Nate Burleson Speaks On The Firing Of African American Coaches

[BringBackOrton]

21 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Brian Daboll is a terrible OC who keeps getting big jobs.  All people do here is defend him because he’s had bad qbs.  Who were Wilkes and Joseph’s qbs?  Who got them those QBs?

 

Honestly, they might be bad coaches but to fire them after 1 year?  

Joseph coached two years. 

Edited January 1, 2019 by Hapless Bills Fan
inappropriate language

[whatdrought]

9 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I will get out the tea and cucumber sandwiches to entertain your recent examples of such. 

Hint: it's quite rare.  First of all, it makes the person who did the hiring look like a fool.  And if he's a fool, well, shouldn't he go too?  Second of all, it's widely recognized that in football it takes time to turn things around.

 

Everyone wants what is best for their team.  The question is around how they perceive and evaluate this.

 

https://mobile.twitter.com/AdamSchefter/status/1079771375575990272

 

all but one on this list (excluding Wilkes) is white (unless I’m mistaken.)

 

one and done coaches don’t happen a lot, true, but it’s an equal racial breakdown when it does happen.

[C.Biscuit97]

5 minutes ago, BringBackOrton said:

??? 

 

I can think of two white coaches fired after a year within the last 3 years.

When are we going to address this racial disparity?  We need more Pacific Islanders playing CB.   It's gross.

"People who don't agree with me are close-minded" is the funniest take you've ever had.

 

You're a real shooting star CB.

I’m guessing this isn’t a very diverse group in this thread.  

 

 

[JoPar_v2]

2 minutes ago, klos63 said:

Keim has a dui as GM, maybe you smell alcohol too.

 

Yeah I’m aware I pointed that out earlier. Extreme DUI to be exact. He’s all good though he stays.

[Rico]

1 minute ago, whatdrought said:

 

https://mobile.twitter.com/AdamSchefter/status/1079771375575990272

 

all but one on this list (excluding Wilkes) is white (unless I’m mistaken.)

 

one and done coaches don’t happen a lot, true, but it’s an equal racial breakdown when it does happen.

Art Shell and Hue Jackson too, but it's all good. Marty's the only one who had a legitimate beef, the others were marginal to abysmal.

[whatdrought]

1 minute ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

I’m guessing this isn’t a very diverse group in this thread.  

 

 

 

Assuming people’s color based on their opinions?

 

hm... I wonder if there’s a word for that. 

[boyst]

2 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

I’m guessing this isn’t a very diverse group in this thread.  

 

 

It shouldn't matter the diversity of this thread, bro

 

The first thing that's always told in these arguments that really shows how poorly they are made is when someone says "you're not judged by your skin, so you don't know."

1 minute ago, whatdrought said:

 

Assuming people’s color based on their opinions?

 

hm... I wonder if there’s a word for that. 

He doesn't get it. CB has so much virtue he can't be given time to understand facts and that he's a bloviating racist.

[whatdrought]

Just now, Rico said:

Art Shell and Hue Jackson too, but it's all good. Marty's the only one who had a legitimate beef, the others were marginal to abysmal.

 

Jaxkson was the one I meant, and I didn’t catch Shell cause I didn’t know who that was.

 

is it racism to be a black man and hate a black man so badly that you would subject a black man (yourself) to working for Al Davis or his weird clone/son?

[blzrul]

The NFL is about 70% black. If playing football makes one a good coach, then one could reasonably expect over time that the majority of NFL coaches would rise from those ranks.  Thus there would be a great many more black coaches than there are today.

 

Now - should an incompetent coach be retained to maintain racial parity? Hell no. But the definition of incompetence should apply EQUALLY to white and black.  This doesn't mean to set a standard within the NFL. Every team owner/GM is in a unique situation.  And some guys, black or white, shouldn't be HC. But I'm pretty sure the bar is much higher for people of color - because that's the way it is elsewhere, not just the NFL. 

 

I don't have the answer.  But dismissing this out of hand smacks of white privilege.  Walk a mile in someone else's shoes before you presume to tell people how they should feel.  

[JMF2006]

Gruden signed a 10 yr 100m deal he isn't going nowhere for a while  

[BringBackOrton]

Just now, blzrul said:

The NFL is about 70% black. If playing football makes one a good coach, then one could reasonably expect over time that the majority of NFL coaches would rise from those ranks.  Thus there would be a great many more black coaches than there are today.

 

Now - should an incompetent coach be retained to maintain racial parity? Hell no. But the definition of incompetence should apply EQUALLY to white and black.  This doesn't mean to set a standard within the NFL. Every team owner/GM is in a unique situation.  And some guys, black or white, shouldn't be HC. But I'm pretty sure the bar is much higher for people of color - because that's the way it is elsewhere, not just the NFL. 

 

I don't have the answer.  But dismissing this out of hand smacks of white privilege.  Walk a mile in someone else's shoes before you presume to tell people how they should feel.  

Your second sentence is an ABSURD assumption. Most good coaches started early COACHING. 

 

Walk a mile in reality before telling people what shoes to wear.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

12 minutes ago, whatdrought said:

You definitely make some good points. But I don’t think that rules change implicit bias. If an owner refuses to hire black coaches, and his team sucks, then he’ll learn or lose. (And face a lot of backlash.)

 

the problem with affirmative action is that a negative doesn’t fix a negative. Instead of correcting racism by saying “we are going to judge everything by merit.” We said “we’re going  to fix racism by being racist in the other direction.” It’s still racism, even if it’s well intentioned. If a coach isn’t worthy of an interview, then he shouldn’t be interviewed. Regardless of his race. 

If an academic isn’t worthy of admission into Harvard (by pre-set standards) then he shouldn’t be admitted. Regardless of his race. The only fairness is to remove race entirely from the equation and let the free exchange of ideas, and the free market determine who should or should not be employed. 

 

The problem with this original post is that skin color was mentioned at all. Bad coaches were fired. Some were kept. Race doesn’t factor in. 

 

As I said above (and trying to keep it focused on football, or at least having a tie in to football), I view the Rooney Rule as too little too late, just like other forms of affirmative action.

It goes way back - are black players who have an interest in coaching getting encouragement to develop whatever extra skills they need?  Are they being evaluated evenly?  Offered equal mentoring?  When they are assistants, are they seen as equally capable, and helped to build whatever ancillary skills they need in an equitable way?  Because if they aren't, for whatever reason, then you have a system where "merit" is defined by the people already in the system, and who not unnaturally tend to define it in a way that pulls out folks just like themselves and it's a self-perpetuating situation.

 

The problem with the "free market" notion, is that when you have a monopoly controlled by 32 people hiring HC and then a second monopoly controlled by 32 HC hires who bring in their buddies as OC, DC, and assistants, there just isn't a lot of free market force at play.  Hopefully we can agree on that?

I noticed something interesting in @Nervous Guy 's post above listing coaches fired after 1 year.  Most of the guys fired after 1 year, were failed retreads like Chip Kelly, Mike Mularky, and Jim Mora who IMO shouldn't have been given a second (or nth) shot in the first place.  How do you feel that fits with the whole "free market" notion of hiring? 

[boyst]

2 minutes ago, blzrul said:

The NFL is about 70% black. If playing football makes one a good coach, then one could reasonably expect over time that the majority of NFL coaches would rise from those ranks.  Thus there would be a great many more black coaches than there are today.

 

Now - should an incompetent coach be retained to maintain racial parity? Hell no. But the definition of incompetence should apply EQUALLY to white and black.  This doesn't mean to set a standard within the NFL. Every team owner/GM is in a unique situation.  And some guys, black or white, shouldn't be HC. But I'm pretty sure the bar is much higher for people of color - because that's the way it is elsewhere, not just the NFL. 

 

I don't have the answer.  But dismissing this out of hand smacks of white privilege.  Walk a mile in someone else's shoes before you presume to tell people how they should feel.  

To even attempt to make an argument of your post I suggest:

A breakdown of coaches who played in the NFL by race.  I think Harbaugh, Rivera, Vrabel, mularky, Reich, Garrett, Lynn.

 

That's 8 coaches of teams that played as best I can guess of memory, 1 is black.  8/32 is 1/6 of the league. Of those 1/8 is a minority.  1/8. That's 12.5% of former players are coaching. But, 99% of statistics can be shaped to show anything. 

 

To begin projecting the bar is higher for certain groups is reckless and irresponsible is the only real point to be made.

Edited January 1, 2019 by Boyst62

[Trogdor]

11 minutes ago, PlayoffsPlease said:

What you are really saying is that some sort of racism is resulting in whites, hispanics and asians being under represented as players.  Without racism, it is impossible that that one race would be so over represented versus the general population.  The league should take immediate action to change this imbalance.  At the same time it needs to address the absurd sexism problem. Until 50% of coaches and players are women, it is clear that there is a huge huge problem. 


or maybe in a league where winning is everything teams just get the people they think are the most talented players and coaches. 

Riiiiigggght. So the abundance of talent in Black and Polynesian players somehow equates to the underrepresentation of coaches. Man I just can't believe Art Shell was the first viable black coaching candidate. 

[JoPar_v2]

2 minutes ago, BringBackOrton said:

Your second sentence is an ABSURD assumption. Most good coaches started early COACHING. 

 

Walk a mile in reality before telling people what shoes to wear.

 

If that’s the case why are there so many former pro players (of every color) coaching in the league? I mean, if MOST good ones started out exclusively coaching? I see several white players, like Vrabel and Reich for instance, getting hired and seeing success. There’s some reality for you. 

[blzrul]

Just now, BringBackOrton said:

Your second sentence is an ABSURD assumption. Most good coaches started early COACHING. 

 

Walk a mile in reality before telling people what shoes to wear.

Get thee to a dictionary and look up the conditional word "IF" which is the word I used.  IF / THEN.  You don't program, do you? 

 

I think there are a number of coaches that played football.  Maybe not all NFL. You can look that up since it seems important to you that all those black guys playing can't be coaches. 

 

If you want to wear ballet shoes that's fine with me.  If you want to keep a closed mind, it only hurts you. Not me. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

25 minutes ago, SinceThe70s said:

Totally agree. 

The debate over whether there's a hiring issue has more legs. Bringing up firings cheapens that debate IMO. 

 

Fair enough. 

 

The one firing that IMO raises the eyebrows is Wilks, and IMO mostly because Keim who arguably FU the player personnel and his "extreme DUI" are still there.

[whatdrought]

1 minute ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

As I said above (and trying to keep it focused on football, or at least having a tie in to football), I view the Rooney Rule as too little too late, just like other forms of affirmative action.

It goes way back - are black players who have an interest in coaching getting encouragement to develop whatever extra skills they need?  Are they being evaluated evenly?  Offered equal mentoring?  When they are assistants, are they seen as equally capable, and helped to build whatever ancillary skills they need in an equitable way?  Because if they aren't, for whatever reason, then you have a system where "merit" is defined by the people already in the system, and who not unnaturally tend to define it in a way that pulls out folks just like themselves and it's a self-perpetuating situation.

 

The problem with the "free market" notion, is that when you have a monopoly controlled by 32 people hiring HC and then a second monopoly controlled by 32 HC hires who bring in their buddies as OC, DC, and assistants, there just isn't a lot of free market force at play.  Hopefully we can agree on that?

I noticed something interesting in @Nervous Guy 's post above listing coaches fired after 1 year.  Most of the guys fired after 1 year, were failed retreads like Chip Kelly, Mike Mularky, and Jim Mora who IMO shouldn't have been given a second (or nth) shot in the first place.  How do you feel that fits with the whole "free market" notion of hiring? 

 

I think the breakdown is that people (like Burleson) want to use the end resault to prove the issues. Instead of addressing those peripheral issues (which do need to be addressed where they exist) there are people who hold up Vance Joseph as an example of a racist coaching system. 

 

Im absolutely fine with condemning institutional racism where it exists, but I don’t see it in the examples that drove this thread. 

 

As to your question- same way I feel about guys like Andy Reid and Bill Belichick being given second chances. It can end well, or poorly. Those teams suffered for their poor choices and most of them are still suffering.

 

 

Just now, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Fair enough. 

 

The one firing that IMO raises the eyebrows is Wilks, and IMO mostly because Keim who arguably FU the player personnel and his "extreme DUI" are still there.

 

Meh, Wilkes is questionable but he definitely didn’t do anything to inspire.  I find it hard to argue racism there because the same people that hired him last year are firing him this year and going through the headache of hiring a new coach. Just a bad hire, or so it would seem. 

[Beast]

3 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

As I said above (and trying to keep it focused on football, or at least having a tie in to football), I view the Rooney Rule as too little too late, just like other forms of affirmative action.

It goes way back - are black players who have an interest in coaching getting encouragement to develop whatever extra skills they need?  Are they being evaluated evenly?  Offered equal mentoring?  When they are assistants, are they seen as equally capable, and helped to build whatever ancillary skills they need in an equitable way?  Because if they aren't, for whatever reason, then you have a system where "merit" is defined by the people already in the system, and who not unnaturally tend to define it in a way that pulls out folks just like themselves and it's a self-perpetuating situation.

 

The problem with the "free market" notion, is that when you have a monopoly controlled by 32 people hiring HC and then a second monopoly controlled by 32 HC hires who bring in their buddies as OC, DC, and assistants, there just isn't a lot of free market force at play.  Hopefully we can agree on that?

I noticed something interesting in @Nervous Guy 's post above listing coaches fired after 1 year.  Most of the guys fired after 1 year, were failed retreads like Chip Kelly, Mike Mularky, and Jim Mora who IMO shouldn't have been given a second (or nth) shot in the first place.  How do you feel that fits with the whole "free market" notion of hiring? 

 

Malarkey actually did deserve a second chance. He had one of only two winning seasons in Buffalo this century.

 

Chip Kelly had success in Philly. He was 26-21 there before going to SF.

 

Mora also had a winning record in Atlanta.

 

I’m not sure that any of those three, at the time they went to their second team, should have been considered “failed retreads”.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

Rex got fired after 2 seasons here.

 

Rob Chudzinsky got fired after 1 season in Cleveland. 

 

Josh McDaniels lasted less than two years in Denver. 

 

Jim Tomsula got one year with the 49ers

 

Cam Cameron got one year with the Dolphins. 

 

 

Sorry Nate you have no case.