Should the NFL let players police themselves on the field more?

[BillsFan130]

I was talking with a few posters about this yesterday regarding what they should have done to Gronk after the cheap shot he put on White.

 

A few posters said cheap shot him back next game, and I disagreed with that as I said they should have clocked Gronk one and even tussled with him right after the hit.

 

Now a poster brought up that fighting is illegal in the NFL and results in an ejection, which is true. Which leads me to my next point. Why doesn't the NFL loosen up on that rule a bit and let the players police themselves a bit more?

 

I am not saying take off the helmets like hockey and throw haymakers, but let them tussle for a little bit and let them defend themselves or their teammates.

 

I made the example yesterday that Hockey has the best policing system in any sports. You hit someone dirty? You are going to have to fight the person like a man and own up to it.

 

If Hockey didn't have fighting, I really think people would be going around slashing people's hands, or taking head shots, or just doing anything dirty to try to get that payback. They don't need to do that though because fighting allows them to police the game outside of the officials.

 

A prime example was last nights game. Smith Schuster smoked Burfict in the head, and then Cinci comes back and drills Antonio Brown in the head when he scores the TD. Almost like an eye for an eye type of deal.

 

The players are not allowed to police themselves in the NFL and this is where head shots come in, and pretty much anything else dirty will come in.

 

Like I said, I am not saying go full out hockey and take the helmets off and scrap. But maybe give them a little more freedom to defend themselves and their teammates. And if they do initiate the tussle, give them a 10 yard penalty or something, just like you would get an instigator penalty in Hockey.

 

Thoughts about this?

 

 

Edited December 5, 2017 by billsfan11

[BuffaloBill]

No way.... I think this whole concept would ruin the game.  We’ve forgotten the entire notion of sportsmanship in this discussion.  Instead we want a vigilante system?

 

The NFL already has violence, away from the field, issues and a CTE problem.  Allowing for fights pn the filed will likely only serve to make both of these worse.

 

In the Gronk type situation the league needs to step in harder.  It was an intentional act that may put a player out of one or more games due to a concussion.  If the league is serious about the concussion protocol they should have ejected him from the current game and suspended him for a longer period to include as many games as the injured player misses.  

 

Keep in mind the players have a union that will likely fight any actions taken by the league.  I’m guessing there are rules or standards of punishment that come into play.

 

 

[BillsFan130]

1 minute ago, BuffaloBill said:

No way.... I think this whole concept would ruin the game.  We’ve forgotten the entire notion of sportsmanship in this discussion.  Instead we want a vigilante system?

 

The NFL already has violence, away from the field, issues and a CTE problem.  Allowing for fights pn the filed will likely only serve to make both of these worse.

 

In the Gronk type situation the league needs to step in harder.  It was an intentional act that may put a player out of one or more games due to a concussion.  If the league is serious about the concussion protocol they should have ejected him from the current game and suspended him for a longer period to include as many games as the injured player misses.  

 

Keep in mind the players have a union that will likely fight any actions taken by the league.  I’m guessing there are rules or standards of punishment that come into play.

 

 

I hear your points and I know what I am saying is a bit farfetched.

 

I just know this system works in hockey wonderfully, and I'm wondering if it would limit cheap shots in Football as well

[Happy]

I get where you're coming from, but the players policing themselves will lead to the inmates running the asylum.  At what point would "retribution" be served, and who would determine when enough is enough?  

[BillsFan130]

5 minutes ago, Happy Gilmore said:

I get where you're coming from, but the players policing themselves will lead to the inmates running the asylum.  At what point would "retribution" be served, and who would determine when enough is enough?  

Same idea in hockey though. Very very rarely the inmates run the show where the refs can't control it.

 

If helmets come off or punches to the head are thrown, then automatic ejection/suspension. Could start with that

Edited December 5, 2017 by billsfan11

[oldmanfan]

It works in hockey because their sticks can be a lethal weapon if swung at a guy.  yes the Gronkowski hit was punk and potentially very dangerous, but would not have the same potential for lethal injury that clocking someone with a hockey stick would have.

 

Plus if you let NFL players do this, you'd start seeing things like cheap shots to a guy's knees that could cost a career.

[BillsFan130]

Just now, oldmanfan said:

It works in hockey because their sticks can be a lethal weapon if swung at a guy.  yes the Gronkowski hit was punk and potentially very dangerous, but would not have the same potential for lethal injury that clocking someone with a hockey stick would have.

 

Plus if you let NFL players do this, you'd start seeing things like cheap shots to a guy's knees that could cost a career.

I would argue that the players crown of the helmet can be a lethal weapon as well though. As we saw multiple times last night.

 

And I think the opposite. If you let players tussle a little bit, I think cheap shots would go down. If you don't let them handle it, then cheap shots will go up. Posters here are already saying "end gronk's career" and "go after his knees"

[oldmanfan]

Helmets can be lethal, but NFL players have a lot more protection than hockey players do with their own hard helmets, pads, etc. 

 

The answer for the NFL is to eject guys and then suspend them multiple games for the kind of stuff Gronk did and for the kind of stuff you saw last night. 

 

The problem I see with your approach is you don't really know where it ends.  When does the football ref step in and say enough.  With hockey they kind of tire themselves out.  And not that I'm a huge fan of the hockey fighting either

[4_kidd_4]

The “system” really doesn’t work in NHL these days. No one keeps a roster spot for a goon anymore. The ‘enforcer’ is becoming a thing of the past, and rightfully so.

 

If the NHL was serious about safety, they would go with european size ice(would open up the entertaining speed game that fans want)  , and ban fighting altogether. These guys are bigger, faster and stronger than ever before, and the equipment is practically armor. It’s not the 70’s anymore.

 

Opening up the ice would likely also lead to less incidents along the boards, and you would need speed/skill players at about every spot. Lumbering defensemen and marginally skilled rats would stay in the minors.

 

But to answer the OP, no. Not in the NFL.

[BillsFan130]

15 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Helmets can be lethal, but NFL players have a lot more protection than hockey players do with their own hard helmets, pads, etc. 

 

The answer for the NFL is to eject guys and then suspend them multiple games for the kind of stuff Gronk did and for the kind of stuff you saw last night. 

 

The problem I see with your approach is you don't really know where it ends.  When does the football ref step in and say enough.  With hockey they kind of tire themselves out.  And not that I'm a huge fan of the hockey fighting either

I know. I know there are flaws to what I'm saying. I appreciate your comments

10 minutes ago, 4_kidd_4 said:

The “system” really doesn’t work in NHL these days. No one keeps a roster spot for a goon anymore. The ‘enforcer’ is becoming a thing of the past, and rightfully so.

 

If the NHL was serious about safety, they would go with european size ice(would open up the entertaining speed game that fans want)  , and ban fighting altogether. These guys are bigger, faster and stronger than ever before, and the equipment is practically armor. It’s not the 70’s anymore.

 

Opening up the ice would likely also lead to less incidents along the boards, and you would need speed/skill players at about every spot. Lumbering defensemen and marginally skilled rats would stay in the minors.

 

But to answer the OP, no. Not in the NFL.

Hmm I'm old school in terms of hockey so I don't like your rule changes to no fighting and switching to the European ice... Haha.

 

I appreciate your comment though. Most people I'm sure will definitely agree with you in terms of the no fighting in the NFL as I am well aware I'm in the minority

Edited December 5, 2017 by billsfan11

[4_kidd_4]

I’m as old school as it comes when it comes to sports, but things need to change with the times.

 

NHL in its current state is unwatchable during the regular season. Goalies are huge. There’s so much ‘fire it wide and hope for a bounce’ stuff, zzzzzz(Playoffs, however, are a different story). Opening up the ice would completely open up the game again.

[BillsFan130]

5 minutes ago, 4_kidd_4 said:

I’m as old school as it comes when it comes to sports, but things need to change with the times.

 

NHL in its current state is unwatchable during the regular season. Goalies are huge. There’s so much ‘fire it wide and hope for a bounce’ stuff, zzzzzz(Playoffs, however, are a different story). Opening up the ice would completely open up the game again.

Opening the ice generally means lower scoring as weird as that sounds. Do you remember 2014 Sochi Olympics? Every game was like 2-1. Teams take away the middle and keep everything to the wider perimeter.

 

 

Sorry getting off topic from my original topic but I had to clear that up lol.

 

I also love fighting in hockey and I think the game would turn very ugly if they took it out. There would be a lot more cheap shots cause players know they don't have to fight if they do something dirty

[4_kidd_4]

The low scoring could have been a result of NHL players “adjusting” to the larger ice.  Yeah, the middle gets bogged but there’s still more room for transition and speed.

 

Here’s a decent breakdown;

 

https://www.sbnation.com/nhl/2014/2/5/5327440/winter-olympics-2014-hockey-ice-size-nhl-rink-comparison

 

 

[26CornerBlitz]

Sure. Let's have games spin out of control into full scale brawls. Come on man!

[Sig1Hunter]

The NFL is in a tough position.  Goodell was blasted for being too harsh on player punishment a few years ago (and still today,  sometimes). The NFLPA , meanwhile,  seems more intent on individual player assistance rather than the collective betterment of player situations.  The players whine and moan about how the league doesn't care about their health (may or may not be true), but then they go out and willfully and egregiously violate safety rules put in place so they can inflict serious injury upon one another.  Can't have it both ways. 

Edited December 5, 2017 by Sig1Hunter

[BillsFan130]

6 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

Sure. Let's have games spin out of control into full scale brawls. Come on man!

Lol a simple "No I don't think it would work" would also have done just fine lol

[26CornerBlitz]

2 minutes ago, billsfan11 said:

Lol a simple "No I don't think it would work" would also have done just fine lol

 

That would be too easy. 

[BillsFan130]

Just now, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

That would be too easy. 

Hahaha fair enough

[Bing Bong]

I wouldn't like it. Also I honestly don't know who on our 53 could throw down with Gronk right there in a legitimate fight. And I don't want our 53 to include a "goon" or 2 to run in and start that brawl.

 

I understand your argument. If I'm the Steelers OC, I'd be incredibly nervous drawing up Antonio Brown's bread and butter middle routes after JuJu declared open head hunting season. I've heard JuJu's hit was legal, but that's not going to change any defender's mind watching Burfict stretchered off.

 

And it sucks when this nonsense starts to affect the Xs and Os of the game.

[BillsFan130]

3 minutes ago, PetermanThrew5Picks said:

I wouldn't like it. Also I honestly don't know who on our 53 could throw down with Gronk right there in a legitimate fight. And I don't want our 53 to include a "goon" or 2 to run in and start that brawl.

 

I understand your argument. If I'm the Steelers OC, I'd be incredibly nervous drawing up Antonio Brown's bread and butter middle routes after JuJu declared open head hunting season. I've heard JuJu's hit was legal, but that's not going to change any defender's mind watching Burfict stretchered off.

 

And it sucks when this nonsense starts to affect the Xs and Os of the game.

I agree with most of what you said. Thank you for your comment

[DC Tom]

Split the difference: let them police the refs.

[MDH]

The league should be doling out punishments, not other players. The problem is that when the league fails to do a good job of it the players take it into their own hands. Players should be booted from games quicker, docked massive amounts of coin and suspended for dirty play. And not just the one game suspension slap on the wrist when the play was egregious.  

 

Lost in all this hub hub about Gronk is that I've yet to hear anybody mention on radio, tv or print that at the end of that play the Bills were the ones penalized for SAYING SOMETHING TO THE REF. The illustrates the NFL's priorities right there. Saying something to the ref is worse than endangering other players on the field. The players are paying attention too and if the refs and league don't step up their game and require a more disciplined player base the players will take it into their own hands, whether the league likes it or not.

 

 

Edited December 5, 2017 by MDH

[Bing Bong]

8 minutes ago, billsfan11 said:

I agree with most of what you said. Thank you for your comment

Do I want to see Gronk and Jarvis Landry whacked when they play the Bills? Absolutely, sounds like JuJu got his payback for Burfict (even as a rookie!) in a presumably legal block (I don't claim to know the rules). Course we got to protect our WRs and QB when we draw up plays.. No contested middle catches for Zay please! We're playing with house money by this point.

[BillsFan130]

6 minutes ago, MDH said:

The league should be doling out punishments, not other players. The problem is that when the league fails to do a good job of it the players take it into their own hands. Players should be from games quicker, docked massive amounts of coin and suspended for dirty play. And not just the one game suspension slap on the wrist when the play was egregious.  

 

Lost in all this hub hub about Gronk is that I've yet to hear anybody mention on radio, tv or print that at the end of that play the Bills were the ones penalized for SAYING SOMETHING TO THE REF. The illustrates the NFL's priorities right there. Saying something to the ref is worse than endangering other players on the field. The players are paying attention too and if the refs and league don't step up their game and require a more disciplined player base the players will take it into their own hands, whether the league likes it or not.

 

 

Ya the problem is the league doesn't do squat. They don't want star players being suspended for a long time

[Happy]

32 minutes ago, DC Tom said:

Split the difference: let them police the refs.

Well Hughes tries to do this...and gets unsportsmanlike flags.

[MAJBobby]

if hockey didn't have Fighting it would be more fun to watch.

 

Well that and the other myriad of issues with the NHL

[Bing Bong]

If we're out, I'm picturing us bringing up a mysterious D league gronk sized hockey goon to the active roster when we play in Foxborough. League's never heard of him, but he has 2 Gronk sleeves from some old high school football injury (staff will make up a whole back story for this dude). And the goon just lines up in front of Gronk and mauls him until he's ejected.

 

Because hockey solves everything.

[Eastcoastlegacy]

The league has enough money to pay an independent team of reviewers.  Make up a jury of fans (one from each team), doctors, scouts, past players/coaches/refs and a few current players to make some decisions.  If we feel this is too biased then have a completely random group of people with no interest in the sport make the decision.  We have independent neurologists for evaluation of concussions, do something similar for consideration of fines and suspensions.

[DC Tom]

24 minutes ago, Happy Gilmore said:

Well Hughes tries to do this...and gets unsportsmanlike flags.

 

Hughes pats his own teammate on the head and gets unsportsmanlike flags.  

[BillsFan130]

24 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

if hockey didn't have Fighting it would be more fun to watch.

 

Well that and the other myriad of issues with the NHL

You think? As barbaric as it sounds I love watching fighting in hockey. 

 

The staged fights can be a bit lame, but I love the bad blood Fighting

[DC Tom]

13 minutes ago, PetermanThrew5Picks said:

If we're out, I'm picturing us bringing up a mysterious D league gronk sized hockey goon to the active roster when we play in Foxborough. League's never heard of him, but he has 2 Gronk sleeves from some old high school football injury (staff will make up a whole back story for this dude). And the goon just lines up in front of Gronk and mauls him until he's ejected.

 

Because hockey solves everything.

 

I'd rather Kyle Williams went to the front office and said "I'm retiring at the end of the season...but don't announce it yet, because for my very last game I want to do nothing but tee off on Tom Brady and hit him every play.  Run, pass, doesn't matter.  I just want to hit him really !@#$ing hard."

[Bing Bong]

8 minutes ago, DC Tom said:

 

I'd rather Kyle Williams went to the front office and said "I'm retiring at the end of the season...but don't announce it yet, because for my very last game I want to do nothing but tee off on Tom Brady and hit him every play.  Run, pass, doesn't matter.  I just want to hit him really !@#$ing hard."

It's the ending Kyle Williams deserves. As perfect Buffalo career as you can have during the Brady era.

[RyanC883]

1 hour ago, PetermanThrew5Picks said:

I wouldn't like it. Also I honestly don't know who on our 53 could throw down with Gronk right there in a legitimate fight. And I don't want our 53 to include a "goon" or 2 to run in and start that brawl.

 

I understand your argument. If I'm the Steelers OC, I'd be incredibly nervous drawing up Antonio Brown's bread and butter middle routes after JuJu declared open head hunting season. I've heard JuJu's hit was legal, but that's not going to change any defender's mind watching Burfict stretchered off.

 

And it sucks when this nonsense starts to affect the Xs and Os of the game.

 

JuJu's hit was MUCH MUCH more defensible than Gronk's hit.  It was a football play and likely legal.  The after-the-play taunting made it look much worse--but then again, the guy he was taunting has a history of dirty play, and JuJu was likely happy he just blocked him to the ground.     

1 hour ago, billsfan11 said:

Ya the problem is the league doesn't do squat. They don't want star players being suspended for a long time

 

exactly.  But the league is so short-sighted here.  A hit like Gronk's--after the play ended--is so clearly against every rule of clean play that suspending him for the year would send the message that it will not be tolerated.  The more the NFL permits hits like Gronk's by 1 game suspensions, the more of them there will likely be, in turn the league will lose fans and/or the targeted player.  

[Bing Bong]

45 minutes ago, RyanC883 said:

JuJu's hit was MUCH MUCH more defensible than Gronk's hit.  It was a football play and likely legal.  The after-the-play taunting made it look much worse--but then again, the guy he was taunting has a history of dirty play, and JuJu was likely happy he just blocked him to the ground.   

The JuJu play was awesome, dude's a rookie but he's already 100% on board with getting Burfict back for that playoff game on Brown.

 

I don't even think Burfict started the beef, Ward, Harrison, Timmons were notoriously dirty, particularly against the Bengals back when they had a high flying offense (Chad Johnson, Houshmandzadeh, Palmer).

 

I'm all for getting Gronk (or Brady cause that'll hurt Gronk even more) back. But it's not good look if we have a poor record going in, and want to the game to be a Steelers/Bengals bloodbath. I hope both teams are playing for something in Fox borough; Micah Hyde (seemed the most pissed off, guy wants to protect his young secondary) just goes right for the ACL. And Kyle Williams doesn't play rolly polly sack with standing-fetal-position-Tom.

[Mr. WEO]

"Policing themselves" would mean not committing cheap shots.....

2 hours ago, MAJBobby said:

if hockey didn't have Fighting it would be more fun to watch.

 

Well that and the other myriad of issues with the NHL

 

No then it would be soccer on skates.

[Bing Bong]

11 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

No then it would be soccer on skates.

Soccer's fun lol, the centerbacks usually are your muscle when they see something they don't like. Gretzky just wanted to play hockey, and the sport is more fun when everybody is on the same page.

[reddogblitz]

2 hours ago, MAJBobby said:

if hockey didn't have Fighting it would be more fun to watch.

 

I don't watch hockey BECAUSE of the fights.  I'm sure hockey fans feel differently.  But they could end the fighting if they wanted to.  Anyone caught fighting gets tossed out for 3 games.  But they do'n' want to obviously.

 

As far as if they did allow fighting in football, all that would do would piss off whoever got the least in the fight to come back and get retaliation either on the field or in the next fight.  

 

I vote no to the proposition to allow fighting in football.

Edited December 5, 2017 by reddogblitz

[BillsFan130]

35 minutes ago, reddogblitz said:

 

I don't watch hockey BECAUSE of the fights.  I'm sure hockey fans feel differently.  But they could end the fighting if they wanted to.  Anyone caught fighting gets tossed out for 3 games.  But they do'n' want to obviously.

 

As far as if they did allow fighting in football, all that would do would piss off whoever got the least in the fight to come back and get retaliation either on the field or in the next fight.  

 

I vote no to the proposition to allow fighting in football.

It seems like more Americans feel strongly towards the no fighting in Hockey. I could be wrong but that just seems like the consensus from watching and listening to American sports shows/podcasts.

 

I am Canadian and it would not sit well for the majority of our fans here if they took fighting away in Hockey.

 

In regards to your stance for fighting in Football, I think the tussle would settle a lot. Generally after one fight in Hockey, the dust gets settled and there isn't anything more from there. Not always true, but most of the time.

 

A good example was last year when Malkin injured Andrew Ladd. The next game Ladd and Malkin dropped the gloves cleanly, and Ladd actually gave props to Malkin for fighting. All was forgotten from there and respect was actually gained between the two. That is what I am trying to get at in terms of Football. I think a little tussle to settle things is a lot better then taking a cheap shot back

 

[Fadingpain]

6 hours ago, billsfan11 said:

I was talking with a few posters about this yesterday regarding what they should have done to Gronk after the cheap shot he put on White.

 

A few posters said cheap shot him back next game, and I disagreed with that as I said they should have clocked Gronk one and even tussled with him right after the hit.

 

Now a poster brought up that fighting is illegal in the NFL and results in an ejection, which is true. Which leads me to my next point. Why doesn't the NFL loosen up on that rule a bit and let the players police themselves a bit more?

 

I am not saying take off the helmets like hockey and throw haymakers, but let them tussle for a little bit and let them defend themselves or their teammates.

 

I made the example yesterday that Hockey has the best policing system in any sports. You hit someone dirty? You are going to have to fight the person like a man and own up to it.

 

If Hockey didn't have fighting, I really think people would be going around slashing people's hands, or taking head shots, or just doing anything dirty to try to get that payback. They don't need to do that though because fighting allows them to police the game outside of the officials.

 

A prime example was last nights game. Smith Schuster smoked Burfict in the head, and then Cinci comes back and drills Antonio Brown in the head when he scores the TD. Almost like an eye for an eye type of deal.

 

The players are not allowed to police themselves in the NFL and this is where head shots come in, and pretty much anything else dirty will come in.

 

Like I said, I am not saying go full out hockey and take the helmets off and scrap. But maybe give them a little more freedom to defend themselves and their teammates. And if they do initiate the tussle, give them a 10 yard penalty or something, just like you would get an instigator penalty in Hockey.

 

Thoughts about this?

 

 

Your comments about hockey are about 15 years out of date.

 

Much of the policing code has been removed from the game and all that slashing to the wrists, etc., you speak of has run out of control as a result, as has boarding from behind and other cheap shot offenses.

 

I have heard many ex NHL hockey players say that the old code is simple: It is not fun to get beaten up by someone in a fist fight and it keeps you honest.  You are not going to do certain things, or not nearly as often, if you know you are going to be punched in the face after you do it.

 

The NFL would benefit from this type of thing too in my opinion, but for some reason, most NFL players, despite being huge and strong, do not have this type of toughness in them.  They'll throw a huge hit (tackle) but no one seems to want to muck it up after a whistle, except for a few guys you might see once every blue moon.

 

Far more common is this weird football thing where the 2 protagonists grab each other's face masks and pull them around.

 

As to why no one just rips that helmet off quickly and easily and throws a few is beyond me, other than the obvious "You'll be ejected."

But you are probably going to be ejected anyway if you really get into it with that stupid face mask dance.  So at least get your money's worth and throw a few haymakers.  Might even connect on one of them!  

 

 

Edited December 5, 2017 by Fadingpain

[BillsFan130]

2 minutes ago, Fadingpain said:

Your comments about hockey are about 15 years out of date.

 

Much of the policing code has been removed from the game and all that slashing to the wrists, etc., you speak of has run out of control as a result, as has boarding from behind and other cheap shot offenses.

 

I have heard many ex NHL hockey players say that the old code is simple: It is not fun to get beaten up by someone in a fist fight and it keeps you honest.  You are not going to do certain things, or not nearly as often, if you know you are going to be punched in the face after you do it.

 

The NFL would benefit from this type of thing too in my opinion, but for some reason, most NFL players, despite being huge and strong, do not have this type of toughness in them.  They'll throw a huge hit (tackle) but no one seems to want to muck it up after a whistle, except for a few guys you might see once every blue moon.

 

Far more common is this weird football thing where the 2 protagonists grab each other's face masks and pull them around.

 

As to why no one just rips that helmet off quickly and easily and throws a few is beyond me, other than the obvious "You'll be ejected."

But you are probably going to be ejected anyway if you really get into it with that stupid face mask dance anyway.

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-5JT36xAPE

 

My comments are not 15 years out of date though. Here is an example last year where Malkin took a cheap shot at Wheeler, (I stated earlier it was Ladd but was mistaken) and the next game (the link I posted) these two faced off and fought. Wheeler gave respect to Malkin after the game and the dust was settled from there.

 

But yes, I for sure agree with everything else you stated in your post