34-78-83 Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 Seems to me like most people around here and in the media have decided it was a foregone conclusion that Whaley and Marrone had planned on starting EJ from day one and that Kevin Kolb was just brought in to be a veteran presence/mentor. I'm quite certain the Bills brain trust wanted to see a real QB competition during preseason 2013 and they were probably secretly hoping that Kolb would perform well enough to be the starter, thus buying EJ some time to observe and develop at a reasonable pace. There is no way on God's green earth that experienced talent evaluators like Whaley and Nix saw EJ as an NFL ready QB. I think they saw a guy with great physical tools and a great work ethic who needed some grooming. Kolb slipping on the mat and then getting that concussion completely derailed that plan and EJ was forced to step in and momentum just drove the situation from there. It seems to be an accepted fact that the Bills made a huge mistake signing Kolb due to his injury history but I think that opinion is convenient Monday morning quarterbacking. EJ would have had a much better shot at success if he would have had to win his job rather than getting it by default through injury and Kolb was signed to be the bridge QB to facilitate that. Unfortunately fate did not allow that to happen. Hopefully he will now have a chance to win his job back by earning it and his next opportunity won't come via injury. intelligent post. Thanks... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eball Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 I would have had no problem with this, but it takes two to tango. He did not want to re-structure his contract. In an ideal world, Fitz and Bills would have re-structured his contract, he would have stayed with the Bills, and the Bills would have had more time to develop a young QB. The timing was also horrible, as it came right after Buddy Nix fell for the old "your refrigerator is running" phone prank and basically trashed Fitz to the Tampa GM. Fitz knew at that point how he was viewed and decided to move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PS 56 Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 Correct, and by extension deciding to cut Fitz in the first place, when the next best available QB would have been Kolb. Hind sight being 20-20, Cutting Fritz was a dumb move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 I would have had no problem with this, but it takes two to tango. He did not want to re-structure his contract. In an ideal world, Fitz and Bills would have re-structured his contract, he would have stayed with the Bills, and the Bills would have had more time to develop a young QB. It's not an ideal world, and Fitz didn't have to agree to anything because he had more options than Bills did if they cut him. He played his cards far better than the Bils. Hind sight being 20-20, Cutting Fritz was a dumb move. This is not really hindsight. Even at the time, it was clearly a stupid reactionary move based on the available alternatives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
34-78-83 Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 Fitz cut himself after hearing what Nix had to say about him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddogblitz Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 I would have had no problem with this, but it takes two to tango. He did not want to re-structure his contract. Why should he "re-structure" his contract? I know what I'd do if my boss told me we still want you to work here, only for less money. Besides, cap room was not an issue. Dougs blew it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
judman Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 Grooming EJ behind Kolb (now Orton) was (is) the right move. I just hope he is not as fragile as so many believe he is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
May Day 10 Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 (edited) how do you "groom" a QB? why isnt it necessary with any of these other guys who seem to show better flashes than EJ, and who on the Bills staff or roster is anywhere near qualified to "groom" an NFL QB? I can see it if you are following a legend, or are coming into a tried and true well established offensive system. This system was built around Manuel's "strengths" and weaknesses. Theoretically, all the film, homework, reps, etc can be accomplished while also playing and actually be invaluable. Watching from the sideline does nothing with the amount of film out there, and reps are limited and the starter get the lion's share. IMO EJ is all but done as a starter. This signals it. He isnt going to somehow un-do all the deficiencies he has had since college. Pegula is going to come in and whether its Brandon/Whaley or new guys... its going to be find me a QB at all costs. I cant picture them dwelling on EJ. Edited October 2, 2014 by May Day 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Dog Named Kelso Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 how do you "groom" a QB? why isnt it necessary with any of these other guys who seem to show better flashes than EJ, and who on the Bills staff or roster is anywhere near qualified to "groom" an NFL QB? I can see it if you are following a legend, or are coming into a tried and true well established offensive system. This system was built around Manuel's "strengths" and weaknesses. Theoretically, all the film, homework, reps, etc can be accomplished while also playing and actually be invaluable. Watching from the sideline does nothing with the amount of film out there, and reps are limited and the starter get the lion's share. IMO EJ is all but done as a starter. This signals it. He isnt going to somehow un-do all the deficiencies he has had since college. Pegula is going to come in and whether its Brandon/Whaley or new guys... its going to be find me a QB at all costs. I cant picture them dwelling on EJ. Jaws has disputed this. He has said that yes a QB can get better by doing drills and by discussing different situations that arise with a veteran QB. I take his word on whether or not it can be done. Why should he "re-structure" his contract? I know what I'd do if my boss told me we still want you to work here, only for less money. Besides, cap room was not an issue. Dougs blew it. This ... It doesn't hurt for them to ask but once it was clear he wasn't going to accept it they should have just bit the bullet and kept him on as his contract was. He would have started last year and most likely this year. He was getting middling starter money anyways. "Huge Contract" is hardly accurate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 how do you "groom" a QB? why isnt it necessary with any of these other guys who seem to show better flashes than EJ, and who on the Bills staff or roster is anywhere near qualified to "groom" an NFL QB? Theoretically, all the film, homework, reps, etc can be accomplished while also playing and actually be invaluable. Watching from the sideline does nothing with the amount of film out there, and reps are limited and the starter get the lion's share. IMO EJ is all but done as a starter. This signals it. He isnt going to somehow un-do all the deficiencies he has had since college. Pegula is going to come in and whether its Brandon/Whaley or new guys... its going to be find me a QB at all costs. I cant picture them dwelling on EJ. This couldn't be further from the truth. Watching from the sidelines while being plugged into real time play calls, audibles, and other adjustments, along with being present while photo analysis is being done between series, lends itself to a unique experience apart from just breaking down film in a classroom. All of this can serve to help Manuel acquire some of the mental aspects of the position which can assist him in making quicker and smarter decisions when the time comes. In the meantime, coaches can continue to work on his mechanics, etc without the pressure of needing to incorporate them in game action right away. There is definite value in "holding the clipboard" and all of us would have been just fine with this approach when Manuel was supposed to have his redshirt year last season. The only difference is he has 14 games under his belt vs. none. I can see how it's magnified in the fans' and media's eyes given the nature of the position and the commitment to Manuel as the starter but, at the end of the day, it's simply benching a player who wasn't ready and who showed marked regression the last two weeks as a result. GO BILLS!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsVet Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 It's hard to disagree with this. Who in their right mind puts faith in Kolb to do anything? Hard to believe that after a year and a half (for Whaley) of mis-managing the QB situation, could they possibly get lucky as hell if Orton can get the job done? Sometimes teams get lucky. And sometimes teams get lucky in their quest for a QB. I'm not going to go crazy and expect the guy to throw for 300 yards every game, but a look at his starts going back to 2010 (when he did start) show that he's capable to make plays. And given the weapons he's got and experience, I don't think it's insane to expect some W's as a result. Cautiously optimistic on Orton at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manther Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 I would have had no problem with this, but it takes two to tango. He did not want to re-structure his contract. In an ideal world, Fitz and Bills would have re-structured his contract, he would have stayed with the Bills, and the Bills would have had more time to develop a young QB. Just because Fitz wouldn't restructure his contract didn't mean we had to cut him? I think folks get confused thinking the two went hand in hand. IF I was to guess, which means nothing, the Bills went to Fitz to ask him to restructure and things got personal and heated. Fitz wanting out and the Bills not trying hard to get his head on straight and just come back for the contract that was owed. The Bills were in the driver seat and most likely didn't do the driving. Just a guess. Sometimes teams get lucky. And sometimes teams get lucky in their quest for a QB. I'm not going to go crazy and expect the guy to throw for 300 yards every game, but a look at his starts going back to 2010 (when he did start) show that he's capable to make plays. And given the weapons he's got and experience, I don't think it's insane to expect some W's as a result. Cautiously optimistic on Orton at this point. AND.........he is only 31! Prime age for a QB! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Dog Named Kelso Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 Just because Fitz wouldn't restructure his contract didn't mean we had to cut him? I think folks get confused thinking the two went hand in hand. IF I was to guess, which means nothing, the Bills went to Fitz to ask him to restructure and things got personal and heated. Fitz wanting out and the Bills not trying hard to get his head on straight and just come back for the contract that was owed. The Bills were in the driver seat and most likely didn't do the driving. Just a guess. AND.........he is only 31! Prime age for a QB! This is total speculation but it is repeated over and over. We have no idea what happened other than he was cut and they wanted to restructure his deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dollars 2 donuts Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 (edited) I would have had no problem with this, but it takes two to tango. He did not want to re-structure his contract. In an ideal world, Fitz and Bills would have re-structured his contract, he would have stayed with the Bills, and the Bills would have had more time to develop a young QB. I agree with mountainwampus's post. Additionally, I wouldn't have restructured his contract. He was a starter in this league and was most likely still going to be a starter in this league for the Bills in 2013, until he wasn't anymore; then you worry about his contract, especially considering the room we had and still have. The man, if you believe his comments and I do, wanted a shot at still being the starter which he should have been afforded. Really, how much difference were we talking about between what Fitz ( a known commodity) was going to get paid in 2013 as opposed to the money that Kolb (an unknown commodity) got? If the base salary difference was 5-6 million then isn't it worth it for insurance? I hope Orton does well, but I really could have lived with Fitz starting this weekend against Lions, even given his limitations...with EJ being groomed in the background if he hadn't taken over by this time. Edited October 2, 2014 by dollars 2 donuts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 (edited) To respond to a few of you: I have no problem with the Bills wanting to re-structure Fitz's contract. I would have done the same thing. As to whether Fitz made the right decision: He is making less money than Kyle Orton and has been with three teams in the past three years (counting the last year with the Bills). He had been with the Bills for four years and could have re-structured to stay with the Bills and perhaps finish his career with the Bills and further cement his relationship with a community that he and his family loved. His son is still a Bills fan. Instead, he resumed being a vagabond. I don't begrudge Fitz for what he did. He is a smart guy and made the decision that he thought was best for him and his family. I wonder when all is said and done, if he had it to do all over again, whether he would have made the same decision. Edited October 2, 2014 by Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 Seems to me like most people around here and in the media have decided it was a foregone conclusion that Whaley and Marrone had planned on starting EJ from day one and that Kevin Kolb was just brought in to be a veteran presence/mentor. Yes....this is correct. In his 6 prior seasons, Kolb participated in only 34 games (only 21 as starter). He is the definition of a career backup QB. To think that the FO drafted a QB in the 1st round and then brought in a journeyman backup...to be the starter ahead of their new rookie QB....well, that is completely unbelievable to me. Also, even if Kolb had not lost that battle with the bottle---oops!, that rubber floor pad---and he instead lost the "QB" battle in EJ's rookie preseason, EJ would still be exactly where he is today--on the bench. So none of this matters re: the team's oringinal intent with Kolb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bocephuz Posted October 2, 2014 Author Share Posted October 2, 2014 I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that EJ would have benefitted by sitting out his first year and watching and learning from a Vet more than jumping into the fire. Whether or not that would have been enough for him to evolve his game to the point where he could be an effective starter in year 2?? Who knows?? Maybe he will never figure it out?? However, any sort of grooming would have been beneficial and would have given him better odds of succeeding than the way that it has played out so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that EJ would have benefitted by sitting out his first year and watching and learning from a Vet more than jumping into the fire. Whether or not that would have been enough for him to evolve his game to the point where he could be an effective starter in year 2?? Who knows?? Maybe he will never figure it out?? However, any sort of grooming would have been beneficial and would have given him better odds of succeeding than the way that it has played out so far. Learning from Kolb? A guy who spent his carrer watching others play football? That's a novel idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyC81 Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 What is more concerning is that EJ Manuel did outlay Kolb.......but for some reason is still sitting in a "protect the QB from himself" type offense and mentality.........the good news is I dont think Orton is gonna tolerate that like a young rookie would. and they are gonna give Orton more latitude BECAUSE he is a long time veteran But remember last year they came up with the brilliant idea of not only throwing an extensive playbook at EJ but also trying to play fast. They eventually slowed things down and streamlined the plays. So at the start of training camp we hear that they modified the offense and early on felt they were throwing too much at EJ. Duh! Then they said they were going to try and play fast again. They sure weren't setting him up to succeed. I guess if they play faster he doesn't have time to think and just reacts but that didn't seem to work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bocephuz Posted October 2, 2014 Author Share Posted October 2, 2014 Yes....this is correct. In his 6 prior seasons, Kolb participated in only 34 games (only 21 as starter). He is the definition of a career backup QB. To think that the FO drafted a QB in the 1st round and then brought in a journeyman backup...to be the starter ahead of their new rookie QB....well, that is completely unbelievable to me. Also, even if Kolb had not lost that battle with the bottle---oops!, that rubber floor pad---and he instead lost the "QB" battle in EJ's rookie preseason, EJ would still be exactly where he is today--on the bench. So none of this matters re: the team's oringinal intent with Kolb. 59% comp percentage / 20 tds/ 6 Ints/ 2,900 yds... Do you think that would have been enough QB production to win 8 or 9 games for the Bills last year? Those are Kolb's numbers from the 6 games he played in 2012 with Arizona before he got hurt( extrapolated out over a year.. which of course we know is conjecture..but reasonable conjecture). Not exactly Peyton Manning numbers.. but good enough to be a bridge QB for a year while the young team and QB develops and learns. Nobody is saying Kevin Kolb isn't / wasn't a journeyman.. It does matter what Whaley and Nix's intent/plan was because it speaks to whether or not they are competent.. and whether or not Whaley will be a competent GM going forward. Based on the other talent they have drafted/acquired through free agency I find it hard to believe that they thought EJ was an NFL ready QB.. I have to believe they thought he was a project. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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