Whaley without Sammy

[YoloinOhio]

You can pick apart the words any way you like but it is still part of the rational he was using when he executed the trade.

Nothing wrong with that rationale, IMO.

[FireChan]

You can pick apart the words any way you like but it is still part of the rational he was using when he executed the trade.

 

Hey man, can you tell me what position makes sense to be drafted in the top ten? I want to see how many Superbowls top ten picks have won.

[first_and_ten]

If the Bills finish 8-8 or better I won't have a problem with the trade at all. That would put them picking in the 15th to 20th spot. Sammy has potential to be great. It's not that easy to get elite Wideouts. Picking in that spot would make it way easier to stomach and probably then would be considered a good trade.

Edited November 18, 2014 by first_and_ten

[The Real Buffalo Joe]

Like it's been said before, hindsight is 20/20. What that move told me, is that they had full faith in EJ Manuel's skills as a quarterback. At least getting Kiko back will be like having a first round pick.

[Wayne Cubed]

Hey man, can you tell me what position makes sense to be drafted in the top ten? I want to see how many Superbowls top ten picks have won.

 

He's conveniently ignored that and moved on to another point.

 

You said you were giving up a low first round pick, is that a guarantee of the playoffs?

DW: That’s not a guarantee. I’m saying we expect it to be low.

 

http://www.buffalobi...0c-02d08a1a5c2e

 

So basically he didn't say what you said. Thats not twisting words because the 2 statements have different meanings.

 

Would (past tense of will) - expressing inevitable events.

 

Expect - to look forward to;

 

Nice try.

[Dopey]

I'm your friend: https://www.google.com

:lol: :lol: That was awesome!!!

[birdog1960]

He's conveniently ignored that and moved on to another point.

 

 

 

So basically he didn't say what you said. Thats not twisting words because the 2 statements have different meanings.

 

Would (past tense of will) - expressing inevitable events.

 

Expect - to look forward to;

 

Nice try.

you're joking right? i just read this for the first time as i usually avoid the official bills propaganda.. most of the arguments supporting whaley here are taken right from this piece. except you all choose to ignore that he absolutely stated that he expected the first round pick to be a low one. depending on your definiton of low (and i somehow suspect many here will define it as whatever place the bills draft next year), he's likely to have been wrong. he made his decision on expectations. he expected watkins to be a star. he expected the traded pick to be of relatively lower value.

 

not that what any of us thinks or posts matters but hasn't 15 years of failure convinced anyone that rationalizing the bills bad moves is silly and self deceptive?

[Cleveland Rocks?]

And that should be good for them, but maybe not worth passing on an elite talent. Here is who is left on their team from the FIVE picks they got in exchange for Julio Jones just 3 years ago:

 

Phil Taylor - decent player, now on IR.

 

The rest:

Greg Little- Bad, cut after 3 seasons; Owen Marecic, played less than 2 seasons, cut; Brandon Weeden - Bad, cut after 2 seasons; last pick was traded to move up to take Trent Richardson in 2012 who was then traded after 1 season.

 

 

Sometimes you just need to take the player.

The Browns will get what they deserve. The scheduling gods made sure of it. In consecutive weeks, they will face the two elite WRs who they passed on in the draft as they try to make the playoffs for the first time in ten years. Would they have an infinitely better chance to do that with EITHER of these players on their team instead of having to defend them? Yes. Gordon or no Gordon, because they wouldn't have 4 losses and be in last place in the div. if they had EITHER of these players while Gordon was out.

[Wayne Cubed]

you're joking right? i just read this for the first time as i usually avoid the official bills propaganda.. most of the arguments supporting whaley here are taken right from this piece. except you all choose to ignore that he absolutely stated that he expected the first round pick to be a low one. depending on your definiton of low (and i somehow suspect many here will define it as whatever place the bills draft next year), he's likely to have been wrong. he made his decision on expectations. he expected watkins to be a star. he expected the traded pick to be of relatively lower value.

 

not that what any of us thinks or posts matters but hasn't 15 years of failure convinced anyone that rationalizing the bills bad moves is silly and self deceptive?

 

Again, the word expected versus would. And who said I ignored it? The poster said Whaley guaranteed the pick would be low. Whaley never said such a thing. He completely misquoted his meaning.

 

I have absolutely no problem with Whaley expecting it to be a low pick and didn't ignore that at all. That equivalent to expecting the playoffs. Every team has lofty expectations like that.

[st pete gogolak]

The Watkins trade wasn't "folly" (thanks for the insight Jerry) unless you apply total 20/20 hindsight. Yes, if you traded down and picked Odell Beckham exactly one spot before the Giants drafted him or picked Kevin Benjamin exactly one spot before the Panthers drafted him and used the extra pick on a quality guard, and picked a TE instead of Kujo, yes you could have done "better" than Watkins. But neither Beckham or Benjamin was considered Top Ten pick worthy. (No way is Mike Evans there at 9 - that's just fantasy.) I'll take Wakins over Ebron or Taylor Lewan plus the #15 or #16 pick in next year's draft every day of the week.

[peterpan]

I think a lot of fans are giving credit to Whaley where it should be given to Nix.

 

Mario Dareus Aaron Williams searcy Gilmore Glenn urbik Charles bradham

 

These were guys under nixs tenure. Yes Whaley was on the staff but who knows?

 

Also jerry Hughes was traded right at the end of the 2013 draft so he could be a mix call or a Whaley call, I'm not sure.

[A Dog Named Kelso]

How many times have those teams made the playoffs with those WR's, how many superbowl appearances and how many superbowl wins?

You would be hard pressed to come up with a list of top 10 in any position that met that criteria for a ten your period. Typically better teams pick lower, outside of a team that trades up.

[FireChan]

you're joking right? i just read this for the first time as i usually avoid the official bills propaganda.. most of the arguments supporting whaley here are taken right from this piece. except you all choose to ignore that he absolutely stated that he expected the first round pick to be a low one. depending on your definiton of low (and i somehow suspect many here will define it as whatever place the bills draft next year), he's likely to have been wrong. he made his decision on expectations. he expected watkins to be a star. he expected the traded pick to be of relatively lower value.

 

not that what any of us thinks or posts matters but hasn't 15 years of failure convinced anyone that rationalizing the bills bad moves is silly and self deceptive?

 

What's silly is taking cliches spoken to the media and ascribing some deeper meaning to them. Whaley said he expected the Bills to do well. What else could he say?

[peterpan]

Like it's been said before, hindsight is 20/20. What that move told me, is that they had full faith in EJ Manuel's skills as a quarterback. At least getting Kiko back will be like having a first round pick.

 

"Full faith in EJ as a quarterback". ---- that's the scary part!

[jahnyc]

Have to agree with Sully on this one, at least at this point. Of course we will need to see how Watkins develops (Kouandjio as well), but it does seem like some bad decision making and assessments were made, including the drafting of Kouandjio with our second round pick.

[Wayne Cubed]

I'll just leave this here:

 

"The Bills should have cut Dareus on Saturday and been done with him...."

http://www.buffalone...ten-up-20140603

 

oh and this too:

http://www.buffalone.../121009696/1082

 

Jerry Sullivan would make an excellent GM.

 

I'll just leave this here as well, for all those who have to believe what Sully is saying.

[birdog1960]

What's silly is taking cliches spoken to the media and ascribing some deeper meaning to them. Whaley said he expected the Bills to do well. What else could he say?

so we should ignore what he says? sounds correct to me.

[FireChan]

so we should ignore what he says? sounds correct to me.

 

No, but it shouldn't be brought to great lengths to make a convoluted point. Whaley expected this team to win a lot. So did all the fans. The season ain't over.

[BrooklynBills]

It actually wasn't. The extra 1st was the only way they could make the deal with the Browns. Whaley didn't want to give up any picks in the last draft, that is true. But the Browns made the 1st part of the deal and it was take it or leave it.

 

I had read differently. Do you have an article?

[John from Riverside]

I think if we didn't grab Sammy....the Bucs end up with him one way or another and we get Mike Evans. Given the way Evans has looked...Evans + #10ish is better than Sammy (and that isn't a knock on Sammy btw).

 

 

I still stand by the Sammy trade though. We all knew what we gave up...there was always going to be one or more "what-if-instead-of-Sammy scenarios" that would be good looking back. The point is, we secured Sammy. You can't complain. We'll have him for a while. It was a good thing.

 

This is a huge reach seeing as how Whaley already said Ebron was next on the draft chart

[papazoid]

#1- as a general rule, I would always prefer to trade DOWN and pick up an extra 2nd round pick (kiko) to spread the risk of injury over 2 players vs all in on one like Sammy who has struggled with ribs and groin.

 

#2- in order to justify this Watkins trade Sammy will have to become a pro bowler, otherwise it was a bad trade if he only is a solid starter.

 

#3- I think Sammy WILL become a pro bowl player in his 3rd year. amongst his many attributes, he has a rare gift of being able to snatch/pluck the ball out of the air with hands only. once he hooks up with a franchise QB....lookout !!

 

#4- also, I look at next years first round pick as a salary cap number of anywhere from $3-5 mil which we didn't lose and can be used in whole or part on a proven free agent. so it's Sammy plus a yet to be determined free agent.

Edited November 18, 2014 by papazoid

[rfk]

it was a desperation trade to fix the mess left by buddy nix...you can try and polish a turd with a watkins but it aint ever gonna make ej a play off qb

[davspo]

It seems as if people on these boards will rip your head off if you say anything remotely criticizing the trade, because they feel that you are criticizing Sammy. That is not necessarily the case. Sammy has clearly shown himself to be a talent, a hard worker, a person capable of playing through pain, and an all around good role model. Frankly, he is a talented good teammate.

 

With that being said, we could not analyze the trade. Sammy's numbers are not much different from a number of while receivers that would have been available to us at the tenth pick in the first round. You can argue that others have a better quarterback, or that others have a better line ect, but numbers are numbers. This game is about production. Sammy has produced, but he has not yet shown that he is the game changer that he was advertised to be. Can he be someday- yes I think so, but it is way to early to say this was a good deal that Whaley made.

 

Let's be honest and call it what it is- where does the evidence take us. Well, it's pretty clear. The team had no owner. The front office and coaching staffs felt their jobs were in danger. They banked on EJ and thought that Sammy and EJ were the future. EJ turned out not to be the guy (at least in St. Doug's mind- and everyone else who saw him play). Sammy - at least at this point is not the game changer we thought he would be. So here we are. Fifteen years in a row without a playoff appearance. Hell, we haven't even been a threat to make the playoffs by late November.

 

Facts are facts folks. Something has to give. If we are going to change the regime it must be done by paying and bringing proven quality people into the organizations. We can't bring in another group of "young guys that everyone wants", or mediocre college coaches, or "has been" older guys. We need to spend the cash and hire the folks with proven track records. No- I don't know who those people are at this point, or who would be available after the season ends, but that's clearly what is needed.

 

Marone is a disaster. The writing was on the wall. Yes he was the OC of the high power Saints offense, but he wasn't the play caller, he was Payton's underling. Syracuse is not a good division 1 program. It was a huge leap from there to the NFL. He was packaged and sold to us as the hot prospect. The reality of it is- he would still be a .500 guy at Syracuse if the Bills were not looking for a coach on the cheap.

 

Whaley is a great guy, but he is not quite ready for prime time in the NFL. Brandon is not a football guy.

 

So the question is : Is Terry ready to pay the price for real culture change at OBD? Is he ready to open the checkbook and pay for talented people? Can he sell the Bills to these talented people? Until then, we are doomed to more of the same with a revolving door of lower tier coaches and front office personnel- hoping against hope for a miracle.

 

Just my two cents on where the evidence leads us.

[IronyAbounds]

I have to laugh at the argument that criticizing the trade is just 20/20 hindsight. Of course it is, because that is how you judge whether or not the GM and staff has a frickin' clue. Even if Whaley would have taken Ebron all that suggests is that Whaley and the Bills' staff are not good judges of talent. Taking Kujo in the second round also suggests a level of incompetence. Now you can counter that with Preston Brown in the 3rd round. The point is, hindsight is exactly how you judge a team's draft and its free agent pickups.

[FireChan]

I have to laugh at the argument that criticizing the trade is just 20/20 hindsight. Of course it is, because that is how you judge whether or not the GM and staff has a frickin' clue. Even if Whaley would have taken Ebron all that suggests is that Whaley and the Bills' staff are not good judges of talent. Taking Kujo in the second round also suggests a level of incompetence. Now you can counter that with Preston Brown in the 3rd round. The point is, hindsight is exactly how you judge a team's draft and its free agent pickups.

 

It's hindsight because Whaley had no idea who would be available with the second pick. With hindsight, we know that trading away our 2nd pick would've been better than our 2015 first. But that information was not available at the time.

Edited November 18, 2014 by FireChan

[All_Pro_Bills]

It seems as if people on these boards will rip your head off if you say anything remotely criticizing the trade, because they feel that you are criticizing Sammy. That is not necessarily the case. Sammy has clearly shown himself to be a talent, a hard worker, a person capable of playing through pain, and an all around good role model. Frankly, he is a talented good teammate.

 

With that being said, we could not analyze the trade. Sammy's numbers are not much different from a number of while receivers that would have been available to us at the tenth pick in the first round. You can argue that others have a better quarterback, or that others have a better line ect, but numbers are numbers. This game is about production. Sammy has produced, but he has not yet shown that he is the game changer that he was advertised to be. Can he be someday- yes I think so, but it is way to early to say this was a good deal that Whaley made.

 

Let's be honest and call it what it is- where does the evidence take us. Well, it's pretty clear. The team had no owner. The front office and coaching staffs felt their jobs were in danger. They banked on EJ and thought that Sammy and EJ were the future. EJ turned out not to be the guy (at least in St. Doug's mind- and everyone else who saw him play). Sammy - at least at this point is not the game changer we thought he would be. So here we are. Fifteen years in a row without a playoff appearance. Hell, we haven't even been a threat to make the playoffs by late November.

 

Facts are facts folks. Something has to give. If we are going to change the regime it must be done by paying and bringing proven quality people into the organizations. We can't bring in another group of "young guys that everyone wants", or mediocre college coaches, or "has been" older guys. We need to spend the cash and hire the folks with proven track records. No- I don't know who those people are at this point, or who would be available after the season ends, but that's clearly what is needed.

 

Marone is a disaster. The writing was on the wall. Yes he was the OC of the high power Saints offense, but he wasn't the play caller, he was Payton's underling. Syracuse is not a good division 1 program. It was a huge leap from there to the NFL. He was packaged and sold to us as the hot prospect. The reality of it is- he would still be a .500 guy at Syracuse if the Bills were not looking for a coach on the cheap.

 

Whaley is a great guy, but he is not quite ready for prime time in the NFL. Brandon is not a football guy.

 

So the question is : Is Terry ready to pay the price for real culture change at OBD? Is he ready to open the checkbook and pay for talented people? Can he sell the Bills to these talented people? Until then, we are doomed to more of the same with a revolving door of lower tier coaches and front office personnel- hoping against hope for a miracle.

 

Just my two cents on where the evidence leads us.

You hit on a lot of topics here with some valid points. I won't comment on all of them.

 

On Watkins I believe he'll turn out to be over and above the other WR's in the draft the Bills could have taken and I believe none of those other top rookies have made much of an impact to their teams in the win/loss column. And they're not getting constant #1 receiver attention like Watkins is from the defenses every weekend. I could argue Watkins has been instrumental in a few Bills wins. The catch over the middle in Detroit to set up the FG, the winning TD catch against the Vikings, some big plays against the Jets. He's also been hindered by rib and groin injuries which have impacted his performance. The big 'what if' is the draft choice they gave up to move up.

 

As for Pegula I suspect he'll be 'all in' when it comes to doing whatever it takes to get the Bills turned around. I don't think he spent $1.4B in order to see his investment troll the bottom of the barrel forever. No doubt in my mind that things will turn around at the top here and quickly.

Edited November 18, 2014 by All_Pro_Bills

[papazoid]

if whaley thinks a 2014 2nd round pick is more valuable than a 2015 first round pick, whaley is an idiot.

[thewildrabbit]

The real question here isn't if Sammy was worth it or not. The question, or dilemma is the team still doesn't have their franchise QB, nor do they have a 2015 first round pick to obtain him this draft. So, when every team in the rest of the league is drooling over which prospect they will obtain. Buffalo will be sitting there watching Cleveland take their top 10 pick. This is going to become more volatile as we get closer to the end of the season.

 

Now in with some sensibility wouldn't it have been better to draft Odell Beckham Jr with that first pick, (as they loved the kid too) and still have that 2015 #1 pick. Or even trade back and grab that elusive big target that Buffalo has needed for the last 6 years in Kelvin Benjamin who is leading the league as the best rookie WR to date. I'd Imagine Benjamin would help greatly with those red zone woes. With that trade back they pick up an extra second and grab that TE or OG that they really needed.

 

Its nearly every draft, every year that this team still fails to fulfill its roster properly, and there are still huge fails coming from the scouting department.

Edited November 18, 2014 by FeartheLosing

[FireChan]

The real question here isn't if Sammy was worth it or not. The question, or dilemma is the team still doesn't have their franchise QB, nor do they have a 2015 first round pick to obtain him this draft. So, when every team in the rest of the league is drooling over which prospect they will obtain. Buffalo will be sitting there watching Cleveland take their top 10 pick. This is going to become more volatile as we get closer to the end of the season.

 

Now in with some sensibility wouldn't it have been better to draft Odell Beckham Jr with that first pick, (as they loved the kid too) and still have that 2015 #1 pick. Or even trade back and grab that elusive big target that Buffalo has needed for the last 6 years in Kelvin Benjamin who is leading the league as the best rookie WR to date. I'd Imagine Benjamin would help greatly with those red zone woes. With that trade back they pick up an extra second and grab that TE or OG that they really needed.

 

Its nearly every draft, every year that this team still fails to fulfill its roster properly, and there are still huge fails coming from the scouting department.

 

A top 10 pick? What? If the season ended today, it'd be #15.

[Utah John]

Odds are, considering the Bills non-astuteness in drafting, that if they didn't take Watkins and waited to take another guy they didn't think quite had Watkins' talent, they'd have picked some complete loser, and we would be watching Watkins plus all those other rookies doing so well, play on other teams. I think it's a tribute to Watkins, and a clue to his future value, that he's been able to do so well catching passes from Manuel for four games and "bad Orton" for the last two.

[papazoid]

 

 

 

 

 

 

I believe Whaley stated that Ebron would have been the pick at 9.

 

yes he has, on several occasions.

[birdog1960]

This is a huge reach seeing as how Whaley already said Ebron was next on the draft chart

and that would have likely been a mistake, too. so you're validating the first mistake with an alternative second mistake. it's a false choice. there are multiple other options for this pick. just because whaley apparently didn't consider them doesn't mean they weren't better options.

[YoloinOhio]

 

 

I had read differently. Do you have an article?

I think it was Ray Farmer who said it. There was quite a bidding war going on for their pick up until the last second.

[thewildrabbit]

Brandon & Whaley now have their "playmaker" they liked very, very, very much, and even a top 10 defense, where is it getting them?

 

A top 10 pick? What? If the season ended today, it'd be #15.

Season isn't over, is it.

[FireChan]

Brandon & Whaley now have their "playmaker" they liked very, very, very much, and even a top 10 defense, where is it getting them?

 

Season isn't over, is it.

 

Nope, but you make it seem like it's a foregone conclusion our pick will be top ten. Also, LOL at KB being the best rookie WR.

Edited November 18, 2014 by FireChan

[4merper4mer]

and that would have likely been a mistake, too. so you're validating the first mistake with an alternative second mistake. it's a false choice. there are multiple other options for this pick. just because whaley apparently didn't consider them doesn't mean they weren't better options.

 

I get what you're saying but it is only half correct. Not only was Ebron the Bills choice at 9, but that was about where he was slotted in many if not all mock drafts. In actutality he went #10 to the Lions, so #9 would not have been out of bounds at all considering our need at TE. Odell Bekham was the next WR selected and he is doing well, but at draft time, he was considered low first round IIRC. The Giants were also widely reported to be interested in the already drafted Ebron. If Ebron wasn't gone, Beckham may have fallen 10-15 spots. This means everyone would have been screaming "reach" if we stayed put and kept him.....they'd still be screaming reach today.

 

My point is that whatever Whaley did there would be complaining. It is the nature of the beast, but I just don't agree with complaining about getting a player like Sammy. I can see, and I think a lot of people can see, the skill set he has that is far beyond that of Beckham, Evans, Benjamin and whoever else is out there. This isn't a knock on those guys, just a recognition of Sammy's skills. You are not likely to get that picking at 9 one year and....say 9-15.....the following. In my book, the ONLY anti-Sammy argument to make is based on a QB in either 2014 or 2015. It wasn't happening this year given that we were locked in on EJ for better or worse.....as far as 2015....we'll see I guess. For me, I like having Sammy on the team.

[BillnutinHouston]

Marrone wasn't Whaley's decision. It was Russ Brandon's and Buddy Nix's.

 

This is incorrect. Nearly all media coverage of the Marrone selection discussed the fact that Whaley, Nix and Brandon comprised the selection panel.

[thewildrabbit]

Nope, but you make it seem like it's a foregone conclusion our pick will be top ten. Also, LOL at KB being the best rookie WR.

Tampa WR Mike Evans is actually the leading rookie WR with that crazy 209 yard game against Washington, and that vaulted him to #10 in yards with 794 yards, 7 TD's. Poor, crappy Kelvin is only #13 with 768 yards, 8 TD's. Both players are huge redzone targets.

 

Meanwhile Sammy is ranked #22 with 649 yards, 5 TD's.

 

The 2014 WR draft class will probably go down as the greatest class to date.

[papazoid]

The real question here isn't if Sammy was worth it or not. The question, or dilemma is the team still doesn't have their franchise QB, nor do they have a 2015 first round pick to obtain him this draft. So, when every team in the rest of the league is drooling over which prospect they will obtain. Buffalo will be sitting there watching Cleveland take their top 10 pick. This is going to become more volatile as we get closer to the end of the season.

 

Now in with some sensibility wouldn't it have been better to draft Odell Beckham Jr with that first pick, (as they loved the kid too) and still have that 2015 #1 pick. Or even trade back and grab that elusive big target that Buffalo has needed for the last 6 years in Kelvin Benjamin who is leading the league as the best rookie WR to date. I'd Imagine Benjamin would help greatly with those red zone woes. With that trade back they pick up an extra second and grab that TE or OG that they really needed.

 

Its nearly every draft, every year that this team still fails to fulfill its roster properly, and there are still huge fails coming from the scouting department.

 

the Bills will need to find their franchise QB in free agency.

 

ryan mallet will be UFA

 

sam Bradford may be released

[FireChan]

Tampa WR Mike Evans is actually the leading rookie WR with that crazy 209 yard game against Washington, and that vaulted him to #10 in yards with 794 yards, 7 TD's. Poor, crappy Kelvin is only #13 with 768 yards, 8 TD's. Both players are huge redzone targets.

 

Meanwhile Sammy is ranked #22 with 649 yards, 5 TD's.

 

The 2014 WR draft class will probably go down as the greatest class to date.

 

Maybe, but I'd bet a lot that KB does not end up the greatest WR in the 2014 class.