Shaq Lawson on roster bubble

[26CornerBlitz]

1 minute ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Maybe you thought that.  Whaley didn't. He knew that (as was being reported at the time) 6 or more teams would pass on Lawson due to his well known shoulder injury which would require surgery not after an NFL season.

 

Then Whaley created this laughable set up:

 

"If something happens, it's going to happen. It's nothing that we're really worried about or we wouldn't take him. We have complete faith in our medical staff and they signed off on him, so we're excited to have him."

 

Then...oooops!--during a "conditioning program" immediately after the draft, "something happened"!  What happened during a routine day in the gym, you ask?...

 

....an "occurrence of the condition"  (gotta love that line).  And presto, oh my God, Shaq will not be able to play through the season after all.  Shocking!!  It's like all those teams that passed on him because of his well known surgically treatable shoulder injury somehow KNEW he would have surgery right after the draft----and therefore chose not to draft huim...

 

Crazy coincidence you would say, right?

 

First of all. It was an on-field move where the aggravation of the injury occurred. So you're wrong on that fact from the outset.  Again I state it was an injury that he played with for an entire season at Clemson and the expectation was that he could do the same in Buffalo. 

[Mango]

2 hours ago, NewEraBills said:

 

They paid Murphy too much money.  My thing with Murph and Shaq is that I don't really see Murph as more talented and I don't think he will generate more than 9 sacks if he gives us that.  If they like Odigi then Shaq is going to be trade bait for a WR or OL most likely.  I'm not a fan of it but it's just what it is.

 

Move criticized this regime for a number of moves, but this is a bad take on them. If anything, they give zero eff’s about salary or draft choice when it comes to putting 22 guys on the field. 

 

They are totally ok with going against what they thought or wanted to happen....except Tolbert. Still don’t get that one. 

[Mr. WEO]

47 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

First of all. It was an on-field move where the aggravation of the injury occurred. So you're wrong on that fact from the outset.  Again I state it was an injury that he played with for an entire season at Clemson and the expectation was that he could do the same in Buffalo. 

 

 

Big deal--outdoor calisthenics.   Was he walking on his hands? 

 

Your argument makes no sense--he was able to gut it out a full season in college with a well known injury, yet some "move" in an "on field" conditioning drill rendered him injured to the point that he needed to have surgery now?

 

Come on!  Doug even set it up for you---"if that something happens...".  And then it happens in that scenario?  Just crazy bad luck, right??

 

The obvious difference as to why he would defer surgery (for a torn labrum, which some experts expected would be the case after his original shoulder dislocation) while in college is that he did not want to harm his draft stock...and no one was investing millions in him playing football for them at that point.  Coach says you gotta play, son.  Shaq says yes I do.

 

Look, Doug saw an Shaq as a bargain who would clearly slide in the draft because other GMs wouldn't take a guy in the first round who would start his career as a postop patient.   So he drafts him saying everything is fine "unless something, you know HAPPENS". 

 

He took a shot, it didn't work out and he muffed the fib he made up badly.  No he's a "scout" for the NFLPA, whatever that means.  Like water, he's found his level...

 

[26CornerBlitz]

1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

Big deal--outdoor calisthenics.   Was he walking on his hands? 

 

Your argument makes no sense--he was able to gut it out a full season in college with a well known injury, yet some "move" in an "on field" conditioning drill rendered him injured to the point that he needed to have surgery now?

 

Come on!  Doug even set it up for you---"if that something happens...".  And then it happens in that scenario?  Just crazy bad luck, right??

 

The obvious difference as to why he would defer surgery (for a torn labrum, which some experts expected would be the case after his original shoulder dislocation) while in college is that he did not want to harm his draft stock...and no one was investing millions in him playing football for them at that point.  Coach says you gotta play, son.  Shaq says yes I do.

 

Look, Doug saw an Shaq as a bargain who would clearly slide in the draft because other GMs wouldn't take a guy in the first round who would start his career as a postop patient.   So he drafts him saying everything is fine "unless something, you know HAPPENS". 

 

He took a shot, it didn't work out and he muffed the fib he made up badly.  No he's a "scout" for the NFLPA, whatever that means.  Like water, he's found his level...

 

 

Your agenda and narrative don't fly as his injury wasn't the type that is career hampering.  Meanwhile you make up your own truth. 

Edited June 21, 2018 by 26CornerBlitz

[Mr. WEO]

11 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

Your agenda and narrative don't fly as his injury wasn't the type that is career hampering.  Meanwhie you make up your own truth. 

 

We aren't discussing whether it was career hampering.  we are discussing the fact that teams passed on him because they knew that, before he played in the NFL, with millions at stake, he would have to have his surgery to decrease the money at risk.  Teams other than Whaley's Buffalo Bills.   He wanted Shaq, knowing what every other GM knew and passed.

 

We are talking about his sad attempt to obfuscate all of this with some mysterious "occurrence" that forced the surgery that other teams knew would be immediately necessary to make their investment worthwhile.

 

It's really not that hard to follow.  But if you want to believe that this "occurrence", which even Doug prepared you for beforehand, was totally unforeseen and significant enough that it (and not a season of Clemson) forced Shaq to have surgery before the season rather than after.....well I commend you for your true believer status. 

 

After Pegula, in week 7, said it would make no sense to fire Rex during the season, it came as a shock to you that he fired Ryan before the season ended.

 

And Pegula said "The famous ultimatum that I supposedly gave them, I wasn’t even in town that day. I was up at my lake in the Adirondacks.”..you probably said "That's right!!.  You can't issue ultimatums while you're way up in the Adirondacks--at your own lake!!  So it never happened!"

[elroy16]

 

 

He breaks it down a little bit more if you click on the tweet.

 

I don't think anyone expects him to become Clowney considering Clowney is bigger and more athletic. A lot of players take time to make an impact though. With Shaq's newfound motivation, hopefully he puts it together. 

 

[26CornerBlitz]

28 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

We aren't discussing whether it was career hampering.  we are discussing the fact that teams passed on him because they knew that, before he played in the NFL, with millions at stake, he would have to have his surgery to decrease the money at risk.  Teams other than Whaley's Buffalo Bills.   He wanted Shaq, knowing what every other GM knew and passed.

 

We are talking about his sad attempt to obfuscate all of this with some mysterious "occurrence" that forced the surgery that other teams knew would be immediately necessary to make their investment worthwhile.

 

It's really not that hard to follow.  But if you want to believe that this "occurrence", which even Doug prepared you for beforehand, was totally unforeseen and significant enough that it (and not a season of Clemson) forced Shaq to have surgery before the season rather than after.....well I commend you for your true believer status. 

 

After Pegula, in week 7, said it would make no sense to fire Rex during the season, it came as a shock to you that he fired Ryan before the season ended.

 

And Pegula said "The famous ultimatum that I supposedly gave them, I wasn’t even in town that day. I was up at my lake in the Adirondacks.”..you probably said "That's right!!.  You can't issue ultimatums while you're way up in the Adirondacks--at your own lake!!  So it never happened!"

 

That's exactly what we're discussing as he was rated as a 1st round talent even with the injury that again was not career threatening.  You're acting as if all NFL teams medical staffs agree on the injury diagnoses. The Bills thought he could get through the season without the surgery, but regardless you promote a postulating agenda of a lie as if you have concrete evidence which of course you do not. 

[njbuff]

Let me get this straight............

 

Shaq’s roster spot is in jeopardy because of a Redskins reject and a Giants reject?

 

I get that McBeane hates most things that are Rex related, but not all players that played under Rex are bad.

 

At worst, when healthy, Shaq sets a very good edge as a run defender.

 

They are just lighting a fire under his ass for him to being able to stay on the field and being a medical case as he has been his first two years.

 

Shaq can be part a very good DL rotation and that works in today’s NFL.

[ColoradoBills]

4 hours ago, NewEraBills said:

 

They paid Murphy too much money.  My thing with Murph and Shaq is that I don't really see Murph as more talented and I don't think he will generate more than 9 sacks if he gives us that.  If they like Odigi then Shaq is going to be trade bait for a WR or OL most likely.  I'm not a fan of it but it's just what it is.

 

IF Shaq is traded I would like a swing tackle for the OL.  Bills need a LT backup and someone to push for Mills job.

[thebandit27]

28 minutes ago, njbuff said:

Let me get this straight............

 

Shaq’s roster spot is in jeopardy because of a Redskins reject and a Giants reject?

 

I get that McBeane hates most things that are Rex related, but not all players that played under Rex are bad.

 

At worst, when healthy, Shaq sets a very good edge as a run defender.

 

They are just lighting a fire under his ass for him to being able to stay on the field and being a medical case as he has been his first two years.

 

Shaq can be part a very good DL rotation and that works in today’s NFL.

 

I would respectfully submit that you don't quite have it straight.

 

Shaq's roster spot is in jeopardy because he hasn't been very productive and he's had availability issues coupled with being admittedly out of shape.

 

Also, just because a guy his the UFA market (like Trent Murphy) that doesn't mean he's a "reject".

 

As for lighting a fire, people (including yours truly) said the same thing last offseason when the team didn't pick up Sammy's option, and we know how that ended.

12 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

IF Shaq is traded I would like a swing tackle for the OL.  Bills need a LT backup and someone to push for Mills job.

 

Maybe Bulaga if he proves to be healthy during TC?

Edited June 21, 2018 by thebandit27

[Mr. WEO]

26 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

That's exactly what we're discussing as he was rated as a 1st round talent even with the injury that again was not career threatening.  You're acting as if all NFL teams medical staffs agree on the injury diagnoses. The Bills thought he could get through the season without the surgery, but regardless you promote a postulating agenda of a lie as if you have concrete evidence which of course you do not. 

 

At least 6 teams passed on him because they didn't want to pay a 1st round pick for a guy who would miss a lot of his rookie season for an operation everyone knew he needed.

 

Whaley knew this too and knew it's why Shaq would be available at that pick.  Obviously if the teams that would have drafted him ahead of the Bills really believed he could play a rookie season without the surgery, they would have picked him and waited until the off season to operate.  Pretty simple.

 

Whaley TOLD you it would be fine---unless "at some point" it wasn't.  And suddenly, it wasn't---nice and early, a week before OTAs and barely over 2 weeks after the draft, the Bills announce Shaq is going to need that surgery everyone else said he would need after all.  Because of the "occurrence", though....

[26CornerBlitz]

Just now, Mr. WEO said:

 

At least 6 teams passed on him because they didn't want to pay a 1st round pick for a guy who would miss a lot of his rookie season for an operation everyone knew he needed.

 

Whaley knew this too and knew it's why Shaq would be available at that pick.  Obviously if the teams that would have drafted him ahead of the Bills really believed he could play a rookie season without the surgery, they would have picked him and waited until the off season to operate.  Pretty simple.

 

Whaley TOLD you it would be fine---unless "at some point" it wasn't.  And suddenly, it wasn't---nice and early, a week before OTAs and barely over 2 weeks after the draft, the Bills announce Shaq is going to need that surgery everyone else said he would need after all.  Because of the "occurrence", though....

 

As I already stated. You're acting as if all NFL teams medical staffs agree on the injury diagnoses.  Nevertheless, your postulate that Whaley and the Bills lied about anything is complete conjecture to fit your agenda. 

[Mr. WEO]

Just now, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

As I already stated. You're acting as if all NFL teams medical staffs agree on the injury diagnoses.  Nevertheless, your postulate that Whaley and the Bills lied about anything is complete conjecture to fit your agenda. 

 

 

No, all 32 NFL teams were not also looking to draft Shaq or his position in the 1st round.  So your question doesn't add to this discussion.  It seems several that WERE, passed based on the medical evaluation, i.e. the kid needed surgery before he played in the NFL and risked worsening the injury and wasting their money.

 

Do you have any "concrete evidence" that what you are saying is true?

[26CornerBlitz]

1 minute ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

No, all 32 NFL teams were not also looking to draft Shaq or his position in the 1st round.  So your question doesn't add to this discussion.  It seems several that WERE, passed based on the medical evaluation, i.e. the kid needed surgery before he played in the NFL and risked worsening the injury and wasting their money.

 

Do you have any "concrete evidence" that what you are saying is true?

 

I don't need to prove he wasn't telling any lie. You need to prove he was and you simply cannot no matter how many times you postulate. 

[Kelly the Dog]

3 hours ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

It isn't.  The thought was that he could play through the injury just as he did at Clemson with a surgery after the 2016 season. You are simply incorrect. 

You are right. WEO is wrong on this one. Of course they knew about the injury, but the team and Shaq both planned on him playing right away. Shaq even said he had played with the injury the entire season already. Then something happened to it (which, granted, wasn't completely unexpected because of the injury) and then they decided to shut him down.

[Mr. WEO]

2 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

I don't need to prove he wasn't telling any lie. You need to prove he was and you simply cannot no matter how many times you postulate. 

 

 

You can't prove anything to a true believer.

 

Even so, many things are never truly known or proven,  but can be concluded by deduction based on what is known.  Based on what was known before the draft, what happened in the draft, the carefully chosen words about the possible need for surgery after the draft....and the multiple explanations regarding the circumstances surrounding the decision to have the surgery.....my conclusion seems far more likely than your "hey, things changed" scenario.

[26CornerBlitz]

Just now, Mr. WEO said:

You can't prove anything to a true believer.

 

Even so, many things are never truly known or proven,  but can be concluded by deduction based on what is known.  Based on what was known before the draft, what happened in the draft, the carefully chosen words about the possible need for surgery after the draft....and the multiple explanations regarding the circumstances surrounding the decision to have the surgery.....my conclusion seems far more likely than your "hey, things changed" scenario.

 

True believer.  You are one funny dude.  You offer nothing bu conjecture as you continue to postulate. 

[Mr. WEO]

3 minutes ago, Kelly the Dog said:

You are right. WEO is wrong on this one. Of course they knew about the injury, but the team and Shaq both planned on him playing right away. Shaq even said he had played with the injury the entire season already. Then something happened to it (which, granted, wasn't completely unexpected because of the injury) and then they decided to shut him down.

 

 

Something that had not happened during a full season of football, but did happen during some pre-OTA exercises?

Just now, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

True believer.  You are one funny dude.  You offer nothing bu conjecture as you continue to postulate. 

 

 

Conjecture....like saying Whaley "never got to pick his HC"?

[26CornerBlitz]

7 minutes ago, Kelly the Dog said:

You are right. WEO is wrong on this one. Of course they knew about the injury, but the team and Shaq both planned on him playing right away. Shaq even said he had played with the injury the entire season already. Then something happened to it (which, granted, wasn't completely unexpected because of the injury) and then they decided to shut him down.

 

Yep. It's not some grand conspiracy. He would up missing six games.   Sound the alarm!

[BillsVet]

14 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

I don't need to prove he wasn't telling any lie. You need to prove he was and you simply cannot no matter how many times you postulate. 

 

The old prove a negative argument.  A sign of desperation. 

 

Keep on keeping on.  Or posting relentlessly. 

[dave mcbride]

7 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

Yep. It's not some grand conspiracy. He would up missing six games.   Sound the alarm!

He missed six games plus all of preseason and camp. The result was that he was bad in his first season (no sugar-coating that), and the Bills lost 20-25 percent of their investment (depending on whether they pick up his fifth year option, which I think is highly unlikely at this point) right off the top.  I think they knew he was hurt, but assumed it wouldn't be a problem. They were laughably wrong given how quickly they announced that he was gonna have to have surgery. A bum shoulder is not a good problem for a DE either.  I do agree that with you that they didn't lie; they just completely effed up in their judgment. 

Edited June 21, 2018 by dave mcbride

[ColoradoBills]

31 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

 

Maybe Bulaga if he proves to be healthy during TC?

 

Buluga very well could be a cap casualty.  I just don't know if Shaq fits their D.

Interesting.

[Mr. WEO]

3 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

He missed six games plus all of preseason and camp. The result was that he was bad in his first season (no sugar-coating that), and the Bills lost 20-25 percent of their investment (depending on whether they pick up his fifth year option, which I think is highly unlikely at this point) right off the top.  I think they knew he was hurt, but assumed it wouldn't be a problem. They were laughably wrong given how quickly they announced that he was gonna have to have surgery. A bum shoulder is not a good problem for a DE either.  I do agree that with you that they didn't lie; they just completely effed up in their judgment. 

 

 

Given that other teams were known to be passing on him for this very reason, I just don't see why Whaley would believe this kid did not need surgery sooner rather than later.

 

 

Look, if he was re-injured during a football play or contact drill or something like in training camp or preseason, other than in some pre-OTA thing, I would say, yeah...they figured he would be OK, but he failed a legit test of the shoulder and now he needs that operation.

 

That's obviously not the sequence.

[Kelly the Dog]

38 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

Something that had not happened during a full season of football, but did happen during some pre-OTA exercises?

 

 

 

Ummm....if they always knew about and had planned for the surgery, he wouldn't be out running hard in OTAs. 

[26CornerBlitz]

6 minutes ago, Kelly the Dog said:

Ummm....if they always knew about and had planned for the surgery, he wouldn't be out running hard in OTAs. 

 

They needed to pretend he was going to play before the surgery could be performed. 

Edited June 21, 2018 by 26CornerBlitz

[Kelly the Dog]

30 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

He missed six games plus all of preseason and camp. The result was that he was bad in his first season (no sugar-coating that), and the Bills lost 20-25 percent of their investment (depending on whether they pick up his fifth year option, which I think is highly unlikely at this point) right off the top.  I think they knew he was hurt, but assumed it wouldn't be a problem. They were laughably wrong given how quickly they announced that he was gonna have to have surgery. A bum shoulder is not a good problem for a DE either.  I do agree that with you that they didn't lie; they just completely effed up in their judgment. 

Yep. They obviously knew about the injury. They talked about it and he did, too. They effed up the judgment as you said. I assume there was a decent chance that he could have played through the entire season, like he did his senior season at Clemson with the injury. But in retrospect, it was a mistake because he messed it up beforehand.

1 minute ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

They needed to pretend he was going to play before the surgery could be preformed. 

Yep. I remember hearing that a few players wondered to each other why he was playing with his arm in a sling, but when he said it was nothing, they just ignored it.

[eball]

4 minutes ago, Kelly the Dog said:

 

Yep. I remember hearing that a few players wondered to each other why he was playing with his arm in a sling, but when he said it was nothing, they just ignored it.

 

He was calling it his "lame duck" pass rush move.

[Kelly the Dog]

9 minutes ago, eball said:

 

He was calling it his "lame duck" pass rush move.

Yep. Rex was telling him to lower his right shoulder when he tried to get under the RT and he would say, "What shoulder?"

[Mr. WEO]

1 hour ago, Kelly the Dog said:

Ummm....if they always knew about and had planned for the surgery, he wouldn't be out running hard in OTAs. 

 

 

It wasn't OTAs. 

[Kelly the Dog]

2 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

It wasn't OTAs. 

Minicamp is the same thing and you know it. Pretty weak defense, my friend.

[3rdand12]

4 hours ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

Yep. It's not some grand conspiracy. He would up missing six games.   Sound the alarm!

But he was going to start right off the bus. I recall that comment
 

IMO they expected him to start and play the season.
IMO that was silly considering what was seemingly known by other head Coaches.
Not a fan of Adolphus Washington either. Both heavy Rex influenced picks IMO.

What about Ragland ?

I am sure Whaley was doing his Coaches bidding went it came to draft weekend.
 

 We can only hope both Adolphus and more so Lawson, Shaq , show up big in training camp.

[26CornerBlitz]

Just now, 3rdand12 said:

But he was going to start right off the bus. I recall that comment
 

IMO they expected him to start and play the season.
IMO that was silly considering what was seemingly known by other head Coaches.
Not a fan of Adolphus Washington either. Both heavy Rex influenced picks IMO.

What about Ragland ?

I am sure Whaley was doing his Coaches bidding went it came to draft weekend.
 

 We can only hope both Adolphus and more so Lawson, Shaq , show up big in training camp.

 

That was indeed the plan until injury to both Shaq and Ragland derailed it.  Ancient history at this point. On to 2018. 

[3rdand12]

12 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

That was indeed the plan until injury to both Shaq and Ragland derailed it.  Ancient history at this point. On to 2018. 

agreed  26.
 like i have mentioned more than once.

 Tis the season of hope, if ya cant hope for a "successful " season right now ? I feel for folks who are already frustrated

 and thats not kool aid talkin. although i do keep a stash at the ready !
 

[Mr. WEO]

32 minutes ago, Kelly the Dog said:

Minicamp is the same thing and you know it. Pretty weak defense, my friend.

 

 

It wasn't minicamp either.

 

Keep swinging....

[Kelly the Dog]

1 minute ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

It wasn't minicamp either.

 

Keep swinging....

Yes, it was, it's called "Rookie Minicamp." Minicamp right in the title.

[Mr. WEO]

Just now, Kelly the Dog said:

Yes, it was, it's called "Rookie Minicamp." Minicamp right in the title.

 

It bears no resemblance to OTAs.

 

Look, 6 days after announcing Shaq was "a day one starter", the Bills were announcing he would be having that surgery after all.

 

Apparently, "the occurrence" that was more injurious than a season of Div 1 football was "a swim move" around a tackling dummy.

 

How silly does this story have to sound to get you to admit the obvious?

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

On 6/20/2018 at 10:48 AM, HappyDays said:

When's the last time we had a GM who came right out and said this player isn't performing as well as we expect and he needs to do better? It's so refreshing.

 

Word. Beane's the man.

 

 

[Kelly the Dog]

1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

It bears no resemblance to OTAs.

 

Look, 6 days after announcing Shaq was "a day one starter", the Bills were announcing he would be having that surgery after all.

 

Apparently, "the occurrence" that was more injurious than a season of Div 1 football was "a swim move" around a tackling dummy.

 

How silly does this story have to sound to get you to admit the obvious?

If. They. Knew. His. Shoulder. Needed. Surgery. They. Would. Not. Have. Had. Him. Doing. Swim. Moves. In. Minicamp.

 

Maybe you think a swim move is like the back stroke in a pool but it's not.

 

It bears no resemblance to OTAs? You mean except for being an organized team activity in shorts and helmets and jerseys running drills and running generic plays from the playbook at half speed?

[stuvian]

Old Regime + High Salary = Gone

[Mr. WEO]

1 hour ago, Kelly the Dog said:

If. They. Knew. His. Shoulder. Needed. Surgery. They. Would. Not. Have. Had. Him. Doing. Swim. Moves. In. Minicamp.

 

Maybe you think a swim move is like the back stroke in a pool but it's not.

 

It bears no resemblance to OTAs? You mean except for being an organized team activity in shorts and helmets and jerseys running drills and running generic plays from the playbook at half speed?

 

 

Hmmm, is it just like starting in 15 college football games at Clemson and recording 59 tackles, 25 for a loss, and 12.5 sacks? With a well known "swim move" that draftwire called "his trump card"?

 

Yeah, anyway....either Whaley was the dumbest of the GMs who were looking at possibly drafting Shaq in the 1st round---BECAUSE he was then only one who DIDN'T realize he would need this surgery before the season started....

 

....or he knew it and used that knowing his man would fall to Buffalo in the first.  Which is a ballsy move the I give him credit for--taking his pick no matter what.  I'm just calling BS on the subsequent "oh darn it, Shaq will need surgery before, not after the season.

 

You see, I'm giving Whaley some credit here.  You, on the other hand, are assuming he was just too dumb to figure out what at least other teams reportedly concluded about Shaq's shoulder