LB coach Chuck Driesbach relieved of duties

[4merper4mer]

Difference in philosophy could mean any number of things, including we are simply going in a different direction, and in no way clearly and automatically implies inflexibility.

 

I disagree. The phrase, to me, was inarticulate at best and insulting at worst. The phrase "we are going in another direction" is used so much more frequently that its omission caused me to take note. "Difference in philosophy" certainly implies disagreement about something and you can bet any interviewer will drill down on it in future discussions with Hilliard. Maybe Hilliard deserved it for all I know, but when things start to pile up and Greggo Marrone offers no real candor, then people are going to start to wonder. I'm wondering if he is up to the task. I don't KNOW if he is either way. I HOPE he is up to it. I am beginning to THINK he is not.

 

I understand that Hughes is listed as a LB, and I'm positive that the position coaches work together every day with the players. But Jerry Hughes, for all intents and purposes, lined up as a DE and rushed the passer fabulously, and was usually terrible when asked to do more of the linebacker duties. I don't totally blame or give credit to the coaches on that, the guy is a pure pass rusher. That is his talent and we let him do it. But without knowing who told him or taught him to do what, I don't think much credit at all should go to the LB coach for Jerry Hughes success.

 

I thought Lawson was pretty good, but pretty much as advertised. Smart, skilled, pretty good at everything but not great at anything.

 

Kiko was Kiko. I would like to think Dreisbach played a part in his strong play.

 

Given this, with which players should the Bills have had a higher expectation? Bradham? Moats? That's what I don't get. Crossman not only gets a pass but basically Greggo Marrone goes public to help him by saying the players on ST sucked. Dreisbach is clearly dealt a smaller hand than Crossman from a roster perspective and receives no such favor.

[Mr. WEO]

My point was, position coaches are called in to talk to the coach for all kinds of reasons. And if the Bills, after one month of evaluations (easily enough time to believe that you indeed have been retained and your job is safe) of players and coaches had decided to retain Dreisbach because he was doing such a good job, but wanted him to alter his tact and emphasis from more of A to more of B, they would have called him into their office and explained such to him. You can't honestly believe every time the head coach calls a position coach into his office during the first month or two after the season it's to fire him. I would bet you Anthony Weaver and Jim O'Neil and Donnie Henderson have been called into his office, too in the last month.

 

it's impossible to believe that two things simultaneously happened. 1) He had zero idea

 

I

[Kelly the Dog]

I disagree. The phrase, to me, was inarticulate at best and insulting at worst. The phrase "we are going in another direction" is used so much more frequently that its omission caused me to take note. "Difference in philosophy" certainly implies disagreement about something and you can bet any interviewer will drill down on it in future discussions with Hilliard. Maybe Hilliard deserved it for all I know, but when things start to pile up and Greggo Marrone offers no real candor, then people are going to start to wonder. I'm wondering if he is up to the task. I don't KNOW if he is either way. I HOPE he is up to it. I am beginning to THINK he is not.

My job is parsing words. "Difference in philosophy" is an extremely common phrase, used in all kinds of situations. It's very generic. If one coach wants to always pressure and the other wants calculated pressures for more of a surprise, that is a clear difference of philosophy but doesn't at all imply inflexibility, being inarticulate, or insulting in any manner.

 

I

You

[NoSaint]

 

 

If they did fire Crossman, do you think fans on this board will railroad Marrone for saying that they needed better ST players and then firing the coach?

 

Serious question, but I'm not expecting you to know how every fan will react...just putting it out there as a general question to the masses...

 

not particularly upset. on a personal level, id say that 1) sure we could add talent to the group, but i dont think thatll propel crossman to success unless its a huge amount of resources 2) that coaches say what they need to say and generally are better judged on their actions than a stock answer in an interview.

[4merper4mer]

My job is parsing words. "Difference in philosophy" is an extremely common phrase, used in all kinds of situations. It's very generic. If one coach wants to always pressure and the other wants calculated pressures for more of a surprise, that is a clear difference of philosophy but doesn't at all imply inflexibility, being inarticulate, or insulting in any manner.

 

 

 

I get what you're saying but I disagree. This is mainly because you don't see that phrase used when coaches are dismissed unless there is known acrimony. You can bet Hilliard will be asked to describe this difference in philosophy in his next interview. Question 2 will be why he didn't follow the guidance of his boss. I doubt that will make it easier for him to get a job. I want to be clear that this could be 100% on merit and Greggo Marrone could be right, but it is still different from "we're going in a different direction". The latter phrase points to a change at OBD where the former says "we have our way here and Hilliard didn't fit it". That might be ok, but the finger is pointing away from the coach and his choices again,

 

None of this is a huge deal in isolation but it really isn't in isolation anymore. Dreisbach, Hilliard, Mario's injury in training camp, Dareus' double benching and Crossman all share the common thread of Greggo Marrone taking some action, not be able to explain it, and making sure fingers are being pointed away from him. His fingers mostly.

 

 

 

 

You

 

We

[YoloinOhio]

This was Pettine's decision after evaluating his staff - saw Dreisbach as a weak link and communicated to Marrione,. Marrone did the firing, because that is his job. I am sure it was not easy for any of them but it is business.Especially hard for Pettine. I don't see any issue with this, it happens all the time on every team.

[4merper4mer]

This was Pettine's decision after evaluating his staff - saw Dreisbach as a weak link and communicated to Marrione,. Marrone did the firing, because that is his job. I am sure it was not easy for any of them but it is business.Especially hard for Pettine. I don't see any issue with this, it happens all the time on every team.

 

Did you find that somewhere or are you just speculating?

[Dibs]

Assuming I have all the information correct......

 

Driesbach was a Pettine appoinment. He had no NFL experience and happened to be the person who gave Pettine his first collegiate job. The other LB coach(O'Neil, 4 yrs NFL success with Pettine) also had ties to Driesbach.....and likely had some influence in the deciscion making for the appointment.

 

 

Occam's razor.....Pettine(& O'Neil) thought their old friend had what it takes to make it in the NFL.....but after a year it became clear that he couldn't step up to the next level.

 

I think people are really stretching to find some sort of blame for Marrone in this situation. He trusted his DC's judgement.....things didn't work out as desired......so the error was rectified.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

In the corp world when I see a 61 yr old let go to get more "dynamic", the obvious inference is, need to get more energetic, fresh ideas, adaptability, YOUTH...

 

Add in a football team that s trying to run like a corporation, AND appears to value growing organically.....

 

I don't see any scape goating either...

Edited January 15, 2014 by over 20 years of fanhood

[4merper4mer]

I could buy into the theory here that Pettine initiated this but have seen nothing to indicate its credibility. If someone could provide a link it would be appreciated. It would actually be VERY comforting to know that this was initiated somewhere other than some Greggo Marrone show of power of deflection of attention maneuver.

[4BillsintheBurgh]

Assuming I have all the information correct......

 

Driesbach was a Pettine appoinment. He had no NFL experience and happened to be the person who gave Pettine his first collegiate job. The other LB coach(O'Neil, 4 yrs NFL success with Pettine) also had ties to Driesbach.....and likely had some influence in the deciscion making for the appointment.

 

 

Occam's razor.....Pettine(& O'Neil) thought their old friend had what it takes to make it in the NFL.....but after a year it became clear that he couldn't step up to the next level.

 

I think people are really stretching to find some sort of blame for Marrone in this situation. He trusted his DC's judgement.....things didn't work out as desired......so the error was rectified.

I agree. I think with CD not having an idea there was a problem leads me toward thinking he was doing what he knew from college but it wasn't enough for the NFL. And with 36 years of college coaching, they didn't want to teach the old dog any new tricks.

[C.Biscuit97]

After reading this article, I feel bad for Driesbach. The guy loved it here, and thought that the staff loved him. One would think that there would have to be some kind of warning sign before firing a guy--but maybe that's not how it works in the NFL.

 

http://www.buckscoun...two-bills-drive

 

 

Driesbach raved about his Buffalo experience, calling it “one of the best years of my life.”

 

“The organization was absolutely fabulous,” Driesbach said. “That's why it's so crazy. It was a great experience. I was treated wonderfully by everybody in that building, then this bombshell fell.”

 

Sad article. It's something to keep in mind when yelling for coaches to get fired. For some reason, people lose all touch with reality when it comes to sports. It's ok to yell for a coach to get fired but how would it go over if someone was yelling for an average worker to lose their jobs? These guys all have families and their lives.

 

Bottomline, football is a business. Who knows everything that happened. Seems cold but it happens all the time. Best of luck to him and at least he made it to the NFL.

[Dorkington]

Sad article. It's something to keep in mind when yelling for coaches to get fired. For some reason, people lose all touch with reality when it comes to sports. It's ok to yell for a coach to get fired but how would it go over if someone was yelling for an average worker to lose their jobs? These guys all have families and their lives.

 

Bottomline, football is a business. Who knows everything that happened. Seems cold but it happens all the time. Best of luck to him and at least he made it to the NFL.

 

I hear people B word that others should be fired all the time. Especially when directed at customer service representatives.

 

LET ME SPEAK TO THE MANAGER, I DIDN'T GET EXACTLY WHAT I WANTED WHEN I WANTED IT HOW I WANTED IT! THEY SHOULD BE FIRED FIRED FIRED

Edited January 15, 2014 by Dorkington

[YoloinOhio]

Did you find that somewhere or are you just speculating?

Sorry - I should have led it with "I think" that was what happened. I would not have assumed it would have gone any other way. I don't have insight into the the current Bills regime. One thing I do have is insight into how NFL coaching communication, evaluations, and hirings and firings are generally done. Dreisbach probably didn't have a ton of direct communication with Marrone throughout the season. He worked directly with Pettine. At the end of the year, Pettine does all of the evaluations for his staff and Hackett does them for the offensive staff. Pettine and Dreisbach go way back. Dreisbach gave him his first job, from what I read. I assume Pettine felt they could upgrade at that position and that Dreisbach should not be retained. None of us as fans will know all the details as to why, but there are some obvious ones we can look at. Marrone is the one who communicates the firing. My guess is that Marrone didn't know him that well and it is not uncommon at all for these conversations to be brief and out of the blue. During the season, there is little opportunity for coaches to have "touch base" evaluations, etc. like you might see in a normal workplace. Also, while things might be going "well" during the season when you actually have time to sit down and go through analytics, etc. on a thorough evalaution, compare that to the direction you want to go - you may make a decision that is tough but really aligns with that. Dreisbach may be correct in his speculation that someone else became available as well. I would not be surprised by that. Don't forget that Bill Polian and Chris Polian were dismissed in similar shocking fashion from Indy with no warning or indication that would happen. Yes, they went 2-14 one year without Peyton. That was after 11 years of playoffs with Peyton. It was completely out of the blue. They had almost 2 years left on their contracts. This dismissal of a position coach is not uncommon at all in the NFL and you can tell he realized that. He was just disappointed it happened. The good thing from this is that he didn't speak poorly of the organization, which is usually what you find from guys who are fired. The Bills are not screwing everything up, as many want to keep trying to point out. I too think a change is needed in ST. But I don't know what that change is and I'll leave it to Marrone an the FO to decide and see what differences there are or aren't on the field next season before assuming it is the wrong decision. Edited January 15, 2014 by YoloinOhio

[4merper4mer]

Well I guess Pettine didn't fire this guy after all. Looks like he got scapegoated.

[BEAST MODE BABY!]

This was Pettine's decision after evaluating his staff - saw Dreisbach as a weak link and communicated to Marrione,.

 

Except, you know, Pettine just hired him in Cleveland.

[1B4IDie]

Given the history, Chuck had to be a family friend. You wonder if this was part of the motivation behind moving on early?

[NoSaint]

Given the history, Chuck had to be a family friend. You wonder if this was part of the motivation behind moving on early?

 

It does seem to add a wrinkle to the offseason. Not sure what, if anything, to make of it... But it could be an interesting twist potentially.

[YoloinOhio]

Well I guess Pettine didn't fire this guy after all. Looks like he got scapegoated.

Scapegoated for what? Bad run defense? Maybe he was just held accountable?

 

Except, you know, Pettine just hired him in Cleveland.

So you think it was ALL Marrone's decision? Or, do you think now that he has this new gig, he is going to find it difficult to compile a staff at this point in time and needs to bring in some guys he can trust and had a healthy relationship with? Edited January 25, 2014 by YoloinOhio

[4merper4mer]

Scapegoated for what? Bad run defense? Maybe he was just held accountable?

 

So you think it was ALL Marrone's decision? Or, do you think now that he has this new gig, he is going to find it difficult to compile a staff at this point in time and needs to bring in some guys he can trust and had a healthy relationship with?

 

OMFG make excuses much? If Greggo Marrone wanted accountability then why is Crossman still here? And if Pettine participated in the decision to fire Dreisbach, why would he re-hire him in a few days? I understand that there were fewer choices but that doesn't mean there were no choices. Pettine said he was going to pull his name. If Dreisbach were still here he may have made that decision sooner. None of this is 100% clear, but any way you slice it, it makes Greggo Marrone look bad.

 

I don't know what to make of the Schwantz hire, and what it all means. I will admit to being surprised.

[Numark]

OMFG make excuses much? If Greggo Marrone wanted accountability then why is Crossman still here? And if Pettine participated in the decision to fire Dreisbach, why would he re-hire him in a few days? I understand that there were fewer choices but that doesn't mean there were no choices. Pettine said he was going to pull his name. If Dreisbach were still here he may have made that decision sooner. None of this is 100% clear, but any way you slice it, it makes Greggo Marrone look bad.

 

I don't know what to make of the Schwantz hire, and what it all means. I will admit to being surprised.

:w00t:

 

:worthy:

 

 

 

(that was good)

[K-9]

Why does firing Dreisbach make Marrone look bad? It's his right to hire and fire whomever he wants and for whatever reason. Is it just because Pettine hired him in Cleveland? That has nothing to do with anything. There's a ton of things to question Marrone about but firing a coach isn't one of them.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[YoloinOhio]

OMFG make excuses much? If Greggo Marrone wanted accountability then why is Crossman still here? And if Pettine participated in the decision to fire Dreisbach, why would he re-hire him in a few days? I understand that there were fewer choices but that doesn't mean there were no choices. Pettine said he was going to pull his name. If Dreisbach were still here he may have made that decision sooner. None of this is 100% clear, but any way you slice it, it makes Greggo Marrone look bad.

 

I don't know what to make of the Schwantz hire, and what it all means. I will admit to being surprised.

Yes, I love to make excuses! If/when you calm down about it... Dreisbach had a grand total of 0 years of NFL experience when he joined the Bills. Crossman had 11, with 9 years as a coordinator. Decisions can be made after a year differently for different staff members. Do you honestly think Pettine would have pulled out of the process for a HC position where he was the clear finalist sooner if his old buddy was still with the Bills? With his now 1 year of experience? That helped build the #28 ranked run D? It in no way is any reflection of Marrone. If Marrone held on to an underperforming guy with zero experience just to see if Pettine might stay because of it, that would be lack of accountability. Edited January 26, 2014 by YoloinOhio

[4merper4mer]

Yes, I love to make excuses! If/when you calm down about it... Dreisbach had a grand total of 0 years of NFL experience when he joined the Bills. Crossman had 11, with 9 years as a coordinator. Decisions can be made after a year differently for different staff members. Do you honestly think Pettine would have pulled out of the process for a HC position where he was the clear finalist sooner if his old buddy was still with the Bills? With his now 1 year of experience? That helped build the #28 ranked run D? It in no way is any reflection of Marrone. If Marrone held on to an underperforming guy with zero experience just to see if Pettine might stay because of it, that would be lack of accountability.

 

 

Pettine saw Greggo Marrone fire a guy under Pettine's control. This after one year coaching with no true MLB to help stop the run. Meanwhile Crossman, complete with a decade of failure, is retained after costing the team multiple games. Nobody wanted the Cleveland job due to lack of patience by the management. Meanwhile in Buffalo he was already staring at lack of patience PLUS cronyism. If Dresibach, who Pettine obviously feels can do the job, had been retained, the patience issue would be there in Cleveland only and some of the cronyism stuff would have been less obvious.

[4BillsintheBurgh]

Except, you know, Pettine just hired him in Cleveland.

I am not finding confirmation on this. Not on the browns website, and the only article I see from bucks county does not confirm it.

[Buftex]

 

Pettine saw Greggo Marrone fire a guy under Pettine's control. This after one year coaching with no true MLB to help stop the run. Meanwhile Crossman, complete with a decade of failure, is retained after costing the team multiple games. Nobody wanted the Cleveland job due to lack of patience by the management. Meanwhile in Buffalo he was already staring at lack of patience PLUS cronyism. If Dresibach, who Pettine obviously feels can do the job, had been retained, the patience issue would be there in Cleveland only and some of the cronyism stuff would have been less obvious.

Perhaps Marrone feels more qualified to make the assessment of coaches than some clowns on the internet? Jus a hunch.

[Rockinon]

What if Marrone does his review on Crossman, no different than he reviews any other coach, and comes to the honest conclusion that Crossman deserves another year? What if he realizes full well that Crossman screwed up, but, that he deserves a second chance?

 

That's accountability. Marrone himself is being accountable.

 

Trust me...accountability is not just firing people when everybody knows they screwed up. That's easy, and anyone can do that.

 

It's also: keeping the people you know are quality, when everybody else wants them fired. That's called: holding yourself accountable, as the boss. That's not easy, and that's why not so many can be the boss.

Nice post and very true.

[3rdand12]

Given the history, Chuck had to be a family friend. You wonder if this was part of the motivation behind moving on early?

This is something i would consider. Especially since Marrone knew Mike P had aspirations when coming out under Rex's shadow . He proved he could call a fearsome defense and could unbalance offenses at times.

 

Would not surprise me that a lot of "if this then whats" were discussed by Mike P.and Doug M.and D.Whaley.

These guys harbor no ill will and probably want each other to succeed in the NFL.

just not on the playing field the same day against each other .

So much we may never know behind the scenes.

so far its been a decent and gentlemens transition.

I am impressed so far. Very impressed now that Jim S is in the house !

Go Bills

 

Any one notice Ike Hilliard was picked up fairly quickly ?

[YoloinOhio]

This is something i would consider. Especially since Marrone knew Mike P had aspirations when coming out under Rex's shadow . He proved he could call a fearsome defense and could unbalance offenses at times.

 

Would not surprise me that a lot of "if this then whats" were discussed by Mike P.and Doug M.and D.Whaley.

These guys harbor no ill will and probably want each other to succeed in the NFL.

just not on the playing field the same day against each other .

So much we may never know behind the scenes.

so far its been a decent and gentlemens transition.

I am impressed so far. Very impressed now that Jim S is in the house !

Go Bills

 

Any one notice Ike Hilliard was picked up fairly quickly ?

Yep and that ws to be expected with the Redskins. he had a history with Jay Gruden, and that was where he coached before he came to the Bills.

Hilliard was a volunteer coach with the UFL’s Florida Tuskers in 2009 when Gruden was the OC and was promoted to receivers coach in 2010 after Gruden became the Tuskers’ head coach.

Hilliard also played for Tampa Bay from 2005-08, when Gruden was an assistant coach for the team.

[26CornerBlitz]

@MaryKayCabot

Cleveland Browns hiring former Bills LBs coach Chuck Driesbach http://dlvr.it/4nnJfB

[CodeMonkey]

@MaryKayCabot

Cleveland Browns hiring former Bills LBs coach Chuck Driesbach http://dlvr.it/4nnJfB

This as well as the O'Neil thing make perfect sense given Pettines long history with them both.

[4merper4mer]

@MaryKayCabot

Cleveland Browns hiring former Bills LBs coach Chuck Driesbach http://dlvr.it/4nnJfB

 

i wonder if Greggo Marrone hadn't interjected himself into the successful defense and started firing people while leaving the completely inept special teams alone, if Pettine would still be here. I don't think we'll ever really know. Even if Schwantz is good, which he should be, Pettine's departure wil still cause a bump in the road at the least.

[K-9]

i wonder if Greggo Marrone hadn't interjected himself into the successful defense and started firing people while leaving the completely inept special teams alone, if Pettine would still be here. I don't think we'll ever really know. Even if Schwantz is good, which he should be, Pettine's departure wil still cause a bump in the road at the least.

 

You're suggesting Pettine would have left even if he wasn't hired in Cleveland?

 

GO BILLS!!!

[BEAST MODE BABY!]

So you think it was ALL Marrone's decision? Or, do you think now that he has this new gig, he is going to find it difficult to compile a staff at this point in time and needs to bring in some guys he can trust and had a healthy relationship with?

 

Unless you let someone go for economic reasons (company downsizing), you don't hire them back immediately if you're the one who thought he was a problem. So I am guessing him leaving was more Marrone than anything else. You think differently?

 

In the interview with his home paper, Driesbach said the dismissal completely blindsided him. Since Pettine hired him even before he interviewed O'Neil, I'd say yeah, it probably wasn't Pettine.

 

I am not finding confirmation on this. Not on the browns website, and the only article I see from bucks county does not confirm it.

 

It was mentioned on Twitter, but now it's official:

 

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2014/01/cleveland_browns_hiring_former.html

[Direhard Fan]

Pettine would have stayed if Cleveland fell thru. Been gone next year. We will be fine with Swartze or how you spell it. He will bring some of his own people in and have a good team. Just listened to him on WGR interview. Smart guy and knows the ropes. Has a history with Marrone with respect. Good hire.

[4merper4mer]

You're suggesting Pettine would have left even if he wasn't hired in Cleveland?

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

Not exactly but he wouldn't have been very gruntled if he stayed around because Greggo Marrone just undermined his authority.

[Mr. WEO]

Why does firing Dreisbach make Marrone look bad? It's his right to hire and fire whomever he wants and for whatever reason. Is it just because Pettine hired him in Cleveland? That has nothing to do with anything. There's a ton of things to question Marrone about but firing a coach isn't one of them.

 

GO BILLS!!!

Yes, I love to make excuses! If/when you calm down about it... Dreisbach had a grand total of 0 years of NFL experience when he joined the Bills. Crossman had 11, with 9 years as a coordinator. Decisions can be made after a year differently for different staff members. Do you honestly think Pettine would have pulled out of the process for a HC position where he was the clear finalist sooner if his old buddy was still with the Bills? With his now 1 year of experience? That helped build the #28 ranked run D? It in no way is any reflection of Marrone. If Marrone held on to an underperforming guy with zero experience just to see if Pettine might stay because of it, that would be lack of accountability.

 

All of this begs the question: why did Marrone fire him (for "underpeforming"?) and Pettine quickly hire him?

 

Doesn't it suggest Marrone and Pettine have a "philosophcical difference" regarding (at least) Driesbach? It would seem easy to infer that Pettine disagreed with this guy's firing.

Edited January 27, 2014 by Mr. WEO

[YoloinOhio]

Not exactly but he wouldn't have been very gruntled if he stayed around because Greggo Marrone just undermined his authority.

Who undermined whose authority? Did Pettine not report to the HC... and not the other way around? The Greggo thing, btw... still?

 

All of this begs the question: why did Marrone fire him (for "underpeforming"?) and Pettine quickly hire him?

 

Doesn't it suggest Marrone and Pettine have a "philosophcical difference" regarding (at least) Driesbach? It would seem easy to infer that Pettine disagreed with this guy's firing.

Sure! Looks that way... although Marrone let him have his guy from Tampa ... Edited January 27, 2014 by YoloinOhio

[Mr. WEO]

Who undermined whose authority? Did Pettine not report to the HC... and not the other way around? The Greggo thing, btw... still?

 

Sure! Looks that way... although Marrone let him have his guy from Tampa ...

 

So it is interesting that the strongest unit of the team (easily the D) ends up losing its leader (after a single year--to an organization in chaos), who then rehires the guy Marrone decided had go, and yet the weakest unit on the team (easily STs) sees its leader surviving the purge/exodus.

 

 

This doesn't say anything about Marrone (or at least Marrone/Pettine:2013)?

[YoloinOhio]

So it is interesting that the strongest unit of the team (easily the D) ends up losing its leader (after a single year--to an organization in chaos), who then rehires the guy Marrone decided had go, and yet the weakest unit on the team (easily STs) sees its leader surviving the purge/exodus.

 

 

This doesn't say anything about Marrone (or at least Marrone/Pettine:2013)?

The man took a promotion! Do you think he would have said "No thanks, I love Doug too much!" BTW, MP needs his defensive staff together as soon as humanly possible because he has zilch on the offensive side and he is screwed until he gets that in place with pre-combijne meetings taking place with the other teams in this league this week. If you think Dreisbach was a great coach and Marrone just didn't like him, that's fine. More likely, he is someone Pettine felt comfortable enough with to move forward at least this year, now that he calls the shots, and Marrone felt was able to be upgraded. Edited January 27, 2014 by YoloinOhio