's I have seen in a long while .... wearing a Bills uniform that is. Hoping there is a lot less of that and more building and maintaining a good core.

 

I also don't believe in the scheme coaches who can't adapt... to be competitive year after year with FA, injuries, and roster turnover a good coach has to be able to find ways to get the most out of the players they have. 

 

That was one of the under-appreciated aspects of Wade Phillips time here as he crafted defenses that fit his players...I remember when injuries decimated our linebacker depth, Wade looked and saw we had more than enough healthy d-linemen and switched his base 3-4 to a 4-3 and still fielded a dominant group. He was praised at each of his other stops for molding the best scheme for the players he has.

 

“I don’t understand the people that say, ‘Hey, this is our scheme, and that guy can’t play in it. The guy can play, he’s a good player, but he can’t play in our scheme,' " Phillips said.

“Well, to me. There’s something wrong with your scheme.”

 

 

Edited January 15, 2019 by WideNine

[Cripple Creek]

3 hours ago, Nextmanup said:

 

If next year is solidly disappointing, and we'll all know what that looks like if/when we see it...McD is gonna be gone.

 

Strongly agree.

47 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

I recall fans on here saying the new NFL is going towards hiring the HC first and then the GM.

 

All I could think is what the ***** are these guys talking about? ?

 

That's what happens when your owner doesn't know what he is doing or what he wants and is just randomly making it up as he goes along.  

 

He isn't a dumb guy and his instincts early on were correct. To paraphrase "I'm not a football guy so I want someone I can lean on within the organization." When/if Polian turned him down that thought apparently left his mind.  To this day he needs someone, not GM or coach, leading the organization as team president or whatever title it takes to get someone in there who can help turn this ship around.

Edited January 15, 2019 by Cripple Creek

[Lfod]

I don't think they have very long to close the competitive gap. This season was two steps back after taking one step forward in my view. I'm in the same boat with people that think next season is the deadline to look like a competent team.

Edited January 15, 2019 by Lfod

[Tcali]

9 hours ago, LSHMEAB said:

Story of my life. I was the ultimate optimist in my early 20's. I'd make these people look like harsh cynics. Not quite sure how fans 35+ years old remain all hopey changy.

Its a bitter pill to swallow. the cold and stark realization that the buffalo Bills will be mediocre until the end of time.

[mannc]

On 1/13/2019 at 5:34 PM, MAJBobby said:

 

But it that being said this staff needs to get back in the playoffs to keep their jobs IMO 

I hope this is correct.  No one in their right mind would sign off on a four-year plan to make the Bills contenders after going .500 under Wrex, and I’m damn sure McDermott never told the Pegulas any such thing.