THE ROCKPILE REVIEW - Ramblings of a Madman

[LABILLBACKER]

36 minutes ago, Figster said:

Players like Marcell Dareus are a cancer to a locker room. Something you can't have from the highest paid player on the team.

 

McD has the balls to make tough decisions looking into the future long term and I commend him for it.

 

Like OP, I still Billieve...

I agree with the Dareus trade and money dump but what absolutely shocks me is the teams apparent reaction to him leaving. The same team effort just isn't there anymore. Can't these players see the obvious cancer he was? So bizzare?

[Reed83HOF]

2 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

Three. I thought they needed help on the two lines.  They could live with Taylor and Benji and Matthews if they kept him.  

 

Now I think it's a total rebuild.  The team that goes to the playoffs will have essentially no one left from the Whaley years.  

 

It was a total rebuild from the beginning; a way to clean up the cap to start fresh. We traded a bunch of people for 2018 draft picks, and cleared cap commitments. There are some dead cap hits next season and more players to jettison for 2019 picks and and even better cap situation with very manageable dead $. I'm not expecting a lot in FA this offseason either; just enough to turn the roster...

[Hapless Bills Fan]

13 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

The Rockpile Review – by Shaw66

(...nice writing excised)

Why do I still believe?   I don’t know.  I can’t explain it.  Having watched most of the first half of the latest Bills disaster, a 54-24 drubbing at the hands of the Los Angeles Chargers (I missed Nathan Peterman’s first two interceptions), any rational person would not, could not believe that Sean McDermott could lead anyone to the Super Bowl, even if he were an Uber driver using Google maps.  (....Nice!)

 

The man actually said that he believed that Nathan Peterman gave the Bills the best chance to win.  How could a man who has spent every day of his adult life studying football and every day for the last six months watching Nathan Peterman not see that, at least right now, Nathan Peterman couldn’t possibly be the best option?  And yet, I still believe.  Call me crazy.  

 

I can tell you what makes me believe, but I can’t expect you to think I’m sane.  I believe there is a process, and the process will work.  McDermott is a student, and he’s been studying how to do this for a long time.  He’s smart, he’s determined, and he isn’t a quitter.  He will push the process.

 

Beane is cut from the same cloth.  They will add talent and mold the talent to fit their systems. 

 

I'm afraid at this point, I have trouble believing McWrestler and Mr Beane could recognize NFL talent if it bit them on the buttocks

6 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said:

 

It was a total rebuild from the beginning; a way to clean up the cap to start fresh. We traded a bunch of people for 2018 draft picks, and cleared cap commitments. There are some dead cap hits next season and more players to jettison for 2019 picks and and even better cap situation with very manageable dead $. I'm not expecting a lot in FA this offseason either; just enough to turn the roster...

 

Who are these players we are going to jettison for 2019 picks?

[Figster]

11 minutes ago, LABILLBACKER said:

I agree with the Dareus trade and money dump but what absolutely shocks me is the teams apparent reaction to him leaving. The same team effort just isn't there anymore. Can't these players see the obvious cancer he was? So bizzare?

The Dareus trade may not have set well with the players IMO.

[Reed83HOF]

3 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

Who are these players we are going to jettison for 2019 picks?

 

Hughes, TT & possibly Shady for starters. Shady is not going to stick around for this rebuild and it is a shame if we keep him here, he deserves better and to move to a team that can win it all. Lorax, Brown, Wood and it wouldn't surprise me to see Glenn go as well seeing he cannot seem to stay healthy. Clay as well....

 

jw tossed this out earlier this year - this reminded him of the 2000 tear down. Not a total gut and rebuild, but a roster churn while attempting to be competitive. I don't see us getting high picks for these players, but more mid to later rounds we can use to fill spots or parlay into moving up higher in the 2nd and 3rd... 

 

The goal/plan all along has been to turn the roster over while not going throw a browns style rebuild; it won't been done all in 1 offseason. Personally I would have torn it all down at once and ripped the band-aid off. There was a small window for this team, but that was gone once we got Rexy...

5 minutes ago, Figster said:

The Dareus trade may not have set well with the players IMO.

 

This will be a much different roster in the next year or 2...the playoff team will have very few of these players on it (Hyde & White might be the only 2 starters remaining)

[Ayjent]

50 minutes ago, Figster said:

The success early on suggests to me when the team executes plays properly scheme is not the problem IMO.

 

Missing tackles, missing blocks and dropping passes is a problem.

 

What will be remembered about N Petermans 1st start will be the 5 INT's. 

 

What will be forgotten is how poorly the supporting cast played around him in my humble opinion.

 

Every man on the Bills roster needs to take a real long look at themselves in the mirror

 

and fix the problem...

The Offensive scheme was a problem and continues to be a problem.   I'm not arguing that there are not execution problems that are more pronounced than they were, but they sat Miller for Ducasse and the OLine has been much worse since doing so.  The Defense was on the good side of the bounces for the 5-2 run, but there were certainly questions about how good they were against the pass.  What is really stark though is how bad they've been against the run the past three weeks, especially on the line.  And it is really hard not to make a connection between moving Dareus and the decline, and I'm not saying it is Dareus's play necessarily that they are missing, but more so that this move was not well received by the Defensive players who are not playing well or cohesively.  I tend to think there is something under the surface going on that we just don't know that has cause this team to nose dive.  I don't think players just automatically go from playing well to playing like garbage without something changing significantly in the locker room.

[Figster]

1 hour ago, Reed83HOF said:

 

Hughes, TT & possibly Shady for starters. Shady is not going to stick around for this rebuild and it is a shame if we keep him here, he deserves better and to move to a team that can win it all. Lorax, Brown, Wood and it wouldn't surprise me to see Glenn go as well seeing he cannot seem to stay healthy. Clay as well....

 

jw tossed this out earlier this year - this reminded him of the 2000 tear down. Not a total gut and rebuild, but a roster churn while attempting to be competitive. I don't see us getting high picks for these players, but more mid to later rounds we can use to fill spots or parlay into moving up higher in the 2nd and 3rd... 

 

The goal/plan all along has been to turn the roster over while not going throw a browns style rebuild; it won't been done all in 1 offseason. Personally I would have torn it all down at once and ripped the band-aid off. There was a small window for this team, but that was gone once we got Rexy...

 

this will be a much different roster in the next year or 2...the playoff team will have very few of these players on it (Hyde & White might be the only 2 starters remaining)

This would not surprise me

1 hour ago, Ayjent said:

The Offensive scheme was a problem and continues to be a problem.   I'm not arguing that there are not execution problems that are more pronounced than they were, but they sat Miller for Ducasse and the OLine has been much worse since doing so.  The Defense was on the good side of the bounces for the 5-2 run, but there were certainly questions about how good they were against the pass.  What is really stark though is how bad they've been against the run the past three weeks, especially on the line.  And it is really hard not to make a connection between moving Dareus and the decline, and I'm not saying it is Dareus's play necessarily that they are missing, but more so that this move was not well received by the Defensive players who are not playing well or cohesively.  I tend to think there is something under the surface going on that we just don't know that has cause this team to nose dive.  I don't think players just automatically go from playing well to playing like garbage without something changing significantly in the locker room.

When you have a QB That struggles in the pocket it goes with the territory.

[Ayjent]

1 hour ago, Figster said:

This would not surprise me

When you have a QB That struggles in the pocket it goes with the territory.

The QB in the pocket is not even close to the whole problem with the scheme.  It's the run blocking, the situational playcalling, the lack of adjustments, the personnel starting on the right side of the line, etc. 

 

However, to your point.  Can Taylor be effective when the scheme highlights his strengths?  The answer is yes.  When teams try to force him to stay in the pocket that is one thing, but when your OC forces him to do it, doesn't that benefit the defense?   It's not like Dennison doesn't have a blueprint for what works and a lot of resources in the players that ran that scheme last year.  He clearly only wants to run his Offense and thinks it is superior, regardless of the results last year.  Look if you aren't making things better with a change, then it's not a good change.  And it hasn't been growing pains learning the Offense, it's that it is that the guy comes off a clueless as to what actually works well and what doesn't.  News flash - not much is working well.

 

The problem in the two prior games (not including yesterday) was that the pass rush up the middle was completely disruptive and there were no escape routes because the blocking outside wasn't much better.  They could have gone to more spread shotgun sets to counter the tactic of bringing 5 guys almost every play (this is how the spread offenses and hurry up developed after teams were blitzing relentlessly with success), but they continued to run the same stuff out of the same formations with the same amount of success until the defenses backed off and the games were out of reach.

Edited November 20, 2017 by Ayjent

[Figster]

24 minutes ago, Ayjent said:

The QB in the pocket is not even close to the whole problem with the scheme.  It's the run blocking, the situational playcalling, the lack of adjustments, the personnel starting on the right side of the line, etc. 

 

However, to your point.  Can Taylor be effective when the scheme highlights his strengths?  The answer is yes.  When teams try to force him to stay in the pocket that is one thing, but when your OC forces him to do it, doesn't that benefit the defense?   It's not like Dennison doesn't have a blueprint for what works and a lot of resources in the players that ran that scheme last year.  He clearly only wants to run his Offense and thinks it is superior, regardless of the results last year.  Look if you aren't making things better with a change, then it's not a good change.  And it hasn't been growing pains learning the Offense, it's that it is that the guy comes off a clueless as to what actually works well and what doesn't.  News flash - not much is working well.

 

The problem in the two prior games (not including yesterday) was that the pass rush up the middle was completely disruptive and there were no escape routes because the blocking outside wasn't much better.  They could have gone to more spread shotgun sets to counter the tactic of bringing 5 guys almost every play (this is how the spread offenses and hurry up developed after teams were blitzing relentlessly with success), but they continued to run the same stuff out of the same formations with the same amount of success until the defenses backed off and the games were out of reach.

thanks for the reply/good posting

[Luka]

40 minutes ago, Ayjent said:

The QB in the pocket is not even close to the whole problem with the scheme.  It's the run blocking, the situational playcalling, the lack of adjustments, the personnel starting on the right side of the line, etc. 

 

However, to your point.  Can Taylor be effective when the scheme highlights his strengths?  The answer is yes.  When teams try to force him to stay in the pocket that is one thing, but when your OC forces him to do it, doesn't that benefit the defense?   It's not like Dennison doesn't have a blueprint for what works and a lot of resources in the players that ran that scheme last year.  He clearly only wants to run his Offense and thinks it is superior, regardless of the results last year.  Look if you aren't making things better with a change, then it's not a good change.  And it hasn't been growing pains learning the Offense, it's that it is that the guy comes off a clueless as to what actually works well and what doesn't.  News flash - not much is working well.

 

The problem in the two prior games (not including yesterday) was that the pass rush up the middle was completely disruptive and there were no escape routes because the blocking outside wasn't much better.  They could have gone to more spread shotgun sets to counter the tactic of bringing 5 guys almost every play (this is how the spread offenses and hurry up developed after teams were blitzing relentlessly with success), but they continued to run the same stuff out of the same formations with the same amount of success until the defenses backed off and the games were out of reach.

 

His strengths are running, running and... running? We need a QB that can actually throw the football. We do realize that is the main function of a QB, don't we?

To remake this offense to his strengths we'd be playing 1 read option or the wishbone. Dennison and McDermott do have one understanding and that is this is the NFL. If you want to win and win consistently, you have to able to throw the football. This should not be a secret to anyone. Not even the most pessimistic Peterman hater here could have predicted 5 picks in the 1st half of his first game. But the move still makes sense, at least to me. I've said it since the beginning of the year. Give Peterman a chance not because you think he's Jim Kelly, but because you know what Tyrod is. They traded all these guys that were here before to build the capital to draft a QB. And you have to know what you have before you know what you need.

You go on to talk about a quick passing game... Tyrod CAN'T OPERATE a quick passing game.

 

Yes the line sucks and the playcalling might suck (although if you watch some all 22 it's pretty evident the route combinations work, guys come open and then?) but the biggest problem is still QB.

[Elite Poster]

16 hours ago, jaclynrea21 said:

yeah then the next coach comes in and it's three years after that making it 23 years of crap football.I wish Trump bought the team

 

You know he would've moved the Bills to Vegas faster than he gets that orange spray tan every morning?

[Shaw66]

55 minutes ago, Ayjent said:

The QB in the pocket is not even close to the whole problem with the scheme.  It's the run blocking, the situational playcalling, the lack of adjustments, the personnel starting on the right side of the line, etc. 

 

However, to your point.  Can Taylor be effective when the scheme highlights his strengths?  The answer is yes.  When teams try to force him to stay in the pocket that is one thing, but when your OC forces him to do it, doesn't that benefit the defense?   It's not like Dennison doesn't have a blueprint for what works and a lot of resources in the players that ran that scheme last year.  He clearly only wants to run his Offense and thinks it is superior, regardless of the results last year.  Look if you aren't making things better with a change, then it's not a good change.  And it hasn't been growing pains learning the Offense, it's that it is that the guy comes off a clueless as to what actually works well and what doesn't.  News flash - not much is working well.

 

The problem in the two prior games (not including yesterday) was that the pass rush up the middle was completely disruptive and there were no escape routes because the blocking outside wasn't much better.  They could have gone to more spread shotgun sets to counter the tactic of bringing 5 guys almost every play (this is how the spread offenses and hurry up developed after teams were blitzing relentlessly with success), but they continued to run the same stuff out of the same formations with the same amount of success until the defenses backed off and the games were out of reach.

I have to agree with this, particularly the bold.   

 

I've been saying for weeks that Taylor should take deep drops and stay behind the entire rush, not step into the pocket.  When the entire rush is in front of him he can escape backward and then use his speed to get outside the ends.  Wilson and Brees escape backward a lot. 

[Elite Poster]

Man did anyone listen to the interview he just did on WGR? 

 

It was EMBARRASSING!

 

He said we did a lot of good things yesterday, especially on defense. This guy is lost, blind, delusional. I'm at a loss for words on the state of this team. We are below the Browns.

[Happy]

12 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I have to agree with this, particularly the bold.   

 

I've been saying for weeks that Taylor should take deep drops and stay behind the entire rush, not step into the pocket.  When the entire rush is in front of him he can escape backward and then use his speed to get outside the ends.  Wilson and Brees escape backward a lot. 

Yeah, you said this last week and mentioned that what the Saints do with Brees is a good model for what the Bills should do with Tyrod; it is a very good point.  But I unfortunately do not see it happening due to the fact that Dennison is way too rigid in his offensive (in more ways than one) philosophy.  Tyrod will probably be gone next year.

[Buffalo Bills Fan]

20 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I have to agree with this, particularly the bold.   

 

I've been saying for weeks that Taylor should take deep drops and stay behind the entire rush, not step into the pocket.  When the entire rush is in front of him he can escape backward and then use his speed to get outside the ends.  Wilson and Brees escape backward a lot. 

 

I hated Dennison (as OC) since preseason saw trouble from then. Hoped it changed but nope. He got to go

13 minutes ago, Elite Poster said:

Man did anyone listen to the interview he just did on WGR? 

 

It was EMBARRASSING!

 

He said we did a lot of good things yesterday, especially on defense. This guy is lost, blind, delusional. I'm at a loss for words on the state of this team. We are below the Browns.

 

After all the off season trade. I saw it coming hoping it was all wrong during season.....

[D. L. Hot-Flamethrower]

17 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

The Rockpile Review – by Shaw66

 

Ramblings of a Madman

 

A clever writer could produce a great faux Edgar Allan Poe short story about a man who gradually loses his mind watching the Buffalo Bills for too long.  What’s “too long”?  Well, lately, “too long” might be five minutes.  For the deep-seated, complex psychosis of a Poe protagonist, it takes 30 years or more. 

 

I won’t write the story, at least not today.  However, if what follows seems incoherent, inconsistent, out of touch with reality, okay, flat out insane, well, it’s because I suffer the kind of madness that can come from over-exposure to the Buffalo Bills.

 

I drank the Sean McDermott Kool-Aid.  Looking back a few months, I see now that I was so desperate for the Bills finally to get it right, I was ready to believe in anyone.  I was ready to believe Al Franken would take us to the Super Bowl.  So I drank the Kool Aid, and it hasn’t flushed through my system.  I still believe. 

 

Why do I still believe?   I don’t know.  I can’t explain it.  Having watched most of the first half of the latest Bills disaster, a 54-24 drubbing at the hands of the Los Angeles Chargers (I missed Nathan Peterman’s first two interceptions), any rational person would not, could not believe that Sean McDermott could lead anyone to the Super Bowl, even if he were an Uber driver using Google maps.  

 

The man actually said that he believed that Nathan Peterman gave the Bills the best chance to win.  How could a man who has spent every day of his adult life studying football and every day for the last six months watching Nathan Peterman not see that, at least right now, Nathan Peterman couldn’t possibly be the best option?  And yet, I still believe.  Call me crazy.  

 

I can tell you what makes me believe, but I can’t expect you to think I’m sane.  I believe there is a process, and the process will work.  McDermott is a student, and he’s been studying how to do this for a long time.  He’s smart, he’s determined, and he isn’t a quitter.  He will push the process.

 

Beane is cut from the same cloth.  They will add talent and mold the talent to fit their systems. 

 

I believe that McDedrmott can lead, that men will follow him.  Maybe not these men.  There has to be more than one man on that team today who is wondering what he got himself into as he watches the total implosion of the team and the bewilderingly bad decision to start Peterman.  It may be that McDermott needs new men, different men, men who haven’t lived through the past three weeks. 

 

Those different men are coming.  In July it didn’t look like this team was being rebuilt, but it’s inevitable now.  The list of players who have left is long, and retiring and departing free agents will make it longer.   Now, with the Peterman fiasco, McDermott has orchestrated the inevitable departure of Tyrod Taylor.

 

Brandon Beane had a feasible route going forward: build a team around Taylor, replacing him when the opportunity arose.  Maybe get an offensive coordinator willing to play to Taylor’s strengths (now that everything is lost, Dennison finally started calling Taylor’s number in the second half, letting him move behind the line of scrimmage and run the ball).  Use all of those draft picks to build an offensive line and a defensive line.  Take some time to find the next quarterback. 

 

That’s all out the window now.  Taylor will leave as soon as possible.   Why would he stay?  McDermott and Dennison have so little faith in Taylor’s talents that they actually believed Peterman was better.  Can you imagine McDermott going to Taylor, hat in hand, saying “I made a mistake.  You’re my man from now on.”?  Taylor’s response?  “See ya!”

 

So it’s a total rebuild.  Unless Peterman has a miraculous turnaround, the Bills need a quarterback right now.  There no longer is any reason to pay McCoy, and there’s no reason McCoy would want to stay.  There’s no reason for Incognito to want to stay.  Matthews has been a forgotten man since he got to Buffalo.  Kyle will retire.

 

I give McDermott credit.  He has guts.  He had the guts to make the Peterman move, and he had the guts to bench him after a disastrous half.  I can believe in a guy with courage like that.  McDermott has made a mess for himself to clean up.

 

Fun fact:  Nick O’Leary is Fuzzy Zoeller’s bocce partner.

 

The game was lost by halftime.  And the outcome wouldn’t have been different if Taylor had started, because for the third straight week the Bills defense failed to show up.  (It’s becoming clear that the Bills just don’t have a defense.)  But Taylor showed what he is: a professional quarterback.  He played under control, he threw well, he ran well, he threw no interceptions.  Once he stayed in the pocket too long and fumbled when hit; otherwise, he scrambled well and got some things done. 

 

When the Bills got down to the goal line, when Taylor couldn’t run it in and when McCoy couldn’t, when Clay took a penalty and then dropped a touchdown pass, Taylor still hung in and threw it to McCoy for the score.  Two professionals, doing their jobs. 

 

Call me crazy, but I like McDermott.  He and Beane got rid of Watkins, got rid of Darby, let Woods go and Gilmore go, got rid of Dareus.  And now they have, seemingly nothing.  By all rights, Terry Pegula should hold a press conference on Wednesday and announce that he’s decided that Al Franken gives the Bills the best chance to win and ship McDermott out.   

 

But I believe the Pegulas believe in McDermott, too.  They believe they have to give McDermott and Beane the time to implement their process.  They believe, I suppose, starting Peterman was just a mistake that the coaches and the team will move on from.

I’m not ready to chain someone to the wall in the basement and brick up the doorway, but, man, watching this stuff can drive a man crazy. 

 

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

The Rockpile Review is written to share the passion we have for the Buffalo Bills. That passion was born in the Rockpile; its parents were everyday people of western New York who translated their dedication to a full day’s hard work and simple pleasures into love for a pro football team.

Another quality post. Thanks! I have been a fan since 1973 when I was 10. I have seen alot of Bills games  over the years as you have. I appreciate your optimism as that is usually me. Disappointed is mild, I'm depressed that we are so far away. It seemed like 2-3 years ago we might be headed in the right direction. Now it's obviously clear to me it is not. 

 

A couple points. Watching the beginning of the game it was apparent to me that this team just wasn't strong enough to support a rookie QB like Peterman. I mean the tipped passes, holdings, false starts, drops, missed blocks and crummy defense bear this out. Not to mention special teams failing to do anything to help.

 

I thought for sure the game plan would not be what it ended up being. It should have been run the ball and attempt short quick passes early and attempt to control the ball. Another example in my mind of not supporting NP.

 

Finally, there has been some quit in this defense the last 3 weeks, reminiscient of REX d last year. And, it thoroughly pisses me off that this is the case. I figured at least McDermott could get them to play hard for 60 minutes once in the last 3 weeks.

 

Cheers Shaw

[Shaw66]

The last three games have been such devastating losses that i couldn't think clearly about the team last night when I was writing the OP.   Really.   I didn't have the energy or mental focus or heart to spend time thinking or writing about what's actually wrong.   And, of course, all kinds of things are wrong.  

 

Thanks to everyone who's posted here with actual substantive comments about the team.  

 

Here are some thoughts now that my head has cleared a bit:

 

I think that the team is badly short of talent, and its best talent is old - McCoy, Incognito, Kyle.  

 

I think McDermott brought new energy and a great message that the team bought into, and the energized mentality that McDermott created masked the team's weaknesses during the early part of the season.   They won with energy, emotion and execution.   Then as teams got a chance to see film of the regular season Bills, they figured out the weaknesses and began exploiting them.   Energy and emotion only go so far; if you're short of talent, when the opposition knows what you're going to do, you're in trouble.   That's what happened to the Bills.

 

Then, to compound the problem, the one dominant athlete the Bills had on the defensive front seven, Dareus, got traded.   Williams is past his prime and never demands double teams.   Hughes is a good complementary player - that is, when the rest of the Dline is good, he is able to make plays, but he isn't a significant disruptor on his own.   Yes, Dareus wasn't playing every down, but he WAS playing enough to be a presence, and he WAS demanding double teams.  

 

Then, as others have said, the Bills have weak linebackers.   Brown is too slow to play the middle the way McDermott's defense demands.  Homber and Alexander simply aren't very good in pass coverage.  Combined, they leave lots of open space in the underneath zones.  It took teams a few weeks to figure it out, but for the past few weeks the Bills have given up easy completions repeatedly in that area.    They struggle in run defense, in part because the offensive linemen aren't double teaming any defensive linemen, so blockers can get to the second level and handle the linebackers.   So the linebackers know they have to get up to stop the run, and that makes them vulnerable to play action, exacerbating their problems in pass defense.   

 

The Bills are equally challenged on the offensive line.   Wood is average, RIchie does a good job, Glenn is the best of a weak group, but he isn't on the field enough.  The right side is still a problem.   Collectively, they aren't getting the job done in the run or in pass protection. 

 

The coaching also hasn't helped.   Ayjent describes it well.   Dennison has taken a reasonably effective 2016 offense and restructured it.  The blocking schemes aren't as effective as last season.   The pass protection is worse.   And Taylor has been asked to play a game that deemphasizes his strengths and exposes his weaknesses.  The guy has a really good arm, he's pretty accurate.   He can run, he can scramble, and he can throw on the run.   

 

Add it all up, and you've got a mess.   It means the Bills need some defensive linemen, some linebackers, some offensive linemen and a new quarterback who can play the system Dennison (and McDermott) want to play.   That's a lot of new talent they have to add.   They could get a new offensive coordinator, and maybe they should, but to what end?   To resurrect Taylor?  Sure, you redesign your offense when you have a Peyton Manning but although Taylor can be a serviceable QB, he's no Manning.   Plus, McDermott now has told Taylor he isn't the QB McD wants, and that probably makes a long-term McD-Taylor relationship untenable.  

 

That's what I see, and I don't like how it looks.  

[Ayjent]

5 hours ago, Luka said:

 

His strengths are running, running and... running? We need a QB that can actually throw the football. We do realize that is the main function of a QB, don't we?

To remake this offense to his strengths we'd be playing 1 read option or the wishbone. Dennison and McDermott do have one understanding and that is this is the NFL. If you want to win and win consistently, you have to able to throw the football. This should not be a secret to anyone. Not even the most pessimistic Peterman hater here could have predicted 5 picks in the 1st half of his first game. But the move still makes sense, at least to me. I've said it since the beginning of the year. Give Peterman a chance not because you think he's Jim Kelly, but because you know what Tyrod is. They traded all these guys that were here before to build the capital to draft a QB. And you have to know what you have before you know what you need.

You go on to talk about a quick passing game... Tyrod CAN'T OPERATE a quick passing game.

 

Yes the line sucks and the playcalling might suck (although if you watch some all 22 it's pretty evident the route combinations work, guys come open and then?) but the biggest problem is still QB.

I’ve got no dog in the hunt as to the QB, but I’m clearly pointing out that to put the offensive ineptitude on Taylor is completely misplaced, when the line is getting abused repeatedly and the offensive coordinator has no counter, schematically or personnel wise.  I like what Taylor can do by buying time and making plays with both his arm and his feet, but I also think the team could improve at that position.  He has limitations, but he’s a lot better than the Bills have had in a long time and the offense before Dennison was pretty capable by Bills standards.  I just think they need to be sure that they have that guy before they get rid of Tyrod or this could get real ugly. I’ve seen them move on too quick without stability and certainty in that position and it never works out.  

 

Also, never said that the Bills should go to a quick passing game, I said they should go to a spread alignment.  The reason is to give him more time to asses the rush.

 

Thinking a 5th round pick that isn’t nearly as mobile as Taylor was going to have success with a pass focused game plan against a good pass rushing team was ludicrous with the way the line had been playing, especially with no mix up on the line.

 

And although McDermott is taking the credit for the bad decision, you have to wonder what the hell is going on.  To me it was I’ll timed because there are consequences to this thing blowing up while you are still in the hunt,and it was already a hot mess coming in.  And maybe it was a desperate move rather than a measured one -  certainly looks that way to me.  

Edited November 21, 2017 by Ayjent

[Figster]

1 minute ago, Ayjent said:

I’ve got no dog in the hunt as to the QB, but I’m clearly pointing out that to put the offensive ineptitude on Taylor is completely misplaced, when the line is getting abused repeatedly and the offensive coordinator has no counter, schematically or personnel wise.  I like what Taylor can do by buying time and making plays with both his arm and his feet, but I also think the team could improve at that position.  He has limitations, but he’s a lot better than the Bills have had in a long time and the offense before Dennison was pretty capable by Bills standards.  I just think they need to be sure that they have that guy before they get rid of Tyrod or this could get real ugly. I’ve seen them move on too quick without stability and certainty and it never works out.  

 

Also, never said that the Bills should go to a quick passing game, I said they should go to a spread alignment.  The reason is to give him more time to asses the rush.

 

Thinking a 5th round pick that isn’t nearly as mobile as Taylor was going to have success with a pass focused game plan against a good pass rushing team was ludicrous with the way the line had been playing, especially with no mix up on the line.

 

And although McDermott is taking the credit for the bad decision, you have to wonder what the hell is going on.  To me it was I’ll timed because there are consequences to this thing blowing up while you are still in the hunt,and it was already a hot mess coming in.  And maybe it was a desperate move rather than a measured one -  certainly looks that way to me.  

You accomplished two things IMO, evaluated Peterman when games still mean something and told Taylor checking down when its 4th and forever doesn't get the job done. Now Buffalo can go into the next draft with no holding back.

 

It was a very cold and calculated  move in my humble opinion.

 

Someone had to do it...

[Ayjent]

14 minutes ago, Figster said:

You accomplished two things IMO, evaluated Peterman when games still mean something and told Taylor checking down when its 4th and forever doesn't get the job done. Now Buffalo can go into the next draft with no holding back.

 

It was a very cold and calculated  move in my humble opinion.

 

Someone had to do it...

How did you evaluate Peterman?  Seriously...if that's the kind of situation this team is going to put players in to evaluate them, I feel really bad for the players.  He looked like hot garbage, but there are few QBs that could have commanded a decent offensive performance with that blocking and gameplan.  Again, I don't care who the QB is as long as the Bills win, but that was a really bad time (when your line has been a sieve the past two games) and really poor way to evaluate a rookie QB.  I guess you can rationalize this as ballsy, commendable coaching and a fair evaluation of a player, but I see it a lot differently.

 

I think it is way more likely that the coaching staff is scrambling and grasping at straws, and it was the equivalent of grabbing a powerline instead of a straw.

 

How are they going to evaluate the next guy and what kind of awful situations are they going to put him - that's what this staff has me seriously questioning after this game, not that they made a cold, calculated move.  It also shows me that if they have adverse circumstances where injuries force them to adjust their schemes they are going to be listless.

Edited November 21, 2017 by Ayjent

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, Figster said:

You accomplished two things IMO, evaluated Peterman when games still mean something and told Taylor checking down when its 4th and forever doesn't get the job done. Now Buffalo can go into the next draft with no holding back.

 

It was a very cold and calculated  move in my humble opinion.

 

Someone had to do it...

 

I'm still trying to wrap my mind around why this is considered to be a Necessary Thing by so many here.

 

Other teams draft QB in the 4-6 round, and it's typically expected that these guys may develop into capable backups in a few years.  Unless they light up the place like a flare during preseason a la DangerRuss Wilson and earn the right to start, or start because of injury, it is not considered necessary to put them into a game that means something in order to evaluate them.   And even then, if you must start them, it's typically expected that you will help them out, focus on the run game and short passes, simplify the scheme for them, be prepared to leave in extra blockers if the line is having a rough day.

 

Suppose he did come in and light the place on fire, then have some up-and-down games the rest of the season -what then?  Do you bank everything on him as "The Man", your new starter?

 

What's the point of this "game that matters" evaluation supposed to be?

 

Edited November 21, 2017 by Hapless Bills Fan

[BadLandsMeanie]

Simply and maybe a bit inaccurately put, I see two possibilities about how they handled Peterman in his first game.

 

A) They are bat **** crazy.

 

B) They were drastically overconfident and enamored by Peterman, and put in a game plan suited for an experienced player.

 

I am hoping it is B.

 

Now McDermott has the problem of either letting Peterman stew on that as his first professional outing for the next  year or two or three, or he can put him in again with a plan that some chance of success and hope he gets some positive experiences so that McDermott and his staff have not potentially ruined him completely.

 

I would love to see film of this game to try and see what has happened to the defense but so far I haven't come across any.

[Captain Murica]

The browns call their stadium the factory of sadness, so, can we call ours The New Era of Misery? 

[Happy]

2 hours ago, Ayjent said:

Also, never said that the Bills should go to a quick passing game, I said they should go to a spread alignment.  The reason is to give him more time to asses the rush.

 

Bolded part of your post is spot on if Taylor is the QB, since this type of offense is his strength.  Don't give Tyrod a pocket, let him move around behind the line as needed and create plays.  But all this, I fear, is for not because of the rigid philosophy of Dennison...he won't allow it to come to fruition since this is not the type of offense he knows.

[Figster]

2 hours ago, Ayjent said:

How did you evaluate Peterman?  Seriously...if that's the kind of situation this team is going to put players in to evaluate them, I feel really bad for the players.  He looked like hot garbage, but there are few QBs that could have commanded a decent offensive performance with that blocking and gameplan.  Again, I don't care who the QB is as long as the Bills win, but that was a really bad time (when your line has been a sieve the past two games) and really poor way to evaluate a rookie QB.  I guess you can rationalize this as ballsy, commendable coaching and a fair evaluation of a player, but I see it a lot differently.

 

I think it is way more likely that the coaching staff is scrambling and grasping at straws, and it was the equivalent of grabbing a powerline instead of a straw.

 

How are they going to evaluate the next guy and what kind of awful situations are they going to put him - that's what this staff has me seriously questioning after this game, not that they made a cold, calculated move.  It also shows me that if they have adverse circumstances where injuries force them to adjust their schemes they are going to be listless.

 5th round draft choices don't get many chances early on under normal circumstances. Taylor had to wait for years.

 

So I wouldn't feel to bad for the most NFL ready Peterman because he's not and Buffalo knows that now.

 

Nate Peterman should be grateful for the opportunity in my humble opinion.

 

Perhaps he learned something from it and won't stink the place up so bad next time...

Edited November 21, 2017 by Figster

[JoPar_v2]

Oh look, you’re LAMP didn’t get merged. Happy?

[Figster]

2 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I'm still trying to wrap my mind around why this is considered to be a Necessary Thing by so many here.

 

Other teams draft QB in the 4-6 round, and it's typically expected that these guys may develop into capable backups in a few years.  Unless they light up the place like a flare during preseason a la DangerRuss Wilson and earn the right to start, or start because of injury, it is not considered necessary to put them into a game that means something in order to evaluate them.   And even then, if you must start them, it's typically expected that you will help them out, focus on the run game and short passes, simplify the scheme for them, be prepared to leave in extra blockers if the line is having a rough day.

 

Suppose he did come in and light the place on fire, then have some up-and-down games the rest of the season -what then?  Do you bank everything on him as "The Man", your new starter?

 

What's the point of this "game that matters" evaluation supposed to be?

 

vs a meaningless game when you have to wonder how well the supporting cast is playing.

 

  I'm wondering that anyway...

[Hapless Bills Fan]

8 hours ago, BadLandsMeanie said:

Simply and maybe a bit inaccurately put, I see two possibilities about how they handled Peterman in his first game.

 

A) They are bat **** crazy.

 

B) They were drastically overconfident and enamored by Peterman, and put in a game plan suited for an experienced player.

 

I am hoping it is B.

 

Now McDermott has the problem of either letting Peterman stew on that as his first professional outing for the next  year or two or three, or he can put him in again with a plan that some chance of success and hope he gets some positive experiences so that McDermott and his staff have not potentially ruined him completely.

 

I would love to see film of this game to try and see what has happened to the defense but so far I haven't come across any.

 

Hmmm, some might say B) would be a reasonable working definition of what A) means

22 hours ago, clayboy54 said:

Interesting corollary in a little story I want to share with you. When I played hockey (I was too small to play football), I was the walk-on, 3rd team goaltender, and never suited up for games. The starter, and some of our "stars" was often late to practice, didn't take practice seriously, and he didn't take heed to coach's warnings. We had a huge game coming up and everything seemed status quo. In the locker room before the game coach came in and said he was going to start me. You could hear a pin drop in the room. I started, and played the 1st period. I let in a soft goal in the final minute of the period. At the start of the 2nd period, the "stars" were back in their respective positions. They played well, and never took practices lightly again. The following year, we went to the Frozen Four. Coach built a helluva team with that statement.

 

It has been written that coach Dennison instructed Tyrod to "open it up" the previous game (or two). He clearly didn't. He didn't target Benjamin often enough, and he didn't throw downfield. as instructed. For whatever reason, he defied coach's directions. He got "sat down." The results are now in the books, but the message is clear.

 

When I played that 1st period, I definitely didn't give the team the best chance to win. But when the starter came in, he was a changed man. Neither did Nate Peterman give the team the best chance to win. But, did you see Tyrod checking down and looking indecisive when he came in for the 2nd half? No. He pushed the ball downfield and looked good doing it. In short, there is no chance the message wasn't received loud and clear by the team. We'll see whether that equates to performance improvements in the coming weeks.

 

Based on my personal experiences, I appreciate the coaching style. I have a lot of respect for this style of coaching. It worked on my team, and it may start something here. It also explains a lot of the moves this team has made in 2017. I ask that you look at this in this context and give it a chance. This technique actually works with talented athletes.

 

I agree with Shaw. I have a lot of belief in this GM and HC.

 

If it was a "message", "play as you're asked or play Left Bench", then I would feel better about it as actually making sense.

Although, by all reports, Taylor is first in/last out and takes preparations of all sorts seriously.

[BadLandsMeanie]

9 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Hmmm, some might say B) would be a reasonable working definition of what A) means

 

 

Bravo!

[Hapless Bills Fan]

On 11/19/2017 at 11:14 PM, Maine-iac said:

I think they made a few moves too many, at least for this season.  Every move right up until trading Dareus seemed almost genius but they went to the well one too many times.  Dareus left and the defense left with him.  No defense means the games aren't even close.

 

Agreed.  People can argue all they like about how Dareus didn't play enough to make a difference.  I put the facts out there: the Oakland game (Oak has little run game and none apart from ML) is an anomaly.  Otherwise it can be seen that the run game was more porous when MD was out earlier in the season, and vastly more porous since he left; and that contrary to popular report that he was only playing 1/3 of snaps, in several games it was closer to 2/3.  Then look at Jax run D since Dareus showed up. 

If you really want to tank, you start at the very beginning.  I think all signs point to they genuinely are trying to win as much as they can this year, and either these guys didn't realize what Mr Big Stuff was doing for the D (they see better film, they'd be stupid), or, Mr Big Stuff got up to some shenanigans which led them to say "I don't care who you are and what you do on the field, You're Out and we'll deal with the consequences".  But you know, then...Deal.  Make changes to your scheme.  Adapt.  Use the players you have.
 

On 11/19/2017 at 11:14 PM, Maine-iac said:

When was the last great Dennison QB, maybe Schaub in Houston 2012?  I think it got good and then it got out of control and maybe it's all a little bigger than McDemott can handle right now.

 

Schaub (whom long timers know I regarded as an under-rated QB in his prime) had Kubiak for 3 years and Kyle Shanahan for 2 before Dennison moved from Denver in 2010.

I don't think Dennison had much to do with developing Schaub, who had his best career in 2009.

16 minutes ago, BadLandsMeanie said:

Bravo!

 

Thanks. 

 

If you're moderately organized or better, you can get a week's free trial of NFL Gamepass and watch the game (condensed and all-22 should be up today).

Then cancel.

6 hours ago, Figster said:

vs a meaningless game when you have to wonder how well the supporting cast is playing.

 

 I'm wondering that anyway...

 

No, vs letting him do the typical late round rookie development path: barring injury, let him practice at half speed and watch game film for a year and support the starter on the bench.  If there's injury, support him with a simple, run-heavy game plan that doesn't ask too much of him, give the OL extra help, and hope for the best.  Give him a meaningless game if relevant, and see how he does at 3/4 speed.

 

If he starts really lighting it up in preseason and is within spitting distance of or outplays the starter, then consider giving him a meaningful start.  But while Peterman did some good things in preseason, he was no Russ Wilson "gotta play me" kid.

 

You don't develop a QB by throwing him into the fire in a meaningful regular season game with a gameplan designed for a seasoned QB.  No useful purpose is served.   Unless, as someone here speculated, the whole point was as a close-aimed shot across Taylor's bows: throw it, or spend the rest of the season holding a clipboard and watching the Peterman debacle.

Edited November 21, 2017 by Hapless Bills Fan

[Richard Noggin]

In my twenties, when the drought was just getting underway, I used to play a drinking game to keep things interesting. Take a shot for every time the Bills get scored on and every time they turn the ball over. Kind of like solidarity with the team. Then, in 2007, I think, against the Patsies, I went half blind.

 

I'm strongly considering bringing back this drinking game, as a way to punish myself for being a fan. Now, nearly 40, it will be sadder, and the next day will be much, much worse. I'll feel something like Kyle Williams must feel after getting beat up for 60 minutes, surrounded by back-ups and scrubs. Like an honorary member of this hot mess.

[BadLandsMeanie]

10 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

 

 

 

If you're moderately organized or better, you can get a week's free trial of NFL Gamepass and watch the game (condensed and all-22 should be up today).

Then cancel.

 

 

Hey great. I can do it! I will mark my calendar so I dint forget to cancel.

 

 

It is bittersweet that I am doing it to see what on earth has gone so wrong. Something is very wrong. More wrong than it should be. It is like the defense have been denied even their physical bodies. They can't even just simply get in the way. They should be able to do better just by having bodies, and being randomly in the way. 

 

LIke, we could give the defense all smartphones and have them text while walking around out there. They would be sure to bump into someone.

 

Anyway thank you I will take a look. 

 

 

5 minutes ago, Richard Noggin said:

In my twenties, when the drought was just getting underway, I used to play a drinking game to keep things interesting. Take a shot for every time the Bills get scored on and every time they turn the ball over. Kind of like solidarity with the team. Then, in 2007, I think, against the Patsies, I went half blind.

 

I'm strongly considering bringing back this drinking game, as a way to punish myself for being a fan. Now, nearly 40, it will be sadder, and the next day will be much, much worse. I'll feel something like Kyle Williams must feel after getting beat up for 60 minutes, surrounded by back-ups and scrubs. Like an honorary member of this hot mess.

You should sober up. 

 

You can do AA or you could only drink when the Bills score a passing touchdown, or win a game.

[mead107]

To the pit of misery.  Dilly Dilly 

[Straight Hucklebuck]

I am glad you have admitted it Shaw. 

 

Fans backed Nix when he hired Gailey. I saw a guy who was out of football when the Bills called.

 

Fans loved the Doug Marrone hire, believed Russ Brandon when he said he was "dynamic". I saw a 5-day joke of a "no stone unturned" search for a Coach. Couldn't stand him from the first few sentences I heard him speak. Remember the "I'm one of you guys" talk with all the New York pride?

 

Now I thought Pettine would have been a better HC, but you see how the Browns have done since him. I also thought Rex would have built the Bills defense into a hardened unit. I was always concerned about Rex's simplistic offensive philosophy, and you saw in his two books that he didn't involve himself in offensive meetings.  

 

On to McDermott, first time he was asked to describe his offense - run the ball because its Buffalo. And I don't think there really is anything deeper with him. I don't think his vision is to create a top-flight passing game. I think he thinks he can line up and just run over people (with just one viable RB on the roster).  I think we will suffer for it. The Bills had a chance to draft Deshaun Watson or Patrick Mahomes and they passed for a cornerback. 

 

His Defense is an outdated Tampa-2 that Jauron tried to run 11 years ago here in Buffalo. 

 

McDermott is Mr. Calculating, he always "knows where you're going with that" when you ask him questions. I think we have learned that the rest of the league doesn't care about his vision for this team, or how he plans to get better everyday. They are just punching this paper thin/talentless roster in the face now every week. 

 

I've said for a long time that the Bills FADE every year down the stretch as these games get tougher, and no surprise, they are doing it again. 

 

The question for this regime will be, are they Dick Jauron, believing you can get by with lunchpail guys and reviewing the tape? Or do they actually believe that talent ultimately wins? Because McDermott strikes me so far as a just work harder than everyone else guy. 

 

 

[Bills757]

I still believe McDermott's decision to bench Taylor for Peterman was motivated to take the focus off how terrible the defense has been playing of late.  After Sunday, it's pretty clear to see the primary reason why the offense has sputtered....the Oline play has been horrendous.  Peterman got chewed up and spit out (not his fault) so I'm not quite sure why people are shocked at the results.  

 

McDermott's decision to change QB's (as if that was the real problem) is akin to replacing your point guard in basketball because your team can't rebound worth a darn.  It makes no sense.  It's actually scary that McD actually thought Peterman gave the Bills the best chance to win.  That, to me, is the most worrisome thing about this situation.  

[Straight Hucklebuck]

What I don't understand is the number of fans who clamored for Peterman?

 

He was a 5th Rounder. 

 

Is that really a move that signifies the team believes that he is the "future". 

 

He'd defy the odds if he topped out as a career backup.

 

I never saw him as a real plan at QB. 

 

[Bills757]

Just now, Straight Hucklebuck said:

What I don't understand is the number of fans who clamored for Peterman?

 

He was a 5th Rounder. 

 

Is that really a move that signifies the team believes that he is the "future". 

 

He'd defy the odds if he topped out as a career backup.

 

I never saw him as a real plan at QB. 

 

 

He may be the future somewhere but to put him in that position and for him to have such a bad half was McD's fault and only serves to set him back in his development.  With a guy like Peterman, you get him into game situations where the game is pretty much over (up big or down big).  Let him at least get his feet wet before you throw him to the wolves.  Peterman and McD can talk all they want about how he learned from it and all that, but there's no doubt in my mind that when Peterman goes back on the field, he's gonna be thinking about the five interceptions.  He's gonna be playing tight not wanting to make a mistake.  And that's exactly what you don't want from your QB.  

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

22 hours ago, Figster said:

Players like Marcell Dareus are a cancer to a locker room. Something you can't have from the highest paid player on the team.

McD has the balls to make tough decisions looking into the future long term and I commend him for it.

Like OP, I still Billieve...

 

I think Mario Williams was a locker room cancer.  His own fridge, special treatment in other ways, then started phoning it in.  Rex should of benched his a** and shot him out of town.

 

I didn't see the same from Dareus when he played, and by what accounts have come out, he was well-liked by his fellow players.  Just had trouble getting his a** going in time for meetings and such, a problem with which I sympathize (though were I MD, I would hire a personal assistant to worry about my schedule for me).  I'm not saying he might not have done something we haven't heard about that caused McD to say "that's it, you're outta here", just saying I think the "locker room cancer" story is unsubstantiated.

[Shaw66]

38 minutes ago, mead107 said:

To the pit of misery.  Dilly Dilly 

Dilly Dilly!

[freeagentqb]

17 minutes ago, Bills757 said:

 

He may be the future somewhere but to put him in that position and for him to have such a bad half was McD's fault and only serves to set him back in his development.  With a guy like Peterman, you get him into game situations where the game is pretty much over (up big or down big).  Let him at least get his feet wet before you throw him to the wolves.  Peterman and McD can talk all they want about how he learned from it and all that, but there's no doubt in my mind that when Peterman goes back on the field, he's gonna be thinking about the five interceptions.  He's gonna be playing tight not wanting to make a mistake.  And that's exactly what you don't want from your QB.  

 

Except playing tight is what TT appears to have been doing since he got here. At least to me anyway.   I like Peterman and he looked good while completing his first three passes especially the laser to Kelvin, a pass Tyrod rarely if ever throws.  The first int went off the hands of the fullback and returned for six.  Another int was miscommunication when peterman threw long and the receiver cut out short.  At least one and possibly two were caused when he was hit when throwing.

 

I'd put Peterman in again with a carefully scripted set of initial plays to help his confidence and see if he can be salvaged.