OldTimeAFLGuy Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 ...so the Combine news was all about praising Watson's accuracy and crispness....yet he's low man on the velocity totem pole....now what?............. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 Can a QB throw the long out from the far hash on time. Period. Â Anything under 50 is concerning, there are no two ways about it. For all the talk about poor mechanics in QBs, Watson has issues of his own in that regard and I wonder if his fastball score is related to that. I suspect this will be a focus leading up to his pro day next week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Jokeman Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 It seems to correlate to height for what it's worth. I guess there's some stock in it yet wouldn't use as a be all to end all stat to focus on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffismagic Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 Can a QB throw the long out from the far hash on time. Period. Â Anything under 50 is concerning, there are no two ways about it. For all the talk about poor mechanics in QBs, Watson has issues of his own in that regard and I wonder if his fastball score is related to that. I suspect this will be a focus leading up to his pro day next week. Â It's also why I think Mahomes mechanics gets too much criticism. He has such a ridiculous arm that he can fire the ball faster than guys stepping in to their throws textbook while Mahomes is throwing off his back foot. Â Cardale Jones threw the ball 53 MPH from his knees. That is scary that a QB stepping into his throws can't hit that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 (edited) Throwing too hard and not hard enough means your chance at success are low. throwing somewhere in the middle is good. Not a strong indicator therefore. Â What were Brady and Mannings (either one) speeds? There have been plenty of qbs with rocket arms who succeeded - elway and favre, to name two. Stafford has a rocket, but didn't throw at the combine. Interesting fact about stafford: he was clayton kershaw's catcher for years in youth travel baseball. Edited March 11, 2017 by dave mcbride Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldTimeAFLGuy Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 There have been plenty of qbs with rocket arms who succeeded - elway and favre, to name two. Stafford has a rocket, but didn't throw at the combine. Interesting fact about stafford: he was clayton kershaw's catcher for years in youth travel baseball. Â Â ...not sure if Watson's velocity should be a concern in WNY's mecca of weather, Buffalo.....Modrak downgraded Matt "Hot Tub Boy" Leinart to a 3rd because of arm in Bflo's weather.....then again, Clemson's weather versus USC's may be more unpredictable (I think)........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloRebound Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 The bullpen comparison is terrible. A pitcher isn't graded on his warm ups, he's graded on pitching live or in a game simulation where he would warm up and then pitch as if he was in a real game. His velocity in those two situations should be the same. What's most concerning about a low velocity at the Combine is that there's no reason a QBs mechanics shouldn't be as perfect as that QB is currently capable of. The more common problem is a great velocity at the Combine where there is no pass rush or distraction due to reading a defense/calling audibles/etc., but seeing a worse velocity in game situations due to a player's mechanics breaking down. What is the point of zipping the ball against no defenders? Nobody is gonna tip or intercept the ball. Colt McCoy having the same combine velocity as Joe Flacco tells me all I need to know about the usefulness of measuring combine velocity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldTimeAFLGuy Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 What is the point of zipping the ball against no defenders? Nobody is gonna tip or intercept the ball. Colt McCoy having the same combine velocity as Joe Flacco tells me all I need to know about the usefulness of measuring combine velocity. Â ....thought so bud......QB velocity has about as much critical reference as 40 times......FAR more important intangibles to key in on during assessment versus newsworthy attention getters.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloSol Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 Guess who threw 60 mph on our team...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hemma Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 (edited) Think of the bright side; there is no play in football that is quite as exciting as a pick 6 and at 49 mph, well ... Edited March 11, 2017 by hemma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnBonhamRocks Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 But how big are his hands? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blokestradamus Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 Not reading this entire thread to see if it's been answered yet so....... Â ........who knows how this is measured? I do, just curious if anyone else does, since you're all experts on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan4 Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 Tyrod's was 50mph at the combine IIRC, didn't he have a shoulder injury at the time though? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldTimeAFLGuy Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 Guess who threw 60 mph on our team...... Â ....Marangi???..OR...was it Hamdan???.................. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuoteTheRaven83 Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 Wouldn't touch any of these QB's with a 5000000 foot pole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan4 Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 Not reading this entire thread to see if it's been answered yet so....... Â ........who knows how this is measured? I do, just curious if anyone else does, since you're all experts on it. I think they use a radar gun at the combine, right? Â The combine doesn't use the computer chip in the ball like (I believe) they do for those sports science segments, do they? I thought those computer chips measured the velocity like 3-4mph higher than the radar guns do or something like that... Â I'm not sure though... I'm no expert, that much I do know. lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mannc Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 Wouldn't touch any of these QB's with a 5000000 foot pole.Thanks. Another highly insightful observation. And as usual, supported by compelling evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blokestradamus Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 I think they use a radar gun at the combine, right?  The combine doesn't use the computer chip in the ball like (I believe) they do for those sports science segments, do they? I thought those computer chips measured the velocity like 3-4mph higher than the radar guns do or something like that...  I'm not sure though... I'm no expert, that much I do know. lol  Well, yeah, you're right about what you said. It's done by radar. There is also a margin for error with both measurements, I believe.  More of what I was getting at was that it's not a terminal velocity measurement or a release point one. It's measured at 30 yards so it's only a sign of what velocity they generate at a certain fixed point. Not every throw is travelling that far in the air so it's not really a damning thing in itself. It can be for deep passing but it's not exactly a death nail measurement and arm strength can be worked on through physical and technical maturation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BADOLBILZ Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 Not reading this entire thread to see if it's been answered yet so....... Â ........who knows how this is measured? I do, just curious if anyone else does, since you're all experts on it. Â Radar gun. Â In baseball here in the states the game is really all about the speed of the ball.........the speed of incoming pitches......the speed of batted balls........that sport is all about reaction times. Â Don't they do that in cricket? I'd figure they would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mannc Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 Â Well, yeah, you're right about what you said. It's done by radar. There is also a margin for error with both measurements, I believe. Â More of what I was getting at was that it's not a terminal velocity measurement or a release point one. It's measured at 30 yards so it's only a sign of what velocity they generate at a certain fixed point. Not every throw is travelling that far in the air so it's not really a damning thing in itself. It can be for deep passing but it's not exactly a death nail measurement and arm strength can be worked on through physical and technical maturation. Maybe so, but the numbers still tell a pretty bleak story for the sub-54 MPH group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BADOLBILZ Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 Â Well, yeah, you're right about what you said. It's done by radar. There is also a margin for error with both measurements, I believe. Â More of what I was getting at was that it's not a terminal velocity measurement or a release point one. It's measured at 30 yards so it's only a sign of what velocity they generate at a certain fixed point. Not every throw is travelling that far in the air so it's not really a damning thing in itself. It can be for deep passing but it's not exactly a death nail measurement and arm strength can be worked on through physical and technical maturation. Â Â If it's all done the same it doesn't really matter........it's all relative. Â In major league baseball the ball typical fastball thrown goes 90-100 mph so 60 mph seems measurable by sand dial by comparison.........it's also why that stat isn't mentioned much in football.......it seems a lot slower than the ball appears to move on television. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blokestradamus Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 Maybe so, but the numbers still tell a pretty bleak story for the sub-54 MPH group. Â It's a piece in the puzzle. Of all the QB's invited to the Combine in any given year, there's probably 10-15 guys depending on class. Odds are that only a couple of them are actually talented enough to play in the NFL. The failure rate is going to be high by nature. Â I don't think there's enough correlation between a failure to meet the threshold and failure to succeed in the NFL to definitely rule someone out on a few particular throws on one given day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jr1 Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 It's a checkdown league why bother even measuring this. 18 rb had 40 catches or more this season Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blokestradamus Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 If it's all done the same it doesn't really matter........it's all relative. Â In major league baseball the ball typical fastball thrown goes 90-100 mph so 60 mph seems measurable by sand dial by comparison.........it's also why that stat isn't mentioned much in football.......it seems a lot slower than the ball appears to move on television. Â I think I'd probably like to see it measured like the 40-yard dash. Incremental points at say 15, 30, 40, 50 yards. Â The comparison I saw was Cody Kessler vs Cam Newton. At 30 yards, they measured quite similar and that almost looks like a false reading. Push that to 40 or 50 yards, you'd start to see a real staggering between those with and those without. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldTimeAFLGuy Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 (edited) Â I think I'd probably like to see it measured like the 40-yard dash. Incremental points at say 15, 30, 40, 50 yards. Â The comparison I saw was Cody Kessler vs Cam Newton. At 30 yards, they measured quite similar and that almost looks like a false reading. Push that to 40 or 50 yards, you'd start to see a real staggering between those with and those without. Â Â ....the 40 is purely one of the most asinine measurements out there....you can count on ONE finger how many times someone gets to run unimpeded for 40 yds in a straight line during the "real deal"...rates right up there with the long jump......" sorry son, but despite catching 137 balls for 1,937 yards and 22 touchdowns in your senior year, your combine measurable in the long jump sucked"...."we are not interested".... Edited March 11, 2017 by OldTimeAFLGuy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted March 12, 2017 Share Posted March 12, 2017 ....the 40 is purely one of the most asinine measurements out there....you can count on ONE finger how many times someone gets to run unimpeded for 40 yds in a straight line during the "real deal"...rates right up there with the long jump......" sorry son, but despite catching 137 balls for 1,937 yards and 22 touchdowns in your senior year, your combine measurable in the long jump sucked"...."we are not interested".... The 40 is useful as a gauge of an athlete's explosion over a certain duration; explosive endurance if you will. Certain performance indicators within that duration also measure certain other potentials, like the split times for instance. While your point is true about the frequency of times a player actually runs a full 40 yard sprint in a game, the test isn't administered for that reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blokestradamus Posted March 12, 2017 Share Posted March 12, 2017 The 40 is useful as a gauge of an athlete's explosion over a certain duration; explosive endurance if you will. Certain performance indicators within that duration also measure certain other potentials, like the split times for instance. While your point is true about the frequency of times a player actually runs a full 40 yard sprint in a game, the test isn't administered for that reason. Â Spot on. Every team has a different threshold for any given test for any given position. Tests are administered to give a baseline level of speed, power, explosion, agility. Justis Mosqueda has written a few things on Ted Thompson's tendencies in Green Bay, particularly for OL recruitment. Myself and @RDotDeuce have looked into some of the baselines for Sean McDermott's defense and you can notice trends based off the collected data. Â Some might not like it but teams measure this stuff for a reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beef Jerky Posted March 12, 2017 Share Posted March 12, 2017 Can someone give me a breakdown of MPH and Wonderlic together? Ohh yeah and I need hand size... No tiny hands here... Hahaha when I typed "tiny hands" the next word to come up in my phone was Glennon for a suggestion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blokestradamus Posted March 12, 2017 Share Posted March 12, 2017 Can someone give me a breakdown of MPH and Wonderlic together? Ohh yeah and I need hand size... No tiny hands here... Hahaha when I typed "tiny hands" the next word to come up in my phone was Glennon for a suggestion.  Joe Marino logged everything from the Combine for FanRag, including hand size  https://www.fanragsports.com/nfl/nfl-scouting-combine-2017-player-measurement-tracker/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beef Jerky Posted March 12, 2017 Share Posted March 12, 2017 Joe Marino logged everything from the Combine for FanRag, including hand size  https://www.fanragsports.com/nfl/nfl-scouting-combine-2017-player-measurement-tracker/ You are the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyC81 Posted March 12, 2017 Share Posted March 12, 2017 It's not the only thing to look at. But if you look at the numbers almost no QB in the NFL has been good that was below 55. I wonder if the 1QB <=53 that was a long term QB was Chad Pennington? Anyone remember if he made a Pro Bowl? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blokestradamus Posted March 12, 2017 Share Posted March 12, 2017 You are the best. Â No Wonderlic on there but everything else you could dream of. My boy Sefo got buckets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted March 12, 2017 Share Posted March 12, 2017 Â Spot on. Every team has a different threshold for any given test for any given position. Tests are administered to give a baseline level of speed, power, explosion, agility. Justis Mosqueda has written a few things on Ted Thompson's tendencies in Green Bay, particularly for OL recruitment. Myself and @RDotDeuce have looked into some of the baselines for Sean McDermott's defense and you can notice trends based off the collected data. Â Some might not like it but teams measure this stuff for a reason. By any chance, do you recall the article from a few years back by a someone who compiled metrics from the combine used to predict success as an edge pass rusher in the NFL? I can't find it anywhere, but that guy was very accurate. Said Hughes was a can't miss pass rusher based on his combination of combine results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blokestradamus Posted March 12, 2017 Share Posted March 12, 2017 (edited) By any chance, do you recall the article from a few years back by a someone who compiled metrics from the combine used to predict success as an edge pass rusher in the NFL? I can't find it anywhere, but that guy was very accurate. Said Hughes was a can't miss pass rusher based on his combination of combine results. Â That was Justis, if I understand you correctly. Force Players ring a bell? Â From last year - http://playmakermentality.com/2016-force-players Edited March 12, 2017 by Blokestradamus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted March 12, 2017 Share Posted March 12, 2017 Â That was Justis, if I understand you correctly. Force Players ring a bell? Â From last year - http://playmakermentality.com/2016-force-players I think that's the guy. The article I'm thinking about was written during Hughes' draft year, though. Perhaps he's refined his "force players" lists over the years. Regardless, the predictive ability of these metrics is interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blokestradamus Posted March 12, 2017 Share Posted March 12, 2017 (edited) I think that's the guy. The article I'm thinking about was written during Hughes' draft year, though. Perhaps he's refined his "force players" lists over the years. Regardless, the predictive ability of these metrics is interesting. Â I had a look and I couldn't find anything of his from Jerry's draft class. I follow him on Twitter so I could ask. I can't remember when he adopted the Force Players name. Â He also has an active spreadsheet grading the 2017 class. I trust my own eyes but if Justis talks pass rushers, I listen. Edited March 12, 2017 by Blokestradamus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beef Jerky Posted March 12, 2017 Share Posted March 12, 2017 I wonder if the 1QB <=53 that was a long term QB was Chad Pennington? Anyone remember if he made a Pro Bowl? Chad was freaking accurate, he knew exactly where to put the ball... Sadly his arm fell off at the shoulder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBillsMagic1 Posted March 12, 2017 Share Posted March 12, 2017 I wonder what velocity Dan Fouts had or Tebow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted March 12, 2017 Share Posted March 12, 2017 Â I had a look and I couldn't find anything of his from Jerry's draft class. I follow him on Twitter so I could ask. I can't remember when he adopted the Force Players name. Â He also has an active spreadsheet grading the 2017 class. I trust my own eyes but if Justis talks pass rushers, I listen. Thanks for checking. I'll be sure to give his articles a read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloSol Posted March 12, 2017 Share Posted March 12, 2017 Â ....Marangi???..OR...was it Hamdan???.................. Lol, it was Logan Thomas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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