Doug Whaley joined L.A. Bills Backers to watch games this morning

[Kelly the Dog]

That's easy - every one of those guys is better than what we have, except the ones who are retired.

'

Nonsense and you know it. I know you're proving a point and it is clearly a major, major problem.

 

But you also have to waive Cyril Richardson if you want to sign another vet, and you may lose him. If they think he has a lot of potential, that factors heavily into who they sign in the middle of the season.

 

They decided on a guy (Williams) who may or may not have been serviceable. Most of his bad play came as an OT and not an OG and he played against tough DLs in his year as a guard.

[26CornerBlitz]

The Spikes thing was a lot more of what Spikes will ask for versus whether they want him. He sounded like he would love to have Spikes back, but that Spikes wanted to play three downs, and was likely to ask for a lot of money, which will have to be weighed against paying Dareus and Hughes, plus what to do with Brown, who they love, when Kiko and Bradham are there. I'm sure he would love Spikes back.

 

They brought in Kolb to be the vet to EJ but he got hurt. The problem with that was that it was entirely predictable.

 

IMO it wouldn't make any sense to give in to Spikes' demands from either a contract or playing time perspective. As advertised he's very good against the run, but with Kiko expected to return in 2015 and the emergence of Preston Brown as an every down LB it would make any sense to pay Spikes big money with any promises of significant playing time beyond this season.

[GG]

I agree with most of that. But the disaster was that Kolb got hurt, EJ got hurt three times, then Thad got hurt, then Hackett had to prepare an undrafted RFA to play in a regular season game. That is what Whaley was referring to I think. That is not at all a 50-50 chance.

 

Again, I don't think Kolb ever had a season without serious injuries, and in the previous year, Bills took him out for the year with a vicious hit. It wasn't a wild goose theory in the 2013 spring and summer that Kolb wouldn't last the full season. That's why I don't classify it as a disaster, as it should have been half anticipated. It's not like they were dealing with a QB who never got injured.

[Coach Tuesday]

'

Nonsense and you know it. I know you're proving a point and it is clearly a major, major problem.

 

But you also have to waive Cyril Richardson if you want to sign another vet, and you may lose him. If they think he has a lot of potential, that factors heavily into who they sign in the middle of the season.

 

They decided on a guy (Williams) who may or may not have been serviceable. Most of his bad play came as an OT and not an OG and he played against tough DLs in his year as a guard.

 

Again, he had a major red flag due to his injury history. That is what stands out to me about him, as compared with most of the other signees on that list. If you're going to increase your risk like that, then sign TWO guards. Heck, sign THREE of them... the other guys on that list were not, by and large, major injury risks.

[NoSaint]

 

I agree with most of that. But the disaster was that Kolb got hurt, EJ got hurt three times, then Thad got hurt, then Hackett had to prepare an undrafted RFA to play in a regular season game. That is what Whaley was referring to I think. That is not at all a 50-50 chance.

 

also agree with this sentiment. no one expected it to be THAT bad. but they certainly did their part in allowing it to get there. 50-50 was them having to have the 3rd guy ready to backup (ie ready to potentially start on a moments notice).

[Kelly the Dog]

But did they really learn from their (admitted) mistake? The very next offseason, they brought in Chris Williams to be the solution at LG. He had a history of back issues, and predictably is now shelved with back issues. They also failed to draft a QB and lucked out when Orton was sitting there a week or two before the season. These guys need to learn how to spread out their bets...

That is unfair analysis, IMO, although again I know what you are getting at. You can't say look at the fact, the results of a move that didn't work out in hindsight, and then turn around and not give them credit for the fact, the results of a move that worked fabulously in hindsight. That's just cherry picking.

 

IMO, as I said before, Marrone is a bigger problem than Whaley on the OL. Marrone made the Pears move. He's the one that decides continuity doesn't mean anything. And I think fans don't realize that Seantrel, while he has been a surprise and may be a great pickup, also caused a huge problem, by making them keep three rookies (two of which are clearly not ready).

[Coach Tuesday]

That is unfair analysis, IMO, although again I know what you are getting at. You can't say look at the fact, the results of a move that didn't work out in hindsight, and then turn around and not give them credit for the fact, the results of a move that worked fabulously in hindsight. That's just cherry picking.

 

IMO, as I said before, Marrone is a bigger problem than Whaley on the OL. Marrone made the Pears move. He's the one that decides continuity doesn't mean anything. And I think fans don't realize that Seantrel, while he has been a surprise and may be a great pickup, also caused a huge problem, by making them keep three rookies (two of which are clearly not ready).

 

But I don't think it's unfair. It's basic strategic modeling. You have two critical positions - QB and guard (esp. for a "running team"). Instead of putting all of your chips on high-risk squares, why not spread out your bets? It's by and large the same mistake, repeated.

[Kelly the Dog]

Again, he had a major red flag due to his injury history. That is what stands out to me about him, as compared with most of the other signees on that list. If you're going to increase your risk like that, then sign TWO guards. Heck, sign THREE of them... the other guys on that list were not, by and large, major injury risks.

Then you cut Seantrel and Richardson and keep Kujo? Or you cut your second round pick without him playing one game? look at the whole picture.

 

Believe me, I think the OL sucks and has been a disaster. But be reasonable. As I said just above, Henderson being good prevents them from having one or two extra vets.

 

But I don't think it's unfair. It's basic strategic modeling. You have two critical positions - QB and guard (esp. for a "running team"). Instead of putting all of your chips on high-risk squares, why not spread out your bets? It's by and large the same mistake, repeated.

They got the best backup QB in the league. That's a fact. Before the season started. By waiting, they got a MUCH better guy than they would have had (there was virtually no one available in the off-season outside of Mike Vick. McCown would only go to a team where he was given the starting position. They didn't know it would turn out like this but it's a fact based system. It's not unreasonable to say they lucked out by getting Orton. But it's unfair to argue two different philosophies when one of them clearly worked.

 

also agree with this sentiment. no one expected it to be THAT bad. but they certainly did their part in allowing it to get there. 50-50 was them having to have the 3rd guy ready to backup (ie ready to potentially start on a moments notice).

Right. Kolb getting hurt was entirely predictable if not inevitable. That was a big mistake, too. Although there were not a lot of good options. He wasn't any good when he was healthy. I ragged on Whaley for a year and a half about the backup QB position.

[Coach Tuesday]

Then you cut Seantrel and Richardson and keep Kujo? Or you cut your second round pick without him playing one game? look at the whole picture.

 

Believe me, I think the OL sucks and has been a disaster. But be reasonable. As I said just above, Henderson being good prevents them from having one or two extra vets.

 

 

They got the best backup QB in the league. That's a fact. Before the season started. By waiting, they got a MUCH better guy than they would have had (there was virtually no one available in the off-season outside of Mike Vick. McCown would only go to a team where he was given the starting position. They didn't know it would turn out like this but it's a fact based system. It's not unreasonable to say they lucked out by getting Orton. But it's unfair to argue two different philosophies when one of them clearly worked.

 

 

Right. Kolb getting hurt was entirely predictable if not inevitable. That was a big mistake, too. Although there were not a lot of good options. He wasn't any good when he was healthy. I ragged on Whaley for a year and a half about the backup QB position.

 

I don't think, respectfully, that luck is a strategy.

 

As for the linemen, I'm not following you completely. Seantral is good enough to make Pears expendable. Pears should be off of the roster given Seantral's ascendence, and in his place, a competent FA or rookie should be playing RG. This would have been the proper strategy whether or not they signed Chris Williams; it's double the case now that Chris Williams is shelved. Put another way: they had an adequate RT in Pears, at least compared to the two inadequate guard positions. So why draft two RTs? Why not draft two RGs, instead?

[BillsVet]

I wonder how Whaley feels now that the Pegulas have made him report to them alone. I doubt you'd get a straight answer, but the reality is that move needed to happen for years.

 

That move illustrates to me that the new owners acknowledge the previous organizational structure was dysfunctional.

[Deranged Rhino]

I don't think, respectfully, that luck is a strategy.

 

As for the linemen, I'm not following you completely. Seantral is good enough to make Pears expendable. Pears should be off of the roster given Seantral's ascendence, and in his place, a competent FA or rookie should be playing RG. This would have been the proper strategy whether or not they signed Chris Williams; it's double the case now that Chris Williams is shelved. Put another way: they had an adequate RT in Pears, at least compared to the two inadequate guard positions. So why draft two RTs? Why not draft two RGs, instead?

 

Nooooo!!!!!!!! The Myth of Pears is grossly exaggerated. He was never an adequate RT, he's been a walking abortion for the past two seasons.

[Coach Tuesday]

Nooooo!!!!!!!! The Myth of Pears is grossly exaggerated. He was never an adequate RT, he's been a walking abortion for the past two seasons.

 

No. Colin Brown and Doug Legursky were walking abortions. Pears was just an early-stage miscarriage.

[Deranged Rhino]

No. Colin Brown and Doug Legursky were walking abortions. Pears was just an early-stage miscarriage.

 

:lol:

[Kelly the Dog]

I don't think, respectfully, that luck is a strategy.

 

As for the linemen, I'm not following you completely. Seantral is good enough to make Pears expendable. Pears should be off of the roster given Seantral's ascendence, and in his place, a competent FA or rookie should be playing RG. This would have been the proper strategy whether or not they signed Chris Williams; it's double the case now that Chris Williams is shelved. Put another way: they had an adequate RT in Pears, at least compared to the two inadequate guard positions. So why draft two RTs? Why not draft two RGs, instead?

You don't draft for position like that, you draft the best player, especially because you move OT to OG and not the other way around. I was harping on them to get another OG in here, too. I wanted them to sign Brandon Moore in a big way. They were not going to cut Pears. Glenn was hurt the whole preseason. Pears started every game at RT and did pretty well.

[stevewin]

I agree with most of that. But the disaster was that Kolb got hurt, EJ got hurt three times, then Thad got hurt, then Hackett had to prepare an undrafted RFA to play in a regular season game. That is what Whaley was referring to I think. That is not at all a 50-50 chance.

 

Still makes it all the more incredible that after the QB disaster last year, more wasn't done this year to make certain they would be covered. There were reports they were planning on Thad Lewis' progression at the position, and were in a tight spot after he came in and shat the bed. Thad Lewis? That was your plan? To go all through camp and preseason with Lewis and Tuel as your Plan B is incredible, especially when taking into account the lessons that should have been learned the year before.

 

If Orton keeps playing decent, and keeps contributing with his leadership and intangibles, he will arguably be the single biggest factor in a 'successful' season this year (and possibly them keeping their jobs). And we were lucky to get him just before the season started. The whole way the QB position was managed this season after what happened last season is crazy.

 

BTW - did the OL or Hackett in general come up at all in the conversation

[Kelly the Dog]

I wonder how Whaley feels now that the Pegulas have made him report to them alone. I doubt you'd get a straight answer, but the reality is that move needed to happen for years.

 

That move illustrates to me that the new owners acknowledge the previous organizational structure was dysfunctional.

I'm sure he thinks that is the way it should be, too. But it's no different than it was before since Whaley took the job. Whaley had to report to one guy, the active owner. Russ. Now he reports to one guy, too. the active owner (and maybe two, with Kim). If anything, he will have less authority, because Pegula (or any owner) has the authority to order him to make changes, when Brandon was less likely to do that.

 

No. Colin Brown and Doug Legursky were walking abortions. Pears was just an early-stage miscarriage.

:lol:

 

Still makes it all the more incredible that after the QB disaster last year, more wasn't done this year to make certain they would be covered. There were reports they were planning on Thad Lewis' progression at the position, and were in a tight spot after he came in and shat the bed. Thad Lewis? That was your plan? To go all through camp and preseason with Lewis and Tuel as your Plan B is incredible, especially when taking into account the lessons that should have been learned the year before.

 

If Orton keeps playing decent, and keeps contributing with his leadership and intangibles, he will arguably be the single biggest factor in a 'successful' season this year (and possibly them keeping their jobs). And we were lucky to get him just before the season started. The whole way the QB position was managed this season after what happened last season is crazy.

 

BTW - did the OL or Hackett in general come up at all in the conversation

Agreed. I couldn't believe that Tuel was in the plans, although it was not easy to predict that Thad would regress so much. he actually played pretty well under the circumstances, and again, you have to consider who was available. Your choices were basically Luke McCown and Michael Vick, both of whom chose places where they thought they could start easier. Neither were good or obvious choices. There was no way McCown would have signed here, they handed him the starting job to sign.

[No Cease Fires]

Kelly the Dog, I never realized you were a LA Bills Backer. I'm there most weekends. Sad I skipped out on this one. Didn't know Doug's brother was a regular either.

 

And thanks for all the details.

[Deranged Rhino]

Kelly the Dog, I never realized you were a LA Bills Backer. I'm there most weekends. Sad I skipped out on this one. Didn't know Doug's brother was a regular either.

 

And thanks for all the details.

 

There are lots of us lurking.

[Kelly the Dog]

Kelly the Dog, I never realized you were a LA Bills Backer. I'm there most weekends. Sad I skipped out on this one. Didn't know Doug's brother was a regular either.

 

And thanks for all the details.

Cool. Next time you are there ask Truly the bartender for Pete.

[Dan]

Firstly, the insight provided in the OP is precisely why this place is the only place to be if you want the best in all things Buffalo Bills. Thank you KTD. I'm also grateful that it was you that had an afternoon to chat with Doug and not some of the other posters around here.

 

Second, I find it interesting insight into the psyche of the Bills' fan. With all the good (and positive) stuff presented, the primary point of conversation has been the one glaring negative on the team; and perhaps more importantly, the one thing that was not chit chatted about with Whaley.

 

And C, I'll add to the second point with my opinion... Our line was pretty good and by no means the weakest unit on the team just a short time ago. What has changed? Coaching and the offensive philosophy that comes with that coaching. Maybe Marrone's mantra that O line chemistry isn't as important as having your 5 best players on the field is bunk? Maybe your line play suffers when the defense knows exactly what play is coming and even which gap the runner will hit? Maybe NFL game plans require more than just lining up and beating the guy in front of you?

 

Lastly, I especially found the comment regarding EJ being too nice and trying to please everyone, as interesting. It seems the more I read about EJ after his benching, the more it sounds like he needs to work on the mental aspects of his game far more than the physical aspects. Which, if true, seems like there's every reasonable expectation that the FO won't look to draft another rookie any time soon.

 

P.S. I also found the thoughts ln Spikes/Williams interesting. It seems Whaley would like Spikes to stay but if he's got a young capable replacement (Brown), he's not going to overy pay. Similar to having Williams ready to go and not doing everything possible to keep Byrd.

[No Cease Fires]

Cool. Next time you are there ask Truly the bartender for Pete.

 

Damn, we've met. Just didn't realize you were on here too.

 

And now that I think about it, pretty sure I know who Whaley's brother is, too.

[billykaykay]

Which of the above is playing well right now?

I'll bet that some of those unsigned Gs had injuries.

 

FtD... one of the most entertaining and informative posts in a while. Cool stuff.

 

I think any GM would come across as knowledgeable. Good to know Whaley is also likeable and down-to-earth.

 

Wonder how much you can infer from omissions. Whaley didn't praise Marrone much... Does that mean he's not enamored with his head coach?

 

Also wonder if there was a little hubris involved in the Williams signing. Being that Marrone is an ex OL, maybe he thought he could salvage Williams.

I think that Williams was a high draft pick. Perhaps they thought that they could coach up that perceived talent.

[BillsVet]

I'm sure he thinks that is the way it should be, too. But it's no different than it was before since Whaley took the job. Whaley had to report to one guy, the active owner. Russ. Now he reports to one guy, too. the active owner (and maybe two, with Kim). If anything, he will have less authority, because Pegula (or any owner) has the authority to order him to make changes, when Brandon was less likely to do that.

 

To say the organizational structure is the same today under TPegs as it was under RB is like saying red apples are the same as red peppers because they're both red. You've conflated the situation into being the same when in fact it's not.

 

 

Brandon less likely to make changes incumbent on his GM? If the organizational structure was so efficient, wouldn't the new owners have ensured it remained in place? Yet, they didn't wait for a consultant to tell them that a GM under Russ Brandon wasn't a solid move. Russ is still president, but he's not overseeing football, so someone advised them to take football operations away from him. That speaks volumes.

[Kelly the Dog]

To say the organizational structure is the same today under TPegs as it was under RB is like saying red apples are the same as red peppers because they're both red. You've conflated the situation into being the same when in fact it's not.

 

 

Brandon less likely to make changes incumbent on his GM? If the organizational structure was so efficient, wouldn't the new owners have ensured it remained in place? Yet, they didn't wait for a consultant to tell them that a GM under Russ Brandon wasn't a solid move. Russ is still president, but he's not overseeing football, so someone advised them to take football operations away from him. That speaks volumes.

What? Russ was the acting owner since Whaley took over. Ralph was not involved. When a new owner comes in there is no reason for Russ to be acting owner. Whaley's job doesn't change. he reports to one guy, the owner. Only now it isn't the acting owner, it's the new owner. How hard is that? That's apples to apples.

 

You still have this insistence on saying the organization before Pegula is exactly the same as it has been for 15 years when that is completely untrue. Whaley got a new job two years ago. Russ got a completely new job about four different times in those 15 years.

[Mango]

 

I agree with most of that. But the disaster was that Kolb got hurt, EJ got hurt three times, then Thad got hurt, then Hackett had to prepare an undrafted RFA to play in a regular season game. That is what Whaley was referring to I think. That is not at all a 50-50 chance.

 

The way you have it written, I took it much differently. With no QB coach, Hackett wasn't spending much time with the QB position as a whole not EJ in particular. Unless Whaley mentioned specifically EJ was alone for 6 weeks while injured (reg season), then to me that is every reason to suggest the deficiency here is more than just situational. Not EJ specific, but positionally. Even now it would make sense as to why Ortons demeanor is getting more production alone out of the position.

 

I am no Hackett fan, and I was high on EJ. So there is some bias. Now I just want production out of the position however it may come. As I have agreed with other posters, Hackett I don't think is ready for the big leagues. Forget rookie QB's, not having a QB coach while you run an entire offense and staff is silly and destined not to work when your top 2 QB's are injury prone and young. We can talk about injuries all we want, and disasters, fact of the matter is the guy (Hackett/Marrone) didn't respect the most important position in all sports nearly enough.

 

As a professional coach, yes the ideal scenario is to have athletes govern themselves. That is much different than coaching themselves. Somebody implied this was Marrones philosophy, which is fine. But the aspects of technicalities in any sport should fall on the coachig staff first and foremost. Teammates keep eachother in check socially and emotionally. Nights and weekends. If somebody is having an off day, not preparing well, or treating their body/sport with the respect it deserves, those are peer issues. Running proper routes should start with the staff, and only be helped by your collegue. That's how big boys do it. If it took The staff a season, 4 games, and Kyle Orton to get that done, then we have a serious issue.

 

Somebody compared it to Schwartz, great, works for some coaches, Kyle Orton is your QB, not your coach. Nor is he Peyton Manning, basically his own OC.

[Kelly the Dog]

The way you have it written, I took it much differently. With no QB coach, Hackett wasn't spending much time with the QB position as a whole not EJ in particular. Unless Whaley mentioned specifically EJ was alone for 6 weeks while injured (reg season), then to me that is every reason to suggest the deficiency here is more than just situational. Not EJ specific, but positionally. Even now it would make sense as to why Ortons demeanor is getting more production alone out of the position.

 

I am no Hackett fan, and I was high on EJ. So there is some bias. Now I just want production out of the position however it may come. As I have agreed with other posters, Hackett I don't think is ready for the big leagues. Forget rookie QB's, not having a QB coach while you run an entire offense and staff is silly and destined not to work when your top 2 QB's are injury prone and young. We can talk about injuries all we want, and disasters, fact of the matter is the guy (Hackett/Marrone) didn't respect the most important position in all sports nearly enough.

 

As a professional coach, yes the ideal scenario is to have athletes govern themselves. That is much different than coaching themselves. Somebody implied this was Marrones philosophy, which is fine. But the aspects of technicalities in any sport should fall on the coachig staff first and foremost. Teammates keep eachother in check socially and emotionally. Nights and weekends. If somebody is having an off day, not preparing well, or treating their body/sport with the respect it deserves, those are peer issues. Running proper routes should start with the staff, and only be helped by your collegue. That's how big boys do it. If it took The staff a season, 4 games, and Kyle Orton to get that done, then we have a serious issue.

 

Somebody compared it to Schwartz, great, works for some coaches, Kyle Orton is your QB, not your coach. Nor is he Peyton Manning, basically his own OC.

Hackett has said before that EJ is always with him, and standing right next to him, and going through everything. He does it now when he is injured. You can see him always there on the sidelines listening in, even when he was not playing. I think people are making a much bigger deal over me saying what Whaley said about being alone. Maybe I should have said it differently. 90% of the time throughout the practice and film room and weight room and quarterbacks room, etc, EJ would be there whenever Hackett was talking to the QBs, whether it was EJ himself or Thad or Orton.

 

There is no doubt having another guy there last year would have helped. And it was a mistake from the get go. But it's being blown way out of proportion IMO.

 

Plus only X number of guys in the whole league can do what Orton is doing, because he is that kind of personality, and has eight years and 75 starts and has had some success as a starter on a few different teams. Most QBs, even veterans, can't do that. They have no authority.

Edited November 3, 2014 by Kelly the Dog

[Just in Atlanta]

Thanks for sharing.

 

Now for the really important question...

 

Was he drinking Labatt's?

[Kelly the Dog]

Thanks for sharing.

 

Now for the really important question...

 

Was he drinking Labatt's?

Actually, yes. He drank in moderation. But it was also 10 am - 1pm. He wisely turned down requests for more drinks and went off to do some family stuff. I can't over-emphasize the coolness in how he handled the situation, pretty much every way, and everyone there thought the same thing when talking about it afterwards. We were all, like, "Wow. That was really impressive." The first thing he asked everyone is how long have you been a Bills fan and how did it happen.

[BillsVet]

What? Russ was the acting owner since Whaley took over. Ralph was not involved. When a new owner comes in there is no reason for Russ to be acting owner. Whaley's job doesn't change. he reports to one guy, the owner. Only now it isn't the acting owner, it's the new owner. How hard is that? That's apples to apples.

 

You still have this insistence on saying the organization before Pegula is exactly the same as it has been for 15 years when that is completely untrue. Whaley got a new job two years ago. Russ got a completely new job about four different times in those 15 years.

 

Completely new job? He was made COO in 2006 of non-football ops. Two years later he added the GM title and in 2010 when Nix was hired, he became CEO. His most recent promotion was to team president in 2013. I'd say the last 3 positions placed him as overseeing football ops, either as GM or overseeing that individual with that title.

 

The fact that the Pegula's removed Brandon from overseeing football ops tells me they know that relationship wasn't good for the team from an on-field perspective. One would think if RB was thought to be good at that function they'd delay that move until after the consultant made their report. But they didn't.

Edited November 3, 2014 by BillsVet

[thebandit27]

Completely new job? He was made COO in 2006 of non-football ops. Two years later he added the GM title and in 2010 when Nix was hired, he became CEO. His most recent promotion was to team president in 2013. I'd say the last 3 positions placed him as overseeing football ops, either as GM or overseeing that individual with that title.

 

The fact that the Pegula's removed Brandon from overseeing football ops tells me they know that relationship wasn't good for the team from an on-field perspective. One would think if RB was thought to be good at that function they'd delay that move until after the consultant made their report. But they didn't.

 

I think Kelly's point is that Brandon had autonomy for the first time ever--prior to January 2013, the Littman's of the organization had say in coaching/personnel budgets and other matters; that ceased when Russ was promoted to President/CEO.

[Kelly the Dog]

I think Kelly's point is that Brandon had autonomy for the first time ever--prior to January 2013, the Littman's of the organization had say in coaching/personnel budgets and other matters; that ceased when Russ was promoted to President/CEO.

Thank you. i think it's rather obvious. At first he was just a marketing guy. Then he was involved in all aspects of the business side. Then he was defacto if not actual GM. Then he relinquished that GM role and was just in charge of the business side. Then he was defacto owner the last two years. Now he is back to running the business side. Those are all completely different jobs IMO.

[Deranged Rhino]

Thank you. i think it's rather obvious. At first he was just a marketing guy. Then he was involved in all aspects of the business side. Then he was defacto if not actual GM. Then he relinquished that GM role and was just in charge of the business side. Then he was defacto owner the last two years. Now he is back to running the business side. Those are all completely different jobs IMO.

 

Don't forget his other job over that time span: guest starring in the Ivan Reitman classic DRAFT DAY:

 

[yungmack]

K-Dog, thanks for an excellent post. You shame the pro reporters and pretty much most of us around here. Most info-packed report in years.

[PromoTheRobot]

 

 

I know you get your kicks for slamming fans' opinions without offering your own analysis. But this organization is not being judged by how they perform relative to fans whims. They are judged relative to how good NFL programs are run. So while you can continue to troll out the Incognito straw man, the reality is that on the football field, the Bills OL play has regressed a ton, despite still having 4/5 of the line on the roster that looked sort of decent during Gailey's tenure.

I know how you get your kicks.

[Kelly the Dog]

Don't forget his other job over that time span: guest starring in the Ivan Reitman classic DRAFT DAY:

 

A scene stealer for sure.

 

Reminds me, as an actor, somewhat of an older Kiko Alonzo. Not quite the chops but you can sense the inner turmoil and subtext with every move he doesn't make.

[Deranged Rhino]

A scene stealer for sure.

 

Reminds me, as an actor, somewhat of an older Kiko Alonzo. Not quite the chops but you can sense the inner turmoil and subtext with every move he doesn't make.

 

:lol:

[GG]

I know how you get your kicks.

 

Par for the course.

[Coach Tuesday]

Par for the course.

 

One of these years, we may get a post from him containing actual, substantive, football-related content, but I'm not holding my breath...

[Orton's Arm]

Was lucky enough to watch the early games in LA with Doug Whaley this morning where we watch the games every Sunday. It was great. Thanks to AKC and Matt for setting it up. He didn't really say all that much that was controversial. We got to spend a few hours with him though. Had some wings and some drinks at 10 am. Was there with his wife and brother who were terrific, too.

 

First of all, what a great guy. Just as you would imagine. He just introduced himself to anyone who walked up to him as "Hi, I'm Doug." No pretension whatsoever. Really impressive guy.

 

He didn't say anything I was really surprised by. The most interesting thing was he said Orton at practice is yelling at the receivers, and told them if they weren't trying and open in practice he wasn't throwing to them in the game. And they all smartened up quick. That was great. Which led him to say that EJ tries to please everyone and is too nice, and any leader in any business has to be a dick sometimes, and EJ isn't at that point yet.

 

Other tidbits:

 

Loves Robert Woods, couldn't stop talking about him.

 

Thinks it will be hard to re-sign Spikes. Really wants to re-sign Hughes but has no idea how it will go. Agreed that if they look at it as paying the front seven instead of four, it can be rationalized.

 

Loves Aaron Williams and that was the reason they didn't try harder to re-sign Byrd.

 

Said Mike Williams trade thing really was all his agent but he's not happy he's not playing. He wouldn't bite when I challenged him about Williams, Watkins and Woods are better than Hogan. I couldn't read him on that. But we talked about him getting the four guys Watkins, Williams, Woods and Goodwin who all do different things well and it hasn't worked out that way. He also said that they didn't know they would be able to get Watkins when they got Williams so he went from being thought of as a #1 guy to kind of 2a.

 

Loves Preston Brown. That's why they won't overpay for Spikes, who will probably want a good contract and to play three downs.

 

Wants to upgrade TE but like everyone, knows they aren't a lot of good ones.

 

He does not particularly like New England or any of Massachusetts. Ha. That was pretty funny.

 

He loves living in Buffalo and said it's a known fact around the league that players hate coming to Buffalo and then hate leaving it.

 

Definitely building the Bills after the Steeler teams that he grew up with. Then said they couldn't take the next step until they got Big Ben.

 

He spends four to five days a week on the road scouting, he's visiting five different schools in five days this week. Talk about how college coaches will let him know when a player of theirs is trouble, without ever saying it. Mostly because they have to do the same thing with high school coaches about players they are recruiting.

 

He doesn't like Jameis Winston as the face of a franchise at all.

 

Loves Kiko obviously, who he says is healing fast.

 

Said when they were looking for a coach, him and Buddy and Overdorf and Russ got together and came up with an idea of what kind of guy they wanted, before they started talking about any specific guy. And they started with didn't want a retread, wanted a young guy who could be there 20 years, wanted someone out of the box, wanted a tough guy, and they liked Marrone because he fit every one of their criterion. Which would also explain them wanting Chip Kelly who also fit all of them.

 

Said the only time he was ever nervous at a game was visiting Oakland because he was scared walking through the parking lot. Ha.

 

He wanted the Dolphins to lose but understood both sides of the argument.

 

Great day and just a great guy. Perfect ambassador for the Bills. His brother watches the games with us on Sunday in LA. Nothing earth-shattering, and he was diplomatic as you'd expect when I asked him hard questions but he answered them well. Couldn't have been more impressed with him.

 

> they liked Marrone because he fit every one of their criterion

 

From reading your description, Doug Whaley sounds like a good guy. I like the fact he was open and candid, unpretentious, and that he took time out of his busy schedule to visit with the LA Bills Backers. I imagine that if I got to know Doug, I'd come away with a positive opinion of him as a human being.

 

However, there are two things you've written which reinforced my concerns about his ability to be a good general manager. The first is his endorsement of Marrone. A head coach should be very creative and innovative. Bill Belichick and Bill Walsh were two of the best head coaches ever, in large part because they were smarter and more creative than their peers. What you've written leads me to believe that Whaley didn't mention that he was looking for an exceptional level of intelligence or creativity on the part of his next head coaching hire. Marrone/Hackett certainly didn't display those traits during their time together at Syracuse. Marrone may have fit all the criteria they were looking for, but didn't fit all the criteria for which they should have been looking!

 

An equally serious concern is the fact Whaley is still high on E.J. Manuel. The two most important factors he should be looking at in a quarterback are throwing accuracy and rapid information processing ability. Manuel displayed neither trait in college. He hasn't displayed those traits in the NFL. Just because a guy has good physical tools and interviews well, doesn't mean you should make him your quarterback of the future!

 

On a personal level, I'd hate to see a likable guy get fired. But as a Bills fan, I want what's best for the franchise. If he uses the wrong process to pick head coaches, quarterbacks, and (apparently) second round offensive tackles, he's probably not going to outperform the other GMs around the league. The Bills are extremely unlikely to bring home a Lombardi Trophy until Whaley is replaced.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

But did they really learn from their (admitted) mistake? The very next offseason, they brought in Chris Williams to be the solution at LG. He had a history of back issues, and predictably is now shelved with back issues. They also failed to draft a QB and lucked out when Orton was sitting there a week or two before the season. These guys need to learn how to spread out their bets...

 

I agree with you about the Chris Williams back issues. That's a Moeaki thing - the injury issues are known, you need a (pardon the phrase) back-up plan

 

I believe the story line that says they were negotiating with Orton all along. I don't believe it was "oh, he's sitting there, let's sign him". (I think the price they were willing to pay may have gone up to meet what Orton was willing to sign for, as EJ's lack of readiness became more and more apparent.)

 

I'm not sure I understand the "failed to draft a QB" comment. What would you have liked to see?

Edited November 5, 2014 by Hopeful