In defense of EJ (yeah, I said it!)

[TakeYouToTasker]

I did not realize you have been with the coaches at ravens and bills camp

 

My bad

Is your new argument that I don't know if Tyrod Taylor was exposed to film study, positional coaching, and developmental processes because I'm not a former member of the Raven coaching staff and current member of the Bills coaching staff?

[sfladave]

 

When I think of backup I think of two types of QB's. The first is one that come in and play in a pinch or have a short time to prepare and be ready to play - doesn't try to do too much and manages the game with hopefully few mistakes because of the conservative game plan. The second is someone learning behind the starter and learning - you hope your main guy doesn't go down so that it's not too early.

 

I don't see EJ as either of these types of QB's and I don't see this team needing the second type. In other words he's not the backup this team needs. On this team he should have been 3rd string.

When the Bills names Cassel as the #2 and EJ the #3 I assumed Cassel would be the go to guy if Taylor got hurt in the game and EJ was going to be the starter the next full week if Taylor couldn't return. This is why I didn't have an issue with trading Cassel. I have been a Taylor guy since the beginning of camp but I was encouraged by EJs play in the preseason games.

 

Cassel may not have single handedly killed us today like EJ did and may have even won us this game. However I still wouldn't want Cassel here as opposed to EJ. I'll be pulling whatever hair I have left on my head either way but no way Cassel comes back....err almost comes back from the deep ass hole EJ put himself into. Still more upside for EJ. Let's just hope Tyrod is ready to roll...err run against Miami in 2 weeks!

Edited October 26, 2015 by sfladave

[Billsmovinup]

EJ sucks. Give it a rest.

[todd]

A fumble for TD which is EJ's fault. A pick 6. Another interception that led immediately to a touchdown. There's no defense of EJ. He stinks and should have been cut after the game. He lost the game for the team and fans.

[Keukasmallies]

EJ is terminally inconsistent (Even a blind pig finds an acorn now and then.). He may have the heart, but he certainly doesn't have the tools to proceed through a sixty minute game in the NFL on a regular basis.

 

I hope the Bills' plane stops in Gander to let EJ off.

[ALF]

Cassel had 3 INTs behind a good OL and Dallas lost to the Giants.

 

I can' t trust EJ anymore after watching that 2nd quarter. He can be very good and very bad in same game.

 

Chance a coach can figure out how to eliminate the bad EJ

 

One report speculated the battery in EJ's helmet was dead.

Edited October 26, 2015 by ALF

[mmichii]

EJ is not the answer. Ya he led a comeback but his positively abysmal play created the situation in the first place. EJ is a good guy but he does not possess the tools to succeed in the NFL. All I kept thinking was "hospitality tent" He does not sense pressure. He is completely inaccurate. What about that worm burner he threw to Shady I think on that swing pass. Good franchises don't draft like this nor do they hold on to their mistakes like this. Although Mr Pegula has his heart in the right place hes making the same mistakes he made with the Sabres. He should of cleaned house from top to bottom. He should of hired a football czar to oversee football ops like many of us hoped. At some point Whaley has to be accountable for this mess. Yes hes brought in good talent BUT he drafted and held on to EJ. He wasted 1st round picks to move up to draft an injury prone receiver. He has made critical mistakes that have cost this team dearly in the win loss column. This franchise is a mess why wait around to start fixing it.

[bmur66]

I have never said anything bad about EJ until now. He has removed any doubt that he sucks. He does not see the field and is horribly inaccurate. On the positive side we may have found our backup of the future. As far as him or Cassell I'd say its a tossup.

Edited October 26, 2015 by bmur66

[eball]

Facts:

 

- EJ is not a very good NFL QB right now and may never be, primarily because of inconsistency.

 

- There is no question EJ handed the Jags 14 points directly, and gave them a short field on the 2nd pick. But he didn't allow Yeldon to break several tackles at the line and then run free into the end zone on a 3rd-and-2 play when stopping him would have forced a FG attempt.

 

- After exhibiting perhaps the worst five minutes of QB'ing the league has ever seen, EJ stayed calm and focused and led the Bills to 24 consecutive points -- including two beautiful TD throws and a "heads up" play on the 2-pt conversion attempt to draw a penalty.

 

- Yes, the PI call on Robey was terrible, but it wasn't a TD. A great defense doesn't let Jacksonville score after that.

 

- If Woods reaches out for the 1st down on his last catch we don't see that ridiculous 3rd down play and then the awful play call on 4th.

 

- If anyone cries that Matt Cassel should have been here instead of EJ please review the Dallas/NYG game tape. The Cowboys held the Giants to 289 yards and no passing TDs and LOST. Cassel was intercepted on three consecutive drives to start the 2nd half. Then, on the crucial final possession, Cassel's last three plays were sack, incomplete, and a 6-yard pass on 4th-and-8. No thank you.

 

Conclusions:

 

- EJ was a mix of terrible/great/average, but at the end of the day did enough that the Bills should have won. Leading a team back from 27-3 should count for something.

 

- This is not a great defense, but it is good enough if the offense doesn't give the other team double digit points.

 

- The season is not over. The wild card situation is a complete clusterf**k and there are about seven or eight teams who are competing for two spots. If the Bills' offensive weapons (Taylor, Watkins) and the right side of the line return after the bye, anything is still possible.

 

- I'm very depressed about the situation but taking a couple of weeks off is just what the doctor ordered.

 

Let's Go Mets!

[BillsFan-4-Ever]

None of those things are problems if EJ doesn't put us in a hole early. No late game heroics from Blake. No 1 yard. No bad call.

I am guessing that if it were any other QB you would say something different.

 

Yes, EJ was horrible getting sacked and fumbling with multiple defenders descending upon him and the next 2 drives throwing INT's. But he got his chit together and pulled off the comeback until the phantom PI call on Darby.

 

How about putting some credit on Shady for fumbling in or damn near the RedZone. Add those 3 lost points and it is also a different game. Blame EJ for a horrid 3 series, just don't forget the rest of the team dropping passes and missing tackles.

 

 

Funny thing was as I watched parts of the Cowboys Giants game I saw Matt Cassel throw 2 wobbling INT's (on consecutive drives) yesterday evening.

[Agent 91]

I don't think I did. Has TYGOD even thrown a pick six this season? Nope.

TYGOD?!?!?!?! thats about right though

[TheFunPolice]

It's so much fun to argue every year about terrible QBs

 

Tyrod Taylor is so much better than EJ that it's incredible, and Tyrod is not a great QB yet either.

 

The difference is that Tyrod might still have room to grow. EJ is EXACTLY the same as he always has been.

[BillsFan-4-Ever]

Calling out those in bold:

 

I will probably make similar posts in various threads throughout the week but the EJ dreamers need to be held accountable once and for all. EJ Manuel's performance today did not at all surprise most rational, intelligent Bills fans. But no matter how much it became painstakingly obvious, for whatever reason, 15% of Bills fans kept insisting that Manuel had this magic ceiling, had only played (now) 16 games, was ruined by Marrone, "good kid, great tools..."

 

I had to wait out a suspension last week and see Gugny post in the shoutbox that Tyrod Taylor is "terrible" (verdict's in on that one I guess) and in a thread that same day that Manuel's numbers through 15 games or whatever stack up favorably against hall of famers. Yeah guys who played in an era when 26 TD's and 15 INT's could win you MVP honors. Why don't you compare his numbers vs. a contemporary of his: Mike Glennon. Better yet, how do Tyrod Taylor's numbers (Take You to Tasker is the leader of the 'let's wait and see on EJ but verdict's in: Taylor sucks' bandwagon by the way) compare with those same players through 5 games??

 

I mean, the old, stale, tired arguments are so easy to refute. IT'S OVER! And the thing that bothers me about this is that I have spent so much of the last year (God knows why) telling everyone that he more than likely did not have it. And for what? It's not like I was asked to pick a number 1-10 and I took a number and Bills fan 4-ever took a number and I got lucky; this was plainly obvious to anyone who can watch and analyze a quarterback. There are two key components to being a good QB: thinking quickly and making quick, smart decisions and throwing an accurate football. He stinks at both! What in God's name did you see in this guy?

 

I digress. I hope this just dies forever. As I've stated previously, Bills fans who still support Manuel are eerily similar to Tebow-heads (saw there's a thread for that one too). Why? Why is he such a polarizing figure? He's just a bad QB, that's IT!

 

Go Bills and I certainly hope that the few of you who are trying to spread the 'Taylor sucks, that I know, but Manuel might still have it; hell, he might be an upgrade (WHAT?)' propaganda just quit it for good and start supporting the Bills starting QB who has had a HELL of a start to his career and may actually develop into/be the coveted franchise QB we've been waiting for lo these many years.

 

-Metz

Bravo Metz. Thank you for the hidden insults to people's intelligence. Maybe you should rethink - why you as well as I had to sit back on suspension - before you continue the jabs at people.

 

Yes, we think EJ has talent and could be a starter. Well so far it looks as if we are wrong for having an opinion. That does not mean you can sit there and call us idiots.

I will do my hardest to not fall into responding to antagonistic postings again.

Have a nice day.

[Bill from NYC]

A fumble for TD which is EJ's fault. A pick 6. Another interception that led immediately to a touchdown. There's no defense of EJ. He stinks and should have been cut after the game. He lost the game for the team and fans.

The only reason that EJ and RJ are not compared to each other on a consistent basis is because they look so different (and NOOO, I am NOT accusing Bills Fans or posters here of racism).

 

On one of EJ's sacks yesterday, it looked as if he had 6 seconds in the pocket. He just stood there and stood there and got crushed. That is what killed RJ, and he was more talented the Manuel imo. RJ had a nice touch and unlike EJ, he was accurate on short and moderate passes. He had a great arm, and he could run without being clumsy. But even with all that talent, he really did suck. Well, so does EJ, and I can't imagine him getting much better.

 

It's a shame too. I never had high expectations for him but he seems like a good kid.

[BillsFan-4-Ever]

 

Horrible doesn't bring a team back from 24-3 to take the lead in the 4th. He accomplished that! And on the flip side, he's the one who got us in that 24-3 hole. Had the defense made that one last stop, we'd be praising him for bringing us back. But he'd still be riding the pine behind TT when he comes back. I give him credit where it'd due, but at best, he's a 7-9 caliber starter. At worse, he'll get you to 5-11 and a top 5 pick in the next draft.

I have to disagree. Some of the people here would, not all would.

[TheFunPolice]

EJ lacks the most important traits for a QB

 

1) pocket presence

2) accuracy

3) consistency

 

If he doesn't have it by now he's not going to. Guys come into the league as rookies with better skills in those 3 areas.

 

Given that EJ is pretty much exactly where he was as a rookie I don't see how he is going to improve.

 

Everything else can be worked on. A "big arm" is a nice bonus, but Montana, Brady, and Manning never had big arms and they are 3 of the best ever.

Edited October 26, 2015 by TheFunPolice

[Agent 91]

My fear with EJ is he will pull a drew brees/Rich Gannon on us. Brees was benched for a 40+ year old Flutie and ran out of San Diego got offered one starting postion with a good coach on a crap team in NO and now has a ring. EJ has a ton of talent but looks lost too often and was clearly the worst Bill today but I always have hope for guys who work hard.

I dont see Brees but i could see a Fitz. But in his case 8 or 9 win guy.

[TheFunPolice]

Anyone who compares EJ to Brees never actually watched Brees in SD

 

Brees had accuracy, for example.

[BuffaloHokie13]

You don't think I do, but I've seen enough that I'm more than comfortable with the evaluation given Tyrod's time in the league.

 

In Tyrod's 5th year in the league; after 5 years of film study, camps, development, positional coaching, and practice, I'd expect him to be able to read a defense pre-snap, get through progressions, change protection and play calls at the LOS, hit open receivers in space, make hot reads, have composure in the pocket, and not run into sacks.

 

But he can't. He's limited, and limited doesn't win in the NFL. That's all there is to it.

Just so we're clear, in his 5 starts you've seen enough to evaluate that Tyrod isn't great and has no room to grow, but in 15 starts you still thought EJ Manuel was the best QB on our roster? I see his 16th start changed your opinion a bit.

Edited October 26, 2015 by BuffaloHokie13

[CountDorkula]

EJ lacks the most important traits for a QB

 

1) pocket presence

2) accuracy

3) consistency

 

If he doesn't have it by now he's not going to. Guys come into the league as rookies with better skills in those 3 areas.

 

Given that EJ is pretty much exactly where he was as a rookie I don't see how he is going to improve.

 

Everything else can be worked on. A "big arm" is a nice bonus, but Montana, Brady, and Manning never had big arms and they are 3 of the best ever.

 

I will add,

 

ability to look off a defender.

Stares down WR's.

[Big Gun]

Bravo Metz. Thank you for the hidden insults to people's intelligence. Maybe you should rethink - why you as well as I had to sit back on suspension - before you continue the jabs at people.

 

Yes, we think EJ has talent and could be a starter. Well so far it looks as if we are wrong for having an opinion. That does not mean you can sit there and call us idiots.

I will do my hardest to not fall into responding to antagonistic postings again.

Have a nice day.

Kind of ironic that you would say that, as anyone who's opinion differed from yours and thought EJ wasn't a good QB was wrong and a troll in your eyes.

[BmarvB]

I've officially transitioned to being annoyed every time I watch Cam Newton play... It's a combination of dashed hope that EJ could have evolved be that good, combined with the realization Thad Lewis is actually far better.... #ihatemyfanhood

 

Hmmmmm

Where is Thad Lewis now? I thought he could have been developed into a pretty good backup.

Sure he screwed up but it wasn't EJs fault 100%. Poor play calls and also everyone was covered on several plays that mattered. Whether a short 2nd or a 3rd down.

 

He did well! He led the team to a comeback. But Corey Graham sealed our win. They just had to last one more drive. Unfortunately we all know the outcome or there would be "Will EJ take the #1 spot?" Threads.

 

You're absolutely right. That was the point I was making in EJ's defense. Even though he really did suck everything suckable in the first half, he put it behind him, overcame it, and brought the team back in the 2nd half. Had we won, somebody (not me) would be speaking EJ's name in the same sentence with Frank Reich (Again, NOT me)

Edited October 26, 2015 by BmarvB

[FireChan]

I am guessing that if it were any other QB you would say something different.

 

Yes, EJ was horrible getting sacked and fumbling with multiple defenders descending upon him and the next 2 drives throwing INT's. But he got his chit together and pulled off the comeback until the phantom PI call on Darby.

 

How about putting some credit on Shady for fumbling in or damn near the RedZone. Add those 3 lost points and it is also a different game. Blame EJ for a horrid 3 series, just don't forget the rest of the team dropping passes and missing tackles.

 

 

Funny thing was as I watched parts of the Cowboys Giants game I saw Matt Cassel throw 2 wobbling INT's (on consecutive drives) yesterday evening.

Bad when there's multiple defenders? Yikes, do we play a team without defenders?

[CodeMonkey]

Maybe the most disturbing long term issue to me with Manuel was noticed and pointed out by the Yahoo talking heads during the game a few times yesterday. Three years in and Manuel is still staring down his receivers and not looking the safeties off even a little. That plus still consistently throwing to the middle of the field right into zone coverage. Still doing these kinds of very bad things three years in makes me seriously doubt his viability as a starter, ever. He has some potential as a backup however.

[Fadingpain]

Maybe the most disturbing long term issue to me with Manuel was noticed and pointed out by the Yahoo talking heads during the game a few times yesterday. Three years in and Manuel is still staring down his receivers and not looking the safeties off even a little. That plus still consistently throwing to the middle of the field right into zone coverage. Still doing these kinds of very bad things three years in makes me seriously doubt his viability as a starter, ever. He has some potential as a backup however.

His throwing mechanics are just awful and that hasn't improved much over time, either.

 

It's a big part of why he is so inconsistent with his accuracy.

 

I think he'll be out of the league shortly.

[TakeYouToTasker]

Just so we're clear, in his 5 starts you've seen enough to evaluate that Tyrod isn't great and has no room to grow, but in 15 starts you still thought EJ Manuel was the best QB on our roster? I see his 16th start changed your opinion a bit.

Tyrod has been in the league for 5 years and all of his starts have been in his 5th season, so the game should definitely have slowed down for him by now. The overwhelming majority of EJ starts had been in his rookie year, with a handful at the beginning of his second season, where the game very typically has not slowed down yet for quarterbacks. The third year is where you typically see quarterbacks take strides.

[Big Gun]

His throwing mechanics are just awful and that hasn't improved much over time, either.

 

It's a big part of why he is so inconsistent with his accuracy.

 

I think he'll be out of the league shortly.

I suspect if not sometime in the next 2 weeks, most definitely at years end. What coaching staff is going to trust him with even a backup position? He crapped out against arguably the worst team in the NFL. If i'm a coach, i'm not touching this guy.

[BuffaloHokie13]

Tyrod has been in the league for 5 years and all of his starts have been in his 5th season, so the game should definitely have slowed down for him by now. The overwhelming majority of EJ starts had been in his rookie year, with a handful at the beginning of his second season, where the game very typically has not slowed down yet for quarterbacks. The third year is where you typically see quarterbacks take strides.

So, in short, yes. you were wrong after 15 games of EJ, but 5 is enough for a definitive evaluation.

[GG]

Tyrod has been in the league for 5 years and all of his starts have been in his 5th season, so the game should definitely have slowed down for him by now. The overwhelming majority of EJ starts had been in his rookie year, with a handful at the beginning of his second season, where the game very typically has not slowed down yet for quarterbacks. The third year is where you typically see quarterbacks take strides.

 

And in his 16 starts, EJ has yet to have as good a game as TT's best game, and has had a lot of games that are worse than TT's worst game. A little tidbit you continued to ignore in your crudsade.

[xsoldier54]

None of those things are problems if EJ doesn't put us in a hole early. No late game heroics from Blake. No 1 yard. No bad call.

This. EJ is horrible and it was his mistakes that caused that huge deficit. Without those mistakes, we win this game easily.

[BuffaloHokie13]

This. EJ is horrible and it was his mistakes that caused that huge deficit. Without those mistakes, we win this game easily.

I don't know if that's fair. Turnovers only led to 20 of the Jags' 34 points.

[TakeYouToTasker]

 

And in his 16 starts, EJ has yet to have as good a game as TT's best game, and has had a lot of games that are worse than TT's worst game. A little tidbit you continued to ignore in your crudsade.

Perhaps you should have read the things I said, instead of simply opining in ignorance, yes?

 

EJ Manuel has demonstrated that he is not the answer, as he hasn't taken the strides he needed to here in his third season. He is, beyond a shadow of a doubt, not as good of a quarterback as Tyrod Taylor.

 

This is unfortunate, because EJ's development was crucial to us having any success this year, and in to the next several years; as Tyrod Taylor is also a bad quarterback. Not as bad as EJ Manuel, but not good enough to win consistently in the NFL.

[GG]

I don't know if that's fair. Turnovers only led to 20 of the Jags' 34 points.

 

Don't discount the net 4 points left on the field with a bad pass to Gragg in 1Q

[dave mcbride]

 

Don't discount the net 4 points left on the field with a bad pass to Gragg in 1Q

That is absolutely true. Gragg was wide open.

[TakeYouToTasker]

So, in short, yes. you were wrong after 15 games of EJ, but 5 is enough for a definitive evaluation.

Again, given NFL developmental curves at the quarterback position, I wanted to see what EJ might have matured in to in his third season, which is when quarterbacks typically begin to show marked improvements.

 

Tyrod Taylor is in his fifth season.

[Wayne Cubed]

 

Don't discount the net 4 points left on the field with a bad pass to Gragg in 1Q

 

Yea he missed Gragg twice on that drive. The deep throw, if he hits Gragg in stride, there is no one behind him and he could have waltzed into the endzone. Then he misses wide open in the corner of the endzone.

[dave mcbride]

An interesting factoid: EJ is the only QB in NFL history to have been the losing starting QB in three different countries.

[GG]

Perhaps you should have read the things I said, instead of simply opining in ignorance, yes?

 

EJ Manuel has demonstrated that he is not the answer, as he hasn't taken the strides he needed to here in his third season. He is, beyond a shadow of a doubt, not as good of a quarterback as Tyrod Taylor.

 

This is unfortunate, because EJ's development was crucial to us having any success this year, and in to the next several years; as Tyrod Taylor is also a bad quarterback. Not as bad as EJ Manuel, but not good enough to win consistently in the NFL.

 

I take it this is your evolved position on EJ after yet another clunker. Perhaps you're substituting wishful thinking for analysis. No reason to trash TT to lift up EJ, which is what you have constantly done until yesterday morning, and now that the story line is written it's time to pivot the argument?

 

What you continue to ignore, even now, is that EJ hasn't made any improvements to his critical errors. His game yesterday was a rehash of the "cons" that were in every scouting report and from some objective analysis from Seminole fans. You seem to think that a light magically turns on in a QB's head in his third training camp. If that were the case, we'd have JP Losman breaking Jim Kelly's records.

 

For the few cases where the QBs do turn it on in year three, there's usually a progression in the positive direction. That has clearly been missing in EJ's case. He's the same guy, making the same mistakes that he was in his junior year at FSU.

 

You were fooled by a few good passes against Cleveland and Pittsburgh, with little pressure, yet he still threw the ball a split second too late on many of those.

 

TT on the other hand has already accomplished more than EJ and in two games was down more playmakers than EJ had - and has a winning record to show for it.

 

Bottom line is that defenses need to totally retool their game plan with TT as the QB, while for EJ all they need to do is blitz a few more times per game and the inevitable turnover will come.

[FireChan]

Again, given NFL developmental curves at the quarterback position, I wanted to see what EJ might have matured in to in his third season, which is when quarterbacks typically begin to show marked improvements.

 

Tyrod Taylor is in his fifth season.

Oh is that why you posted 50+ times about how EJM is the best QB on the roster? The story changes, huh?

[BuffaloHokie13]

Oh is that why you posted 50+ times about how EJM is the best QB on the roster? The story changes, huh?

No no no, 15 games simply weren't enough time to evaluate EJ. But by his 5th start we know everything about Tyrod because he backed up a Super Bowl MVP for 4 years in another franchise.