The cap situation McBeane inhereted

[MAJBobby]

2 minutes ago, reddogblitz said:

I don't buy this whole dead cap space it was all we could do stuff.  I see other teams spend like drunken sailors every off season yet Don t get into "cap hell" having to piss away 2 or 3 seasons. I'm thinking Broncos with HUGE contracts for Von and Thomas yet can still sign Case.

 

Its not. Happens all over the league every year. 

 

This was a purge of talent just because they were prior regime players 

[Batman1876]

1 minute ago, MAJBobby said:

The first with the last sentence make the entire post an excuse for this regime, blaming Whaley for the current roster situation. Man up and own it 

Filling 41 roster spots with 50 million is impossible. That was my final line, its also factual. I was just reporting facts and numbers. 

[MAJBobby]

Again what happened to Win now and Win in the future. They cant even field a competitive team. 

 

And what do we here from the coach “its our second year”

[Bing Bong]

3 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

 

My posts in fluff threads about the regime are critical. Go reas my Allen Posts. And thanks for my mental Concern, VA says I am good to go. 

 

But continue with your zero football insight feeble, simple minded insult posts they are comical. 

Stay tuned I"m going to make a fluff thread about the Bills. Regurgitate the same thing people keep saying over and over again. It will be great. "It's okay we're doing bad. All part of the plan! I love the direction we're going!" Are these people from the future or something?

[MAJBobby]

5 minutes ago, Batman1876 said:

Filling 41 roster spots with 50 million is impossible. That was my final line, its also factual. I was just reporting facts and numbers. 

Ok lets deep dive these numbers. 

 

So they had 12 active players at the end of 2016? 

And with those 12 active players at end of 2016 there was only 50m. 

 

So lets list those 12 players that did not have an expiring contract. 

 

Because I am about to expose the spin and the excuse 

Edited September 17, 2018 by MAJBobby

[BillsVet]

1 hour ago, Rigotz said:

There are educated fans and uneducated fans.

 

The educated fans understand the financial side of things and the reasonable expectation that you don't build a super bowl winner over night.

 

The uneducated fans want to GIT ER DONE OBD every single season, which leads to a 7-9 record for two decades.

 

Thank god this franchise is finally aligned with educated fans. We all knew this season would be bad. It's only surprising to the Git Er Done crew.

 

The question now is whether or not one believes the current leadership has a real plan for the long-haul. It’s very true that they have made some mistakes in personnel evaluation and overall roster building strategy. I’m still of the opinion they know what they’re doing but it will take some flexibility, better talent evaluation, and even patience.  Still, the saving grace will be knowing they have a QB and I was good with Allen yesterday. One has to hope Allen improves, they stop under utilizing resources, and they surround the QB with better talent.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

7 minutes ago, PetermanThrew5Picks said:

Stay tuned I"m going to make a fluff thread about the Bills. Regurgitate the same thing people keep saying over and over again. It will be great. "It's okay we're doing bad. All part of the plan! I love the direction we're going!" Are these people from the future or something?

 

Sigh. I'm losing faith that you can be redeemed.

 

 

[billsfan1959]

13 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

 

My posts in fluff threads about the regime are critical. Go reas my Allen Posts. And thanks for my mental Concern, VA says I am good to go. 

 

But continue with your zero football insight feeble, simple minded insult posts they are comical. 

I rest my case. Tick...tick...tick...

[reddogblitz]

7 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

 

Its not. Happens all over the league every year. 

 

This was a purge of talent just because they were prior regime players 

 

At the risk of getting too political, it has the feel of Trump trying to overturn everything Obama did.

 

I do not mean this in any racial context whatsoever.  Just the trying to dump what the old guy did.

[MAJBobby]

2 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said:

I rest my case. Tick...tick...tick...

 

Great contribution. Try to add some football talk in your insults next time 

1 minute ago, reddogblitz said:

 

At the risk of getting too political, it has the feel of Trump trying to overturn everything Obama did.

 

I do not mean this in any racial context whatsoever.  Just the trying to dump what the old guy did.

 

Still waiting for the guy to come back to me with the 12 players on the Bills with 41 needed contracts going into 2017. I know it kida is hard once your fluff piece gets exposed. 

 

And agree 

Edited September 17, 2018 by MAJBobby

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

1 hour ago, Fadingpain said:

The fun part is that many of the know it alls who dominate this forum with their wisdom were fairly strong supporters of Whaley during his time as GM here, often citing, for example, his shrewd ability to find replacement talent around the league and patch holes.

 

Now that he is gone and his mistakes are being magnified, the same people dismiss Whaley as a part of the Bills misguided past.

 

 

 

 

...we'll never really know how much responsibility Whaley actually had......I'd bet it was FAR less than McBeane......Whaley was given a shopping list and told to go find players.....never saw him as managerial material and no way he was responsible for contracts.......that was and still is Overdorf.......so not sure how you pin the Glenn, Dareus & Tyrod deals on him....

 

Bills promote Overdorf to senior VP in minor restructuring

• Associated Press
• Published: Jan. 31, 2008 at 11:34 a.m.
• Updated: July 26, 2012 at 08:17 p.m

ORCHARD PARK, N.Y. -- Jim Overdorf was promoted to Buffalo Bills senior vice president of football administration, giving him control over contract negotiations and salary cap decisions.

 

The move announced Thursday was part of a minor front office restructuring that follows Russ Brandon's promotion to chief operating officer. Brandon's promotion came after the Bills elected not to fill the general manager's role after Marv Levy stepped down at the end of the season.

Edited September 17, 2018 by OldTimeAFLGuy

[Batman1876]

3 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

 

Great contribution. Try to add some football talk in your insults next time 

 

Still waiting for the guy to come back to me with the 12 players on the Bills with 41 needed contracts going into 2017. I know it kida is hard once your fluff piece gets exposed. 

 

And agree 

I think you failed to understand the original post.  You’ve got a ax to grind. And you ignore facts that get in the way. 

[RPbillsfan]

59 minutes ago, Batman1876 said:

Background- Whaley spent to the cap in the 2013 season, 2014 season, 2015 season and 2016 season.  He never rolled over more than 2 mil in any single year. In order to sustain this spending contracts had to be back loaded and contracts needed to be reworked.  These things are common in teams making a championship push, we never made that push but we did pay for the attempt.

 

2017- Heading into the off season we had 24 million in cap space. Our major free agents were Woods, Goodwin, Gilmore, Zack Brown and Lorenzo Alexander. In order to have resigned them they would have needed to rely on cheep contracts now that become expensive later, as well as renegotiating other contracts. Looking ahead these choices would eventually lead to not being able to retain talent, just like retaining Woods, Gilmore and Goodwin was going to be tough in 2017. 

 

Looking ahead to 2018- Talent was going to be lost on the way to 2018, no way around it.  There wouldn't be cap room to replace that talent either meaning the reliance was going to be solely on the draft to fill those gaps. If you look at how our cap would have projected you can see the crunch we were in.  These figures are based on the actual 2018 cap hits of these players or the cost to have kept their contracts in the case of traded players. Some of these players may have had larger cap hits for us as a consequence of squeezing them under our 2017 cap.

 

The players we did not resign

Gilmore- 12.5

Woods-5.5

Goodwin-6.2

Total 24.2

 

The players we traded

Watkins- 13.2 (cost of 5th year option)

Darius- 16

Glenn-15

Tyrod-16

Total-60.2

 

The retirement

Wood- 9

 

Players we kept

Mccoy-9

Clay-9

Hughes-10.4

K Williams- 5.5

Total 33.9

 

The total for that core group of players that our 2016 roster was built around would have been 127.3 million in 2018

 

Leaving 50 Million to sign 2017 rookies, 2018 rookies and fill a total of 41 other roster spots an impossible task.

 

 

Awesome post.  Thank You.  The Bills had a significant salary disaster on their hands.  2018 is the sacrifice, growth and development year.

 

I'm 60, a huge Bills fan, had season tickets in 1964-1975 until I joined the Navy, now live in San Diego and have since 1982.

 

So I want the Bills to succeed but fully accept the one step backwards in the hopes of a major spring forward is the Pathway our current management has chosen.

 

I honestly hope we do end up with the worst record in the league next year and when the NFL Network, ESPN and Fox are in Nashville in April 2019, they will be announcing Nick Bosa with the 1st pick in the draft followed by whatever needs we have with our remaining 9 picks after we use our $91,000,000 worth of cap space wisely.

 

Step back and spring forward is the approach our other team the Buffalo Sabres have done.  Look at the high end potential of that team with tons of young talent and two potential generational players in Jack Eichel and Rasmus Dahlin and a slew talented kids in the farm system and a ton of future high draft picks.

 

For those who are old enough, remember how the Bills added top talent in the 1984-1988 drafts, then added key pieces when the USFL folded and became an NFL Power for 10 years.  Let's hope the same thing happens again

[MAJBobby]

12 minutes ago, Batman1876 said:

I think you failed to understand the original post.  You’ve got a ax to grind. And you ignore facts that get in the way. 

 

Got it. So there wasnt only 12 roster spots and 41 spots needed for 50M to get to 53. 

 

There was 46 players and only 5 needed to get to 51 kick the top 51 rule in. 

 

So yes they could have got to 90 with the draft picks and This number thing you are doing without the purge. 

 

Not to mention they spent 32.7M in cap space that year and 8.3M in cap space going to Holmes, Boldin, Tate, Streeter, Brown, Butler.  (wouldnt Wood look good there??) 

 

 

Edited September 17, 2018 by MAJBobby

[vorpma]

26 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

The first with the last sentence make the entire post an excuse for this regime, blaming Whaley for the current roster situation. Man up and own it 

 

Again dead cap is an excuse made up by those CoTP guys to well not hold this regime accountable for their Roster That they Built this year. 

You know the old saying, opinions are like ...... and you have yours!

[MAJBobby]

3 minutes ago, RPbillsfan said:

Awesome post.  Thank You.  The Bills had a significant salary disaster on their hands.  2018 is the sacrifice, growth and development year.

 

I'm 60, a huge Bills fan, had season tickets in 1964-1975 until I joined the Navy, now live in San Diego and have since 1982.

 

So I want the Bills to succeed but fully accept the one step backwards in the hopes of a major spring forward is the Pathway our current management has chosen.

 

I honestly hope we do end up with the worst record in the league next year and when the NFL Network, ESPN and Fox are in Nashville in April 2019, they will be announcing Nick Bosa with the 1st pick in the draft followed by whatever needs we have with our remaining 9 picks after we use our $91,000,000 worth of cap space wisely.

 

Step back and spring forward is the approach our other team the Buffalo Sabres have done.  Look at the high end potential of that team with tons of young talent and two potential generational players in Jack Eichel and Rasmus Dahlin and a slew talented kids in the farm system and a ton of future high draft picks.

 

For those who are old enough, remember how the Bills added top talent in the 1984-1988 drafts, then added key pieces when the USFL folded and became an NFL Power for 10 years.  Let's hope the same thing happens again

 

Factually 100% Incorrect 

[reddogblitz]

2 minutes ago, RPbillsfan said:

I'm 60, a huge Bills fan, had season tickets in 1964-1975 until I joined the Navy, now live in San Diego and have since 1982.

 

As am I.  I only have so many more of these seasons left.  I'm getting older by the minute.  I hate to see us piss away 2 or 3 season on a possible maybe.  It's not like were a bottom rung 5 win team spinning our wheels with a bad coach..

Edited September 17, 2018 by reddogblitz

[vorpma]

25 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

 

Its not. Happens all over the league every year. 

 

This was a purge of talent just because they were prior regime players 

And part of a losing culture and attitude!

[MAJBobby]

Just now, vorpma said:

You know the old saying, opinions are like ...... and you have yours!

 

Ok so tell me Who are the 12 players taking 120+M in this post. Seeing we needed 41 players to get to 53. Then come at me and say this post is a good factually supported opinion

[reddogblitz]

Just now, vorpma said:

And part of a losing culture and attitude!

 

What do you call what we are doing this year?  Chopped liver?

[BeginnersMind]

The Bills 2-3 year regime change cycle has worked so well for the last 3 decades. It's no surprise that the fans want to keep up that track record of success.  

[MAJBobby]

Just now, vorpma said:

And part of a losing culture and attitude!

 

Ahhh the losing culture thing. Well this year will bring that right back. Man the undefinable crap this fanbase loves to talk about

[Batman1876]

5 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

 

Got it. So there wasnt only 12 roster spots and 42 spots needed for 50M to get to 53. 

 

There was 46 players and only 5 needed to get to 51 kick the top 51 rule in. 

 

So yes they could have got to 90 with the draft picks and This number thing you are doing without the purge. 

 

Not to mention they spent 32.7M in cap space that year and 8.3M in cap space going to Holmes, Boldin, Tate, Streeter, Brown, Butler.  (wouldnt Wood look good there??) 

 

 

I have no idea what you are trying to say here. You want to keep all the talent we had but you ignore the cost of doing so. 

[MAJBobby]

3 minutes ago, Batman1876 said:

I have no idea what you are trying to say here. You want to keep all the talent we had but you ignore the cost of doing so. 

 

Again you have to lay out how there is only 12 players going into 2017 offseason and 120M on the Books. 

 

Should be fun considering there was 46 on the roster going into that offseason 

[Batman1876]

7 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

 

Again you have to lay out how there is only 12 players going into 2017 offseason and 120M on the Books. 

 

Should be fun considering there was 46 on the roster going into that offseason 

That’s not what I was doing. I simply pointed out the 2018 cost of those 12. 

[dubs]

1 hour ago, CountDorkula said:

 

They created this Cap Mess, just an FYI.

 

The restructured Taylors contract. Then traded Him.

They needed o-line and traded away Glenn

Dareus is the Center of the best defense in football, that just beat the Pats.

They traded for Coelman, and then cut him.

They renegotiated Incognitos contract which caused that spiral.

 

Just because I disagree with you now means I am uneducated. I wonder what insult you will throw at me / the uneducated next.

 

I think you should just skip to "Go become a Pats fan" That's my favorite. 

 

 

Serious question, are Taylor, Glenn, Dareus and Coleman part of the core you want to build a team around?  Because Dareus’s contract was a disaster and they traded Glenn to get more draft capital to eventually get up to take Allen. 

 

Look at the next two years of cap hits (2019, 2020) and tell me who on there do the Bills have big commitments to?  Star is the only one and even his cap hit isn’t that big. 

 

The FO is tearing it down to the studs and rebuilding with a QB, MLB, and CB to start and future flexibility. It may not work, but I get it and I give them credit for actually doing it. I happen to believe it will pay off quicker than what the org had been doing for the past two decades. Just my two cents, obviously I could be totally wrong. 

Edited September 17, 2018 by dubs

[MAJBobby]

10 minutes ago, Batman1876 said:

That’s not what I was doing. I simply pointed out the 2018 cost of those 12. 

Thanks for clarifying, Ahhh so then really doing Nothing, because contracts get adjust all the time and structured in a way where bigger cap hits land on more space years.  You know like GOOD NFL teams do..  And some (like Dareus) could have been moved this year instead of last for lesser impact... But you know that is Chess and here at OBD we play checkers

9 minutes ago, dubs said:

 

Serious question, are Taylor, Glenn, Dareus and Coleman part of the core you want to build a team around?  Because Dareus’s contract was a disaster and they traded Glenn to get more draft capital to eventually get up to take Allen. 

 

Look at the next two years of cap hits (2019, 2020) and tell me who on there do the Bills have big commitments to?  Star is the only one really and even he isn’t that big. 

And you trust this regime to smartly use that money.  I mean the only two they same to be right on are Hyde and Poyer and the Kicker, out of 35M in cap space spent in 2017 and who out of this class?

Edited September 17, 2018 by MAJBobby

[reddogblitz]

1 minute ago, MAJBobby said:

 Thanks for clarifying and structured in a way where bigger cap hits land on more space years.  You know like GOOD NFL teams do. 

 

Yet somehow the Minnesota Vikings, Phoenix Cardinals, Denver Broncos, and Washington were all able to spend $30 mil for a QB.  Did they all have this cap space laying around?  Washington?  Really?

[dubs]

8 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

And you trust this regime to smartly use that money.  I mean the only two they same to be right on are Hyde and Poyer and the Kicker, out of 35M in cap space spent in 2017 and who out of this class?

 

I wouldn’t put my life on it but yes, for the purpose of sports entertainment I trust them at this point. At least willing to see how it plays out. 

Edited September 17, 2018 by dubs

[Rico]

2 hours ago, Fadingpain said:

The fun part is that many of the know it alls who dominate this forum with their wisdom were fairly strong supporters of Whaley during his time as GM here, often citing, for example, his shrewd ability to find replacement talent around the league and patch holes.

 

Now that he is gone and his mistakes are being magnified, the same people dismiss Whaley as a part of the Bills misguided past.

 

 

Brilliant post! Whaley was the chump of all chumps, seven years of FAILURE. He left a huge mess behind, but it’s no coincidence that the drought was broken the season after he was fired.

The people on here who defended him right up to the end and even after have all been appropriately labeled. 

[CountDorkula]

32 minutes ago, vorpma said:

And part of a losing culture and attitude!

How is that culture thing going this year? I mean the Bills Just has a dude quit mid game and are the worst team in the league.

 

but hey if we say “trust the process” enough eventually it comes true. 

[oldmanfan]

10 minutes ago, Batman1876 said:

That’s not what I was doing. I simply pointed out the 2018 cost of those 12. 

Right. It's simple.  You're saying if those guys were not traded/let go and kept on those contracts it would have cost X leaving Y to spend on about 50 other players.

 

 Now , could you have restructured some contracts, etc?  Sure.  But of course Whaley was criticized for that very thing.  And it would assume the players would have been amenable to such.

 

It it is simple.  The current regime simply did not think some of these guys were good enough to merit the big bucks, and said good bye.  I don't necessarily agree with each move but that's the plan.  And looking at the roster now you have some young talent to groom and rely on in critical positions.0

[CountDorkula]

1 minute ago, Rico said:

Brilliant post! Whaley was the chump of all chumps, seven years of FAILURE. He left a huge mess behind, but it’s no coincidence that the drought was broken the season after he was fired.

The people on here who defended him right up to the end and even after have all been appropriately labeled. 

The Bills roster that made the playoffs was mostly constructed by Doug Whaley........

[reddogblitz]

Just now, Rico said:

Brilliant post! Whaley was the chump of all chumps, seven years of FAILURE. He left a huge mess behind, but it’s no coincidence that the drought was broken the season after he was fired.

 

He left a team behind that made the playoffs the following year with players he selected leading the way.

 

The problem was the coaching, not the talent.

 

Had Rex been able to coach D the drought would have ended in 205 or 2016 and he'd still be here.

[PlayoffsPlease]

2 hours ago, Rigotz said:

There are educated fans and uneducated fans.

 

The educated fans understand the financial side of things and the reasonable expectation that you don't build a super bowl winner over night.

 

The uneducated fans want to GIT ER DONE OBD every single season, which leads to a 7-9 record for two decades.

 

Thank god this franchise is finally aligned with educated fans. We all knew this season would be bad. It's only surprising to the Git Er Done crew.

A bit pompous. 

8 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Right. It's simple.  You're saying if those guys were not traded/let go and kept on those contracts it would have cost X leaving Y to spend on about 50 other players.

 

 Now , could you have restructured some contracts, etc?  Sure.  But of course Whaley was criticized for that very thing.  And it would assume the players would have been amenable to such.

 

It it is simple.  The current regime simply did not think some of these guys were good enough to merit the big bucks, and said good bye.  I don't necessarily agree with each move but that's the plan.  And looking at the roster now you have some young talent to groom and rely on in critical positions.0

The Bills have the fifth oldest roster in the NFL.  It doesn't have any more "young players" than the average team.  That part of he apologist narrative does not stand up to scrutiny. 

[Bing Bong]

1 hour ago, joesixpack said:

 

Sigh. I'm losing faith that you can be redeemed.

 

 

Some numbers in the win column will soon redeem us both Joe. And we shall be friends again. Until them, we shall fight incessantly. Beane is a godawful GM.

[oldmanfan]

2 minutes ago, PlayoffsPlease said:

A bit pompous. 

The Bills have the fifth oldest roster in the NFL.  It doesn't have any more "young players" than the average team.  That part of he apologist narrative does not stand up to scrutiny. 

They have some vets to guide younger guys.  Vets like Kyle and Zo and Shady. In the next year or two some if not all of those guys will be gone as they bring in you get talent.  Now they may bring some vets in then too for experience.  But by then guys like Allen and White will be your leaders.

[Nihilarian]

4 minutes ago, Rico said:

Brilliant post! Whaley was the chump of all chumps, seven years of FAILURE. He left a huge mess behind, but it’s no coincidence that the drought was broken the season after he was fired.

The people on here who defended him right up to the end and even after have all been appropriately labeled. 

While I thought Whaley was a bad GM and made many mistakes. This new regime is following right in his footsteps the way they brought in a bunch of bums in free agency and basically ignored the offensive line in the draft. 

 

While I'm not going to criticize the drafting of Edmunds with a #1 pick or Phillips with a #3 pick because the team needed them. I have to look at the offensive line and ask wouldn't those two draft picks be better made on an actual NFL center, an OG or two, or a RT. I mean protecting the most important position on the team (QB) should have been a number one priority. Plus, it would help the run game and the defense by keeping them off the field. 

 

What's surprising is that the defense is so much worse this year!! Right now the 2018 Buffalo Bills are 31st on offense and 31st on defense! 

[reddogblitz]

Just now, Nihilarian said:

While I thought Whaley was a bad GM and made many mistakes. This new regime is following right in his footsteps the way they brought in a bunch of bums in free agency and basically ignored the offensive line in the draft. 

 

While I'm not going to criticize the drafting of Edmunds with a #1 pick or Phillips with a #3 pick because the team needed them. I have to look at the offensive line and ask wouldn't those two draft picks be better made on an actual NFL center, an OG or two, or a RT. I mean protecting the most important position on the team (QB) should have been a number one priority. Plus, it would help the run game and the defense by keeping them off the field. 

 

What's surprising is that the defense is so much worse this year!! Right now the 2018 Buffalo Bills are 31st on offense and 31st on defense! 

 

In the AFC the Bills have scored less points that any other team and give up more points than any other team.  If you count the whole league, one team scored less and one other team has given up the same amount of points as us.

[billsredneck1]

2 hours ago, Bockeye said:

turn on investment:

Star Lotul

 

2 hours ago, Bockeye said:

Negative return on investment:

Star Lotulelei

Trent Murphy

Corey Coleman

Vonte Davis

Kelvin Benjamin

Zay Jones 

Tremaine Edmunds 

others???

sorry i screwed up the first time, but i think trent is going to be a very key player. i tried to pay close attention to him and he gives me the feeling that he's starting to get in the groove and back in the game.  he's gonna make some huge,huge plays this year....and if nate orchard can contribute, we could get badass real quick.