Carucci's update on coaching search

[thewildrabbit]

C'mon guys, exactly how many of you out there would actually trust Nathaniel Hackett to develop a QB properly for the NFL level? I thought so, and neither does Whaley.

 

Bringing in someone to tutor EJ isn't a bad idea because he needs to be developed properly, and running up the middle 71% of the time nor 50 passes a game is the best way.

 

If the player in question is not the #1 overall and has holes in his game then just look to how the Ravens slowly developed Joe Flacco behind a great running game, and that is the proper way IMO

[Billsguy]

Goddammit Whaley. Don't let EJ friggin Manuel be your downfall.

Goddammit Pegula. Don't let friggin Whaley be your downfall.

[Kelly the Dog]

C'mon guys, exactly how many of you out there would actually trust Nathaniel Hackett to develop a QB properly for the NFL level? I thought so, and neither does Whaley.

 

Bringing in someone to tutor EJ isn't a bad idea because he needs to be developed properly, and running up the middle 71% of the time nor 50 passes a game is the best way.

 

If the player in question is not the #1 overall and has holes in his game then just look to how the Ravens slowly developed Joe Flacco behind a great running game, and that is the proper way IMO

Exactly. Not only that but you want to know how a prospective coach would develop any young QB, and what's important to him about that development. That tells you a lot about how he treats and works with and develops talent, especially QB talent. The best way to get that information out is to say we have a great slab of clay, tell me what you are going to do to make a masterpiece out of it. Do you want a coach to spend a few months preparing for developing a QB you think sucks?

Edited January 6, 2015 by Kelly the Dog

[NickelCity]

The accuracy. The accuracy scares me.

[zonabb]

I'm posing this an honest question because no one here, as far as I can tell, has played QB in the NFL, been an NFL GM or coach, or has much more to go on other than stats and what they see on the field. So we're all in the same boat with that regard.

 

I will preface this by saying there are some issues with EJ that stand out, mainly accuracy and decision-making, although I feel like has was showing more ability to work through reads by the time he was benched.

But here's are a few things before the question... The NFL clearly is about having a QB. Teams clearly overdraft them given their limited supply and desperation. You'd pay $5 for a glass of water if you were dying of thirst rather than wait to see if you could get it for $1. That's basically how drafting QBs functions. I would say lots of GMs draft them in this manner, just look at the track record of first round busts. Others get lucky, like Seattle who signed a mediocre QB as a free agent who threw 6 TDs in his only start the prior season and still drafted Wilson in the third. That FA never saw the field not because the Seahawks were especially smart, but rather they used a later pick to get QB on the roster.

 

So here's the question because everyone is clamoring that we wasted the 2015 first round pick for Watkins yet if we just agree that EJ is garbage, we've wasted the 2013 pick on 14 games.

 

How much time is enough time for a QB? Is it always and should it always bee one and done?

 

It's fundamentally about what used to be the way QBs were groomed and the way they are now. Some QBs are OK from the get go, some had to go through some major lumps. Troy Aikman was flat out garbage his first and second years. He was no superstar statistically and he won three Super Bowls with very good teams built the old fashioned way... run and stop the run and don't make mistakes.

 

His first three years were:

 

11 games, 9 TDs, 18 INTs

15 games, 11 TDs, 18 INTs

12 games, 11 TDs, 10 INTs

 

His fourth season, he was 16 games, 23 TDs, 14 INTs, and a Super Bowl win. Obviously the eras are different and his numbers seek pedestrian in the fourth year but contextually he was among the best.... 2nd in pass completed, 4th in yards, tired for 3rd in TDs (leader was Young with 25) 3rd in rating and did not finish in the top 10 in INTs. To contextualize it some more.... Kelly that year was 5th in completions, 3rd in yards (beat Aikman by 12 yards), was tied with Aikman for 3rd in TDs and was First in INTs with 19. If they dumped him after his first year or two, he;d be labeled a bust.

 

In my mind, the Dolphins are doing it right with Tannehill. Look at his three year progression.... He's played every game and every single stats has improved.He's gone from 12 to 24 to 27 TDs and dropped from 13-17-12 INTs (slight blip there). His rating completion rate is 58%, 60%, 66% and his rating is 76, 81, 92.

 

In this win now league, I think teams make the mistake of starting guys who are raw, typically on horrible teams behind horrible lines, and expecting miracles. I'm not saying EJ is the savior but I'm not one to throw the kid to the curb because when you look at his stat line, it's not that atrocious. When you consider the patience shown by Miami and the progress they've made, you have to wonder what EJ might have been like next season if he started all year and had a good coach. People are saying get Cutler in her, he threw of 28 TDs last year and can sling the ball around the field. Well basically, Tannehill had a better all around year than Cutler and maybe, just maybe, that's what we'd be staring at for next season if EJ had started all along, had this year Sammy, hopefully an improved OL, and a defense that's championship caliber.

 

Instead, the lack of patience has gotten them where? And will the QB in 2015 be better than EJ with two years under his belt? To me, EJ shows more promise and skills than Rob Johnson (30 Bills starts), JP Losman (33 Bills starts), and Trent Edwards (34 Bills starts).

[DE Bills Fan]

Good info

 

--Whaley wants HC to develop EJ

 

-- Shanahans would not be a GM/HC combo but rather HC/OC combo

 

http://bills.buffalonews.com/2015/01/06/bills-interview-least-4-coach-candidates-end-week/

If that is true, then the Bills are done. Need to cut ties with Manuel and move on. He just does not have what it takes to be a QB in this league. Too slow in his decision making and totally inaccurate with many of his throws. If he is the starter next year, then the season is already lost. As Metallica syas "Sad but True". Get an experience QB, get some experienced OL and try and develop the young lineman that they already have. Also draft a back and hopefully, if we can get the Offense to even 'average', we should be able to make the playoffs. Give Schwartz another chance and keep some continuity which is needed right now.

GO BILLS!!!

[Sisyphean Bills]

The accuracy. The accuracy scares me.

 

Just scheme around it.

 

[BillsFanForever19]

EJ deserves to compete for the job in Training Camp. But if he plans on repeating last season by anointing Manuel starter and not bring in competition - then he needs to go too.

[In space no one can hear]

They also made an understandable but ultimately dumb decision in the off season to tell him not to run. That hurt him in a lot of ways. Yes, he got injured three different times in his rookie season, but he was never injury prone before, and you could see what happened each time. If he was going to be a good QB in this league he had to be able to run, even though he was never a "running QB" per se even in college. By drilling it into him not to run, and all but eliminating the zone read kind of plays where he is a threat to run, and totally limiting his rollouts where he can easier avoid the rush, it hurt his progress.

 

In retrospect it was a mistake, like a lot of others. Again, at first blush it is understandable because of the injuries. But this isn't RGIII we're talking about. He's not slender or frail. And if he turned out to be, he's going to be out of the league in a year anyway. They should have just coached him to be a little smarter, but still be yourself.

 

EJ Manuel was not injury prone before?

I guess you missed his college career…

 

Short summary-

2009- Missed spring practice after breaking his index finger on the first play.

Played through a tear in his right shoulder all season and had surgery in the spring.

 

2010- Sprained the AC joint in his left shoulder-missed 2 games. Fractured his left leg during the bowl game that year-but continued playing.

 

Scouting Report:

Durability is a legitimate concern- has a big frame that has taken a lot of punishment over the years and has been forced to miss considerable time.

 

Add his numerous injuries with the Bills – yes, he has to be considered injury prone.

 

[Kelly the Dog]

 

They also made an understandable but ultimately dumb decision in the off season to tell him not to run. That hurt him in a lot of ways. Yes, he got injured three different times in his rookie season, but he was never injury prone before, and you could see what happened each time. If he was going to be a good QB in this league he had to be able to run, even though he was never a "running QB" per se even in college. By drilling it into him not to run, and all but eliminating the zone read kind of plays where he is a threat to run, and totally limiting his rollouts where he can easier avoid the rush, it hurt his progress.

 

In retrospect it was a mistake, like a lot of others. Again, at first blush it is understandable because of the injuries. But this isn't RGIII we're talking about. He's not slender or frail. And if he turned out to be, he's going to be out of the league in a year anyway. They should have just coached him to be a little smarter, but still be yourself.

 

EJ Manuel was not injury prone before?

I guess you missed his college career…

 

Short summary-

2009- Missed spring practice after breaking his index finger on the first play.

Played through a tear in his right shoulder all season and had surgery in the spring.

 

2010- Sprained the AC joint in his left shoulder-missed 2 games. Fractured his left leg during the bowl game that year-but continued playing.

 

Scouting Report:

Durability is a legitimate concern- has a big frame that has taken a lot of punishment over the years and has been forced to miss considerable time.

 

Add his numerous injuries with the Bills – yes, he has to be considered injury prone.

 

 

So you're saying he missed two games in four years and he's injury prone. Got it, doc.

 

In 2011 I think they played 13 games (9-4) and he played in 12 btw, so he missed one game and maybe part of another.

[The Voice of Truth]

GM pushing his 1st round bust on potential head coaching candidates. That always works out well. I'd say thanks but no thanks and run far away. From the "glowing terms" Whaley is using to describe EJ because let's just forget they signed Orton late and benched EJ after 4 games just a few months ago, it sounds like they won't be looking for any competition for EJ either. Back to square one, broken record and so on.

I hope I'm wrong but you took the words right out of my mouth.

[BADOLBILZ]

Marrone did the exact opposite of this. In retrospect, it was a terrible decision and amounted to genuinely bad tactics.

 

 

I think Marrone and Hackett understood the concept that Chip Kelly is actually implementing and started in that direction.

 

 

The best EJ we ever saw was early on in August of 2013 when he was running that attacking no-huddle in preseason and running thru gaping holes for 20 yard gains was part of his choices.

I contend that when Ralph died everything changed. The 3 year plan became a now or never.

 

Marrone changed everything to create a situation where he wouldn't be accountable for losing. Up-tempo scrapped. Adjusting scheme to the QB scrapped. Play not to lose implented.

[TheFunPolice]

Is this part of why Marrone left?

 

EJ is horrible

[deadbeef]

I'll join those that think EJ has a solid chance of being good. Everyone says he has the arm, but the big difference between him and many busts like Losman or Jamarcus Russell is his intelligence and excellent work ethic. QBs need time to learn to read defenses and know the playbook. They become good when they intuitively and automatically know where to throw the ball instead of thinking about it. The "game slows down" as they call it after the first few seasons. With work ethic, coaching, and brains he can get there. He was said to know the playbook like the back of his hand. But reading a defense is a challenge. He is a film junkee, works after practice, and studies hard to learn but it takes time. Once he knows where to go with the ball on a play call for a given deference he'll have success. Once he can do it automatically in a split second without thinking he'll be a solid starter.

 

Who knows when or if he'll get there but I think a good coach can get him there.

[TheFunPolice]

Read the draft scouting reports on EJ

 

That is exactly what he has been with the Bills

[Kelly the Dog]

Read the draft scouting reports on EJ

 

That is exactly what he has been with the Bills

Ummmmmm... because that's who he was and he hasn't been developed?

[TheFunPolice]

A week ago the prevailing wisdom as "Marrone is fine but he needs to fire Hackett"

 

Now all of a sudden we've gotten to "I want to see more of Hackett and EJ should be the guy at QB!"

 

WTF? Have we entered bizarro world?

 

Hackett was AWFUL for two years AND he was EJ's coach BTW.

 

EJ is exactly who the scouting reports said he was: great kid, works hard, strong arm, struggles to make reads, is inaccurate

 

The more I read this thread and the deep, deep desire some have to buy into freaking EJ and Hackett the more I wonder if Marrone had a point.

 

Is it hopeless here?

 

Have we already forgotten EJ's pitiful performance this season that got him benched for a doughy guy whose was halfheartedly into playing, doesn't like to practice or exercise, showed up right before the season started to collect a pile of cash, and likes to drink Jack and dip?

 

Maybe St. Doug was saving us from the insanity of OBD. If they are truly hell-bent on EJ being the guy we'll be right here next season with the GM search. I could see where a coach would get tired of fighting that nonsense.

 

A few of the more respect posters (many of whom told us that Marrone was doing a good job because he didn't have a QB) are now starting to argue that EJ was never given a shot and we ought to be on board with more EJ. That worries the crap out of me, because it feels like it is coming right from Russ Brandon and OBD.

Edited January 6, 2015 by TheFunPolice

[gordong]

 

LaConfora hears otherwise:

 

https://twitter.com/JasonLaCanfora/status/552469812207955968

 

https://twitter.com/JasonLaCanfora/status/552469976071036933

 

 

Again 100% different then what Vic is saying so what's really the truth?

[Kelly the Dog]

 

 

The more I read this thread and the deep, deep desire some have to buy into freaking EJ and Hackett the more I wonder if Marrone had a point.

 

Is it hopeless here?

Sometimes when it appears you are entering bizzarro world, it's most prudent to look inward.

[YoloinOhio]

Read the draft scouting reports on EJ

 

That is exactly what he has been with the Bills

qbs are not plug and play from college to NFL. It is very rare to not need to develop them.

[TheFunPolice]

lol

 

Holy crap!

 

If you think EJ and Hackett are a joke you are now the crazy one on this board!

 

Marrone leaving has made some of you lose your freaking minds

Edited January 6, 2015 by TheFunPolice

[YoloinOhio]

lol

 

Holy crap!

 

If you think EJ and Hackett are a joke you are now the crazy one on this board!

No - But I think there is room for an open mind after the events of the past week have revealed some serious deficiencies in the offensive coaching.

[CardinalScotts]

the two advantages of Shanny are he has brought along young qb's before and will be given time to do it because he can flash he sb rings.....

[GG]

lol

 

Holy crap!

 

If you think EJ and Hackett are a joke you are now the crazy one on this board!

 

Marrone leaving has made some of you lose your freaking minds

There are a lot of valid points being raised in this thread, including the biggest question of why did the Bills offense turn pop gun, when it was built for explosiveness.

[TheFunPolice]

I get the need to attack and bash Doug Marrone. I do. I have enjoyed it myself.

 

But let's not get delusional. Hackett's offense has been terrible the entire time he's been here. The marketing story for 2015 was he and Doug just needed a QB. After all, 9 wins was quite a feat with the CRAP they had to work with, right?

 

Now it's "look! we had the answer all along! Hackett and EJ are right here!"

 

Are you freaking kidding me?

 

Are you guys gluttons for punishment or what?

[boyst]

lol

 

Holy crap!

 

If you think EJ and Hackett are a joke you are now the crazy one on this board!

 

Marrone leaving has made some of you lose your freaking minds

there has never been a reason to criticize Hackett without looking at Marrone first. One was attached to the other and they likely held each other back in many ways. Ultimately it was Marrones team and Hacketts offensive play calling that made our team what it is.

 

Last year in the Carolina game remember EJ played without a radio and called his own plays for a while. He looked damn good. When EJ has played the ball he wants to and he can it has looked amazing. Orton, same thing. Orton took the field showing eagerness. Happiness and a will to succeed. By a month later he was dejected. Called off the field for 4th and 1. Expected to make a 4th and 10 later. The same guy that said we are going for 2 in Detroit against what the coaches said was the same guy that a month plus later slid before the first down

 

We were a bitter negative losing team under marrone

[BackInDaDay]

I get the need to attack and bash Doug Marrone. I do. I have enjoyed it myself.

 

But let's not get delusional. Hackett's offense has been terrible the entire time he's been here. The marketing story for 2015 was he and Doug just needed a QB. After all, 9 wins was quite a feat with the CRAP they had to work with, right?

 

Now it's "look! we had the answer all along! Hackett and EJ are right here!"

 

Are you freaking kidding me?

 

Are you guys gluttons for punishment or what?

 

forget it, Jake... it's Chinatown

[YoloinOhio]

I get the need to attack and bash Doug Marrone. I do. I have enjoyed it myself.

 

But let's not get delusional. Hackett's offense has been terrible the entire time he's been here. The marketing story for 2015 was he and Doug just needed a QB. After all, 9 wins was quite a feat with the CRAP they had to work with, right?

 

Now it's "look! we had the answer all along! Hackett and EJ are right here!"

 

Are you freaking kidding me?

 

Are you guys gluttons for punishment or what?

i don't see any one saying we've had the answer all along. Circumstances can lead to people being more open to the possibility that there is still a chance for EJ - things don't have to be so absolute.

[In space no one can hear]

So you're saying he missed two games in four years and he's injury prone. Got it, doc.

 

In 2011 I think they played 13 games (9-4) and he played in 12 btw, so he missed one game and maybe part of another.

 

I was giving you a few examples,

with your weak reading comprehension skills, I didn't want to lose you.

Between the injuries he had in college that he played through and ones he missed time with-

adding his numerous injuries already in his short career with the Bills. The injury prone label sticks.

[TheFunPolice]

A lot of things start to make sense if you accept one premise: Whaley and Brandon essentially ordered St. Doug to start EJ and find a way to make it work.

 

The no attention to the QB spot prior to Labor Day, once it started to look like EJ was a dumpster fire and both Dougs realized they might both be out on their asses if the only other option was Tuel if/when EJ continued to flame out.

 

The tension and shouting matches at training camp, as EJ continued to look like crap and St. Doug started to get antsy and REALLY nasty.

 

The blowup with the "go ahead and fire me" quote.

 

The quick benching of EJ after the Texans game and St. Doug saying it was HIS CALL

 

Thus the conservative, vanilla, "popgun offense." St. Doug knew EJ sucked. So he and Hackett tried to find a way to run the offense around him and minimize his ability to blow the game.

 

Even the opt-out. After that season ending rpess conference Whaley and St. Doug have another of their "disagreements" over EJ. Since Orton is gone, Whaley wants to develop EJ. St. Doug wants another QB. He goes to Pegula and tries to get control of roster so that he is not left with EJ and a couple of practice squad QBs next season. It doesn't work. He leaves.

 

And he's REALLY MAD that he feels his hand was forced. He knows leaving was a risky and potentially bad move. He knows he has a defense and a solid team. He feels wronged because the front office is trying to foist a terrible QB on him. He feels that this team can win right now with an actual QB but he is being told to deal with EJ.

 

Hell, I'm furious at the idea and it's not my career or name attached to it.

 

A lot makes sense. Including the sudden 180 on both Hackett and EJ now.

 

Saint Doug was the worst person to ever live, so everything he said and thought was wrong. Thus we can continue with the guys we have! Hackett as OC and EJ. HEck, maybe even Hackett as HC!

Edited January 6, 2015 by TheFunPolice

[Juice_32]

 

 

I think Marrone and Hackett understood the concept that Chip Kelly is actually implementing and started in that direction.

 

 

The best EJ we ever saw was early on in August of 2013 when he was running that attacking no-huddle in preseason and running thru gaping holes for 20 yard gains was part of his choices.

I contend that when Ralph died everything changed. The 3 year plan became a now or never.

 

Marrone changed everything to create a situation where he wouldn't be accountable for losing. Up-tempo scrapped. Adjusting scheme to the QB scrapped. Play not to lose implented.

 

That is an interesting take. I can't say I disagree. The quality of the defense probably aided in the decision.

[Tyrod's Tailor]

 

 

Saint Doug was the worst person to ever live, so everything he said and thought was wrong. Thus we can continue with the guys we have! Hackett as OC and EJ. HEck, maybe even Hackett as HC!

 

And round and round we go.

[Kelly the Dog]

 

forget it, Jake... it's Chinatown

Awesome.

[TheFunPolice]

It's amazing hoe easy Bills fans are to turn 180 degrees.

 

A week ago Hackett was persona non grata. Now he's a young promising genius who was simply held back by the coaching equivalent of Josef Stalin, who brought only misery and sorrow to the team.

 

lol

 

I need a drink!

[Kelly the Dog]

 

I was giving you a few examples,

with your weak reading comprehension skills, I didn't want to lose you.

Between the injuries he had in college that he played through and ones he missed time with-

adding his numerous injuries already in his short career with the Bills. The injury prone label sticks.

I'll give one example:

 

1.5 g x 4 y ≠ Prone.

It's amazing hoe easy Bills fans are to turn 180 degrees.

 

A week ago Hackett was persona non grata. Now he's a young promising genius who was simply held back by the coaching equivalent of Josef Stalin, who brought only misery and sorrow to the team.

 

lol

 

I need a drink!

There you go. For the record, whether Hackett had his hams strung or not, he needs to go. We need a whole new offensive staff in here, and a veteran QB to fight it out with EJ, and a rookie development guy to re-Tuel.

[Juice_32]

It's amazing hoe easy Bills fans are to turn 180 degrees.

 

A week ago Hackett was persona non grata. Now he's a young promising genius who was simply held back by the coaching equivalent of Josef Stalin, who brought only misery and sorrow to the team.

 

lol

 

I need a drink!

 

The difference though is what has come to light the past week. It is not a normal situation, honestly it is pretty close to unprecedented. Digging in your heels and claiming that everything we thought before is still valid makes no sense. If you can't question and discuss things on an internet message board, then where?

Edited January 6, 2015 by Juice_32

[TSOL]

If EJ got cut right now, hed be picked up by a high end team in >45 seconds and wed be blaming Marrone for the next 15 years for the one that got away.

 

Get him an O line and a reasonable offensive coordinator.

[Tyrod's Tailor]

If EJ got cut right now, hed be picked up by a high end team in >45 seconds and wed be blaming Marrone for the next 15 years for the one that got away.

 

Get him an O line and a reasonable offensive coordinator.

 

Picked up, sure. Anointed as the starter, no questions asked? Doubt it.

[In space no one can hear]

I'll give one example:

 

1.5 g x 4 y ≠ Prone.

There you go. For the record, whether Hackett had his hams strung or not, he needs to go. We need a whole new offensive staff in here, and a veteran QB to fight it out with EJ, and a rookie development guy to re-Tuel.

 

As I figured, it was way too much for you to comprehend.

[Kelly the Dog]

 

As I figured, it was way too much for you to comprehend.

Quarterbacks get hit and get hurt. Every one of them. They play through pain. All players at all positions do in fact, except kickers. If you missed one game your entire college career, and broke your pinkie, you are not injury prone. Just the opposite. Sorry to inform you.