Sadly, McDermott is the wrong guy to develop his own guys

[Wayne Cubed]

 

8 minutes ago, BigBuff423 said:

Peterman was a poor choice, but McD had to be a man of his word and say that whomever earned that right, would get it. Then, Allen struggled in the Bengals game and Peterman - up to that point - was just lights out. Over 80% completion rate, 1 INT that bounced of Ivory's hands, multiple TDs and moving the Offense up and down the field. What happened? Well, I suppose we know definitively without question Nate is just not a Sunday QB, he's a great practice and scrimmage QB. I have a feeling, Allen will be the opposite and when the lights come on, the pressure bears down and the yards and games count, he'll shine. Maybe I'm wrong, but it's time to find out. 

 

I don't see anyone throwing in the towel, just questioning some of the decision making, which I think is certainly a reasonable thing to do.

 

As far as the quoted paragraph, Allen struggled against the Bengals in a game without starting LT Dion Dawkins and a rotation of the interior of the OL. You could argue the struggle was McD's own doing. Add to that Peterman faced one "1st team" defense and had 1 good drive against that defense, which were playing fairly vanilla. The rest of the preseason he was going against guys who aren't in the league anymore. Sure be a man of your word but don't you think he should have tested Peterman a bit more?

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, oldmanfan said:

Absolutely.  But also let's remember they have a multiyear plan to get this done, right? 

 

I am not quitting on the process. I think the strategy is right I think the tactics they used last offseason were questionable. 

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

11 minutes ago, BigBuff423 said:

I find it interesting everyone - AFTER ONE FREAKING WEEK - is ready to throw in the towel on how this team, i.e. McDermott, develops talent and in this thread's specific case, QB. I don't know why it's so hard for fans to understand what has actually happened when you take the intent of Beane and McD with what happened in the Off-season to know this season was essentially a virtual guarantee to be a rough one, and they knew it. Tyrod Taylor is not Josh McCown or some other wily Vet who would have been content to mentor the new QB savior of the Buffalo Bills. He wanted to start and he wanted some room to show he could continue to start as a QB for years to come, that wasn't happening in Buffalo. They had him for one more year on a $16 million deal for ONE year. That means, they would have had to either pay him again or let him go. Some of you people that are complaining about not keeping him, with one year left on a deal, are the same that would be complaining that the Bills didn't at least get a ham sandwich for him. Well, they did much better than that because what they got in return led to Edmunds - who some had going in the top 10, the Bills got at 16.

 

Additionally, Beane and McD planned to strip away all of the poor contracts doled out by Whaley and they knew it was going to be hard for the first two years, in order to Draft their guys, sign the talent they believed fit the team and left the driftwood of the dead Cap money float away. Furthermore, they were also getting rid of guys (although I didn't and still don't like the Darby trade) who they didn't feel met their expectations of team first mentality. 

 

Then you have the retirement of Wood which came unexpectedly, and yes it was early in the Off-season but if you couldn't tell these guys had a plan and they were NOT deviating from that plan. Then, when they thought Richie was still in the fold for one more year, he abruptly "retires" because he didn't like the renegotiated deal. That's two big pieces that were originally unanticipated. Again, they could have responded but what were they to do? They could have tried to throw money at a guy like Nate Solder or Norwell, but they were bound and determined to set themselves free from Cap hell. And guess what....they have. They're sucking it up this year to make the long-term better. 

 

In the interim, they Drafted their future in Allen and Edmunds and still came away with Horrible Harry which may very well be the steal of the Draft and a guy like Teller who might start on the Offensive line next year, not bad for a 5th round pick. But we forget, none of these guys would be here (except maybe Harrison Phillips) if it weren't for the other trades to get them in position to make these moves. 

 

It sucks to watch a poor Offensive line be truly ineffective and the hodge-podge mix of WRs and Clay who has never come close to his contract run routes. But that said, if we were to reverse the two years: last year this total tear-down and looking ugly and this year we slipped into the playoffs, would fans be so impatient? I don't think so....last year was great, and I'm glad that damn monkey got sitting our backs got his throat slit, but I think any reasonable fan knew this was a 2 to 3 year rebuild. They're doing what they can to win now - i.e. bringing in Kerley as a the slot guy, and Star and Trent, in a way that doesn't over extend themselves and we're still JUST ONE GAME into the season. Who knows how this goes. But saying that McD and the team can't develop talent, seems to ignore how much they got out of Tre, Poyer, and Hyde last year or how Milano went from being a late round pick to a strong starter by year's end or how Dawkins was a 2nd round pick that afforded the team the ability to trade Glenn to move up and get Allen. 

 

I'm not saying I've agreed with ever decision or that I know for sure they can develop a QB or even have the mind for Offense that's needed. What I am saying is that it's WAAAAAY too early to make that kind of conclusion, especially when McD and his staff and Beane and his staff have already made the playoffs in their first year (regardless of how, they still had to be in a position to do that at the end of the year when no one, not even us fans, gave them a chance). 

 

Peterman was a poor choice, but McD had to be a man of his word and say that whomever earned that right, would get it. Then, Allen struggled in the Bengals game and Peterman - up to that point - was just lights out. Over 80% completion rate, 1 INT that bounced of Ivory's hands, multiple TDs and moving the Offense up and down the field. What happened? Well, I suppose we know definitively without question Nate is just not a Sunday QB, he's a great practice and scrimmage QB. I have a feeling, Allen will be the opposite and when the lights come on, the pressure bears down and the yards and games count, he'll shine. Maybe I'm wrong, but it's time to find out. 

 

YES. We need more people like you.

 

[Ol Dirty B]

21 minutes ago, BigBuff423 said:

I find it interesting everyone - AFTER ONE FREAKING WEEK - is ready to throw in the towel on how this team, i.e. McDermott, develops talent and in this thread's specific case, QB. I don't know why it's so hard for fans to understand what has actually happened when you take the intent of Beane and McD with what happened in the Off-season to know this season was essentially a virtual guarantee to be a rough one, and they knew it. Tyrod Taylor is not Josh McCown or some other wily Vet who would have been content to mentor the new QB savior of the Buffalo Bills. He wanted to start and he wanted some room to show he could continue to start as a QB for years to come, that wasn't happening in Buffalo. They had him for one more year on a $16 million deal for ONE year. That means, they would have had to either pay him again or let him go. Some of you people that are complaining about not keeping him, with one year left on a deal, are the same that would be complaining that the Bills didn't at least get a ham sandwich for him. Well, they did much better than that because what they got in return led to Edmunds - who some had going in the top 10, the Bills got at 16.

 

Additionally, Beane and McD planned to strip away all of the poor contracts doled out by Whaley and they knew it was going to be hard for the first two years, in order to Draft their guys, sign the talent they believed fit the team and left the driftwood of the dead Cap money float away. Furthermore, they were also getting rid of guys (although I didn't and still don't like the Darby trade) who they didn't feel met their expectations of team first mentality. 

 

Then you have the retirement of Wood which came unexpectedly, and yes it was early in the Off-season but if you couldn't tell these guys had a plan and they were NOT deviating from that plan. Then, when they thought Richie was still in the fold for one more year, he abruptly "retires" because he didn't like the renegotiated deal. That's two big pieces that were originally unanticipated. Again, they could have responded but what were they to do? They could have tried to throw money at a guy like Nate Solder or Norwell, but they were bound and determined to set themselves free from Cap hell. And guess what....they have. They're sucking it up this year to make the long-term better. 

 

In the interim, they Drafted their future in Allen and Edmunds and still came away with Horrible Harry which may very well be the steal of the Draft and a guy like Teller who might start on the Offensive line next year, not bad for a 5th round pick. But we forget, none of these guys would be here (except maybe Harrison Phillips) if it weren't for the other trades to get them in position to make these moves. 

 

It sucks to watch a poor Offensive line be truly ineffective and the hodge-podge mix of WRs and Clay who has never come close to his contract run routes. But that said, if we were to reverse the two years: last year this total tear-down and looking ugly and this year we slipped into the playoffs, would fans be so impatient? I don't think so....last year was great, and I'm glad that damn monkey got sitting our backs got his throat slit, but I think any reasonable fan knew this was a 2 to 3 year rebuild. They're doing what they can to win now - i.e. bringing in Kerley as a the slot guy, and Star and Trent, in a way that doesn't over extend themselves and we're still JUST ONE GAME into the season. Who knows how this goes. But saying that McD and the team can't develop talent, seems to ignore how much they got out of Tre, Poyer, and Hyde last year or how Milano went from being a late round pick to a strong starter by year's end or how Dawkins was a 2nd round pick that afforded the team the ability to trade Glenn to move up and get Allen. 

 

I'm not saying I've agreed with ever decision or that I know for sure they can develop a QB or even have the mind for Offense that's needed. What I am saying is that it's WAAAAAY too early to make that kind of conclusion, especially when McD and his staff and Beane and his staff have already made the playoffs in their first year (regardless of how, they still had to be in a position to do that at the end of the year when no one, not even us fans, gave them a chance). 

 

Peterman was a poor choice, but McD had to be a man of his word and say that whomever earned that right, would get it. Then, Allen struggled in the Bengals game and Peterman - up to that point - was just lights out. Over 80% completion rate, 1 INT that bounced of Ivory's hands, multiple TDs and moving the Offense up and down the field. What happened? Well, I suppose we know definitively without question Nate is just not a Sunday QB, he's a great practice and scrimmage QB. I have a feeling, Allen will be the opposite and when the lights come on, the pressure bears down and the yards and games count, he'll shine. Maybe I'm wrong, but it's time to find out. 

 

My goodness, this is a lot of rambling nonsense and homerism. I'll show where you are wrong in a much more succinct manner without the blinding homer **** that leads to whatever the !@#$ that was.

 

A) Tyrod Taylor is not Josh McCown. He would have never mentored a rookie..... Ugh... He's pretty much doing that in Cleveland, and has been nothing, but a professional. Even when this coaching staff made the horrendous decision last year. He helped Peterman prepare and cleaned up the coaching staff's mess. Also, the coaching staff didn't want Allen to start.

 

B) Edmunds was never going in the top 10. Sorry, and he didn't go. I like him, but this is just utterly irrelevant.

 

C) You talk about them coaching guys up and how Dawkins allowed for them to trade Glenn. I'm not giving them any credit for the offensive line now. You're crazy.

 

D) McD had to be a man of his word.

 

I don't know what this means because he talks in tired cliches, his words are nothing but empty publically. I'm sure he has a lot more to say privately, but he absolutely had responsibility to start Peterman. It's a business and they're professionals. I understand you think they're eating orange slices at half time and everyone has to get a fair chance, they don't. They know what's up and that the 7th overall pick, he's going in at some point. They owed Peterman nothing other than his paycheck. 

 

9 minutes ago, joesixpack said:

 

YES. We need more people like you.

 

 

Long winded and wrong on everything they say... Sorry man but I don't think so.

Edited September 14, 2018 by Ol Dirty B

[oldmanfan]

40 minutes ago, chris heff said:

What would indicate that these guys have a clue? If the plan was to draft QB of the future why trade Taylor? Taylor could have held the place and mentored Allen certainly as well as McCarron. At least sign someone that has started more than five games. Then they doubled down by deciding that going with Peterman and Allen was fine. Then they tripled down by starting Peterman. He is almost as much a rookie as Allen, two NFL starts. Now they are out of options. There are people on this site that would have done better.

16 million dollars.  That's why you trade Taylor.

 

 

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

4 minutes ago, Ol Dirty B said:

Long winded and wrong on everything they say... Sorry man but I don't think so.

Wrong according to who? You?

 

Please.

[GG]

9 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

McCown was a FA. The Jets had to re-sign him. And McCarron wasn't the safe choice. He was the cheap choice. A guy who has 5 pretty uninspiring starts in the league was never the safe choice. Keenum signed a bridge deal in Denver by the way. They had choices. Their decision was to spend as little on a FA vet QB as possible and McCarron was the cheapest choice. Cheapest, not safest. 

 

You can't ignore Bills' looming cap situation in how they approached FA.  That's why they settled for Bodine & Newhouse.

 

Keenum wasn't really a bridge, but a heavy 2-yr commitment.  Bills could not afford $15 million in '18.   McCown signed for $10 million

 

McCarron was the safe choice based on Beane swinging for the fences to move up in the draft.   

 

The real risk is now that they didn't replace McCarron

[oldmanfan]

I have a feeling you'll see someone like Anderson or Moore here soon.  They worked out Lynch so it would seem they're thinking about options.

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, GG said:

 

You can't ignore Bills' looming cap situation in how they approached FA.  That's why they settled for Bodine & Newhouse.

 

Keenum wasn't really a bridge, but a heavy 2-yr commitment.  Bills could not afford $15 million in '18.   McCown signed for $10 million

 

McCarron was the safe choice based on Beane swinging for the fences to move up in the draft.   

 

The real risk is now that they didn't replace McCarron

 

We have been over what bridge contracts for Quarterbacks look like now in the NFL ad infinitum during the Tyrod debates. They look like the contract Case Keenum just signed. $16-19m a year for 2 years with an out after year one that costs  between $6m-10m dollars.  Keenum is right in that range on all counts.  Bradford's was a bridge contract too - 1 year, $20m.

 

The Bills didn't want to pay for that. They could have if they'd wanted to. They spent money elsewhere in free agency, and they have money left too - they didn't want to.  They wanted the cheapest option. I don't see any way that AJ could be classes as "safe" we had 5 games of NFL film on him. Far less than on Bradford, Bridgewater, McCown or Keenum. He wasn't safe. He was just cheap. 

5 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

I have a feeling you'll see someone like Anderson or Moore here soon.  They worked out Lynch so it would seem they're thinking about options.

 

If they sign Paxton Lynch I really will start to think they have no freaking clue what they are looking at when it comes to Quarterbacks. 

[oldmanfan]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

We have been over what bridge contracts for Quarterbacks look like now in the NFL ad infinitum during the Tyrod debates. They look like the contract Case Keenum just signed. $16-19m a year for 2 years with an out after year one that costs  between $6m-10m dollars.  Keenum is right in that range on all counts.  Bradford's was a bridge contract too - 1 year, $20m.

 

The Bills didn't want to pay for that. They could have if they'd wanted to. They spent money elsewhere in free agency, and they have money left too - they didn't want to.  They wanted the cheapest option. I don't see any way that AJ could be classes as "safe" we had 5 games of NFL film on him. Far less than on Bradford, Bridgewater, McCown or Keenum. He wasn't safe. He was just cheap. 

 

If they sign Paxton Lynch I really will start to think they have no freaking clue what they are looking at when it comes to Quarterbacks. 

I would be forced to agree

[SoCal Deek]

All of this isn’t all that complicated really. 2018 was always going to be a throw away season for the Bills. They’re handcuffed by the salary cap and know they’ve got a wasted year to either sit or work with a pretty raw Rookie QB. Sit back and watch the games. It’s going to be painful, for sure, but the franchise has to get across this abyss to get to the other side. 

Go Bills

[BigBuff423]

7 minutes ago, Ol Dirty B said:

 

My goodness, this is a lot of rambling nonsense and homerism. I'll show where you are wrong in a much more succinct manner without the blinding homer **** that leads to whatever the !@#$ that was.

 

A) Tyrod Taylor is not Josh McCown. He would have never mentored a rookie..... Ugh... He's pretty much doing that in Cleveland, and has been nothing, but a professional. Even when this coaching staff made the horrendous decision last year. He helped Peterman prepare and cleaned up the coaching staff's mess. Also, the coaching staff didn't want Allen to start.

 

B) Edmunds was never going in the top 10. Sorry, and he didn't go. I like him, but this is just utterly irrelevant.

 

C) You talk about them coaching guys up and how Dawkins allowed for them to trade Glenn. I'm not giving them any credit for the offensive line now. You're crazy.

 

D) McD had to be a man of his word.

 

I don't know what this means because he talks in tired cliches, his words are nothing but empty publically. I'm sure he has a lot more to say privately, but he absolutely had responsibility to start Peterman. It's a business and they're professionals. I understand you think they're eating orange slices at half time and everyone has to get a fair chance, they don't. They know what's up and that the 7th overall pick, he's going in at some point. They owed Peterman nothing other than his paycheck. 

 

 

Long winded and wrong on everything they say... Sorry man but I don't think so.

 

Wrong, because I disagree with you? No, wrong is when it comes to fact and you don't agree and that's fine, but that's not wrong - it's just not what you agree with. Long-winded? Yeah, you got me there. But instead of posting in 10 different threads that essentially say the same thing, I decided to do it all  at once.

 

Tyrod is playing for a Browns team that as of right now could compete, the Bills were not doing that this year. Tyrod's place on this team would have just been to be a mentor and not to actually play to win this year. He's a good guy, never insinuated any different, but content being a mentor, nope, sorry that was not his intent. If you don't see how McCown are so incredibly different in where they are in their respective careers, there's nothing anyone can say to you to be reasonable.

 

Dawkins played extremely well last year - and other than one game - there's nothing else to go by. If you don't see that, then you ignore virtually every other metric and analyst and that's on you.

 

You don't like McD....again, fine. But don't let that bias sway you from he did what he said he was going to do: give the job to QB who played the best and in the Pre-Season and camp, that was Peterman - by all accounts including his detractors. 

 

Edmunds never going in the top 10....hindsight is easy, but if you go back to early April, and resurrect old Draft predictions and player rankings, find me any more than 3 out of 10 that had him out of the top 10, I'll publicly apologize for being wrong to you in this thread. I've done it before and I'll do it again if you feel the need. 

 

Lastly - if you've even read this far - I'm not really sure hurling insults is helping the situation. I've been cordial and respectful, so why the need to make it personal by saying, "My goodness, this is a lot of rambling nonsense and homerism. I'll show where you are wrong in a much more succinct manner without the blinding homer **** that leads to whatever the !@#$ that was."??                      

If it gets you that upset, then so be it...but I wonder what happened to you this morning that a differing opinion gets you all bent out of shape. Relax.

[GG]

4 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

We have been over what bridge contracts for Quarterbacks look like now in the NFL ad infinitum during the Tyrod debates. They look like the contract Case Keenum just signed. $16-19m a year for 2 years with an out after year one that costs  between $6m-10m dollars.  Keenum is right in that range on all counts.  Bradford's was a bridge contract too - 1 year, $20m.

 

The Bills didn't want to pay for that. They could have if they'd wanted to. They spent money elsewhere in free agency, and they have money left too - they didn't want to.  They wanted the cheapest option. I don't see any way that AJ could be classes as "safe" we had 5 games of NFL film on him. Far less than on Bradford, Bridgewater, McCown or Keenum. He wasn't safe. He was just cheap. 

 

If they sign Paxton Lynch I really will start to think they have no freaking clue what they are looking at when it comes to Quarterbacks. 

I guess we have different interpretations on the flexibility that Beane had in March. 

 

For a team that currently has $7 million in cap space, allocating $20 million to a bridge QB would be more reckless because that would mean cutting the roster much more.

[BigBuff423]

27 minutes ago, joesixpack said:

 

YES. We need more people like you.

 

 

Thanks - but that island is a population of 1.....

[PeterDude]

2 hours ago, todd said:

 

Ridiculous. New offense, roster turnover, one game into the second year of a coaching regime, and you've decided he can't develop a QB? Seriously, that's just insane. 

 

McClappity choosing Peterman twice and it going historically bad, no, it's not ridiculous to think that McDermott doesn't have a clue on QB evaluation, it's insane if you think he does IMO.

 

Allen is being setup for failure by a supremely arrogant coach & FO, just like I feared.  The Bills are still very Billsy.

Edited September 14, 2018 by PeterDude

[Midwest1981]

11 minutes ago, GG said:

 

You can't ignore Bills' looming cap situation in how they approached FA.  That's why they settled for Bodine & Newhouse.

 

Keenum wasn't really a bridge, but a heavy 2-yr commitment.  Bills could not afford $15 million in '18.   McCown signed for $10 million

 

McCarron was the safe choice based on Beane swinging for the fences to move up in the draft.   

 

The real risk is now that they didn't replace McCarron

To those insisting that McCarron was the only choice that fell within Buffalo’s parameters in terms of affordability and only desiring a bridge option please note that Bridgewater actually went for LESS than McCarron: 1 year, $5 million with just a half-million guaranteed.

 

Considering Bridgewater- just 5 months after signing- had a trade market clearly it wasn’t just the Bills that missed that boat. But Bridgewater was in fact a viable affordable option who’s started an entire SEASON (not 2 games or 5 games) in which Minnesota went to the Playoffs.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

Just now, BigBuff423 said:

 

Thanks - but that island is a population of 1.....

 

Don't let these finger-sandwich eating nancies get you down, amigo.

 

[BigBuff423]

1 minute ago, joesixpack said:

 

Don't let these finger-sandwich eating nancies get you down, amigo.

 

 

No worries, thick skin....I was being sarcastic, but attempting brevity....b/c you know, people don't like long-winded sarcasm.

[GG]

1 minute ago, Midwest1981 said:

To those insisting that McCarron was the only choice that fell within Buffalo’s parameters in terms of affordability and only desiring a bridge option please note that Bridgewater actually went for LESS than McCarron: 1 year, $5 million with just a half-million guaranteed.

 

Considering Bridgewater- just 5 months after signing- had a trade market clearly it wasn’t just the Bills that missed that boat. But Bridgewater was in fact a viable affordable option who’s started an entire SEASON (not 2 games or 5 games) in which Minnesota went to the Playoffs.

 

Agreed on how Bridgewater ended up.  But considering there was only 1 team willing to take a very low risk on him indicates there were still concerns about his health in March.  In RETROSPECT he would clearly been the best option.

[SoCal Deek]

1 minute ago, PeterDude said:

 

McClappity choosing Peterman twice and it going historically bad, no, it's not ridiculous to think that McDermott doesn't have a clue on QB evaluation, it's insane if you think he does IMO.

 

Allen is being setup for failure by a supremely arrogant coach & FO, just like I feared.

How exactly is Allen being set up for failure? He’s most likely not going to win many games but he’ll get in game experience and that’ll be good for him in the long run. His ‘failure’ will be tied to the mental side of the game. I think he knows where things are at with the current roster. He’s not clueless! (At least I hope he’s not.)

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

1 minute ago, BigBuff423 said:

 

No worries, thick skin....I was being sarcastic, but attempting brevity....b/c you know, people don't like long-winded sarcasm.

 

 

[Kemp]

Teams with pure trash personnel tend to lose consistently.

[oldmanfan]

8 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

How exactly is Allen being set up for failure? He’s most likely not going to win many games but he’ll get in game experience and that’ll be good for him in the long run. His ‘failure’ will be tied to the mental side of the game. I think he knows where things are at with the current roster. He’s not clueless! (At least I hope he’s not.)

To put it in perspective, the guy you're debating with here is convinced he played Peterman because of religious reasons. 

[hondo in seattle]

6 hours ago, BigDingus said:

So I've waited until the new week to start any threads. Didn't want to come on and say "told you so," as I've been posting about our line, QB group, and glaring issues all off season but was dismissed time & time again as just being negative. 

But there's one thing I've been optimistic about, that I knew in the back of my head was just the homer in me...Our organization's ability to develop a QB. I believed this coaching staff would finally do right, and end our ineptitiude since Jim Kelly. Evidence points to the contrary however, and it's definitely a huge concern.

This staff just last week was confident & had faith in Peterman as the starter. They watched him for a full NFL season, and another off season, and believed this guy was a worthy NFL QB. Half way through game 1, they already pulled him and threw the rookie in who they clearly didn't want to start. Now he's the starter going in to game 2 because it's "what's best for the franchise" (he only made that point clear a million times). But how can we have faith he has any idea what's best for the franchise? Not even 5 days ago Peterman was what he thought was best for the franchise. Last season he thought benching Taylor, then yanking his replacement (again in 1 half) & throwing Taylor back in was what was best! He thought signing McCarron, then trading him & running with 2 inexperienced QB's as our group was what was best for the franchise. 

Yeah, why would we ever need McCarron when we got these 2 studs here locking down the fort? You already exhausted & killed any hope one of your 2 options was ever going to succeed, and with 15 games left you're already down to your last hope....the raw, project, "potential," QB who fights to hit 50% of his passes in high school & college, against Mountain West competition, and hasn't done anything in his football career, and now is asked to suddenly do things he's NEVER been able to do but against the best competition in the world!!?

I like McDermott. I think he's a good coach. I think he's a good leader. But he's shown he's already thrown up too many red flags to say he knows how to develop a QB properly, or even knows how to identify a good QB in the first place. Having a veteran on the team for the rookie to learn from & to lead your young group would've been the most obvious, easy thing to do to at least help learn the ropes & to mentor these guys, but we didn't even do that! 

All this while setting these 2 guys up with what's likely to be the worst offense in the NFL... A line that fans wanted to pretend would somehow just become good with the loss of its best players (great logic), and by having one of the most mediocre WR corps around...these 2 QB's are setup to fail no matter what they do. And with this schedule? Ravens, Chargers, Vikings to start the season? Yeah, don't worry...those defenses will surely be nice warmups for these guys

And yes, a QB getting smashed to oblivion can ruin their career & shot at ever becoming decent. David Carr was shell shocked, and took a record amount of sacks his rookie year. Allen isn't going to fare much better, and it's not his fault. The guy can't help but do what the coaches tell him, and he can't develop in conditions that aren't conducive to his success. He wasn't close to pro ready, and now he's being thrown to the wolves. Way to go McBeane... I didn't expect a winning season. I didn't expect a playoff repeat. But I DID expect you to handle this situation with respect to the position & process, rather than attempting to systematically make every bad decision that has historically ruined QB's careers.

 

 

Let's set the stage:  The Bills have the fewest number of homegrown players in the league.  In other words, we haven't drafted well in the past.  And this year we're in Cap Hell because of bad signings in the past.  In fact, we're spending less on current player salaries than any team in the NFL.   So we have virtually no talent we've drafted ourselves and we can't afford to pay for FAs.  That's what Beane  and McD are up against.  This season they have a team will little talent.   Their plan is to improve the cap situation so they can sign better FAs and draft better than the previous regime.  It's going to take time.  

 

So in this past free agency, we dumped TT to get his salary off our books and get some draft capital.  

 

We also signed AJ - the best vet FA QB would could afford.  We still had Peterman.  And we drafted Allen - a guy who many scouts and former NFL QBs believe has a lot of upside despite your misgivings.

 

Peterman - surprisingly - outplayed the other guys in preseason and won the QB competition.  AJ disappointed in camp, got  hurt, and was traded away for more draft capital.  

 

Coaches tend to publicly say they have faith in their players because players play better when they have the confidence of their coaches.  It's a well known psychological phenomenon called the Pygmalion Effect.  You have no idea what McD privately thought of Peterman.  Given what we saw of Peterman last year, I seriously doubt that McD ever considered Peterman a franchise QB.  I suspect he considered Peterman a placeholder until Allen developed a better ability to read NFL defenses.  

 

But when Peterman faced a real NFL defensive scheme playing at regular season speed, he couldn't approximate his preseason success.  So Allen's getting the starting nod earlier in the season than maybe expected or ideal.   But most Bills fans and observers expected Allen to start at some point this year anyway.  

 

I'm not sure how this series of events lead you to conclude McD doesn't know how to develop QBs?  Dallas threw Aikman to the wolves his first year.  And speaking of Carrs, Oakland threw Derek Carr to the wolves and it didn't ruin him.  Putting a rookie behind a bad line on a bad team doesn't necessarily ruin him.  It depends on the resiliency of the the QB.  I'm not even convinced that David Carr was "ruined" by his rookie year - he just might not have been quite good enough for the NFL.  

 

No one can look at this roster or Week 1's result and be happy.  But nothing leads me to the conclusion that McD doesn't know how to develop a QB.  

Edited September 14, 2018 by hondo in seattle

[The Bills Blog]

12 minutes ago, GG said:

 

Agreed on how Bridgewater ended up.  But considering there was only 1 team willing to take a very low risk on him indicates there were still concerns about his health in March.  In RETROSPECT he would clearly been the best option.

Yes, but here's the thing: is Bridgewater a Christian?

[HappyDays]

1 hour ago, chris heff said:

What would indicate that these guys have a clue? If the plan was to draft QB of the future why trade Taylor? Taylor could have held the place and mentored Allen certainly as well as McCarron.

 

Do you honestly think the mentorship of Tyrod Taylor is worth more than the 65th overall pick? Some of the takes this week have been insane. If Allen is going to be good it makes zero difference which backup QB was here in his first year. I see people in this thread saying we should have signed Sam Bradford for $20 million?? The guy is a knee injury waiting to happen and he was terrible against the Redskins. By waiting until the end of free agency and trading McCarron we saved ourselves millions in cap space rolling into next year, and got a free 5th rounder out of it.

Edited September 14, 2018 by HappyDays

[hondo in seattle]

1 hour ago, chris heff said:

What would indicate that these guys have a clue? If the plan was to draft QB of the future why trade Taylor? Taylor could have held the place and mentored Allen certainly as well as McCarron. At least sign someone that has started more than five games. Then they doubled down by deciding that going with Peterman and Allen was fine. Then they tripled down by starting Peterman. He is almost as much a rookie as Allen, two NFL starts. Now they are out of options. There are people on this site that would have done better.

 

I agree and disagree at the same time.  I was all in favor of keeping TT until we found someone better.

But you can see Beane is obsessive about two things.  He wants cap space and he wants draft capital to build this team his way.   Trading TT gave him both.  And TT was expendable because he's not the QB Beane wants.  

 

I seriously doubt if Beane's an idiot.  He certainly realized the risk that trading TT would temporarily make us worse at the QB position rather than better.  It was a risk he was willing to take to get draft capital and cap space.  

 

Before we judge Beane, let's see what he does going forward with his draft picks and the money for free agency he's freeing up.  

 

 

[JohnC]

2 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

The preseason isn’t a great indicator of a QB’s progress (or lack thereof in Nate’s case).  As you said, teams play conservatively in coverage and then try to wrap up and tackle. They don’t break hard on balls to avoid big collisions. They don’t reveal any exotic looks designed to confuse the QB because they don’t want tape on it before the regular season. They rest guys that have the slightest bumps and replace them with backups. The best players play the least snaps. Nate is fine if you want to play a rythym passing game against a team that isn’t trying to disrupt your rythym.

 

That’s the problem though. When the game matters teams know that if they can disrupt his timing he has no chance. The play that was the best indicator was when the DL dropped into the passing lane and then dropped the INT. I think he got picked again on the next play. The DBs got right up in the receivers faces daring Peterman to make a play beyond them. They cranked up the pressure to throw off his timing and get him uncomfortable in the pocket. EXACTLY what people thought would happen, happened. It will happen again if he is ever thrust back into the lineup. That’s why he can’t play. He is just too easy to defend. The fact that we could see that but McDermott couldn’t is terrifying.

 I disagree with you and Gunner's characterization of the qb situation. The both of you are portraying it as a gross miscalculation in investing in a qb (Peterman) when it was nothing of the sort. From a consequential standpoint It really didn't matter whether McCarron or Peterman won the starting job because both of them were going to have the same role as being placeholders for Allen. The issue was always when was Josh going to be ready? So the team got steamrolled in the first game. The positive that can be taken way from that ugly first game is that it accelerated the time table for Allen. The real critical question is will starting him so quickly hurt or help his development?

 

Both you and Gunner are fixated on Peterman and his failings. They were well known before the game even started. This mediocre qb talent isn't the team's main problem because he is easily replaceable. In fact he is already replaced! 

 

The substance of this team's manifest struggles is its dearth of talent on both sides of the ball but more blatantly obvious on offense. That dearth of talent shouldn't be a surprise because this organization decided to strip some of its best talent and have a mountain of dead cap money this year in order to use it in future years. This was not a serendipitous accident. This was a planned strategy to take an immediate hit for a future benefit. 

 

Instead of wasting your time on the Peterman issue which is already addressed a more meaningful discussion is whether it would have been better to pace out the stripping of talent and cap money and do it in a more measured way instead of doing it so abruptly. I have said since McDermott was hired that the strategy was to go through a major rebuild job. In mind my this is a four year endeavor. That's what we are seeing now. It's an excruciating and bone rattling process. A lot of people don't want to hear it because they got a lot of false positives from last year's success but what is happening now is what should be expected. 

[oldmanfan]

9 minutes ago, JohnC said:

 I disagree with you and Gunner's characterization of the qb situation. The both of you are portraying it as a gross miscalculation in investing in a qb (Peterman) when it was nothing of the sort. From a consequential standpoint It really didn't matter whether McCarron or Peterman won the starting job because both of them were going to have the same role as being placeholders for Allen. The issue was always when was Josh going to be ready? So the team got steamrolled in the first game. The positive that can be taken way from that ugly first game is that it accelerated the time table for Allen. The real critical question is will starting him so quickly hurt or help his development?

 

Both you and Gunner are fixated on Peterman and his failings. They were well known before the game even started. This mediocre qb talent isn't the team's main problem because he is easily replaceable. In fact he is already replaced! 

 

The substance of this team's manifest struggles is its dearth of talent on both sides of the ball but more blatantly obvious on offense. That dearth of talent shouldn't be a surprise because this organization decided to strip some of its best talent and have a mountain of dead cap money this year in order to use it in future years. This was not a serendipitous accident. This was a planned strategy to take an immediate hit for a future benefit. 

 

Instead of wasting your time on the Peterman issue which is already addressed a more meaningful discussion is whether it would have been better to pace out the stripping of talent and cap money and do it in a more measured way instead of doing it so abruptly. I have said since McDermott was hired that the strategy was to go through a major rebuild job. In mind my this is a four year endeavor. That's what we are seeing now. It's an excruciating and bone rattling process. A lot of people don't want to hear it because they got a lot of false positives from last year's success but what is happening now is what should be expected. 

Yeah.  do you rip the band aid off quickly or slowly.  They chose quickly.  Hurts a lot more but for a much shorter time, right? 

[mead107]

7 hours ago, BigDingus said:

So I've waited until the new week to start any threads. Didn't want to come on and say "told you so," as I've been posting about our line, QB group, and glaring issues all off season but was dismissed time & time again as just being negative. 

But there's one thing I've been optimistic about, that I knew in the back of my head was just the homer in me...Our organization's ability to develop a QB. I believed this coaching staff would finally do right, and end our ineptitiude since Jim Kelly. Evidence points to the contrary however, and it's definitely a huge concern.

This staff just last week was confident & had faith in Peterman as the starter. They watched him for a full NFL season, and another off season, and believed this guy was a worthy NFL QB. Half way through game 1, they already pulled him and threw the rookie in who they clearly didn't want to start. Now he's the starter going in to game 2 because it's "what's best for the franchise" (he only made that point clear a million times). But how can we have faith he has any idea what's best for the franchise? Not even 5 days ago Peterman was what he thought was best for the franchise. Last season he thought benching Taylor, then yanking his replacement (again in 1 half) & throwing Taylor back in was what was best! He thought signing McCarron, then trading him & running with 2 inexperienced QB's as our group was what was best for the franchise. 

Yeah, why would we ever need McCarron when we got these 2 studs here locking down the fort? You already exhausted & killed any hope one of your 2 options was ever going to succeed, and with 15 games left you're already down to your last hope....the raw, project, "potential," QB who fights to hit 50% of his passes in high school & college, against Mountain West competition, and hasn't done anything in his football career, and now is asked to suddenly do things he's NEVER been able to do but against the best competition in the world!!?

I like McDermott. I think he's a good coach. I think he's a good leader. But he's shown he's already thrown up too many red flags to say he knows how to develop a QB properly, or even knows how to identify a good QB in the first place. Having a veteran on the team for the rookie to learn from & to lead your young group would've been the most obvious, easy thing to do to at least help learn the ropes & to mentor these guys, but we didn't even do that! 

All this while setting these 2 guys up with what's likely to be the worst offense in the NFL... A line that fans wanted to pretend would somehow just become good with the loss of its best players (great logic), and by having one of the most mediocre WR corps around...these 2 QB's are setup to fail no matter what they do. And with this schedule? Ravens, Chargers, Vikings to start the season? Yeah, don't worry...those defenses will surely be nice warmups for these guys

And yes, a QB getting smashed to oblivion can ruin their career & shot at ever becoming decent. David Carr was shell shocked, and took a record amount of sacks his rookie year. Allen isn't going to fare much better, and it's not his fault. The guy can't help but do what the coaches tell him, and he can't develop in conditions that aren't conducive to his success. He wasn't close to pro ready, and now he's being thrown to the wolves. Way to go McBeane... I didn't expect a winning season. I didn't expect a playoff repeat. But I DID expect you to handle this situation with respect to the position & process, rather than attempting to systematically make every bad decision that has historically ruined QB's careers.

 

1 game into the season ?

[JohnC]

7 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Yeah.  do you rip the band aid off quickly or slowly.  They chose quickly.  Hurts a lot more but for a much shorter time, right? 

In the Raven game our OL was overwhelmed. Does anyone not believe that Cordy Glenn could have been an asset for such a troubled line? Of course it would have been beneficial to keep him this year. However, he was dealt to the Bengals for basically nothing other than shedding his cap weight and better positioning this team to draft its future franchise qb. If he was a factor in getting Josh Allen I'll take that deal any day of the year. Short term pain for long term gain. 

 

If one wants to argue that it would have been better to slow the pace of rebooting the roster there is merit to that position. But my point is that although there is angst with the strategy of the cleansing process there is a logic to it. 

[xsoldier54]

7 hours ago, BigDingus said:

So I've waited until the new week to start any threads. Didn't want to come on and say "told you so," as I've been posting about our line, QB group, and glaring issues all off season but was dismissed time & time again as just being negative. 

But there's one thing I've been optimistic about, that I knew in the back of my head was just the homer in me...Our organization's ability to develop a QB. I believed this coaching staff would finally do right, and end our ineptitiude since Jim Kelly. Evidence points to the contrary however, and it's definitely a huge concern.

This staff just last week was confident & had faith in Peterman as the starter. They watched him for a full NFL season, and another off season, and believed this guy was a worthy NFL QB. Half way through game 1, they already pulled him and threw the rookie in who they clearly didn't want to start. Now he's the starter going in to game 2 because it's "what's best for the franchise" (he only made that point clear a million times). But how can we have faith he has any idea what's best for the franchise? Not even 5 days ago Peterman was what he thought was best for the franchise. Last season he thought benching Taylor, then yanking his replacement (again in 1 half) & throwing Taylor back in was what was best! He thought signing McCarron, then trading him & running with 2 inexperienced QB's as our group was what was best for the franchise. 

Yeah, why would we ever need McCarron when we got these 2 studs here locking down the fort? You already exhausted & killed any hope one of your 2 options was ever going to succeed, and with 15 games left you're already down to your last hope....the raw, project, "potential," QB who fights to hit 50% of his passes in high school & college, against Mountain West competition, and hasn't done anything in his football career, and now is asked to suddenly do things he's NEVER been able to do but against the best competition in the world!!?

I like McDermott. I think he's a good coach. I think he's a good leader. But he's shown he's already thrown up too many red flags to say he knows how to develop a QB properly, or even knows how to identify a good QB in the first place. Having a veteran on the team for the rookie to learn from & to lead your young group would've been the most obvious, easy thing to do to at least help learn the ropes & to mentor these guys, but we didn't even do that! 

All this while setting these 2 guys up with what's likely to be the worst offense in the NFL... A line that fans wanted to pretend would somehow just become good with the loss of its best players (great logic), and by having one of the most mediocre WR corps around...these 2 QB's are setup to fail no matter what they do. And with this schedule? Ravens, Chargers, Vikings to start the season? Yeah, don't worry...those defenses will surely be nice warmups for these guys

And yes, a QB getting smashed to oblivion can ruin their career & shot at ever becoming decent. David Carr was shell shocked, and took a record amount of sacks his rookie year. Allen isn't going to fare much better, and it's not his fault. The guy can't help but do what the coaches tell him, and he can't develop in conditions that aren't conducive to his success. He wasn't close to pro ready, and now he's being thrown to the wolves. Way to go McBeane... I didn't expect a winning season. I didn't expect a playoff repeat. But I DID expect you to handle this situation with respect to the position & process, rather than attempting to systematically make every bad decision that has historically ruined QB's careers.

 

We made the playoffs in his first year.  We've played one game this season.  Peterman was the choice because he played well in the preseason.  They wanted to give Allen a bit more time to develop.  It didn't work out.  Peterman is one of those guys that looks good in exhibition games and in practce, but once it's game on for real, he panics.  None of these things indicates that McDermott or anyone else on the coaching staff is deficient.  It's Peterman who is deficient and I think they know that now.  Allen was always going to be the starter.  It was just a matter of time.  You don't trade up to number 7 to get a guy and then sit him on the bench.  Peterman just couldn't hold down the fort until they were ready to start Allen.  Simple as that.

[colin]

mcd seems loyal to a fault.  that old rb from carolina, KB the slow wr from carolina, the GM from carolina, and Nathaniel "what, me worry" Peterman.

 

oh, and based on some people's opinion that DT from carolina too, altho i think he's actually a space eating monster.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

14 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

The Bills and Whaley drafted OK,

 

The most laughable take in the history of laughable takes

 

[hondo in seattle]

45 minutes ago, JohnC said:

 I disagree with you and Gunner's characterization of the qb situation. The both of you are portraying it as a gross miscalculation in investing in a qb (Peterman) when it was nothing of the sort. From a consequential standpoint It really didn't matter whether McCarron or Peterman won the starting job because both of them were going to have the same role as being placeholders for Allen. The issue was always when was Josh going to be ready? So the team got steamrolled in the first game. The positive that can be taken way from that ugly first game is that it accelerated the time table for Allen. The real critical question is will starting him so quickly hurt or help his development?

 

Both you and Gunner are fixated on Peterman and his failings. They were well known before the game even started. This mediocre qb talent isn't the team's main problem because he is easily replaceable. In fact he is already replaced! 

 

The substance of this team's manifest struggles is its dearth of talent on both sides of the ball but more blatantly obvious on offense. That dearth of talent shouldn't be a surprise because this organization decided to strip some of its best talent and have a mountain of dead cap money this year in order to use it in future years. This was not a serendipitous accident. This was a planned strategy to take an immediate hit for a future benefit. 

 

Instead of wasting your time on the Peterman issue which is already addressed a more meaningful discussion is whether it would have been better to pace out the stripping of talent and cap money and do it in a more measured way instead of doing it so abruptly. I have said since McDermott was hired that the strategy was to go through a major rebuild job. In mind my this is a four year endeavor. That's what we are seeing now. It's an excruciating and bone rattling process. A lot of people don't want to hear it because they got a lot of false positives from last year's success but what is happening now is what should be expected. 

 

John, this is exactly as I see it.  Nicely explained.  

 

I don't think Beane & McD ever considered Peterman an upgrade over TT.  That wasn't the point.   Ditching TT gave us picks and salary cap relief.  Peterman ended up with the role we expected AJ to fill: a low cost snap-receiver until Allen (or a future acquisition) steps up to be the QB we really want.  

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

Just now, ScottLaw said:

Good input as usual Joe.??

 

It is. They traded up for a wr, drafted Dareus in easily the best draft of the past 10 years. They were ludicrously BAD at drafting.

 

[JohnC]

13 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

 

 

Your telling me they had no other way to trade up then trade Cordy Glenn? 

 

I'd rather them trade off all those draft picks they had to trade up then a proven commodity on the OL like Glenn.

With all their maneuvering they got the qb they wanted. That was their priority. I'll take that outcome all day. For a generation this woebegone franchise never had a legitimate franchise qb. They got it done. If you want to get something you have to give up something. You can" what if" yourself until you are exhausted. This organisation accomplished what it most wanted to accomplish. I'm not going to complain. 

1 minute ago, hondo in seattle said:

 

John, this is exactly as I see it.  Nicely explained.  

 

I don't think Beane & McD ever considered Peterman an upgrade over TT.  That wasn't the point.   Ditching TT gave us picks and salary cap relief.  Peterman ended up with the role we expected AJ to fill: a low cost snap-receiver until Allen (or a future acquisition) steps up to be the QB we really want.  

You are astute. 

[Iron Maiden]

Bill's fan thought process.....

 

Off season : This is year 2 of rebuilding...we are getting rid of Whaley's  mistakes and the cap nightmare....it's going to be a rough year....our Oline will not be competitive...get ready for a long season...we will be rewarded for our patience in 2019.....

 

After a week 1 loss....WTF !!!  we suck !!!!....our HC and GM have no clue.....

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

2 minutes ago, Iron Maiden said:

Bill's fan thought process.....

 

Off season : This is year 2 of rebuilding...we are getting rid of Whaley's  mistakes and the cap nightmare....it's going to be a rough year....our Oline will not be competitive...get ready for a long season...we will be rewarded for our patience in 2019.....

 

After a week 1 loss....WTF !!!  we suck !!!!....our HC and GM have no clue.....

 

So much this it ain't funny.

 

[T master]

McD is a second year HC & like Petermen being a second year QB will be prone to make a mistake or 2 & i think like you alluded to he made a big mistake putting all his eggs in a basket that had 2 unproven commodities as NFL QB's & not keeping AJ around to at the very least see how things would pan out in the first couple of weeks !

 

Not for nothin I know the last game of the preseason that AJ played the entire game he proved his leadership if nothing else, sure it was against left over players of sorts but every time according to the after game interviews he would tell the guys in the huddle "we are going to do something historic today" or tell them " we are going to win this" that is what you need to win in this league !

 

No matter what is happening in the game you need a guy that can focus on the next play & forget the prior one bad or good & AJ has done that his entire career & is really good when the chips are stacked against him ! 

 

We will never know what might have been & by all accounts here most think AJ would have done no better but from anything I've seen of the NFL in the past keeping a vet QB to back up a unproven one is something most every team does & i chalk that up as a huge mistake on our second year HC's resume !!