Peter King / PFF on "ball placement" (Josh Allen related)

[Trogdor]

Just now, SouthNYfan said:

 

Once again.

The DB came up basically as the ball was snapped.

When was he supposed to audible or call for a new blocking assignment?

The onus doesn't fall completely on his shoulders.

UNTOUCHED Blitzer TWICE.

Why didn't anybody else pick it up?

What aren't you getting here?

Why would anyone else pick that up when it's his responsibility? That's his assignment. It's not like the DB ran from deep to get there. DBs are going to drop down at the last second in the regular season too, and he needs to be able to read that. I know it's just because he plays for the Bills, but my god. 

[Mikey152]

4 minutes ago, Trogdor said:

I mean what don't you understand about his responsibility? The untouched comment was because the other poster made it seem as though that was someone else's fault. It's not that he was untouched, it was that he had trouble picking it up in the first place. You're really fighting the good fight here huh? 

 

Identifying a blitzer pre-snap isn't always possible.  It's called disguising coverage and happens all the time.

 

Identifying blitzers POST-Snap IS his job...he failed the first time, but not the second.  That is the point.

2 minutes ago, SoCoBills said:

 

Of course he has the ability to set protections. EVERY quarterback and I mean EVERY single one is expected to do this. I’ve heard of a rare situation or 2 where an inexperienced qb had an experienced center make all the line calls from time to time but that’s not the norm. 

 

He calls out the mike maybe...but he probably doesn't have audibles for the RB in a preseason game to pick up safety blitzes.  That's not the kind of thing you just do on the fly.

 

And all of this is assuming that the safety blitz was identifiable pre-snap.  Chances are it was not...especially since there wasn't any game planning.

 

[SoCoBills]

Just now, Trogdor said:

Why would anyone else pick that up when it's his responsibility? That's his assignment. It's not like the DB ran from deep to get there. DBs are going to drop down at the last second in the regular season too, and he needs to be able to read that. I know it's just because he plays for the Bills, but my god. 

 

If the argument is that “it was well timed and thus well disguised so it isn’t Allen’s fault” that’s fine. With experience though a lot of times the best quarterbacks change snap counts and use voice inflections and what not to get the defense to show their hands early. It’s all about command. In order to do that you have to get your guys out of the huddle quickly to have the time to play that type of mental chess. 

[Trogdor]

1 minute ago, Mikey152 said:

 

Identifying a blitzer pre-snap isn't always possible.  It's called disguising coverage and happens all the time.

 

Identifying blitzers POST-Snap IS his job...he failed the first time, but not the second.  That is the point.

He wasn't able to do it and that's fine as I stated before. Way back when though it was made to seem that it was somebody else's fault that the DB came free and that's why the pass was bad. It was his fault that he missed it so it's asinine to blame someone else for it. He did great, but we don't need to be just making **** up on this board for every incomplete pass he has. 

[Fred Clause]

22 minutes ago, SouthNYfan said:

 

Still not sure how it's the QBs fault that on two different plays the DB blitzed UNTOUCHED.

 

 

He does need work.

I'm still falling to see how it's completely 100% his fault that on two separate occasions the DB blitzed completely UNTOUCHED.

It’s not, the receivers also need to read  the blitz and adjust to a hot route, the second play was an adjustment on Allen’s part as he got the ball out quickly and the back should have caught it...

[SoCoBills]

3 minutes ago, Mikey152 said:

 

Identifying a blitzer pre-snap isn't always possible.  It's called disguising coverage and happens all the time.

 

Identifying blitzers POST-Snap IS his job...he failed the first time, but not the second.  That is the point.

 

He calls out the mike maybe...but he probably doesn't have audibles for the RB in a preseason game to pick up safety blitzes.  That's not the kind of thing you just do on the fly.

 

And all of this is assuming that the safety blitz was identifiable pre-snap.  Chances are it was not...especially since there wasn't any game planning.

 

 

I’m crazy pumped about Allen’s play thus far as I feel mostly all of us are so I don’t see why you are trying to absolve Allen of all responsibility to the death. Make all the excuses you want but yea - i’d Like for him to account for the blitz better than he has thus far at times. 

[SouthNYfan]

2 minutes ago, Trogdor said:

Why would anyone else pick that up when it's his responsibility? That's his assignment. It's not like the DB ran from deep to get there. DBs are going to drop down at the last second in the regular season too, and he needs to be able to read that. I know it's just because he plays for the Bills, but my god. 

 

I have no problem criticizing Bills players.

I'm not going to rip a rookie QB with zero playing time under his belt for stuff that he isn't supposed to be doing.

6 minutes ago, SoCoBills said:

 

Of course he has the ability to set protections. EVERY quarterback and I mean EVERY single one is expected to do this. I’ve heard of a rare situation or 2 where an inexperienced qb had an experienced center make all the line calls from time to time but that’s not the norm. 

 

SouthNYFan - the good ones account for that. In the end no matter what it is up to the quarterback to account for protections and make adjustments presnap. Brady isn’t rarely sacked just because he has some sort of super human OL. He gets the ball out fast for one and he’s also rarely fooled by defensive looks and sets his protections properly. 

 

Allen got the ball out fast the second time, exactly what he should have done.

Brady is a longtime vet who has the responsibility.

Allen most likely does not yet.

We can't automatically assume it's his fault that it was missed if he's not supposed to be picking it up yet in the first place.

 

2 minutes ago, Mikey152 said:

 

Identifying a blitzer pre-snap isn't always possible.  It's called disguising coverage and happens all the time.

 

Identifying blitzers POST-Snap IS his job...he failed the first time, but not the second.  That is the point.

 

Yep.

[Trogdor]

1 minute ago, SoCoBills said:

 

If the argument is that “it was well timed and thus well disguised so it isn’t Allen’s fault” that’s fine. With experience though a lot of times the best quarterbacks change snap counts and use voice inflections and what not to get the defense to show their hands early. It’s all about command. In order to do that you have to get your guys out of the huddle quickly to have the time to play that type of mental chess. 

 He used a hard count to try and get a better read and I was impressed by that. The only thing I was saying, when this all started, was that you can't blame someone else for that missed read and the resulting bad pass. It's a good blitz and not the linemen's fault. He will hopefully figure it out eventually. 

[Chandler#81]

2 hours ago, Trogdor said:

He missed it just two times and I said outside of that he was great and yet I'm jumping down his throat? Untwist your panties. In this case on that type of blitz that man is his responsibility. I already stated he is new and that's why I figured he missed it. It's not a big deal on his part. My issue was that there seems to be people placing blame on other players for his screw up instead of just saying he is learning. Maybe reread the whole thread first. 

and our issue is your clueless take. Get it now?

[Trogdor]

Just now, Chandler#81 said:

and our issue is your clueless take. Get it now?

You're completely right, it must be someone else's fault because he is different than every other QB in the league. Please hit me with your insider knowledge on how their scheme calls for him to make no reads or worry about the blitz. I'm sure they didn't even cover it in film study at the next practice. 

[SoCoBills]

3 minutes ago, Chandler#81 said:

and our issue is your clueless take. Get it now?

 

Petty of you to not just agree to disagree and instead go low road by calling another poster clueless. Having a different opinion does not make him clueless. 

 

Allen is exceeding expectations on all levels thus far. Everything and everyone can improve. Nobody is beyond that. Quarterbacks are responsible for mostly everything that goes on with the offense in some way or another. Allen can improve and that fact excites the F out of me. 

Edited August 21, 2018 by SoCoBills

[Bing Bong]

15 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Allen has had a few off target throws............but off target where they weren't going to result in a tipped interception.   Like the pass Allen put on Murphy's right hip in Cleveland.

 

I know he's taken a bit of criticism for the velocity on some short throws but I don't think that's really justified.........the placement has been good making them easily catchable and giving them a chance to make a move after they get the ball as well as avoid a collision.......those who want tenderly delivered short passes that beg to be jumped by the defense need more Peterman.

hehehe, yes receivers love that lofted short ball to catch tenderly like a feather while Ray Lewis is barreling down at you full speed.

 

I'm falling for Josh Allen.. it's too early, but he looks better than any camp quarterback I've seen. What I love most is he seems to be leveraging his experience from being a good player on a bad team, to being a good player on a disastrous NFL offense, OL, WR and all, and taking it on the chin. He's making scrambling plays, moving around a tight pocket, doesn't give a **** about drops: makes the same throw again (leadership unless it's stupidity throwing to a player that causes interceptions more often than not). I like that we picked a quarterback that does not appear dependent on stud WRs, a rock O-Line, and doesn't make excuses for himself. All we need in an offense devoid of talent, loaded on defense.. if he carries this >= Tyrod capability. We gon be good.

[Trogdor]

1 minute ago, PetermanThrew5Picks said:

hehehe, yes receivers love that lofted short ball to catch tenderly like a feather while Ray Lewis is barreling down at you full speed.

 

In rugby we call that a hospital pass. It's going to get someone killed eventually. 

[Bing Bong]

Just now, Trogdor said:

In rugby we call that a hospital pass. It's going to get someone killed eventually. 

we call that a hospital pass in every sport.

 

Except football I guess. Heard it in Soccer and Hockey.

Edited August 21, 2018 by PetermanThrew5Picks

[Chandler#81]

2 minutes ago, SoCoBills said:

 

Petty of you to not just agree to disagree and instead go low road by calling another poster clueless. Having a different opinion does not make him clueless. 

 

Allen is exceeding expectations on all levels thus far. Everything and everyone can improve. Nobody is beyond that. Quarterbacks are responsible for mostly everything that goes on with the offense in some way or another. Allen can improve and that fact excites the F out of me. 

Fair enough, only I didn’t say He was clueless. His adamant, ‘no other possibility exists except his’ is. He, like everyone else here, doesn’t know the playcall from either side. But you wouldn’t know it from his staunch stance that it was all on the QB.

[SinatraSinger]

34 minutes ago, Chandler#81 said:

and our issue is your clueless take. Get it now?

I find this a tad snarky coming from a moderator to a fellow poster.

[Nihilarian]

Are you guys referring to the 2nd and 7 play with 9:46 in the 2nd qtr? 

 

The play was a play action with an RB's in the backfield #45 Marcus Murphy, and TE Jason Croom #80 was in motion to that side. The fake handoff was to Murphy and it was Crooms responsibility to pick up the free Blitzer as #26 of the Browns was not on the LoS but moving up to the line as the play was being called. Allen had his back to the Blitzer and thus #26 was on him before he could do anything.  

 

Perhaps Allen should have noticed #26 moving up to the line and called it out or perhaps he figured that's why the TE is there. Croom could have been the primary target of that pass because Allen was looking for him once he turned. IMHO it was the tight ends job to pick up that Blitzer. 

 

 

[Augie]

5 hours ago, TigerJ said:

The question was raised about Nate Peterman's ball placement.  I couldn't find any numbers, but ran across this comment in a pre draft scouting report from 2017:  "The biggest weakness in Peterman's game is his ball placement. He has a tendency at times to sail deep throws and will throw short on passes in the middle of the field."

 

https://247sports.com/nfl/chicago-bears/Bolt/Chicago-Bears-2017-NFL-Draft-prospect-profile-Pitt-QB-Nathan-Peterman-52407627/

 

It seems Peterman struggles more with the when than the where. He gets it out fast enough, and it goes to generally the right place, but too much time elapses in between. He just does not have Allen’s arm....because very few do. 

[Trogdor]

10 minutes ago, Nihilarian said:

Are you guys referring to the 2nd and 7 play with 9:46 in the 2nd qtr? 

 

The play was a play action with an RB's in the backfield #45 Marcus Murphy, and TE Jason Croom #80 was in motion to that side. The fake handoff was to Murphy and it was Crooms responsibility to pick up the free Blitzer as #26 of the Browns was not on the LoS but moving up to the line as the play was being called. Allen had his back to the Blitzer and thus #26 was on him before he could do anything.  

 

Perhaps Allen should have noticed #26 moving up to the line and called it out or perhaps he figured that's why the TE is there. Croom could have been the primary target of that pass because Allen was looking for him once he turned. IMHO it was the tight ends job to pick up that Blitzer. 

 

 

That would be on the QB to change the route. A TE isn't going to just abandon his route to block unless it's a pre-built option. Probably should at least chip him a little, but I wouldn't say block outright. It's possible that it's some growing pains associated with switching positions. I thought for sure it was designed to the TE because of the turn you mentioned. I'm glad he didn't try to force it to him like a lot would. 

 

Maybe in college the LT called out DBs cheating over like that. Its :28 and 1:06 in the video.

Edited August 21, 2018 by Trogdor

[Laughing Coffin]

Darnold has kept almost every throw within 5 yards of the line of scrimmage

[Mr. WEO]

My tailor, as well as most who care to notice, know that I dress to the right...

[Nihilarian]

1 hour ago, Trogdor said:

That would be on the QB to change the route. A TE isn't going to just abandon his route to block unless it's a pre-built option. Probably should at least chip him a little, but I wouldn't say block outright. It's possible that it's some growing pains associated with switching positions. I thought for sure it was designed to the TE because of the turn you mentioned. I'm glad he didn't try to force it to him like a lot would. 

 

Maybe in college the LT called out DBs cheating over like that. Its :28 and 1:06 in the video.

This wasn't a presnap read in which the QB would then perhaps change the play.

 

All this was happening so fast that #26 was moving up while the QB was in the process of calling the play. This was on the tackle to alert the other players that a blitzer was coming with whatever predetermined signal they use like yelling, fire, fire, fire. (Yes, they still use that in the pros afaik.) This was also on the 2nd year tight end too as he should have noticed that a blitzer was coming and instead he focused on his route.        

 

As for the QB attempting to force a throw, it looked to me that as soon as Allen turned to throw it the blitzer was already on him and he had no time to do anything but take the sack.    

I'm not blaming Josh Allen for that sack as his linemen and TE should have helped him.    Kudos to him when it happened again he sidestepped the blitzer, stepped up in the pocket and hit his WR for a TD. 

 

 

[Buffalo716]

2 hours ago, PetermanThrew5Picks said:

we call that a hospital pass in every sport.

 

Except football I guess. Heard it in Soccer and Hockey.

I always called it a buddy pass in hockey 

[Trogdor]

34 minutes ago, Nihilarian said:

This wasn't a presnap read in which the QB would then perhaps change the play.

 

All this was happening so fast that #26 was moving up while the QB was in the process of calling the play. This was on the tackle to alert the other players that a blitzer was coming with whatever predetermined signal they use like yelling, fire, fire, fire. (Yes, they still use that in the pros afaik.) This was also on the 2nd year tight end too as he should have noticed that a blitzer was coming and instead he focused on his route.        

 

As for the QB attempting to force a throw, it looked to me that as soon as Allen turned to throw it the blitzer was already on him and he had no time to do anything but take the sack.    

I'm not blaming Josh Allen for that sack as his linemen and TE should have helped him.    Kudos to him when it happened again he sidestepped the blitzer, stepped up in the pocket and hit his WR for a TD. 

 

 

I was saying that I'm glad he didn't force it. Learning to take the sack is sometimes necessary. 26 was already up close both times and then they just lose track of him. 

[BB@Shooter]

11 hours ago, Trogdor said:

That means he blew the read twice. They pointed out during the game that it's the QBs responsibility to see that defender and account for him. Growing pains. I hope we don't make too many excuses though, because it's still his fault. 

According to Bernie. I will pass on that info. The running back didn't pick it up. Watch it again.

1 hour ago, Nihilarian said:

This wasn't a presnap read in which the QB would then perhaps change the play.

 

All this was happening so fast that #26 was moving up while the QB was in the process of calling the play. This was on the tackle to alert the other players that a blitzer was coming with whatever predetermined signal they use like yelling, fire, fire, fire. (Yes, they still use that in the pros afaik.) This was also on the 2nd year tight end too as he should have noticed that a blitzer was coming and instead he focused on his route.        

 

As for the QB attempting to force a throw, it looked to me that as soon as Allen turned to throw it the blitzer was already on him and he had no time to do anything but take the sack.    

I'm not blaming Josh Allen for that sack as his linemen and TE should have helped him.    Kudos to him when it happened again he sidestepped the blitzer, stepped up in the pocket and hit his WR for a TD. 

 

 

Watch it again, hirunning back picked the wrong guy to block.

[NoSaint]

That 3 would make up last years top 5 should be a pretty big red flag for the stat having some unaccounted factor. Unless you really love these rookies.

[Augie]

4 hours ago, PetermanThrew5Picks said:

we call that a hospital pass in every sport.

 

Except football I guess. Heard it in Soccer and Hockey.

 

Could we just re-name it “The EJ”? 

[Green Lightning]

5 hours ago, SinatraSinger said:

I find this a tad snarky coming from a moderator to a fellow poster.

+1

[SoTier]

On 8/21/2018 at 1:05 AM, Dadonkadonk said:

Darnold will start to get exposed.  He was not good under pressure at USC.  I thought he had a low ceiling coming out of college.  A poor mans Mathew Stafford.  But so far by all accounts he has done everything expected of him and maybe getting passed over by Cleveland saved his career.

 

Darnold looks to be a rich man's Trent Edwards, Captain Checkdown Part Deux.

[SoTier]

16 hours ago, SoCoBills said:

 

Petty of you to not just agree to disagree and instead go low road by calling another poster clueless. Having a different opinion does not make him clueless. 

 

 

How is treating every opinion as if it were equally reasonable/plausible/correct etc or pretending that every poster offering one knows what he/she is talking about any different from giving out trophies for "participation" in T-ball or kiddie soccer? 

 

[Doc]

Allen was 9 of 12 (I’m not counting the spike to stop the clock) against the Browns.  That 75%.

[dickleyjones]

17 hours ago, Chandler#81 said:

Fair enough, only I didn’t say He was clueless. His adamant, ‘no other possibility exists except his’ is. He, like everyone else here, doesn’t know the playcall from either side. But you wouldn’t know it from his staunch stance that it was all on the QB.

 

can a take have knowledge? 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

On 8/20/2018 at 11:22 PM, Buffalo86 said:

From Peter King's column this morning (apologies if it's already been posted):

 

"I asked Pro Football Focus, which gives me a smart chunk of this column each week, to judge the first-round rookie quarterbacks by a metric you might not know: ball location on throws by the quarterback.

 

The theory: Completion percentage is a good number, but it doesn’t take into account when a quarterback has two receivers with great hands, or whether his three key guys have, say, 30 drops in a season. Adjusted completion percentage is better because it accounts for drops. But ball-location (hitting the receiver in stride with an easily catchable ball) is interesting because in today’s NFL, so many throws are short passes, and how many yards a receiver makes after the catch often depends on the throw. Did the quarterback lead him properly? For the last two years, PFF has charted the ball location of every NFL throw, and also the throws of the current rookie QB crop, made.

 

The top three passers last year in ball-location:

1. Drew Brees 70.4 percent,
2. Tom Brady 65.8 percent,
3. Jimmy Garoppolo 61.9 percent.

 

Baker Mayfield led the draft prospects in 2017 with a ball-location accuracy of 64.9 percent. Through the fist half of the preseason, the best man of the five first-rounders in ball location is Sam Darnold of the Jets. The numbers:

1. Sam Darnold, Jets, 84.6 percent.
2. Josh Allen, Bills, 70.0 percent.
3. Baker Mayfield, Browns, 69.0 percent.
4. Josh Rosen, Cards, 58.3 percent.
5. Lamar Jackson, 36.0 percent.

 

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2018/08/20/jon-gruden-raiders-training-camp-fmia-peter-king/

 

It's early & a very small sampe size, but encouraging nonetheless.

 

“can’t fix accuracy”?