How good was FSU?

[John from Riverside]

I was talking overall. I should have been clearer.

 

David in this situation thats a pretty big distinction

 

How does the all time leading receiver at USC become the SECOND best wideout? Because their new coach wanted to target the other WR more?

 

By the way....its is widely known that the knew USC coach is pretty much an idiot......and Robert Woods pretty much said so on his way out the door......Matt Barkely also regretting not standing up and letting his voice be heard more

 

Robert Woods was the best WR on that team

[Gordio]

No, I meant overall, not "on defense" (although they were more talented on defense than offense). They had a ton of guys drafted in the early rounds and 11 players overall. That's astounding.

 

http://sportsillustr...ker/#schools/35

 

Three of the picks were offensive players (first, second, and fifth rounds - QB, LT, and RB). Alabama had 9 players taken, as did LSU. http://sportsillustr...er/#conferences

 

SI is also already projecting to FSU first round picks on defense next year: http://nfl.si.com/20...nfl-mock-draft/

 

Agreed, FSU was very talented last season. In fact I had them winning the National Championship before the season started partly because of that talent, partly because I knew they were returning Manuel & partly because before the year started I did not see a team on their schedule that they should not beat.

[Kelly the Dog]

David in this situation thats a pretty big distinction

 

How does the all time leading receiver at USC become the SECOND best wideout? Because their new coach wanted to target the other WR more?

 

By the way....its is widely known that the knew USC coach is pretty much an idiot......and Robert Woods pretty much said so on his way out the door......Matt Barkely also regretting not standing up and letting his voice be heard more

 

Robert Woods was the best WR on that team

John, I know you follow USC and watch a lot if not all of their games. I have seen a ton of them, too. Marqis Lee is just phenomenal. I love Woods but I think that Lee is slightly better overall because of his amazing explosiveness, and is probably considered the top WR choice going into next year, which Woods never really was (some would say he was at some point I guess but not like Lee. Woods has a better overall game because he does everything well, but I think Lee is a better overall pro prospect. He's just ridiculous.

 

Amazingly, they're good friends and went to the same high school and then Lee followed Woods to USC. Woods was one year ahead of him. As a senior in HS, Lee had 24 TDs on 57 catches and 1400 yards. As a true freshman he had 73 receptions for 1,143 yards and 11 touchdowns (significantly better than Woods). Their sophomore years were pretty equal. Woods was a finalist for the Biletnikoff award, Lee won it (amazing the first Trojan to win it) They are both great. If I had to choose one, I would take Lee, and I think most GM and coaches would, although not by all that much.

Edited May 1, 2013 by Kelly the Dog

[flutie5]

FSU was good on offense, we had a great o-line. It was spurlock, hudson, mcmahon, datko and sanders. We had some dissappointing games that we shouldn't have lost but thats life. When E.J came in for the injury Ponder for the Clemson game in 2010, he was dominated in that game and it came down to Dusitn Hopkins winning at the end of regulation with a field goal it was fun to watch

[YoloinOhio]

At least we know he can execute a game plan!

[BobChalmers]

If I remember correctly, FSU's receivers couldn't catch a cold in 2011. Hands of stone - and Manuel was also injured part of the season.

 

In fairness to his teammates in 2012 - they also have a young man by the name of James Wilder Jr. (if that rings any bells - it should - if not, you are too young to remember his father, the multi-pro-bowl Buccaneer RB) who is a beast of an RB, but too young for the draft this April.

[FleaMoulds80]

Obviously there's all kinds of exceptions but I think the OP was just pointing out that due to the lack of playmakers at FSU, we don't really know what EJ's ceiling is yet. We saw Geno put up those #'s with super stud Austin and a 3rd rounder in Bailey and Barkley with his two stud WRs and we haven't really seen what EJ can do with guys like that around him.

 

I still don't see the relationship. Ben Roethlisberger, Joe Flacco, Drew Brees, Tom Brady, Andrew Luck are just some names that I can think of off the top of my head that probably had no weapons at all in college. Meanwhile, wasn't Pennington throwing the ball to Randy Moss, but his numbers didn't skyrocket. So regardless of who the QB was throwing the ball to, competent scouts should be able to see talent regardless.

 

This IMO is a bogus statement and makes no sense. If you were talking about WR, it would make more sense. Not QBs

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

 

 

I still don't see the relationship. Ben Roethlisberger, Joe Flacco, Drew Brees, Tom Brady, Andrew Luck are just some names that I can think of off the top of my head that probably had no weapons at all in college. Meanwhile, wasn't Pennington throwing the ball to Randy Moss, but his numbers didn't skyrocket. So regardless of who the QB was throwing the ball to, competent scouts should be able to see talent regardless.

 

This IMO is a bogus statement and makes no sense. If you were talking about WR, it would make more sense. Not QBs

 

Competent scouts are able to do so. That's why Manuel was a first round pick. However there are wannabe scouts in the media blasting the pick, calling Manuel "inconsistent." Maybe the lack of talent around him is part of the reason why these incompetents see it that way. They watch tape but are unable to separate the prospect from the situation the prospect is in.

[C.Biscuit97]

I still don't see the relationship. Ben Roethlisberger, Joe Flacco, Drew Brees, Tom Brady, Andrew Luck are just some names that I can think of off the top of my head that probably had no weapons at all in college. Meanwhile, wasn't Pennington throwing the ball to Randy Moss, but his numbers didn't skyrocket. So regardless of who the QB was throwing the ball to, competent scouts should be able to see talent regardless.

 

This IMO is a bogus statement and makes no sense. If you were talking about WR, it would make more sense. Not QBs

 

Flacco - 5th round TE, Ben Patrick. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Delaware_Fightin'_Blue_Hens_in_the_NFL_Draft Also, a 1-AA school after transferring from Pittsburgh.

 

Big Ben - MAC school. I'm sure Manuel would have put up some decent #s against that competition.

 

Brady - 1st round tackle Jeff Backus, 1st round G Hutchinson, 1st WR David Terrell http://www.mgoblue.com/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/071108aac.html

 

Luck - 1st round G DeCastro, 2nd round TE Fleener, 2nd round TE Ertz, 2nd round LT Martin, 4th round FB Marecic, 6th round wr Whalen, 2nd round RB Gerhardt, 7th TE Dray, 7th FB Lorig. http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/fulldraft?abbr=S&collegeName=Stanford&abbrFlag=0&type=school Doug Baldwin must not have been drafted as he is a former Luck wr as well.

 

Brees- 2nd round T Matt Light, 5th round WR Sutherland, 5th round C Okobi, 7th round T Gorin, http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/fulldraft?abbr=P&collegeName=Purdue&abbrFlag=0&type=school

[dave mcbride]

I still don't see the relationship. Ben Roethlisberger, Joe Flacco, Drew Brees, Tom Brady, Andrew Luck are just some names that I can think of off the top of my head that probably had no weapons at all in college. Meanwhile, wasn't Pennington throwing the ball to Randy Moss, but his numbers didn't skyrocket. So regardless of who the QB was throwing the ball to, competent scouts should be able to see talent regardless.

 

This IMO is a bogus statement and makes no sense. If you were talking about WR, it would make more sense. Not QBs

 

Pennington threw to Moss in his first season at Marshall and put up spectacular numbers for a sophomore (42 TDs). Moss had almost 2000 yards receiving. Pennington was certainly good after Moss left too, but one should expect improvement over time at the QB position. Having Moss on his squad his first season QBing surely helped him greatly.

 

http://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/chad-pennington-1.html

 

Flacco - 5th round TE, Ben Patrick. http://en.wikipedia....n_the_NFL_Draft Also, a 1-AA school after transferring from Pittsburgh.

 

Big Ben - MAC school. I'm sure Manuel would have put up some decent #s against that competition.

 

Brady - 1st round tackle Jeff Backus, 1st round G Hutchinson, 1st WR David Terrell http://www.mgoblue.c.../071108aac.html

 

Luck - 1st round G DeCastro, 2nd round TE Fleener, 2nd round TE Ertz, 2nd round LT Martin, 4th round FB Marecic, 6th round wr Whalen, 2nd round RB Gerhardt, 7th TE Dray, 7th FB Lorig. http://www.nfl.com/d...g=0&type=school Doug Baldwin must not have been drafted as he is a former Luck wr as well.

 

Brees- 2nd round T Matt Light, 5th round WR Sutherland, 5th round C Okobi, 7th round T Gorin, http://www.nfl.com/d...g=0&type=school

 

Barring injury, sophomore Rashad Greene is likely to be a first round pick. Let's not lose sight of that: http://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/rashad-greene-1.html . He's really good.

[mannc]

John, I know you follow USC and watch a lot if not all of their games. I have seen a ton of them, too. Marqis Lee is just phenomenal. I love Woods but I think that Lee is slightly better overall because of his amazing explosiveness, and is probably considered the top WR choice going into next year, which Woods never really was (some would say he was at some point I guess but not like Lee. Woods has a better overall game because he does everything well, but I think Lee is a better overall pro prospect. He's just ridiculous.

 

Amazingly, they're good friends and went to the same high school and then Lee followed Woods to USC. Woods was one year ahead of him. As a senior in HS, Lee had 24 TDs on 57 catches and 1400 yards. As a true freshman he had 73 receptions for 1,143 yards and 11 touchdowns (significantly better than Woods). Their sophomore years were pretty equal. Woods was a finalist for the Biletnikoff award, Lee won it (amazing the first Trojan to win it) They are both great. If I had to choose one, I would take Lee, and I think most GM and coaches would, although not by all that much.

Woods is very good; Lee is phenomenal. He has explosiveness and top end speed that Woods just does not have. Lee probably would have been the first receiver selected this year if he had been draft eligible. He is a lock to go in the first round next year, barring injury, of course.

[BillsVet]

FSU must be good because Buffalo selected 4 in the past two drafts: EJ, Hopkins, Bradham, and Zebrie Sanders.

 

That, or Nix and Jimbo are best buds.

[HeHateMe]

Can anyone tell me if Cam Newton read the whole field at Auburn??? I feel like there is no way he did since he ran the ball a ton, he seemed much more raw as a passer coming out of college than EJ and he was still able to set the NFL on fire his rookie season.

[FleaMoulds80]

Flacco - 5th round TE, Ben Patrick. http://en.wikipedia....n_the_NFL_Draft Also, a 1-AA school after transferring from Pittsburgh.

 

Big Ben - MAC school. I'm sure Manuel would have put up some decent #s against that competition.

 

Brady - 1st round tackle Jeff Backus, 1st round G Hutchinson, 1st WR David Terrell http://www.mgoblue.c.../071108aac.html

 

Luck - 1st round G DeCastro, 2nd round TE Fleener, 2nd round TE Ertz, 2nd round LT Martin, 4th round FB Marecic, 6th round wr Whalen, 2nd round RB Gerhardt, 7th TE Dray, 7th FB Lorig. http://www.nfl.com/d...g=0&type=school Doug Baldwin must not have been drafted as he is a former Luck wr as well.

 

Brees- 2nd round T Matt Light, 5th round WR Sutherland, 5th round C Okobi, 7th round T Gorin, http://www.nfl.com/d...g=0&type=school

 

Ben Patrick? Give me a break. David Terrell? An NFL bust. Just because they make it to the next level doesn't mean they're weapons. Could be because these guys were a product of the QBs making them look good because the QB themselves were just good, which further proves my point.

[Kelly the Dog]

Ben Patrick? Give me a break. David Terrell? An NFL bust. Just because they make it to the next level doesn't mean they're weapons. Could be because these guys were a product of the QBs making them look good because the QB themselves were just good, which further proves my point.

I'm sure you watched a ton of Miami of Ohio and Delaware games for a couple years and know how those WRs rated versus their competition. Give me a break. Not to mention that there has been 12,738 players who were great in college who couldn't be great in the pros.

[Ramius]

Lots of good info in this thread. FSUs defense was one of the best in the nation, and the offense was solid, but not great. In 2011, the OL was bad, which definitely affected EJ. Hell, in the Champs sports bowl against ND, FSU started 4 freshman on the OL. The OL inmproved in 2012, but at times was suspect in pass protection.

 

FSU has featured a relatively strong running game the past few seasons, which was a reason why EJ's TD numbers weren't as high as others. He threw for 18 and 23 TDs, while the team rushed for 20 and 40 TDs in those 2 seasons respectively.

 

The WR corps is in the midst of a renaissance. In 2011, they struggled with drops, and had lots of young players on the roster. The senior leaders were decent college players, but not great. Burt Reed was a UDFA last year, and Rodney Smith was a UDFA this year. The talent is really starting to blossom, with (as Dave mentioned), Rashard Green leading the way. He should be a high draft in a year or 2 when he declares. There's other young talent that has played well at times too. The corps improved quite a bit from 2011-2012, but should improve much more this season. The TE position is largely unimpactful in the passing game.

[OldTimer1960]

I still don't see the relationship. Ben Roethlisberger, Joe Flacco, Drew Brees, Tom Brady, Andrew Luck are just some names that I can think of off the top of my head that probably had no weapons at all in college. Meanwhile, wasn't Pennington throwing the ball to Randy Moss, but his numbers didn't skyrocket. So regardless of who the QB was throwing the ball to, competent scouts should be able to see talent regardless.

 

This IMO is a bogus statement and makes no sense. If you were talking about WR, it would make more sense. Not QBs

 

It also has to do with the level of competition. Roethlisberger and Flacco didn't play against stellar competition, so you can't just judge based on whether their WRs were drafted or not.

 

Luck had Coby Fleener (TE #34 overall), Zach Ertz (TE #35 overall), Levine Toiolo (TE 4th round) to throw to. I am not sure if he had any highly thought of WRs, but he also had Stephon Taylor (RB) who was drafted this year, too.

 

RG III had Terrance Williams (WR round 3 in 2013) and Kendall Wright (#20 overall in 2012) to throw to.

 

I don't know if any of FSU's young WRs will be drafted early next year or in 2015, but they sure aren't household names now.

 

I do agree with the general premise that a QB can make their WRs better (to some extent) - see Tom Brady. However, I also believe that great WRs can make their QB look good.

[Garranimal]

Big Ben - MAC school. I'm sure Manuel would have put up some decent #s against that competition.

 

Uh, Manuel did play that competition.....its the ACC for love of mike! The ACC absolutely sucks and for those that love bowl games, the last several years have completely supported that. FSU lost to Wake Forest???!!!

[FleaMoulds80]

I'm sure you watched a ton of Miami of Ohio and Delaware games for a couple years and know how those WRs rated versus their competition. Give me a break. Not to mention that there has been 12,738 players who were great in college who couldn't be great in the pros.

 

WTF is your argument? Word of advice. When you say something. Make sure there's a point to what you say.

 

Just because a college football team is good or has weapons doesn't mean anything. There is absolutely no relationship between the 2. A QBs success at the next level is dictated on him and him alone.

 

Why is it that guys like Ken Dorsey and Gino Torretta dominated college football but couldn't do jack in the NFL, whereas average college QBs like Drew Brees and Tom Brady excelled at the next level?

Edited May 2, 2013 by FleaMoulds80

[Max997]

I have heard several interviews discussing how FSU tends to hold their players back running a basic offense which asks little of their players mainly their quarterbacks who only have to read half the field

 

Manuel was apparently impressive at the senior bowl with how quickly he picked things up when the coaching staff asked him to do more then he did at FSU. I listened to an interview with Marrone the day after the draft and it sounded like that's when the Bills actually knew Manuel was who they wanted

Edited May 2, 2013 by Max997