Broken Pass Protections - Why? What's the Fix?

[3rdand12]

2 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

Bills RBs are averaging over 4 YPC.  There is no excuse to not run the ball.

 

And yes, my friend ... I could absolutely (and hopefully) be wrong.  I've just been scratching my head A LOT throughout this young season.

i might add, the O line is much better at the run game. per player over last season. Miller was more of a grinder and Mills sucked at PP but fooled some folks with his run game stat graded out favorably, Ducasse even better if i recall ??

Get good at something Bills !

 I think run game should be the focus of Coaches, Practice and game planning. best hope of survival for all. maybe even some wins ?

 its seems oddly simple to me.

 

3 minutes ago, LittleJoeCartwright said:

If the O-Line is incompetent as a 5-man unit, maybe they should use more bodies.  I was watching one game last week (Baltimore vs Pitts?) where they showed a replay that the offense added a 6 th lineman plus a TE to pass block.  The QB had all day to throw.  They didn't even form a traditional pocket.  It was like an impenetrable wall.

 

Again, why do the Bills continue to run 4 wideouts on 3rd downs when the 5 man line doesn't give the QB enough time to find them?  How about DiMarco in the backfield as additional protection?  Allen should begin to recognize defenses more with experience so give him some more help until he can.

They do mix that in there, did it quite a bit last year if i can recall ?
thing is , Bills miss key blocks. as if the play call is wrong and or no one is calling for adjustment ( Allen ).
good point though. It did work a couple years ago. But we have lost some of those players like Seantrel .
Max protect/ heavy/. heavy heavy/  might be a good idea before the season is over heck we might get to red zone goal line lined up if we still cannot move the line in shorts downs...

[Gugny]

7 minutes ago, 3rdand12 said:

i might add, the O line is much better at the run game. per player over last season. Miller was more of a grinder and Mills sucked at PP but fooled some folks with his run game stat graded out favorably, Ducasse even better if i recall ??

Get good at something Bills !

 I think run game should be the focus of Coaches, Practice and game planning. best hope of survival for all. maybe even some wins ?

 its seems oddly simple to me.

 

And with a rookie QB who is obviously still developing, wouldn't you think it's a no-brainer to support him with a run game?  Especially when they actually have good RBs???

 

Maybe I'm just simple.  I don't know.

[3rdand12]

27 minutes ago, ctk232 said:

Both LBs were likely supposed to rush on this play since the DE (#93) was responsible for the TE. Don't think they were supposed to both go up the same gap, but given that you could evacuate the entire west coast in the event of an earthquake through the A gap that Miller left, I can't argue with them both just walking right through there.

 

You can credit Pettine to a point here, and while I wholly agree with your analysis of Pettine as a DC and the Rex school, the line play we are seeing is more a direct result of Castillo AND Daboll. But Castillo has done little to prepare these guys to play positions he literally knows nothing about. It's not completely on them - Miller has regressed since entering the league, and Ducasse should be in retirement by now, but our OL and OC haven't done much to fix these issues thus far.

i did send the chuckle emote to you on the bolded.
 as you might suggest _ the situation has not been managed at all well.

and at more than one level I suppose

[Happy]

Just now, 3rdand12 said:

any thoughts on his replacement ?

 

btw i think they are committed for the season to Daboll . just a gut feeling though

 

Either Daboll or Castillo's replacement should be selected by the outside third party (some may call them a guru, others a consultant) who would actually understand offenses and have a good idea of what position coaches are ready to assume an OC position.  My thoughts on who that might be are meaningless at this point and probably wrong, anyway.  But there are people who have been around and studied the league for long enough who would know this.  I'd think this third party resource would also know FA offensive players, which I'm terrified of McD having a hand in identifying and don't have a lot of faith in our pro personnel dept at this point.

 

It's not unheard of for coaches to remove coordinators and position coaches mid year, but it would not surprise me if McD is committed to Daboll this season.  The bye week deadline might be wishful thinking if a current position coach on another team is identified as a potential replacement.  At some point though, the Pegulas should start to wonder if McD has any kind of grasp of offense.

[Nihilarian]

2 minutes ago, 3rdand12 said:

any thoughts on his replacement ?

 

btw i think they are committed for the season to Daboll . just a gut feeling though

WRs coach Terry Robiskie has experience as an NFL HC & OC and he coached a young Marcus Mariota at Tenn. 

 

I don't think I'd wait as long as some others suggest as the Jets game/bye week. The Bills have Tenn, Houston, Indy, NE, Chicago, Jets ahead before the bye week and currently 1-3.

I think you need a decision in order to save the season and should the Bills lose the next three in a similar fashion to three of the first four. I'd make a change after the Indy game and even then it might not be fast enough to save this year if Allen gets injured before then.

 

Nathan Peterman as the starter...

[3rdand12]

1 minute ago, Gugny said:

 

And with a rookie QB who is obviously still developing, wouldn't you think it's a no-brainer to support him with a run game?  Especially when they actually have good RBs???

 

Maybe I'm just simple.  I don't know.

two simpletons in a bar....

1 minute ago, Happy Gilmore said:

 

Either Daboll or Castillo's replacement should be selected by the outside third party (some may call them a guru, others a consultant) who would actually understand offenses and have a good idea of what position coaches are ready to assume an OC position.  My thoughts on who that might be are meaningless at this point and probably wrong, anyway.  But there are people who have been around and studied the league for long enough who would know this.  I'd think this third party resource would also know FA offensive players, which I'm terrified of McD having a hand in identifying and don't have a lot of faith in our pro personnel dept at this point.

 

It's not unheard of for coaches to remove coordinators and position coaches mid year, but it would not surprise me if McD is committed to Daboll this season.  The bye week deadline might be wishful thinking if a current position coach on another team is identified as a potential replacement.  At some point though, the Pegulas should start to wonder if McD has any kind of grasp of offense.

So for fun : )
i mean that Happy : )|

Frazier

 guy who has been around forever and seen it all from a defensive and head coaches perspective.
Do you think he can spot an OC worth a dang ?
can McD ?

 just a theoretical. 

 

[Drunken Pygmy Goat]

 

1 hour ago, Gugny said:

 

Agree on everything - but I do give the offense more credit for the MIN game..  The lack of running game is criminal.  If McCoy is hurt and that's why he only had 5 carries, then so be it.  But NO ONE had carries.

 

McDermott's not-so -subtle call out of Daboll was a great sign.  My feeling is that Daboll is married to an offensive game plan and stubborn.  Problem is ... his game plan is more suited for Drew Brees or Tom Brady.  We ran into stubborn bull **** setting this team back years with the Ryan circus.  If McDermott enables another round of it and the Pegulas sit and let it happen again, I'll be close to my wit's end.

 

Hard to disagree with this.

 

But TBH, I like some of what Daboll has done in the passing game, as far as concepts goes, and play calls. Those "passes" to the motioning man pre-snap (one was incorrectly called a fumble...), the heavy swing passes that set up the Croom TD against Minnesota, the QB sneak/dive for a TD...those are classic BB moves. Yeah, we don't have Brady, but it was nice to see some competence out there at times. Unfortunately it's not been consistent enough (understandably so with a rookie QB), and the Packers game was pretty bad. BUT, there were plays against GB where guys were open, but the QB didn't see them or was hurried.

Edited October 6, 2018 by Drunken Pygmy Goat

[3rdand12]

8 minutes ago, Nihilarian said:

WRs coach Terry Robiskie has experience as an NFL HC & OC and he coached a young Marcus Mariota at Tenn. 

 

I don't think I'd wait as long as some others suggest as the Jets game/bye week. The Bills have Tenn, Houston, Indy, NE, Chicago, Jets ahead before the bye week and currently 1-3.

I think you need a decision in order to save the season and should the Bills lose the next three in a similar fashion to three of the first four. I'd make a change after the Indy game and even then it might not be fast enough to save this year if Allen gets injured before then.

 

Nathan Peterman as the starter...

I do not know if agree about being so quick to move Robiskie up. No reason he should not be helping Daboll succeed right now.Team game and all. with that much exp between those two , i might hope they could sort this out in short order, with what tools they have ( players)

but thank you for bringing up the likely logical next man up ! good to consider what might transpire .

[Happy]

20 minutes ago, 3rdand12 said:

two simpletons in a bar....

So for fun : )
i mean that Happy : )|

Frazier

 guy who has been around forever and seen it all from a defensive and head coaches perspective.
Do you think he can spot an OC worth a dang ?
can McD ?

 just a theoretical. 

 

 

I'm still not sold on Frazier figuring out the defense.  He needed McD to take over the play calling vs Chargers and hasn't put together a consistent defensive plan this season; a couple of really bad plans and one good plan (Vikings against a QB they didn't fear in Cousins).  I'm not going to rely on him to spot an OC.  Plus, like you mentioned, Frazier has been around the league a long time and is a former HC who most likely developed a lot of relationships with coaches.  What is to stop him from recommending a buddy who he owes a favor, or is close to?  IMO, this is part of the problem with McD - the good old boy network - which may have worked years ago when the game was less complex, but not today.

I don't think McD can spot an OC, or really knows enough about offense.  Dennison, and so far Daboll selections, supports that point.

Edited October 6, 2018 by Happy Gilmore

[Happy]

44 minutes ago, 3rdand12 said:

I do not know if agree about being so quick to move Robiskie up. No reason he should not be helping Daboll succeed right now.Team game and all. with that much exp between those two , i might hope they could sort this out in short order, with what tools they have ( players)

but thank you for bringing up the likely logical next man up ! good to consider what might transpire .

 

What if, as pointed out in an earlier post, Daboll is married to his scheme and is stubborn?  Maybe Robiskie is trying to make suggestions, but is being brushed off by Daboll?  I don't know either way, but those are possibilities.

[3rdand12]

43 minutes ago, Happy Gilmore said:

 

I'm still not sold on Frazier figuring out the defense.  He needed McD to take over the play calling vs Chargers and hasn't put together a consistent defensive plan this season; a couple of really bad plans and one good plan (Vikings against a QB they didn't fear in Cousins).  I'm not going to rely on him to spot an OC.  Plus, like you mentioned, Frazier has been around the league a long time and is a former HC who most likely developed a lot of relationships with coaches.  What is to stop him from recommending a buddy who he owes a favor, or is close to?  IMO, this is part of the problem with McD - the good old boy network - which may have worked years ago when the game was less complex, but not today.

I don't think McD can spot an OC, or really knows enough about offense.  Dennison, and so far Daboll selections, supports that point.

point taken about Frazier.

 I might suggest knowledge is just one feature of a DC. Leslie has a ton of it.
there are always areas where a Coach is lacking. There is a reason he is no longer a HC. nor should he be.
But it got McD up and running and that might be enough for now.

as with any position ? Keep looking to upgrade. But Frazier has seen quite a bit and surely is a good resource. Is he a good game day or week in week out Coach for The Defense ?

not at this juncture. Try again later

9 minutes ago, Happy Gilmore said:

 

What if, as pointed out in an earlier post, Daboll is married to his scheme and is stubborn?  Maybe Robiskie is trying to make suggestions, but is being brushed off by Daboll?  I don't know either way, but those are possibilities.

because i will not put the effort into prove it via links  lol
But Brian has been described as versatile multi and week to week scheming. and that what i expected. So yea i have some bias and patience.
If Daboll, at this stage of the game is not listening ? Then shame on him.

 i will call it a rookie season that needs to pick up the pace offensively and keep Allen alive for next season at least

[Happy]

2 minutes ago, 3rdand12 said:

as with any position ? Keep looking to upgrade. But Frazier has seen quite a bit and surely is a good resource. Is he a good game day or week in week out Coach for The Defense ?

not at this juncture. Try again later

 

Like you, I'm not 100% sold on Frazier, either.  But he's certainly not the biggest coaching problem we have right now.  At this point, he just needs to focus on making consistently good defensive game plans.  Frazier's strength is his ability to coach up the defense, and he's done a good job with that.  Having rookies at MLB, DT, and CB is a challenge but they're getting better week after week.  It's Frazier's in game calls that I'd like to see be a little more aggressive, particularly when facing better QBs like Rivers and Rogers.

[3rdand12]

5 minutes ago, Happy Gilmore said:

 

Like you, I'm not 100% sold on Frazier, either.  But he's certainly not the biggest coaching problem we have right now.  At this point, he just needs to focus on making consistently good defensive game plans.  Frazier's strength is his ability to coach up the defense, and he's done a good job with that.  Having rookies at MLB, DT, and CB is a challenge but they're getting better week after week.  It's Frazier's in game calls that I'd like to see be a little more aggressive, particularly when facing better QBs like Rivers and Rogers.

 he might be one of those stubborn old school " get off my lawn "  types .

and McD has to wind his clock up now  and again           ha ha

 He certainly plays conservative overall .

[Augie]

I never thought Castillo would be here again this year. 

[Nihilarian]

1 hour ago, LittleJoeCartwright said:

If the O-Line is incompetent as a 5-man unit, maybe they should use more bodies.  I was watching one game last week (Baltimore vs Pitts?) where they showed a replay that the offense added a 6 th lineman plus a TE to pass block.  The QB had all day to throw.  They didn't even form a traditional pocket.  It was like an impenetrable wall.

 

Again, why do the Bills continue to run 4 wideouts on 3rd downs when the 5 man line doesn't give the QB enough time to find them?  How about DiMarco in the backfield as additional protection?  Allen should begin to recognize defenses more with experience so give him some more help until he can.

1

The Bills did go with a 7 man line in that first series at GB after McCoy made 7 yards on first down they ran him again out of the I formation on second down up the middle and he got two yards. They went with Ivory on 3rd and one and he was stuffed.

 

This with the Bills having 7 men on the line facing 5 packers on the line. The Packers Lbers saw run and they closed to the line fast. Ducasse overran the hole and allowed a Packer inside. 

 

After that failed 3rd and one, the Bills didn't even attempt many runs the rest of the game despite McCoy getting 4.8 YPC average. Shady saw 5 carries all game and he stated that the game plan going into this game was to get him the ball more.    

 

The Bills players on the line are incompetent as is the line coaching as is the play calling.

 

 

 

Yes, the defense has been starting slow. Now stop and think about what the defense would look like if the Bills had a strong run game! The defense wouldn't be on the field as much and should the Bills get the lead I can see the defense doing to many teams what they did to the Vikings...provided Hughes isn't mugged, tackled, held at the line like he was in GB.

 

The defense is the least of the team's problems right now IMO.

 

 

Edited October 6, 2018 by Nihilarian

[Nihilarian]

Someone else mentioned that Daboll calls offensive pass plays like he has Tom Brady at QB. Backed up at their own 6-yard line at GB Daboll calls 3 pass plays over even attempting to run to get some room to throw. On 3rd and 10 he calls for a 20 yard out? 

 

So, even if the line manages to hold their blocks, and even if the receivers do get separation and find a way to get open Allen needs to throw an accurate pass that can be caught. 

 

Sounds like an awful lot of "ifs" to get the passing game right. Wouldn't it be simpler to work the run game and then let Allen pick and choose his passes? Play action might actually work if the Bills could run the ball. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 hours ago, Drunken Pygmy Goat said:

I don't want to seem like a "Mr. Argue", but based on what we've seen so far with Allen and the Bills offense, going back to the Panthers game, combined with the lack of talent/cohesion across the line, these type of blitzes are exactly what I expect to see from time to time.

 

To my understanding, this is not a blitz.  This may seem a terminology quibble, my point is that sending 3 down linemen and 2 linebackers from a 3-4D on a pass play is very vanilla.  Nothing exotic, there are 5 hats on each side, Get it done.  It wasn't some clever disguise or stunt it's on Allen toreact to just before the snap.

 

As someone said elsewhere, without knowing the assignments it seems as though it's a mistake by Miller, he should funnel the DE to Mills and pick up the lead LB.  He could use that LB against the second guy, and the extra fractions of second would buy time for Allen to make a better throw downfield, or to see Zay coming across the middle and hit him.  Either way moves the chains.

 

I dunno about "condescending", but you seem determined to amp a blocking mistake into a defensive mastermind exploiting a rookie QB.  Yes, Green Bay was doing lots of the late shifts and disguised blitzes to try to exploit the rookie QB, and yes it's on film we're susceptible and until we prove we can solve it, it's gonna be thrown at us, but this play was not that thing as far as I can tell and that's why it stood out to me as particularly egregious.

 

I initially mis-timestamped the play, it's at the end of 1Q, not the end of the half.  All the worse, we were only down 6 at that point.

 

 

[Drunken Pygmy Goat]

52 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

To my understanding, this is not a blitz.  This may seem a terminology quibble, my point is that sending 3 down linemen and 2 linebackers from a 3-4D on a pass play is very vanilla.  Nothing exotic, there are 5 hats on each side, Get it done.  It wasn't some clever disguise or stunt it's on Allen toreact to just before the snap.

 

As someone said elsewhere, without knowing the assignments it seems as though it's a mistake by Miller, he should funnel the DE to Mills and pick up the lead LB.  He could use that LB against the second guy, and the extra fractions of second would buy time for Allen to make a better throw downfield, or to see Zay coming across the middle and hit him.  Either way moves the chains.

 

I dunno about "condescending", but you seem determined to amp a blocking mistake into a defensive mastermind exploiting a rookie QB.  Yes, Green Bay was doing lots of the late shifts and disguised blitzes to try to exploit the rookie QB, and yes it's on film we're susceptible and until we prove we can solve it, it's gonna be thrown at us, but this play was not that thing as far as I can tell and that's why it stood out to me as particularly egregious.

 

I initially mis-timestamped the play, it's at the end of 1Q, not the end of the half.  All the worse, we were only down 6 at that point.

 

 

 

Not determined at all...maybe I'm just guilty of over-thinking the situation, or maybe just trying to add another perspective. It was absolutely a poor job by the line, and I agree with your description of how it could have been handled differently by Miller. But I also feel like it was that, plus good work by the opponent; studying film and exploiting a weaknesses. I'm not absolving the players on the line of any responsibility. It's more of a combination of a good strategy by GB and poor play by the line IMO. 

 

Bottom line is that the Bills need to do a better job of blocking and picking up blitzers, whether that falls on the players and/or coaches. I think most of us have a good idea of what we have in these guys and the line coach. Either they improve, or the McBeane will need to make moves to improve there.

[billspro]

4 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

You might find some interest in this interview of Eric Wood by Erik Turner up on Youtube.  About 19:35 into it, he starts talking about the differences between working with a vet QB vs a young QB and how the center takes a larger role with the young guy.  It's pretty clear also from the play they talk through, that setting those protections at the line is a huge challenge in a noisy visiting stadium.  

 

Anyway, if it's being left to Allen as a rookie to be setting the protections, that's just WRONG.  It's too much on his plate.  Wood did it for EJ and Taylor.  Bodine or Groy should be doing it for Allen.  That's not to say that Allen doesn't have a role in recognizing in an overload who the unblocked guy is going to be and what that means for his reads, or in this case recognize that if the LB rush that leaves space for crossing routes over the middle.  But this is a "hat on hat" situation, and it really shouldn't be Allen's job to define who's got the MLB if he comes.  Know what the MLB rushing means to coverage, yes.  Define who picks him up, no.

 

 

 

Completely agree, Bodine is a 4 year vet. Setting the protections should be second nature for him now. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 hours ago, Nihilarian said:

Someone else mentioned that Daboll calls offensive pass plays like he has Tom Brady at QB. Backed up at their own 6-yard line at GB Daboll calls 3 pass plays over even attempting to run to get some room to throw. On 3rd and 10 he calls for a 20 yard out? 

 

So, even if the line manages to hold their blocks, and even if the receivers do get separation and find a way to get open Allen needs to throw an accurate pass that can be caught. 

 

Sounds like an awful lot of "ifs" to get the passing game right. Wouldn't it be simpler to work the run game and then let Allen pick and choose his passes? Play action might actually work if the Bills could run the ball. 

 

It might be simpler to work the run game, but much of the time these first 4 games our run blocking has been a total hot mess.  Some of the time in the passing game, Allen has actually had reasonable protection.

[Paulus]

6 hours ago, frostbitmic said:

Would he have his dead fathers head hanging in his locker ?

JoBu seems fine wit it.

 

Edited October 6, 2018 by Paulus

[billsredneck1]

7 hours ago, Nihilarian said:

The Bills did go with a 7 man line in that first series at GB after McCoy made 7 yards on first down they ran him again out of the I formation on second down up the middle and he got two yards. They went with Ivory on 3rd and one and he was stuffed.

 

This with the Bills having 7 men on the line facing 5 packers on the line. The Packers Lbers saw run and they closed to the line fast. Ducasse overran the hole and allowed a Packer inside. 

 

After that failed 3rd and one, the Bills didn't even attempt many runs the rest of the game despite McCoy getting 4.8 YPC average. Shady saw 5 carries all game and he stated that the game plan going into this game was to get him the ball more.    

 

The Bills players on the line are incompetent as is the line coaching as is the play calling.

 

 

 

Yes, the defense has been starting slow. Now stop and think about what the defense would look like if the Bills had a strong run game! The defense wouldn't be on the field as much and should the Bills get the lead I can see the defense doing to many teams what they did to the Vikings...provided Hughes isn't mugged, tackled, held at the line like he was in GB.

 

The defense is the least of the team's problems right now IMO.

 

 

the officiating seemed like it was payback for the bills having killed the vegas line the week before.  it was criminal.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

11 hours ago, 3rdand12 said:

Daboll is new. Castillo likely gets benefit of the doubt till last weekend.
time to move on. Daboll should have found a guy by now and McB should trust Brian to run BD's offense via Daboll's new O line Coach.

it's not you, it's not me . it's Castillo who is ruining Sundays

whos with me..

 

TBH, I don't know if I'm with you or not. 

 

Last year, the performance of the OL fell off, but they weren't this incompetent.  This year, it appears to me they are trying to use different techniques more frequently - more cut blocks and pin/pull - that they are not performing effectively.

 

Whether that's on Daboll (the OC) or Castillo (the OL coach and 'run game coordinator'), I can't tell you.  Maybe Daboll insists on this stuff and Castillo goes into Daboll's office, shuts the door, and argues that other techniques would better suit his men than what Daboll demands while Daboll pounds the desk and orders him to coach better so they learn to do it.  Or maybe this is stuff Castillo wanted all along and Dennison kept a lid on him.

 

All I know is, McDermott is the HC and ensuring that a well-prepared team using schemes and techniques that give them the best chance of success takes the field is on him, ultimately.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

9 hours ago, Nihilarian said:

The Bills did go with a 7 man line in that first series at GB after McCoy made 7 yards on first down they ran him again out of the I formation on second down up the middle and he got two yards. They went with Ivory on 3rd and one and he was stuffed.

 

This with the Bills having 7 men on the line facing 5 packers on the line. The Packers Lbers saw run and they closed to the line fast. Ducasse overran the hole and allowed a Packer inside. 

 

After that failed 3rd and one, the Bills didn't even attempt many runs the rest of the game despite McCoy getting 4.8 YPC average. Shady saw 5 carries all game and he stated that the game plan going into this game was to get him the ball more.    

 

The Bills players on the line are incompetent as is the line coaching as is the play calling.

 

The blocking on that 2nd down play 2nd and 3, was odd.  Do you have all-22? 

It was a straightforward blocking scheme and overall each man handled his assignment OK.   Clay on the L, in particular, is doing a nice job 1:1 on GB #53.

Shady has no lead blocker and is supposed to run up the middle, straight into the unblocked MLB.  That seems to be the play design and that's a problem right there, as that's just not Shady's thing but that is "the running back life" so suck it up, Shady.  If they ran Ivory there, he might have put on a bigger head of steam straight ahead and gotten another yard.

 

OK odd part.  Dawkins is standing around all play with nothing to do.  Maybe he was originally assigned to help with the LB, but Clay is "I got this, man".  So what is Dawkins supposed to contribute?   A double- team on the the GB DE, who is forcing Ducasse back towards the hole as Shady hits it, would make sense, but it's only after the hole closes with Shady in it that Dawkins is like "oh, OK, over here then"

 

3rd and 1.  That was also just a strange play design taking our personnel and GB personnel into account.  Yeah, you're right, it was 5 on 7, but the entire GB backfield knew we were gonna run, and the line assymmetry made it pretty clear where we intended to run it.  So there are two CB and a LB off the line at the point of attack revving their engines.   In the all-22 pre snap you can count all 11 defenders within yards of the line.   I wouldn't put it "Ducasse over ran the hole and allowed a packer inside".  Over on the rt edge they have DIMARCO on MATTHEWS.  Seriously?  DiMarco blocking Matthews?  The guy who tossed Mills aside like a limp rag?   By the time Ducasse gets there, Matthews has shoved Dimarco over to close the hole Ducasse is supposed to block through, and the LB and CB have joined the party.  I think Ducasse tries to help Dimarco and keep the hole clear enough for Ivory to get his yard, but DiMarco and Ducasse against Matthews and another LB, they lose. 

 

To me, it's too cute, strange as it seems describing a 7 man front as "cute".  They need a freakin' yard.  They would have been better off just sending Ivory up the middle without a lead blocker while everyone else is over on the heavy side where they think the action is.   Or they had good success with duo later in the game, why not try that here?

 

 

 

[SoTier]

13 hours ago, Patrick_Duffy said:

The fix? The fix is obviously better linemen needed. Which won't happen til the offseason. And maybe the Oline coach may have a little to do with it. ?

 

The "fix" is to can McDermott and his henchman Beane.  The Bills offensive and defensive performances this season attest to exactly how incompetent these two are.

[Fixxxer]

15 hours ago, NewEra said:

4 of our OLmen are bums.  Castillo is a bum. All should be looking for jobs next season.  One season too late.  

 

Not only they're bums, they must not be very smart, because they can't seem to read where the pressure will come from. They are slow to assess the situation and they're slow to react to it. 

[SoCal Deek]

What does everyone expect? Over the last eight years the Bills have drafted a grand total of three offensive linemen in the first four rounds! And one of them (Glenn) isn’t on the team anymore. They’ve been dumpster diving for a solid decade and we’re all seeing the results.

[Mickey]

14 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

...I'm sorry, but that "the fix is better linemen" is just bunk on this play.  Unless these guys have the brains of corn root nematodes (which the fact that they're walking about getting dressed argues against), this isn't a case of "better linemen needed"...   

 

You had me at "corn root nematodes".

[Patrick Duffy]

14 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

In some cases, Josh Allen fails to recognize a stunting blitz requires protections to be adjusted so someone will pick up the blitzer, or that the called play plain won't work pre-snap because of the defensive alignment.

 

This was not one of those cases.  This was a straight hat-on-hat 6v6, then the TE peels a guy off with him 5v5. 

 

I commend to you the Eric Wood interview I linked in another post, about 19:30 in.  Usually with a young QB, the center calls the protections at the line.  If they are leaving it to the QB to recognize and make this level of protection assignments, that's incredible. 

 

And when I say incredible, I mean that's crap.  It's putting too much on his plate.

 

 

I'm sorry, but that "the fix is better linemen" is just bunk on this play.  Unless these guys have the brains of corn root nematodes (which the fact that they're walking about getting dressed argues against), this isn't a case of "better linemen needed".   What we have here is plain and simple, a failure to communicate or to Understand One's Job.  A job HS OLs around the country get the flick on every Friday night.

 

Whether it's failure to communicate or "understanding ones' job". Either way, it's safe to say this Oline and WR's for that matter lack a lot of talent. So like I said, it falls into the category of needing better linemen. You can call it "bunk" if you want, it's quite obvious the offensive side of the ball needs a few better players.

 

IMO better linemen would be able to "communicate" or "understand one's job" better. So there is no "just bunk on this play"as you say.It is otherwise "just fact".

[johnnychemo]

13 hours ago, LittleJoeCartwright said:

 

Again, why do the Bills continue to run 4 wideouts on 3rd downs when the 5 man line doesn't give the QB enough time to find them?  How about DiMarco in the backfield as additional protection?  Allen should begin to recognize defenses more with experience so give him some more help until he can.

Just a guess, but it might be a bit of a catch-22 (or drop-22 in this case.) The receivers cant win their battles to get open and must rely on numbers to spring an open man. Keep a guy in to block, nobody to throw to. Send 4 receivers, no time to find them. 

[Nihilarian]

11 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

It might be simpler to work the run game, but much of the time these first 4 games our run blocking has been a total hot mess.  Some of the time in the passing game, Allen has actually had reasonable protection.

While I agree that the line blocking has been a hot mess. I don't agree that you just give up on it and put the offense of the rookie QB shoulders like Daboll has been doing. Particularly when Shady McCoy was getting 4.8 YPC average in that GB game and this after only 5 carries. 

 

First of all, while Daboll might have the New England playbook. But he sure as hell isn't calling plays like McDaniels does for Brady. Their first priority is to protect Brady at all costs so the entire offense works in unison to pick up blocks if needed before their routes.

 

Their second priority is to move the chains and make first downs with runs, dump offs to the RB (their leading pass catcher against the Colts was RB James White, Gronk was 2nd, Edelman was 3rd) Throws to the TE, short outs and once the QB establishes a rhythm and makes some first down they can take some chance with deeper downfield throws.  

 

Daboll isn't doing anything like that as he is trying to establish a deep downfield passing game when has so many issues to contend with. QB inability in reading protections and the line not helping with those reads at all. The receivers failing to get separation and get open. The line not managing to hold their blocks most of the time or blocking the wrong man. 

 

It should be easier to find ways to establish a run game besides the "I" formation run right up the middle. Need to get McCoy the ball and do it as the Patriots do with White as McCoy is even better.
 

 

Which begs the question? How much longer? How many more loses before McD gets more involved with the offense? He has to know that no run game is killing the defense. At what point does he make a change? 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

14 minutes ago, Nihilarian said:

While I agree that the line blocking has been a hot mess. I don't agree that you just give up on it and put the offense of the rookie QB shoulders like Daboll has been doing. Particularly when Shady McCoy was getting 4.8 YPC average in that GB game and this after only 5 carries.

(...)

It should be easier to find ways to establish a run game besides the "I" formation run right up the middle. Need to get McCoy the ball and do it as the Patriots do with White as McCoy is even better.
 

Which begs the question? How much longer? How many more loses before McD gets more involved with the offense? He has to know that no run game is killing the defense. At what point does he make a change? 

 

Actually, the "I" formation right up the middle has been one of the more successful plays for our OL.

Seriously.

 

I agree with you that we need to fix the run game as a top priority, it was just that you said " Sounds like an awful lot of "ifs" to get the passing game right. Wouldn't it be simpler to work the run game and then let Allen pick and choose his passes? Play action might actually work if the Bills could run the ball. "

 

The reason it's not simpler, is because right now the blocking for the run game is a total hot mess.  I see glimmers of hope that it can be improved - we do have successful plays here and there, but most of the successes that I've seen to date are plays that don't suit McCoy very well as they feature the back slamming right up the middle through a small hole into a LB, without a lead blocker.  There are a few where McCoy bounces it outside.

 

It's not simpler, but it needs to be done.  I do agree that it's totally nuts to put the weight of the offense on Allen.  Among other things, while our pass blocking is better than our run blocking, it's still on-again, off again and I fear it will teach Allen bad habits.

[3rdand12]

9 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

TBH, I don't know if I'm with you or not. 

 

Last year, the performance of the OL fell off, but they weren't this incompetent.  This year, it appears to me they are trying to use different techniques more frequently - more cut blocks and pin/pull - that they are not performing effectively.

 

Whether that's on Daboll (the OC) or Castillo (the OL coach and 'run game coordinator'), I can't tell you.  Maybe Daboll insists on this stuff and Castillo goes into Daboll's office, shuts the door, and argues that other techniques would better suit his men than what Daboll demands while Daboll pounds the desk and orders him to coach better so they learn to do it.  Or maybe this is stuff Castillo wanted all along and Dennison kept a lid on him.

 

All I know is, McDermott is the HC and ensuring that a well-prepared team using schemes and techniques that give them the best chance of success takes the field is on him, ultimately.

Its fair to question my opinion, as i am certainly guessing at best. I would find it hard to believe it is one Coach or one issue.

 And that is why your point about McDermott is spot on.

 Lets see what the Offense dishes up Sunday and reconvene : )

[3rdand12]

7 hours ago, Mickey said:

 

You had me at "corn root nematodes".

I mean , how do you argue  a point like that  ?  lol

[ColoradoBills]

9 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

TBH, I don't know if I'm with you or not. 

 

Last year, the performance of the OL fell off, but they weren't this incompetent.  This year, it appears to me they are trying to use different techniques more frequently - more cut blocks and pin/pull - that they are not performing effectively.

 

Whether that's on Daboll (the OC) or Castillo (the OL coach and 'run game coordinator'), I can't tell you.  Maybe Daboll insists on this stuff and Castillo goes into Daboll's office, shuts the door, and argues that other techniques would better suit his men than what Daboll demands while Daboll pounds the desk and orders him to coach better so they learn to do it.  Or maybe this is stuff Castillo wanted all along and Dennison kept a lid on him.

 

All I know is, McDermott is the HC and ensuring that a well-prepared team using schemes and techniques that give them the best chance of success takes the field is on him, ultimately.

 

It's a good question you are asking Hap.  I would like to add some speculation to it.

Why did Daboll call a game plan the way he did in GB last Sunday?  When you think about it, he called what would be a "normal" NFL 2018 game.

Heavy passing in which a decent amount of plays were down field plays.  What did he gain from doing this?  He could of called a run heavy dink and dunk.

He could of "schemed" to protect the OL.

 

One result that happened is everyone (media, fans, and even McDermott) started talking almost exclusively about the O-Line.

 

It seems to me that Beane, McDermott, Daboll and Castillo all have something to do with this situation.

When the O-Line got neglected in FA (Bodine and the now cut Newhouse) and the draft (5th on Teller) someone had to OK the results.

 

Did Daboll think it was enough?  I would question that because at the time of year he hadn't even met with any of his linemen.  He is stuck with what he has.

Did Castillo think it was enough?  I would think he was included in the Bodine Newhouse pickups.

Did Beane tell Daboll and Castillo that this is the plan and that's all you guys got to work with this year?

What was McDermott's opinion on this whole thing?  Is he telling Castillo and Daboll to coach up what they got because he thinks talent wise they are

good enough?  Not being an offensive guy he may have been doing that.  He has insinuated they just got to try harder.

 

Fast forward to the end of the 3rd game and the OL has serious questions.

Then Daboll calls a game where the OL has to perform to make his game plan work.

Now the OL is front and center in everyone's conversations.

 

I'm really curious on what kind of game Daboll call tomorrow.  In front of the home crowd I foresee one that assists the bad OL.

But by doing that it limits what the offense can do.  One thing I don't want to have happen is that Daboll spends all year doing that

and come FA time the Bills re-sign Mills and Miller, add 1 guy in FA and draft a 3rd rounder saying "That's good enough in fixing the OL".

 

I know if I was a new OC and was forced to create a plan for the offensive talent (both OL and WR) I was

given I know I would want to show my Defensive orientated HC exactly what I got to work with.

 

Then again Daboll could just be an idiot.  Castillo is still McDermott's boy and a new OC comes in next year.

I sure hope that's not what's going to happen.

 

 

[Scott7975]

On ‎10‎/‎5‎/‎2018 at 3:54 PM, dpberr said:

It's more evidence to heap on  a mountain of evidence that Juan Castillo needs to be fired.  He's the guy in charge of making sure "his" guys know what they are doing.

 

It's clear they don't.  

 

These gameday errors are made because of shotty game day prep and a lack of focus and discipline.  Considering the OL issues go back to training camp, that suggests it's a systemic disconnect between OC, unit coach and personnel.  I don't think the guys on the OL are stupid  or not good at football, but it's clear they aren't where they should be and to me, that falls on the teachers.  

Yeah I agree.  We may not have the most talented oline, but I simply don't believe these guys are stupid.  This is more a coaching issue than a talent issue IMO.  Of course they need better talent, but I don't think they are as bad as they are being made to look.

[Scott7975]

Even Kent Hull made line calls with Jim Kelly behind him.

[ColoradoBills]

5 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

Even Kent Hull made line calls with Jim Kelly behind him.

 

Geez, could you imagine how a 30 year old Kent Hull could help Josh Allen this year!

[billsredneck1]

13 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

TBH, I don't know if I'm with you or not. 

 

Last year, the performance of the OL fell off, but they weren't this incompetent.  This year, it appears to me they are trying to use different techniques more frequently - more cut blocks and pin/pull - that they are not performing effectively.

 

Whether that's on Daboll (the OC) or Castillo (the OL coach and 'run game coordinator'), I can't tell you.  Maybe Daboll insists on this stuff and Castillo goes into Daboll's office, shuts the door, and argues that other techniques would better suit his men than what Daboll demands while Daboll pounds the desk and orders him to coach better so they learn to do it.  Or maybe this is stuff Castillo wanted all along and Dennison kept a lid on him.

 

All I know is, McDermott is the HC and ensuring that a well-prepared team using schemes and techniques that give them the best chance of success takes the field is on him, ultimately.

last year castillo had the title of oline coach and run game coordinator.  last year the run game under the zone blocking scheme stunk ( rico or juan? idk) , before eric and richie explained how they had been successful prior and rico or juan..idk...had to redo.

 

i believe at or before the start of this season,  juan held the same exact title.  again, running game suffering to start off and with the subtractions of richie and eric, there seems to be more confusion/ chaos , WAY more than there should be....even with them gone.

 

juan was here when dabol got hired and i can't see mcd telling dabol, hey if you don't want this guy, by all means hire for yourself.  nah....can't see it.

 

so who and what, is the common denominator here?  billy boy would have them keeping brady clean. me thinks it's positional coaching.

[GreggTX]

The fix is an infux of talent in 2019.