TC fights, ineffectual play, is Marrone losing the team?

[Stenbar]

If the internet didn't exist, this won't be a story. The only people who are considered about this have never played football in their level. This happens at like 75% of camps.

Right on..I would be much more worried about the fact our 1st team offense hasn't scored a TD yet, and our replacement at safety isn't even close to half the player we let walk....

[PromoTheRobot]

Right on..I would be much more worried about the fact our 1st team offense hasn't scored a TD yet, and our replacement at safety isn't even close to half the player we let walk....

 

Where did this come from? I thought we were doing well at safety?

[TXBILLSFAN]

I don't get hung up on the fights at practice, I'm more concerned that Marrone does. Fights happen all the time, especially at camp, and this has been a long camp and the players are sick of the routine.

 

It's the on-the-field product we should be concerning ourselves with, I wouldn't read too much into the fights unless it translates to a undisciplined team that gets penalized a lot or players not working well with each other.

 

It's football, you want a little crazy and a lot of controlled aggression.

[BillsVet]

Neither do you. . I'm looking forward to what you will complain about after our SB victory!

 

I'd take a playoff victory at this point, even if the offense can't score and it takes 3 Dan Carpenter FG's and a INT returned for a TD by Brandon Spikes to do it.

[1B4IDie]

 

This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. If there wasn't an internet this wouldn't be news? Huh?

 

The NFL is more wildly popular than ever before. Off-season, preseason, regular season, repeat. There's stuff going on practically 365 days a year and the demand for NFL news and content is only growing.

 

But it's sophistry to simply say fights happen "at like 75% of camps" so there's ostensibly no issue here. In reality, there's a coach who's telling the team something and some have openly criticized him. That's news whether there's an internet or not.

Incorrect.

 

The posters is simply saying that the overload in information has turned a simple disciplinary action by a coach, run wind sprints, into some type of episode of a soap opera.

 

Hughes says "that's what you get 31 days in Pads." Marrone immediately addresses the comment, a team captain addresses the player, thenHughes and the coach discuss after practice.

 

This is a complete non-event that is being so over analyzed that he has turned from drama to comedy.

Edited August 22, 2014 by Why So Serious?

[Cynical]

Wasn't Tom Brady screaming at Bill O'Brien a few years ago? That seems a little worse than what is going with the Bills.

 

A one time incident. During a game. Was there anymore incidents prior to or after that one? No?

So, it was a one time occurrence. An outlier.

 

If you need a good point of reference, think about the 1989 Bickering Bills.

Kelly calling out Balllard? An eyebrow raiser for sure, but not really an indicator in itself.

Thomas calling out Kelly? Another eyebrow raiser. Again, in of itself, not really an indicator.

Coaches getting into a brawl? Yet, another eyebrow raiser. In of itself, not really an indicator.

 

If only ONE of those instances had taken place during the season, nobody is referring to the 1989 team as the Bickering Bills.

But all 3 happened (including other nonsense). That means there was a pattern of behavior that pointed to something bigger that was going on.

 

The comments by Jackson by themselves are nothing.

The first comments by Hughes by themselves are nothing.

The whole team running sprints because of fighting by itself is probably nothing.

The incident of Hughes directly challenging/disagreeing with Marrone by itself means nothing.

 

All of these happened? Something is going on. It may not manifest itself into anything more, but something is going on.

 

Again, if you've ever played football at any level, this happens all the time. Ws epically during training camp.

 

Feel free to individually analyze each and every incident separately.

In doing so, feel free to conclude that since each incident by itself is minor, as a whole, it's minor.

 

Some of us will continue to look to see if anymore minor problems keep popping up.

Because we realize, a bunch of minor things can suddenly turn into something major.

[C.Biscuit97]

 

 

A one time incident. During a game. Was there anymore incidents prior to or after that one? No?

So, it was a one time occurrence. An outlier.

 

If you need a good point of reference, think about the 1989 Bickering Bills.

Kelly calling out Balllard? An eyebrow raiser for sure, but not really an indicator in itself.

Thomas calling out Kelly? Another eyebrow raiser. Again, in of itself, not really an indicator.

Coaches getting into a brawl? Yet, another eyebrow raiser. In of itself, not really an indicator.

 

If only ONE of those instances had taken place during the season, nobody is referring to the 1989 team as the Bickering Bills.

But all 3 happened (including other nonsense). That means there was a pattern of behavior that pointed to something bigger that was going on.

 

The comments by Jackson by themselves are nothing.

The first comments by Hughes by themselves are nothing.

The whole team running sprints because of fighting by itself is probably nothing.

The incident of Hughes directly challenging/disagreeing with Marrone by itself means nothing.

 

All of these happened? Something is going on. It may not manifest itself into anything more, but something is going on.

 

 

 

Feel free to individually analyze each and every incident separately.

In doing so, feel free to conclude that since each incident by itself is minor, as a whole, it's minor.

 

Some of us will continue to look to see if anymore minor problems keep popping up.

Because we realize, a bunch of minor things can suddenly turn into something major.

 

With all due respect, I think this is something very minor than has been made major by a few people. Players female dog about coaches. Besides this 2 "instances", have you remembered a player getting mad at Marrone? Stevie Johnson has said positive things about Marrone since he's been traded.

 

And IMO, this is completely different than the Bickering Bills. Kelly called out a teammates. Players get mad at coaches but it's still their job. They will be out of the league if they don't produce. If anything, stuff like this brings teams together.

 

If Marrone fails as a coach, it will have very little to do with being "too tough on players." He will fail because he picked the wrong qb and didn't win enough.

[Rocky Landing]

I have enjoyed reading through this thread, and reading the opinions of pessimists, optimists, and realists alike. But, I do wish this thread had been started by someone other than a person who exhibits such disdain for the players. Certainly, fights during practice, while not uncommon in the league, are not the most productive, or encouraging moments of the offseason. But, the notion that this is endemic of a team that would not be capable of winning more than two games in a season is beyond defeatist. And, the OP's continued assertion that he wishes an 0-16 season (when we have no first round pick to look forward to), is offensive to every fan, and spits in the face of every player.

[dave mcbride]

With all due respect, I think this is something very minor than has been made major by a few people. Players female dog about coaches. Besides this 2 "instances", have you remembered a player getting mad at Marrone? Stevie Johnson has said positive things about Marrone since he's been traded.

 

And IMO, this is completely different than the Bickering Bills. Kelly called out a teammates. Players get mad at coaches but it's still their job. They will be out of the league if they don't produce. If anything, stuff like this brings teams together.

 

If Marrone fails as a coach, it will have very little to do with being "too tough on players." He will fail because he picked the wrong qb and didn't win enough.

 

I think you may be a bit too pollyanna-ish about this. It may be nothing, but cherrypicking the episodes where it didn't hurt the team is a misleading way to argue. I'm absolutely convinced that that sort of coaching style can wear thin, and there are lots exampes (i.e., Schiano). I certainly don't think Marrone is anywhere near Schiano on the Captain Queeg-o-meter, so I'm not too worried. But it is the case that there are plenty of examples over the years of team dissension/fighting leading to problems and - eventually - coach firings. It was a real problem with the Raiders, if memory serves, and Gruden's ultimate undoing in Tampa boiled down to that sort of stuff.

 

Another thing: I'd leave the Belichik/Brady Pats out of arguments like this. They are the very definition of an outlier - a team with an unfireable coach that averages a dozen wins over a 13 year period. The Bills are obviously very, very far from that model. They have been in the struggling lower mid-tier for over a dozen years - a tier that sees lots and lots of firings and lots and lots of player turnover year after year.

Edited August 22, 2014 by dave mcbride

[What a Tuel]

Can someone provide an exact quote of Jackson's "disrespect", and apparent mutiny on Marrone? I assume it was when he criticized practicing with Pittsburgh.

 

I mean I keep seeing Jackson getting paired up with Hughes as if they are the leaders of some insurrection, so it would be nice to get the quote. Google revealed nothing.

 

Regardless, these guys have practiced a lot, played 3 preseason games, and still have 2 more to go. I know they are paid for this, but give them a break if they want to vent a little. Geez.

Edited August 22, 2014 by What a Tuel

[YoloinOhio]

Can someone provide an exact quote of Jackson's "disrespect", and apparent mutiny on Marrone? I assume it was when he criticized practicing with Pittsburgh.

 

I mean I keep seeing Jackson getting paired up with Hughes as if they are the leaders of some insurrection, so it would be nice to get the quote. Google revealed nothing.

 

Regardless, these guys have practiced a lot, played 3 preseason games, and still have 2 more to go. I know they are paid for this, but give them a break if they want to vent a little. Geez.

jackson told the media a couple weeks ago, when asked if he was excited about the 2 joint practices with the steelers, said he wasn't. Because he felt like it was 2 extra games. It was after a practice where they had played an away game less than 24 hours prior. He was cranky.

 

Btw why is it Marrone's fault they had joint practices? Seems like the majority of teams did this, and some did it more than once. I think Houston practiced with both Atlanta and Denver. What does it have to do with Marrone being pissed at them for fighting?hughes is the only one who said anything and from what I can tell no one backed him up.

Edited August 22, 2014 by YoloinOhio

[BigPappy]

I'm not even going to pretend to know what this team will do in respect to their record. They could go 2-14 or 14-2. and I can see the possibility of both outcomes. Is one outcome more likely then the other? Of course, but Before you laugh, let me explain.

 

We all know that this team has pretty much sucked the last 14 years or so. But no one circles the wagons like Buffalo. With the death of RW and the Cancer battle that Jimbo has been fighting, this team has a few things to fight for and that "fight" can be seen with the emotional outbursts along with a few fists flying during practice. I remember in the day of Jim, Bruce, Thurman, Andre....etc, emotions ran high then and fights happened on occasion during practice then.To me, seeing this kind of emotion from our team is a good thing.

 

The flip side of this argument is as what many of you have already have said. This team looks like they are lost. The starting group can score, the OC doesn't seem to know how to call a game, and on and on and on....yada yada yada. I'm not going to continue with listing the problems...it's depressing.

 

The real question is this.....When the season starts who's going to show up? The team with piss and vinegar in their veins that had all that emotion in camp that has something to play for (ie RW and Jimbo), or the flat listless team that can't seem to put anything together.

 

BigPappy

[C.Biscuit97]

 

 

I think you may be a bit too pollyanna-ish about this. It may be nothing, but cherrypicking the episodes where it didn't hurt the team is a misleading way to argue. I'm absolutely convinced that that sort of coaching style can wear thin, and there are lots exampes (i.e., Schiano). I certainly don't think Marrone is anywhere near Schiano on the Captain Queeg-o-meter, so I'm not too worried. But it is the case that there are plenty of examples over the years of team dissension/fighting leading to problems and - eventually - coach firings. It was a real problem with the Raiders, if memory serves, and Gruden's ultimate undoing in Tampa boiled down to that sort of stuff.

 

Another thing: I'd leave the Belichik/Brady Pats out of arguments like this. They are the very definition of an outlier - a team with an unfireable coach that averages a dozen wins over a 13 year period. The Bills are obviously very, very far from that model. They have been in the struggling lower mid-tier for over a dozen years - a tier that sees lots and lots of firings and lots and lots of player turnover year after year.

 

If Brady didn't turn into one of the great Qbs ever, Belichick was probably getting fired. If EJ turns into a solid to good qb, this is probably a playoff team. No one would care about this. It would go down with people complaining about Mario Williams missing training camp practice last year.

 

As hard we try to make winning out to be, it's all about your qb. Schiano destroyed his QB's confidence last year. The better your overall team, the less pressure it puts on your qb. So if EJ is an above average starter, Marrone will be a good coach. If not, he probably will be fired.

 

jackson told the media a couple weeks ago, when asked if he was excited about the 2 joint practices with the steelers, said he wasn't. Because he felt like it was 2 extra games. It was after a practice where they had played an away game less than 24 hours prior. He was cranky.

 

Btw why is it Marrone's fault they had joint practices? Seems like the majority of teams did this, and some did it more than once. I think Houston practiced with both Atlanta and Denver. What does it have to do with Marrone being pissed at them for fighting?hughes is the only one who said anything and from what I can tell no one backed him up.

 

It's the media and select fans. You need to create stories at training camp.

[atlbillsfan1975]

When the Bills hired Marrone i recall saying Doug F%*&ing Marrone??!

 

Things like this make me think i was right. Hopefully it will be a growing experience and bring the guys closer. Hughes talkig back was not good, but if him and Marrone spoke and cleared the air, good.

 

I will go on record like others have, the O better get it's poop together. Or Marrone and Hackett will lose this team.

[dave mcbride]

If Brady didn't turn into one of the great Qbs ever, Belichick was probably getting fired. If EJ turns into a solid to good qb, this is probably a playoff team. No one would care about this. It would go down with people complaining about Mario Williams missing training camp practice last year.

 

As hard we try to make winning out to be, it's all about your qb. Schiano destroyed his QB's confidence last year. The better your overall team, the less pressure it puts on your qb. So if EJ is an above average starter, Marrone will be a good coach. If not, he probably will be fired.

 

 

 

It's the media and select fans. You need to create stories at training camp.

 

As I said, leave the Pats out of this. As it so happens, they succeeded immediately with Brady, and have been dominant for 13 years. They are not a good example in a debate about this issue. You're also evading the point by focusing on an outlier. A better way to go about this is to look at comparable franchises - struggling mid-tier and lower mid-tier franchises that oscillated between either bad and decent or bad and mediocre: the Dolphins, the Raiders, the Lions, the Vikings, the Cowboys, the Texans, the Jaguars, the Chiefs, the Redskins, etc.

Edited August 22, 2014 by dave mcbride

[1B4IDie]

Here are the training camp awards:

 

 

[sarcasm] Marrone is just pandering to Jerry Hughes by giving him an award!!!! He has no control over the team!!!!

The Bills are dooooooomeeeed!!!! [/sarcasm]

[What a Tuel]

jackson told the media a couple weeks ago, when asked if he was excited about the 2 joint practices with the steelers, said he wasn't. Because he felt like it was 2 extra games. It was after a practice where they had played an away game less than 24 hours prior. He was cranky.

 

Btw why is it Marrone's fault they had joint practices? Seems like the majority of teams did this, and some did it more than once. I think Houston practiced with both Atlanta and Denver. What does it have to do with Marrone being pissed at them for fighting?hughes is the only one who said anything and from what I can tell no one backed him up.

 

This is what I figured. Season needs to start, people are getting antsy as usual.

[YoloinOhio]

Here are the training camp awards:

 

 

[sarcasm] Marrone is just pandering to Jerry Hughes by giving him an award!!!! He has no control over the team!!!!

The Bills are dooooooomeeeed!!!! [/sarcasm]

He obviously hates Woods too.

 

btw these are Chris Brown's awards but you know he doesn't do anything before filtering it through the Bills.

[Heitz]

I have enjoyed reading through this thread, and reading the opinions of pessimists, optimists, and realists alike. But, I do wish this thread had been started by someone other than a person who exhibits such disdain for the players. Certainly, fights during practice, while not uncommon in the league, are not the most productive, or encouraging moments of the offseason. But, the notion that this is endemic of a team that would not be capable of winning more than two games in a season is beyond defeatist. And, the OP's continued assertion that he wishes an 0-16 season (when we have no first round pick to look forward to), is offensive to every fan, and spits in the face of every player.

 

Wow - this guy gets it! to you sir...

[C.Biscuit97]

 

 

As I said, leave the Pats out of this. As it so happens, they succeeded immediately with Brady, and have been dominant for 13 years. They are not a good example in a debate about this issue. You're also evading the point by focusing on an outlier. A better way to go about this is to look at comparable franchises - struggling mid-tier and lower mid-tier franchises that oscillated between either bad and decent or bad and mediocre: the Dolphins, the Raiders, the Lions, the Vikings, the Cowboys, the Texans, the Jaguars, the Chiefs, the Redskins, etc.

 

All those teams have bad to inconsistent Qbs. That's why they aren't good.

 

The Chiefs made the playoffs last year. Reid used to get killed in Philly and now he is beloved in KC. If you win, this stuff gets pointed to as a turning and unitying point for the season. If you lose, Marrone lost the team in camp. It's pretty simple.

 

Let's just play some real games!