4merper4mer Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 A lot of people are all over Whaley because we don't have a #1 this year. I'm wondering how nice they'd all be if we have Eric Ebron on the Bills and still had our #1. Eric Ebron plus unknown roughly #10 pic > Sammy? I don't think so, others might think so, but there is no way to be sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DDD Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 I think what you are trying to ask is are the Bills better off with Sammy Watkins or having a player like Enbron and their 1st round pick in 2015. Hindsight is 20-20 but I really like Watkins. He's capable of breaking DB's ankles with the routes he runs. Great player even if it cost us a number #1 next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dayman Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 I think if we didn't grab Sammy....the Bucs end up with him one way or another and we get Mike Evans. Given the way Evans has looked...Evans + #10ish is better than Sammy (and that isn't a knock on Sammy btw). I still stand by the Sammy trade though. We all knew what we gave up...there was always going to be one or more "what-if-instead-of-Sammy scenarios" that would be good looking back. The point is, we secured Sammy. You can't complain. We'll have him for a while. It was a good thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBillsForever Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 (edited) A lot of people are all over Whaley because we don't have a #1 this year. I'm wondering how nice they'd all be if we have Eric Ebron on the Bills and still had our #1. Eric Ebron plus unknown roughly #10 pic > Sammy? I don't think so, others might think so, but there is no way to be sure. Drafting WR's top 10 doesn't make much sense in today's NFL. It is fools gold. I believe there isn't a single one drafted in the top 10 that currently has won a superbowl. Most teams that draft top 10 WR's don't even make the playoffs. It's an over glorified position that relies heavily on finding the correct QB and finding WR's in the late 1st to mid rounds. The Bills went all in on a WR and currently have the worst offense in the NFL and won't make the playoffs for the 15th year in a row. This trade currently isn't working out which Whaley banked on heavily. Edited November 18, 2014 by BuffaloBillsForever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vincec Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 Drafting WR's top 10 doesn't make much sense in today's NFL. I believe there isn't a single one drafted in the top 10 that currently has won a superbowl. Most teams that draft top 10 WR's don't even make the playoffs. It's an over glorified position that relies heavily on finding the correct QB and finding WR's in the late 1st to mid rounds. The Bills went all in on a WR and currently have the worst offense in the NFL. This trade currently isn't working out which Whaley banked on heavily. Matt Millen disagrees with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Tuesday Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 (edited) Ebron round 1, Kujo round 2, and yes, a lot more of us would be wondering about the bona fides of Doug Whaley. Edited November 18, 2014 by Coach Tuesday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hazed and Amuzed Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 (edited) Whaley is the best shot the Bills have had in 15 years to make the playoffs. It's too bad Marrone is stuck on having Hacket as his OC, that may be what kills Whaley in the end. He'll end up somewhere like Oakland and turn them around in 2 years. He's made some great personel decisions it's too bad Marrone sucks at his job. Marrone is Whaleys worst decision to date. Edited November 18, 2014 by Hazed and Amuzed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOUSE Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 Look, The additional #1 is no big deal should the Bills go heavy in free agency. Forget about this, ITS OVER. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Hindsight Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 Drafting WR's top 10 doesn't make much sense in today's NFL. It is fools gold. I believe there isn't a single one drafted in the top 10 that currently has won a superbowl. Most teams that draft top 10 WR's don't even make the playoffs. It's an over glorified position that relies heavily on finding the correct QB and finding WR's in the late 1st to mid rounds. The Bills went all in on a WR and currently have the worst offense in the NFL and we won't make the playoffs for the 15th year in a row. This trade currently isn't working out which Whaley banked on heavily. This is a good point. If we have a good QB then having a guy like Sammy helps a lot. Without a decent one, its pointless. Hopefully they figure it out soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBillsForever Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 Matt Millen disagrees with you. In terms of what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dayman Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 Drafting WR's top 10 doesn't make much sense in today's NFL. It is fools gold. I believe there isn't a single one drafted in the top 10 that currently has won a superbowl. Most teams that draft top 10 WR's don't even make the playoffs. It's an over glorified position that relies heavily on finding the correct QB and finding WR's in the late 1st to mid rounds. The Bills went all in on a WR and currently have the worst offense in the NFL and we won't make the playoffs for the 15th year in a row. This trade currently isn't working out which Whaley banked on heavily. Since '07 Sammy Watkins Mike Evans Tavon Austin Justin Blackmon AJ Green Julio Jones Darrius Heyward-Bey Michael Crabtree Calvin Johnson Ted Ginn I would say the majority of those guys are big time. I think it can be argued that, at this point, those players I underlined are the signature players for their team. That's half. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBillsForever Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 (edited) Since '07 Sammy Watkins Mike Evans Tavon Austin Justin Blackmon AJ Green Julio Jones Darrius Heyward-Bey Michael Crabtree Calvin Johnson Ted Ginn I would say the majority of those guys are big time. I think it can be argued that, at this point, those players I underlined are the signature players for their team. That's half. How many times have those teams made the playoffs with those WR's, how many superbowl appearances and how many superbowl wins? Edited November 18, 2014 by BuffaloBillsForever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 (edited) Look, The additional #1 is no big deal should the Bills go heavy in free agency. Forget about this, ITS OVER. this is my opinion as well. The consensus is this is a weak draft outside of a few positions like RB and DT. A premier FA TE or G, for example, would likely have more immediate impact than a rookie. QB is obviously one position that is not easily signed in FA. But they could have up to 8 draft picks plus Orton and EJ. They can take a QB with their 2nd rd pick if they like one. They would not have drafted high enough to get one of the "top notch" QBs in this draft, nor are the next level down QBs definitely 1st rd grades. Add to that there are not that many teams likely to take a QB in the 1st this year. I am not following all the rookie wr stats each week and comparing them to Sammy to somehow validate or invalidate the pick/trade because 10 games into their careers is way too early. He is here for at least 5 yrs. Edited November 18, 2014 by YoloinOhio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Tuesday Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 How many times have those teams made the playoffs with those WR's, how many superbowl appearances and how many wins? I'm your friend: https://www.google.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dayman Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 (edited) How many times have those teams made the playoffs with those WR's, how many superbowl appearances and how many wins? That is a ridiculous question to ask. This exact same argument could be made to say that drafting in the top generally is terrible thing to do. You know why? Because the teams who have consistent success never do. Those are great football players. Period. Edited November 18, 2014 by MoreOffense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBillsForever Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 That is a ridiculous question to ask. This exact same argument could be made to say that drafting in the top generally is terrible thing to do. You know why? Because the teams who have consistent success never do. Those are great football players. Period. Great individual players, sure but it's a team sport and their individual contribution at that position means very little in the grand scheme of things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 I think if we didn't grab Sammy....the Bucs end up with him one way or another and we get Mike Evans. Given the way Evans has looked...Evans + #10ish is better than Sammy (and that isn't a knock on Sammy btw). I still stand by the Sammy trade though. We all knew what we gave up...there was always going to be one or more "what-if-instead-of-Sammy scenarios" that would be good looking back. The point is, we secured Sammy. You can't complain. We'll have him for a while. It was a good thing. I think the Browns would have taken Sammy, considering the situation with Gordon. No way to know now though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 I think the Browns would have taken Sammy, considering the situation with Gordon. No way to know now though. they said they were going to take Watkins if they didn't trade the pick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 Drafting WR's top 10 doesn't make much sense in today's NFL. It is fools gold. I believe there isn't a single one drafted in the top 10 that currently has won a superbowl. Most teams that draft top 10 WR's don't even make the playoffs. It's an over glorified position that relies heavily on finding the correct QB and finding WR's in the late 1st to mid rounds. The Bills went all in on a WR and currently have the worst offense in the NFL and won't make the playoffs for the 15th year in a row. This trade currently isn't working out which Whaley banked on heavily. What position would you draft in the top ten that has won a Superbowl? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdk Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 Whaley is the best shot the Bills have had in 15 years to make the playoffs. It's too bad Marrone is stuck on having Hacket as his OC, that may be what kills Whaley in the end. He'll end up somewhere like Oakland and turn them around in 2 years. He's made some great personel decisions it's too bad Marrone sucks at his job. Marrone is Whaleys worst decision to date. Marrone wasn't Whaley's decision. It was Russ Brandon's and Buddy Nix's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 they said they were going to take Watkins if they didn't trade the pick. Cool. My hunch was right! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dayman Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 (edited) What position would you draft in the top ten that has won a Superbowl? I would also like to know the answer to this. Just for fun here are some lists of teams that drafted various positions top 10 over the same period of time I did the WRs above: QB: jax, ind, was, mia, car, ten, jax, stl, det, nyj, atl, oak OT: was, sea, stl, cin, jax, mia, cle, ari DE: hou, mia, det, cle, sf, kc, stl, nyj, jax, tb, atl DB: cle, nyj, dal, tb, buf, ari, kc, cle, was Just tons of superbowl rings for these teams. Tons. BTW having looked at the players on the filter as I ran those searches ... WR is looking like one of the single best positions to take top 10. Way better than QB anyway. Better than almost every position IMO. Edited November 18, 2014 by MoreOffense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 Cool. My hunch was right! pettine was asked about it a couple weeks ago, though I can't remember the context. I am sure it will be a huge topic in the media next week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4merper4mer Posted November 18, 2014 Author Share Posted November 18, 2014 I think what you are trying to ask is are the Bills better off with Sammy Watkins or having a player like Enbron and their 1st round pick in 2015. Hindsight is 20-20 but I really like Watkins. He's capable of breaking DB's ankles with the routes he runs. Great player even if it cost us a number #1 next year. This is what I am trying to say and I agree with you. You don't just get guys likes Sammy. I think if we didn't grab Sammy....the Bucs end up with him one way or another and we get Mike Evans. Given the way Evans has looked...Evans + #10ish is better than Sammy (and that isn't a knock on Sammy btw). I still stand by the Sammy trade though. We all knew what we gave up...there was always going to be one or more "what-if-instead-of-Sammy scenarios" that would be good looking back. The point is, we secured Sammy. You can't complain. We'll have him for a while. It was a good thing. I believe Whaley stated that Ebron would have been the pick at 9. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 I would also like to know the answer to this. Just for fun here are some lists of teams that drafted various positions top 10 over the same period of time I did the WRs above: QB: jax, ind, was, mia, car, ten, jax, stl, det, nyj, atl, oak OT: was, sea, stl, cin, jax, mia, cle, ari DE: hou, mia, det, cle, sf, kc, stl, nyj, jax, tb, atl DB: cle, nyj, dal, tb, buf, ari, kc, cle, was Just tons of superbowl rings for these teams. Tons. BTW having looked at the players on the filter as I ran those searches ... WR is looking like one of the single best positions to take top 10. Way better than QB anyway. Better than almost every position IMO. Exactly. What a dumb standard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hazed and Amuzed Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 (edited) I believe Whaley stated that Ebron would have been the pick at 9. I believe you're right. Edited November 18, 2014 by Hazed and Amuzed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nucci Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 A lot of people are all over Whaley because we don't have a #1 this year. I'm wondering how nice they'd all be if we have Eric Ebron on the Bills and still had our #1. Eric Ebron plus unknown roughly #10 pic > Sammy? I don't think so, others might think so, but there is no way to be sure. Why Ebron and not Beckman, Evans or Benjamin? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadian Bills Fan Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 Its kinda a catch 22... I honestly think Watkins can be a top 5 WR in the NFL but we also need a true QB to make that happen..... CBF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Cubed Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 Why Ebron and not Beckman, Evans or Benjamin? Because of 2 things, first Cleveland came out and said if they didn't trade out of the spot Watkins would have been the pick. Meaning Evans would still have been the pick for Tampa. Second, Whaley has said that if they stayed at 9, Ebron was going to be the pick so Benjamin or Beckman wasn't ever going to be the pick. They clearly didn't have those 2 players rated at 9 and either did any other teams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webster Guy Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 cant judge this trade for years. someone tell sully that too please. we dont even know who we gave up for sammy in next years draft, nor how that player will do in the NFL. when its clevelands turn to draft with our pick this march, whoever is at the top of our board is who we lost. it'll take a few more years to see how that player impacts their team, and look at sammy's body of work as a Bill. i think the kid already won us two games, detroit and minny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eball Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 Trades, like drafts, can't be graded immediately. Revisit the question after the 2015 season -- two years is a good timeframe to assess a trade. At this point Sammy has battled a couple of injuries and still put up fantastic numbers in a pretty horrid offense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrooklynBills Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 (edited) The real question is which of these packages would you rather have: Watkins, Kouandjio , no 2015 1st round pick OR Watkins, no Kouandjio, keep 2015 1st round pick The Bills did not want to give the 2nd this year and it was essentially their choice to move next year's 1st. They can spin it any way they want. Good player; bad trade. Clearly a move that did not have the future in mind whatsoever. You really have to question the decision making. Edited November 18, 2014 by BrooklynBills Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 (edited) The real question is which of these packages would you rather have: Watkins, Kouandjio , no 2015 1st round pick OR Watkins, no Kouandjio, keep 2015 1st round pick The Bills did not want to give the 2nd this year and it was essentially their choice to move next year's 1st. They can spin it any way they want. Good player; bad trade. Clearly a move that did not have the future in mind whatsoever. You really have to question the decision making. It actually wasn't. The extra 1st was the only way they could make the deal with the Browns. Whaley didn't want to give up any picks in the last draft, that is true. But the Browns made the 1st part of the deal and it was take it or leave it. Edited November 18, 2014 by YoloinOhio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All_Pro_Bills Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 QB is obviously one position that is not easily signed in FA. But they could have up to 8 draft picks plus Orton and EJ. They can take a QB with their 2nd rd pick if they like one. They would not have drafted high enough to get one of the "top notch" QBs in this draft, nor are the next level down QBs definitely 1st rd grades. Yes. The Bills aren't going to be bad enough to get into the top 5 so the potential to grab a bonafide 'franchise QB' with the surrendered 2015 1st round pick won't be there. Granted the bowl season and the combine might change the outlook but at this point I only see one QB, Mariota, that gets first round grades and he'll be off the board quickly. So the idea the Bills gave up a chance to grab another QB if EJ didn't work out is off the table. But the Browns should still get a good player at some position that will help them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 (edited) Yes. The Bills aren't going to be bad enough to get into the top 5 so the potential to grab a bonafide 'franchise QB' with the surrendered 2015 1st round pick won't be there. Granted the bowl season and the combine might change the outlook but at this point I only see one QB, Mariota, that gets first round grades and he'll be off the board quickly. So the idea the Bills gave up a chance to grab another QB if EJ didn't work out is off the table. But the Browns should still get a good player at some position that will help them. And that should be good for them, but maybe not worth passing on an elite talent. Here is who is left on their team from the FIVE picks they got in exchange for Julio Jones just 3 years ago: Phil Taylor - decent player, now on IR. The rest: Greg Little- Bad, cut after 3 seasons; Owen Marecic, played less than 2 seasons, cut; Brandon Weeden - Bad, cut after 2 seasons; last pick was traded to move up to take Trent Richardson in 2012 who was then traded after 1 season. Sometimes you just need to take the player. Edited November 18, 2014 by YoloinOhio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBillsForever Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 (edited) Trades, like drafts, can't be graded immediately. Revisit the question after the 2015 season -- two years is a good timeframe to assess a trade. At this point Sammy has battled a couple of injuries and still put up fantastic numbers in a pretty horrid offense. When whaley goes on record that part of the rational he made the trade because it would be the move that would propel them to the playoffs. We can judge that. Whaley also stated the Browns pick would be a low 1st round pick. Not surprising, the nearsightedness that Whaley had for this trade didn't work obviously. The Bills currently have the worst offense in the NFL, we won't make the playoffs for the 15th year in a row and the browns 1st round pick could likely be a top 15. Edited November 18, 2014 by BuffaloBillsForever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Cubed Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 When whaley goes on record that part of the rational he made the trade because it would be the move that would propell them to the playoffs. We can judge that. Whaley also stated the browns pick would be a low 1st round pick. Neither of these worked out for Whaley. The Bills currently have the worst offense in the NFL, we won't make the playoffs for the 15th year in a row and the browns 1st round pick could likely be a top 15. To the bold: Where did he state that? And if the Bills finish 9-7 it could put the Browns pick low first round, so thats a bit premature saying it didn't work out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBillsForever Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 To the bold: Where did he state that? And if the Bills finish 9-7 it could put the Browns pick low first round, so thats a bit premature saying it didn't work out. You said you were giving up a low first round pick, is that a guarantee of the playoffs? DW: That’s not a guarantee. I’m saying we expect it to be low. http://www.buffalobills.com/news/article-1/Russ-Brandon-We-made-a-bold-move/3b340387-cd0a-4198-890c-02d08a1a5c2e Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 You said you were giving up a low first round pick, is that a guarantee of the playoffs? DW: That’s not a guarantee. I’m saying we expect it to be low. http://www.buffalobi...0c-02d08a1a5c2e Of course he expected it to be low. Most teams feel they have built a team capable of finishing with a winning record. He didn't state it would be low. And they can finish with a winning record. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBillsForever Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 Of course he expected it to be low. Most teams feel they have built a team capable of finishing with a winning record. He didn't state it would be low. And they can finish with a winning record. You can pick apart the words any way you like but it is still part of the rational he was using when he executed the trade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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