Punch Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 I don't follow the Sabres anymore, but is it surprising that they have a lot of good prospects after picking "early and often in the past three drafts"? Is this fact due to TP's astute management of the franchise? I have no idea, but the linked article does not make me feel better about the immediate future of the Bills. Nice try, though. If you look at the Sabres record over the past few years, it is reasonable to be concerned with Pegula's ownership. However, the high level prospect group is evidence of a plan to build from scratch--- hence the poor record. It shouldn't necesarily make anyone feel better about the Bills, but it should prove the wins and losses are not the result of incompetence but rather a measured attempt to ship out vets and retool through the draft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hondo in seattle Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Hondo, good posts both of them. (I tried to edit to make the quote shorter, hope I didn't distort) One small comment: while I'm sure conflict with Littman was part of the issue, another viewpoint is that it was primarily Wilson himself who couldn't get along with Polian. This interesting article recounts: Later that night, Levy went to Wilson’s hotel room and made a case for his friend, arguing that Polian was the best general manager in football, a superb personnel evaluator, a terrific negotiator, and one of the smartest people in the game. Wilson gave Levy a fatherly smile and said, “Marv, everything you said about Bill’s merits I agree with. But we just don’t get along.” I believe Polian more or less confirmed that he had a lot to do with his own firing in later years. So I'm not sure that incident really shows the "power of the Old Guard"; they weren't the "Old Guard" then, most of them were people Polian and Wilson had hired in their remodel of the organization to build it into a winning franchise. Now, yes, they are the "Lifers" and powerful as Ralph relied on and even clung to them as the vestiges of the once-proud franchise in his waning years. This doesn't take away from your main points, which are that Sully is a clueless pot-stirrer and that the Pegulas appear to be taking the right steps to move the franchise forward. ____________________ I'm sorry, bbb, I'm struggling with quoting at all I had never heard this story before. Thanks. Polian, in his book, made it sound more like a Polian-versus-Littman thing and took some blame for the bad relationship. In fact, Polian says him and Ralph remained friends throughout the years. And we have a lot of hints over the years that LIttman, Overdorf, and Berchtold (and others?) enjoyed Ralph's trust and were basically untouchable. Of course, the Old Guard was once the New Guard but I still think there's been some problems with them in terms of how responsive they were to the ideas and needs of the coaches. Looking at all this is like seeing an iceberg. There's definitely something there. But we're all inferring the other 90% differently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PromoTheRobot Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 I don't follow the Sabres anymore, but is it surprising that they have a lot of good prospects after picking "early and often in the past three drafts"? Is this fact due to TP's astute management of the franchise? I have no idea, but the linked article does not make me feel better about the immediate future of the Bills. Nice try, though. The Sabres were a planned demolition, trading away veterans for draft picks and prospects. So they are rough now but we all hope these kids will blossom into big time NHL players. They have a couple of kids, Ristolinen, Zadorov and Girginsons that are already playing at a high level in Buffalo. No idea how the Bills will turn out but that's the story with the Sabres anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 I had never heard this story before. Thanks. Polian, in his book, made it sound more like a Polian-versus-Littman thing and took some blame for the bad relationship. In fact, Polian says him and Ralph remained friends throughout the years. And we have a lot of hints over the years that LIttman, Overdorf, and Berchtold (and others?) enjoyed Ralph's trust and were basically untouchable. Of course, the Old Guard was once the New Guard but I still think there's been some problems with them in terms of how responsive they were to the ideas and needs of the coaches. Looking at all this is like seeing an iceberg. There's definitely something there. But we're all inferring the other 90% differently. I don't disagree with you at all that for the last 15, maybe 20, years the Unholy Trio and anyone they blessed were untouchable, and had the attitude "coaches come and go". Brandon comes in there somehow also. Here's hoping the Pegulas clean house, but I for one respect them for not just launching in and gutting the place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheFunPolice Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Lol Marrone's family/friends posting now... "A bad tree in the forest" is one phrase Doug used to say all the time to players at SU Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pimp on da' net Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 According to this board's favorite </sarcasm> reporter, Jerry Sullivan, they are: http://www.buffalonews.com/columns/jerry-sullivan/pegulas-are-learning-the-hard-way-20150104 I just find it hard to believe that two people with the brains and know-how to make billions could be as lost as Jerry would have us believe. The answer to your question is simply, NO. Jerry Sullivan is an IDIOT!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 The bottom line: he brought in both pettine and schwartz. For that he should be applauded. I have a hard time believing Pettine was fully a Marrone hire. Same with Schwartz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 I have a hard time believing Pettine was fully a Marrone hire. Same with Schwartz. Why? It is usual for the HC to have his choice of coordinators, even when he isn't one of the handful that has control over the 53 man roster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikie2times Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 As someone who moved away from Buffalo almost two decades ago, I have to ask: is the entire city one steaming pile of crap? Does anyone in Buffalo do their job competently or have the ability to think critically? I am 100% convinced that OBD is a mess, a complete, total, dysfunctional joke. Yet so are the local news organizations covering it. WGR and the Buffalo News, in particular and from what I read on this site (and through the links on the home page), appear to be third-rate (at best) media outlets populated by bitter hacks and morons. And yet they seem to cater to a large percentage of the fanbase. I can only imagine what the radio talk shows are like - stupid, bitter fans call into stoke the flames of these mouth-breathing pundits. It just seems like one big giant cesspool of mediocrity and rage. Everything is a zombie apocalypse. Am I offbase? I feel the same way. I think the combination of obsessive fan base, short list of pro teams, small market, and the media coverage probably make Buffalo among the more difficult places to work, specifically for a QB and HC. People want to minimize the crowd/media effect but I don't see it. I watched the same thing happen to Michigan football for years. The Media/Fan base just attacked them relentlessly, as they're probably even ahead of the Lions as the most beloved football team in Michigan. The pressure was so severe and so consistent it removed the ability for decision makers to provide stability in critical areas. What happened for Michigan has been happening in Buffalo for as long as I've been a fan. Why would anybody want to work in that environment? It's not about having thick skin, it's about not having to work in that environment if you don't have too. The flip side to this for the players and coaches, if you want to be immortal, you play in Buffalo. But you have to play well. Jim Kelly will be talked about in Buffalo for decades after Marino will be talked about in Miami. Michigan got that "A" player in Harbaugh, hard nosed, said screw it, I want this challenge. Michigan had deep pockets. We will need our guy to develop on time, time that history has shown to be very limited if you play for the Bills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted William's frozen head Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 According to this board's favorite </sarcasm> reporter, Jerry Sullivan, they are: http://www.buffalonews.com/columns/jerry-sullivan/pegulas-are-learning-the-hard-way-20150104 I just find it hard to believe that two people with the brains and know-how to make billions could be as lost as Jerry would have us believe. Sullivan usually doesn't faze, me but he should really STFU about this at this point in time. Our team remains in Buffalo. Let's move forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stony Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 (edited) Has Jimmy Sext... I mean Mojo returned yet today? Edited January 5, 2015 by stony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Why? It is usual for the HC to have his choice of coordinators, even when he isn't one of the handful that has control over the 53 man roster. Yes, it is usual for head coaches to pick the assistants. But in Pettine's case, it was a full frontal assault by the entire OBD brass once Pettine became available. It wasn't the case of Marrone simply calling Pettine and offering him the job. I'm guessing the same was done with Schwartz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan-4-Ever Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Can't see why it would be such a burden on the Peg's an example Ted Leonsis owns the Caps and Wizards and they are not the worst teams in their leagues Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordong Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 Kelly, wrong again. My contention is not all time W-L record and this should be quite obvious. From dead in the water to a winner. That's what he did, period. In TWO YEARS with the Bills from 6-10 to 9-7 and...now this is crucial...trending upwards. No one has done this in TEN YEARS with the Bills. Sounds like you may be losing your grip some with this W-L issue. Nope, criterion absolutely 100% met. Maybe you should cut your losses and back away from the table. Really Marrone gets credit for all this.... He's a Moran. Anyone could coach this team to 9 win with that defense. Tell me what has happened to the O-line in the two years he's been here... yeah they have gotten worse each year (you would think the "head coach" would know how to make them better, NOT worse) A control freak, that I'm glad is gone....Good riddance dont let the door hit your fat ass on the way out. Hey let's run up the middle for -1 yard a couple more times before he goes, Mr. your stuck with me to Mr. take the money and run, yeah a real high quality guy there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4merper4mer Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 (edited) Kelly, wrong again. My contention is not all time W-L record and this should be quite obvious. From dead in the water to a winner. That's what he did, period. In TWO YEARS with the Bills from 6-10 to 9-7 and...now this is crucial...trending upwards. No one has done this in TEN YEARS with the Bills. Sounds like you may be losing your grip some with this W-L issue. Nope, criterion absolutely 100% met. Maybe you should cut your losses and back away from the table. LOL at your assessment of Marrone overall. Let me see if I can summarize: Solely responsible for the upswing which was done largely on the defensive side of the ball....no credit to Whaley who procured the personnel Not responsible for lousy OL despite it being his purported specialty.....all blame to Whaley who procured the personnel Well that's all comical and all, but to get further than 9-7 with one of the 9 being a "free space" on the bingo card in week 17, any team would need a coach that can go the next step. This is a difficult job. It would seem to be too difficult for someone who shows the following personality traits: PUBLIC screaming matches with his superiors Calling himself a Saint Thin skin to the point where Jerry friggin Sullivan can pierce it Upon departure....offer no statement whatsoever to a fan base that just paid you $12M over three Text the players, who are "family" via HR to let them know you are leaving I have left out tons of things because the above are enough and totally beyond debate. Others may be subject to a minute scintilla of conjecture, so I left them out. Although some of these things were done after the fact, they simply reveal character flaws that are far too deep to indicate any likelihood of extraordinary success. I think Marrone actually has some of the skills to be a very good HC but it is improbable that his strange personality and his obvious feelings of inadequacy masked by a hunger for power will allow that to happen any time soon. Perhaps if he seeks some counseling and develops an ability to be self critical.....a true ability, not a phony one......he can succeed. For now he seems stuck in a mentality that he is smarter than everyone else and his method of expressing that is to just keep yelling it louder and louder and louder. Those are not traits of a winner. Edited January 7, 2015 by 4merper4mer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BELLABEANER Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 The news clearly has an ax to grind with the Pegulas. The negativity has gone beyond preposterous. Whatever credibility that sorry excuse of a sports department had is totally gone. They should really all go write for the National Enquirer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xsoldier54 Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 All you needed to say was that it was a Sullivan piece. Complete drivel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eball Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 There's a particular characteristic of Mojo44's posts that almost certainly establishes it's either Saint Doug himself, a family member, or his agent -- the incessant quest for "credit." The question all of us should ask is....credit for WHAT? 15-17 and no playoffs. Again. This "9-7, trending upwards" mantra is nonsense. You can't claim to be building a contender and then lose the biggest game of the season at 2-12 Oakland. You can't claim to be an offensive guru and then watch every player regress on an offense that two years ago was at least average. And you can't take "credit" for the for defense you didn't build. Losing Marrone is the "dumbest thing this franchise has ever done?" Umm, have you been paying attention over the past fifteen years, or in the mid-80s? Not caving in to a delusional first time HC with a losing record may be one of the smartest things Terry Pegula has ever done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordong Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 (edited) Please, let that be true, and I hope he's reading reading everything that being written about him. I would love to see him come back here as the HC of the jets.... think it was loud before...hahahha There's a particular characteristic of Mojo44's posts that almost certainly establishes it's either Saint Doug himself, a family member, or his agent -- the incessant quest for "credit." The question all of us should ask is....credit for WHAT? 15-17 and no playoffs. Again. This "9-7, trending upwards" mantra is nonsense. You can't claim to be building a contender and then lose the biggest game of the season at 2-12 Oakland. You can't claim to be an offensive guru and then watch every player regress on an offense that two years ago was at least average. And you can't take "credit" for the for defense you didn't build. Losing Marrone is the "dumbest thing this franchise has ever done?" Umm, have you been paying attention over the past fifteen years, or in the mid-80s? Not caving in to a delusional first time HC with a losing record may be one of the smartest things Terry Pegula has ever done. Edited January 7, 2015 by gordong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 There's a particular characteristic of Mojo44's posts that almost certainly establishes it's either Saint Doug himself, a family member, or his agent -- Gotta be Sexton or someone in his office. Not enough shambling syntax or 'obviously's' for Marrone... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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