3rdand12 Posted May 29, 2017 Share Posted May 29, 2017 This is a perfectly reasonable stance. Availability is key. But being unavailable isn't the same thing as a player that simply sucks or is a bust. Sammy is an elite receiver, period. The injury issue is a completely separate discussion and as long as people don't conflate the two issues, it's fair. I will agree here. this IS fair. And Kudos to Bill_ the reason was due to his foot, since the 5th year is guaranteed for Injury only. They didn't want 13 mill sitting on IR in 2018. They had said several weeks prior to deadline that they would pick it up if they felt comfortable with the medical. They fact that they ultimately didn't is ominous news on that front, though I still hold out hope for a full recovery as a fan. The chances of full recovery after a 2nd surgery are good, and there are examples of that as others have cited. The fact still remains we don't know what his unique situation is health-wise at this time. Only the team and the doctors, he and his agent, know that. The Bills decision on his option is a bad sign, however. afraid that this is honestly worrisome, if at all true Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sammy Watkins' Rib Posted May 29, 2017 Share Posted May 29, 2017 Except that we actually saw proof with Gilmore. We saw him perform at a top 10 CB level for two seasons. With Watkins it's purely based on flashes. The qualifier with Gilmore is simply putting him in the proper defense. There are multiple qualifiers with Sammy: - needs to be in the right offense - needs to have a quality QB - needs to stay healthy The first two I won't argue as they're very reasonable. But the last one is a big problem. Watkins hasn't stayed healthy even with a lesser workload so I'm not banking on him staying healthy with more targets every game. I'm not saying that it's not possible - especially if his foot is finally fixed (I don't have that info) - and I'm not saying I wouldn't have picked up his option (I would have unless his foot is still in bad shape), but I am saying that his health in your scenario is a huge "if" and that any predictions about how good he can be are dependent on that. There have been some horrible misuses of players over the years. Mostly overpaying guys who don't fit an offense or defense or are underutilized. Mike Wallace in Miami. Great one trick pony - going deep - got paid large to be put in a timing offense with a short to intermediate range QB. Fail. Albert Haynesworth proves his worth as a penetrating 1-gap DL and gets paid a ton by Washington to eat up space as a 2-gap NT. WTF? Rex Ryan gets hired to improve an attacking top 5 defense that plays press zone and proceeds to make them a passive read and react squad with CBs on islands. The list goes on and on. Many situations have been worse than Sammy's, including Gilmore's. Heck, almost everyone on the defense the last two seasons had it worse than Sammy. Agree with some of your points regarding Gilmore and the defenses failures. But I think with regards to Watkins you are greatly under estimating how important the offensive philosophy and QB are for a WR. Is there a greater example in NFL history than Randy Moss in Oakland? And I think we have seen a bit more than just flashes from Watkins. His final six games of the 2015 season he played at a top 10 level if not top 5 for his position. No coincidence, he saw double digit targets in four out of those final six games. Zero double digit targets in the previous games he played in that season. (He was at 5 targets when he left at the half of the Bengals game and only two targets in the Miami game). Yes health is a big concern but I'm actually more worried about his supporting cast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted May 29, 2017 Share Posted May 29, 2017 the only one I think might know on this board is Leroi and he called him "damaged"... another bad sign for him, as much as I want to live in denial because he's my favorite player Leroi has said a lot of nonsense through the years stated as fact too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augie Posted May 29, 2017 Share Posted May 29, 2017 Leroi has said a lot of nonsense through the years stated as fact too Some is scoop, some is....... IMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kemp Posted May 29, 2017 Share Posted May 29, 2017 Surprised to see how many people are terrified to deal a player that can't stay on the playing field. No one is saying to give him away. A team has to be willing to trade anyone if they think they will get the better of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sammy Watkins' Rib Posted May 29, 2017 Share Posted May 29, 2017 Surprised to see how many people are terrified to deal a player that can't stay on the playing field. No one is saying to give him away. A team has to be willing to trade anyone if they think they will get the better of it. Unless we trade him to the Browns, Jets or a similar team he's automatically going to a better situation in terms of a QB and team that will throw the ball to him consistently. Factoring that in, it's not likely that it will appear that we will get the better of it. And worse case we really get shafted if he ends up playing to his top 5 draft status. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kemp Posted May 30, 2017 Share Posted May 30, 2017 Unless we trade him to the Browns, Jets or a similar team he's automatically going to a better situation in terms of a QB and team that will throw the ball to him consistently. Factoring that in, it's not likely that it will appear that we will get the better of it. And worse case we really get shafted if he ends up playing to his top 5 draft status. To me, the worst case scenario is you keep him and he's injured next season and then you drop him and get nothing. The notion that unless he goes to Jets, Cleveland, or a similar team, it's a stupid move makes no sense to me. If you don't think you're getting the better of it, you don't do it. If you think it's a good deal you do it. If the Bills hadn't given up so much for him, it wouldn't even be a big deal to trade him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted May 30, 2017 Share Posted May 30, 2017 Some is scoop, some is....... IMO Well played Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarleyNY Posted May 30, 2017 Share Posted May 30, 2017 (edited) Agree with some of your points regarding Gilmore and the defenses failures. But I think with regards to Watkins you are greatly under estimating how important the offensive philosophy and QB are for a WR. Is there a greater example in NFL history than Randy Moss in Oakland? And I think we have seen a bit more than just flashes from Watkins. His final six games of the 2015 season he played at a top 10 level if not top 5 for his position. No coincidence, he saw double digit targets in four out of those final six games. Zero double digit targets in the previous games he played in that season. (He was at 5 targets when he left at the half of the Bengals game and only two targets in the Miami game). Yes health is a big concern but I'm actually more worried about his supporting cast. I'm not saying that Watkins wasn't held back by the QB situation and the offense we ran. He was. You're right about that. A lot of Bills were held back by Rex and Co. I just don't know if he holds up to the extra physical demands of more targets. That's a concern to me. Julio Jones proved himself before his big payday. Watkins hasn't. It sucks, but I think that's why the team didn't pick up his option. They're moving on from him barring something unprecedented*. I wish they'd have given him the extra year with the option to prove himself, but they didn't. *Almost unprecedented. I couldn't find any players that had their 5th year options declined and were on the same team in season 5. There is one. Mark Ingram. So I'll go with rare, not unprecedented. Edited May 30, 2017 by BarleyNY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted May 30, 2017 Share Posted May 30, 2017 I'm not saying that Watkins wasn't held back by the QB situation and the offense we ran. He was. You're right about that. A lot of Bills were held back by Rex and Co. I just don't know if he holds up to the extra physical demands of more targets. That's a concern to me. Julio Jones proved himself before his big payday. Watkins hasn't. It sucks, but I think that's why the team didn't pick up his option. They're moving on from him barring something unprecedented*. I wish they'd have given him the extra year with the option to prove himself, but they didn't. *Almost unprecedented. I couldn't find any players that had their 5th year options declined and were on the same team in season 5. There is one. Mark Ingram. So I'll go with rare, not unprecedented. I truly believe that Sammy Watkins has Julio Jones type talent....... Sure wish he could stay healthy and put all this stuff to rest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted May 30, 2017 Share Posted May 30, 2017 No one knows the plan with Sammy. The answer is, it depends. He isn't going anywhere this offseason and his future in Buffalo is entirely dependent on this season. If he stays healthy he will be back. If he only plays a few games he will be gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QCity Posted May 30, 2017 Share Posted May 30, 2017 Maybe we finally have a front office that isn't content to let our assets leave without any compensation. We're going to have to overpay to keep him here. He knows he's not going to get a record breaking Nike deal like OBJ just received with our offense. He's not going to get all the accolades, awards, and stats that his peers are getting if he stays here. The odds of his next contract working out in favor of the team over the long haul are pretty low. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted May 30, 2017 Share Posted May 30, 2017 Maybe we finally have a front office that isn't content to let our assets leave without any compensation. We're going to have to overpay to keep him here. He knows he's not going to get a record breaking Nike deal like OBJ just received with our offense. He's not going to get all the accolades, awards, and stats that his peers are getting if he stays here. The odds of his next contract working out in favor of the team over the long haul are pretty low. Not if he's healthy. He's a top 5 talent at WR if healthy (top 10 at worst). As an example he will probably make less than Landry and when healthy is a much more explosive player. Sammy doesn't come with out risk (obviously) but when healthy he will perform to whatever contract he gets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augie Posted May 30, 2017 Share Posted May 30, 2017 Not if he's healthy. He's a top 5 talent at WR if healthy (top 10 at worst). As an example he will probably make less than Landry and when healthy is a much more explosive player. Sammy doesn't come with out risk (obviously) but when healthy he will perform to whatever contract he gets. Agreed, as long as we have the offense and QB to allow him to show it (obviously). I've got my fingers crossed, because I feel he can demonstrate that he is special. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Passepartout Posted May 30, 2017 Share Posted May 30, 2017 He is a top five talent. And really hope he can get his contract situation fixed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliBills92 Posted May 30, 2017 Share Posted May 30, 2017 (edited) Not if he's healthy. He's a top 5 talent at WR if healthy (top 10 at worst). As an example he will probably make less than Landry and when healthy is a much more explosive player. Sammy doesn't come with out risk (obviously) but when healthy he will perform to whatever contract he gets.Talent means nothing its all about production. I'm sure you probably have heard Parcel's famous quote about talent. Edited May 30, 2017 by CaliBills92 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atlbillsfan1975 Posted May 30, 2017 Share Posted May 30, 2017 Why wouldn't they? Besides a select few QB's in this league every player is tradeable under the right circumstance. If the Bills could get another first or 2 seconds and a third , I would do it . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted May 30, 2017 Share Posted May 30, 2017 Talent means nothing its all about production. I'm sure you probably have heard Parcel's famous quote about talent. His per target production ranks with the best in the league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted May 30, 2017 Share Posted May 30, 2017 Yea... If you don't notice how great a player Watkins is when watching a Bills game then you don't know what your watching.This entire thread is loaded with that Buffalo inferiority complex defense mechanism. They try to convince themselves that Watkins isn't that good so that if he leaves people can pretend it isn't that bad. The reality is he's a great player that has had some health issues. He needs to stay on the field but if he does it's a no brainer to have him as a cornerstone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cherrybone Posted May 30, 2017 Share Posted May 30, 2017 I don't usually say this: this post is insane. Thank you. Sammy a head case? And overvalued? Lol. And I'm willing to bet he believe Tyrod is the best QB in the nfl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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