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How Bills' Wide Receivers are Fighting to Make a Name for Themselves

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2 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I don't agree.  The Bills aren't going to give up on a second round pick after one year, not unless the guy is a bad actor of some kind.   They drafted him because he has talent.   He had a subpar rookie year, but he saw more time than a lot of rookie receivers.   

 

You're better off keeping a talented young guy a year too long than a year too short.   

To the bolded quotes:

An argument could be made for the former, but I certainly agree with the latter.

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2 minutes ago, Rocky Landing said:

To the bolded quotes:

An argument could be made for the former, but I certainly agree with the latter.

The reason I think you don't cut a second round pick after one year is that the one thing that the scouts can evaluate with a high degree of certainty is raw physical talent.   The guys with superior raw physical talent get drafted in the first two rounds.  They're just physically better.   

 

Now, being physically better isn't all it takes to be a success in the league, but its the one characteristic that a player can't change.  The guy taken in the second round is always going to be physically better than the guy taken in the fifth round.   The fifth rounder can make the team by being smarter, working harder, etc., but he's always going to be beaten out by the second rounder who's as smart and works as hard.   

 

It takes most rookies a year to learn to survive in the league.   It's in his second year that he really starts learning and playing the position.   So you have to wait a year to see what a year's experience will do for him.   

 

The best free agents are the guys drafted in the second round, coming off their rookie contract after having underperformed.   They have experience, they have superior talent, and they probably will succeed with a change of scenery.   You don't want to lose those guys; you want to develop them.   So you don't cut them unless they're problems.  

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4 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

No, he's correct.  Not many rookie receivers make a splash, and mostly just the high picks.   There are some exceptions, most guys don't emerge until their second or third years.   I'd guess it relates to learning to read the defenses and learning to be elite route runners, because that's how guys make it in the league.   The guys who are stars in year one are the guys with top-end talent.  That's not Zay, and no one ever thought that's who he is.  

Then there's guys like Karlos Williams, and John Miller...

 

I know that Zay wasn't supposed to be the top-end, playmaking star WR. What he was supposed to be was consistent, and NFL-ready. He's been none of that. 

 

For the record, I'm not trying to hate on him, and I'm not advocating to cut him. But, at the same time, I don't think he should be valued above any rookie that out-performs him in the preseason, and it boggles my mind that he continues to be considered by many to be the "presumed #2."

1 minute ago, Shaw66 said:

The reason I think you don't cut a second round pick after one year is that the one thing that the scouts can evaluate with a high degree of certainty is raw physical talent.   The guys with superior raw physical talent get drafted in the first two rounds.  They're just physically better.   

 

Now, being physically better isn't all it takes to be a success in the league, but its the one characteristic that a player can't change.  The guy taken in the second round is always going to be physically better than the guy taken in the fifth round.   The fifth rounder can make the team by being smarter, working harder, etc., but he's always going to be beaten out by the second rounder who's as smart and works as hard.   

 

It takes most rookies a year to learn to survive in the league.   It's in his second year that he really starts learning and playing the position.   So you have to wait a year to see what a year's experience will do for him.   

 

The best free agents are the guys drafted in the second round, coming off their rookie contract after having underperformed.   They have experience, they have superior talent, and they probably will succeed with a change of scenery.   You don't want to lose those guys; you want to develop them.   So you don't cut them unless they're problems.  

Then this may be where Jones is an outlier. Because, correct me if I'm wrong, Jones wasn't projected to be a stud physical specimen, or outstanding playmaker, but as someone who had an enormous amount of playing time, who had started for four years in college, and had reliable hands-- someone who would be consistent, and ready to play day one. 

 

But, this is just my recollection from last year.

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16 minutes ago, Rocky Landing said:

Then there's guys like Karlos Williams, and John Miller...

 

I know that Zay wasn't supposed to be the top-end, playmaking star WR. What he was supposed to be was consistent, and NFL-ready. He's been none of that. 

 

For the record, I'm not trying to hate on him, and I'm not advocating to cut him. But, at the same time, I don't think he should be valued above any rookie that out-performs him in the preseason, and it boggles my mind that he continues to be considered by many to be the "presumed #2."

Then this may be where Jones is an outlier. Because, correct me if I'm wrong, Jones wasn't projected to be a stud physical specimen, or outstanding playmaker, but as someone who had an enormous amount of playing time, who had started for four years in college, and had reliable hands-- someone who would be consistent, and ready to play day one. 

 

But, this is just my recollection from last year.

Yes, he may be an outlier.  He may be a failure.   But he was far from an utter failure last year.   He may have underperformed expectations, but he wasn't a disaster.   You keep him to see how he develops. 

 

Yes, your recollection is correct.   You describe him as he was billed.   But that's the same description as for Austin Proehl.   Why did one go in the second and one in the seventh?  They didn't make a five round mistake on Zay.   Austin Proehl wishes he had the physical characteristics Jones has and showed in college.  

 

You just don't cut second round talent after one year unless there's something wrong with him.

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I believe it's high likely that Benjamin, Jones, Kerley, and Holmes make the roster. That leaves, at most, two spots open.

So the question becomes: who takes the final two spots? 

Brandon Reilly
Ray Ray McCloud
Austin Proehl
Robert foster
Malachi Dupre
Rod Streater
Quan Bray

Two of the top four listed guys seem likely to me.

 

Edited by Logic

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1 minute ago, Logic said:

I believe it's high likely that Benjamin, Jones, Kerley, and Holmes make the roster. That leaves, at most, two spots open.

So the question becomes: who takes the final two spots? 

Brandon Reilly
Ray Ray McCloud
Austin Proehl
Robert foster
Malachi Dupre
Rod Streater
Quan Bray


 

 

I don't think Holmes is a lock...

 

I'm going to make a prediction right now three months from Game 1 that Reilly makes it... I think they like him and he seems to be leaking "process"...

 

 

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This is how I think it will shake out....

Kelvin Benjamin - # 1
Zay Jones - # 2
Jeremy Kerley - # 3
Andre Holmes - Cut
Brandon Reilly - # 5
Ray Ray McCloud - Practice Squad
Austin Proehl - Cut
Robert foster - # 6
Malachi Dupre - Cut
Rod Streater - # 4
Quan Bray - Cut 

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6 hours ago, mannc said:

I actually don’t think it’s a sure thing Zay makes it, although it’s certainly likely.  The only thing worse than his performance last season was his offseason.  If he doesn’t show serious improvement, and the drafted rookies play really well, Zay could be on the outside looking in.

I do not see Zay being cut after one year.  As a second round pick and the fact that receivers mature later than other positions, he will be given year 2 to reach his potential.

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6 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

I dont have a leg to stand on with this....but I really think that while everyone thinks WR is our biggest weakness.....I have this feeling that we are going to feeling really good about it by the end of the season.

 

Something tells me Zay is gonna make a jump...Kerley is gonna be solid......Brandon Reilly is going to make plays.....and one of the young guys is going to emerge.....allowing us to go into next season looking at OL and defense

 

jmo....and I know is a reach

 

...have to agree John......this "doom 'n gloom" and "worst in the NFL" stuff gets old when we (1) don't even know what the hell we have and (2) have a group that has been vastly untested in any type of downfield passing game last year......

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7 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

I don't agree.  The Bills aren't going to give up on a second round pick after one year, not unless the guy is a bad actor of some kind.   They drafted him because he has talent.   He had a subpar rookie year, but he saw more time than a lot of rookie receivers.   

 

You're better off keeping a talented young guy a year too long than a year too short.   

If Whaley drafted him he would've been cut or traded by now.

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I don't think Holmes is guaranteed IMO and neither is Streater....I do think Zay and KB aren't going anywhere. However, Foster, Reilly, and Proehl are the three I think will make the team along with Kerley, Zay and KB. I just think Daboll values shiftiness in the slot and want Foster / Proehl for that while Zay I think does much better in the slot, his size kind of puts him on the outside. I wouldn't be surprised to see more 4 WR sets with two guys in the slot being Kerley and Proehl / Foster....who knows, but I think Reilly is making some noise plus I think Holmes is done and Streater probably is just going to be overwhelmed by the younger, faster, cheaper guys already mentioned. 

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15 hours ago, Logic said:

I believe it's high likely that Benjamin, Jones, Kerley, and Holmes make the roster. That leaves, at most, two spots open.

So the question becomes: who takes the final two spots? 

Brandon Reilly
Ray Ray McCloud
Austin Proehl
Robert foster
Malachi Dupre
Rod Streater
Quan Bray

Two of the top four listed guys seem likely to me.

 

I wouldn't bet on Holmes making the team. I think that Proehl goes to the PS.

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They can start by fighting for Jesus...and then get in line behind clear #1, Zay Jones...

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On 6/12/2018 at 9:14 PM, Shaw66 said:

The point is not whether you or I think he is the answer.  The point is he is a veteran, so he knows a lot more than rookies.  As long as he uses that knowledge he will be one of the best in camp because of what he knows. 

 

He IS fighting for a roster shot, but being a veteran gives him a big edge. 

 

 

The fact that they dumped the WR coach who coached him in college and then recommended him to Bills to draft probably gives him a very narrow edge.

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On 6/12/2018 at 9:59 PM, mannc said:

I actually don’t think it’s a sure thing Zay makes it, although it’s certainly likely.  The only thing worse than his performance last season was his offseason.  If he doesn’t show serious improvement, and the drafted rookies play really well, Zay could be on the outside looking in.

I'm just going to agree with you. I would think he is already on the outside looking in. I myself couldn't dismiss the little freak out incident. The spot a person gets drafted doesn't guarantee success. Plus if the surgery causes missed reps that won't help. 

 

Anything can happen or whatever but I wouldn't bet on Zay at this point. I'm going to have to see something to believe it at this point. On a different team with more established WRs I don't think Zay is sitting comfortable at all. 

 

I'm rooting for him and hope he is successful but all I've seen is situations that make me doubt it more. You can't preach an earn it type culture and favor somebody over draft spot to protect your pride. That can be the case but it's folding on your own culture. Unless Zay is that good he should be seen as equal to the other unknowns on the team. That is how I see him in a way. 

 

I don't want a person to win the starting role by default. I want them to legitimately beat out the competition. 

Edited by Lfod

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55 minutes ago, Lfod said:

I'm just going to agree with you. I would think he is already on the outside looking in. I myself couldn't dismiss the little freak out incident. The spot a person gets drafted doesn't guarantee success. Plus if the surgery causes missed reps that won't help. 

 

Anything can happen or whatever but I wouldn't bet on Zay at this point. I'm going to have to see something to believe it at this point. On a different team with more established WRs I don't think Zay is sitting comfortable at all.

 

I think he better come into camp able to recite the playbook forward and backward and make the most of every rep.  I tend to agree with you, if he comes in with an "I'm safe!" attitude he's gone.

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On 6/12/2018 at 9:07 PM, Rocky Landing said:

Obviously, his draft position means a lot less after his rookie season. Also, IIRC, his big selling point when he was drafted was not that he was a big playmaker, but that he was the most NFL-ready WR of his class. That has certainly not proven to be the case.

I believe you're right that he is very likely to make the roster. But, I think that says a lot more about how thin we are at WR than anything else. I have to think that most other teams would not value him the way we seem to, and if we dropped him today, is there another team in the NFL that would pick him up?

Short answer yes, he is in his second year and set the NCAA record for receptions, he is young enough and has enough potential. Think of guys like Alshon Jeffery, he took a couple years to make his impact. WR isn't a plug and play position, it takes time to develop.

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If we had Brady or Rodgers, our wrs might be ok.  If our qbs had Julio Jones or Antonio Brown, our qbs might be ok.

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21 hours ago, Jeetz1231 said:

Short answer yes, he is in his second year and set the NCAA record for receptions, he is young enough and has enough potential. Think of guys like Alshon Jeffery, he took a couple years to make his impact. WR isn't a plug and play position, it takes time to develop.

 

It does not help that his college coach who was his NFL coach last year did not help him to adapt. 

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On 6/13/2018 at 1:07 AM, Logic said:

I believe it's high likely that Benjamin, Jones, Kerley, and Holmes make the roster. That leaves, at most, two spots open.

So the question becomes: who takes the final two spots? 

Brandon Reilly
Ray Ray McCloud
Austin Proehl
Robert foster
Malachi Dupre
Rod Streater
Quan Bray

Two of the top four listed guys seem likely to me.

 

 

I think they'll consider keeping 7. 

 

My guess is Benjamin, Jones, Kerley, Holmes, Streater, McCloud, and Proehl.

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