cvanvol Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 http://www.oleantimesherald.com/editorial/article_18504a0e-f413-11e0-9e29-001cc4c03286.html I had to write back to this because I thought the article was idiotic but I can generally see the direction he was coming from. I also didnt even mention that Byrd, Wilson, and Barnett are in the top ten in the league in tackles. So having a MLB in the top ten is probably where you want ur D to be. Sir, I recently read your article criticizing the Buffalo Bills defense. You stated “And that brings to mind one of football’s oldest clichés: “You’re in big trouble defensively when your safeties are making the tackles.”” I was wondering where this cliché came from, why is it quoted? I have been a football fan for a number of years and have never heard this be said. Also you don’t make mention that of the three members of the defensive backfield (Wilson, Byrd, and Scott) they also lead the team in tackles for loss. While I understood the background for your article because the defense is giving up a lot of yards I don’t think it has anything to do with the safeties making tackles and more on the trend in this year’s NFL to gain a lot of yards. I look forward to reading your response and discovering the origins of “one of footballs oldest clichés”. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 http://www.oleantimesherald.com/editorial/article_18504a0e-f413-11e0-9e29-001cc4c03286.html I had to write back to this because I thought the article was idiotic but I can generally see the direction he was coming from. I also didnt even mention that Byrd, Wilson, and Barnett are in the top ten in the league in tackles. So having a MLB in the top ten is probably where you want ur D to be. Sir, I recently read your article criticizing the Buffalo Bills defense. You stated “And that brings to mind one of football’s oldest clichés: “You’re in big trouble defensively when your safeties are making the tackles.”” I was wondering where this cliché came from, why is it quoted? I have been a football fan for a number of years and have never heard this be said. Also you don’t make mention that of the three members of the defensive backfield (Wilson, Byrd, and Scott) they also lead the team in tackles for loss. While I understood the background for your article because the defense is giving up a lot of yards I don’t think it has anything to do with the safeties making tackles and more on the trend in this year’s NFL to gain a lot of yards. I look forward to reading your response and discovering the origins of “one of footballs oldest clichés”. I've heard it for years - it's hardly new. If a safety is the leading tackler, it's a pretty sure sign that your run D completely sucks. That's a highly accurate description of the Bills run D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cvanvol Posted October 11, 2011 Author Share Posted October 11, 2011 I've heard it for years - it's hardly new. If a safety is the leading tackler, it's a pretty sure sign that your run D completely sucks. That's a highly accurate description of the Bills run D. I have to disagree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fitz's Beard Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 I've heard it for years - it's hardly new. If a safety is the leading tackler, it's a pretty sure sign that your run D completely sucks. That's a highly accurate description of the Bills run D. where? I've never heard that cliche before. I heard ESPN make mention of the fact that our safeties making so many tackles last year was attributed to our horrible run D, but as was pointed out before, the nature of where on the field the tackles are made are more important than the number of tackles. It also plays into what scheme the D is running. Just saying that "because your safeties are the leading tacklers on your team means your D is not good" is not valid! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jauronimo Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 So is the opposite then true too? When Whitner was whiffing on all those tackles was it because our run defense was excellent? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just in Atlanta Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 "It also makes you wonder, other than Barnett, what the Bills’ linebackers, who are supposed to be the tacklers in a 3-4 defense, have been doping. Outside backer Shawne Merriman had a cheap sack..." Freudian slip or intentional? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonramz Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 The cliche basically means that the defense is not making tackles behind/at/near to the line of scrimmage and that they are being made in the defensive backfield. In other words, the other team is gaining too many yards. Which is an accurate assessment of our defense right now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cvanvol Posted October 11, 2011 Author Share Posted October 11, 2011 The cliche basically means that the defense is not making tackles behind/at/near to the line of scrimmage and that they are being made in the defensive backfield. In other words, the other team is gaining too many yards. Which is an accurate assessment of our defense right now Its a statement that was entirely true of last years team and somewhat of this years. However it is not a football cliche. He pretty much just made it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 The cliche basically means that the defense is not making tackles behind/at/near to the line of scrimmage and that they are being made in the defensive backfield. In other words, the other team is gaining too many yards. Which is an accurate assessment of our defense right now False. Between Byrd and Wilson, there were a TON of tackles around the LOS on Sunday. In fact, watching the game, I even thought to myself, wow, our DB's are getting a ton of tackles up close to the LOS, I can't wait to hear how this is spun into ye olde "if you safeties are tackling your defense sucks" line. Flash forward to today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EldaBillsFan Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 The leading tackler in the league has 65 tackles only 2 for losses 1 ff We have two safeties with 2 tackles for losses each...and 1 forced fumble each...its called running to the ball.... we only have defended the run poorly one game this season and what was against cincy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tennesseeboy Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 http://www.oleantimesherald.com/editorial/article_18504a0e-f413-11e0-9e29-001cc4c03286.html I had to write back to this because I thought the article was idiotic but I can generally see the direction he was coming from. I also didnt even mention that Byrd, Wilson, and Barnett are in the top ten in the league in tackles. So having a MLB in the top ten is probably where you want ur D to be. Sir, I recently read your article criticizing the Buffalo Bills defense. You stated “And that brings to mind one of football’s oldest clichés: “You’re in big trouble defensively when your safeties are making the tackles.”” I was wondering where this cliché came from, why is it quoted? I have been a football fan for a number of years and have never heard this be said. Also you don’t make mention that of the three members of the defensive backfield (Wilson, Byrd, and Scott) they also lead the team in tackles for loss. While I understood the background for your article because the defense is giving up a lot of yards I don’t think it has anything to do with the safeties making tackles and more on the trend in this year’s NFL to gain a lot of yards. I look forward to reading your response and discovering the origins of “one of footballs oldest clichés”. I suspect you are in bigger trouble if your safeties AREN'T making tackles, but that's just me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EldaBillsFan Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 And if u watch the game offenses are running to edges... that's where u want ur safeties to make plays Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 One thing to note- bills give more tackles out than most- this isn't a stat that is apples to apples around the league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delete This Account Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 Its a statement that was entirely true of last years team and somewhat of this years. However it is not a football cliche. He pretty much just made it up. he did not. it's been a well-worn statement that's been used for many years. you can disagree with the cliche' but just because you haven't heard it, doesn't make it foreign or "made up." gees. why is this so difficult. jw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wooderson Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 Only thing that matters right now, 4-1. 1st in AFC East. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cvanvol Posted October 11, 2011 Author Share Posted October 11, 2011 he did not. it's been a well-worn statement that's been used for many years. you can disagree with the cliche' but just because you haven't heard it, doesn't make it foreign or "made up." gees. why is this so difficult. jw Can you find me any other article that has ever made reference to it? I havent heard it and will accept it if others have but I thought by his quotes he pulled it for somewhere or a coach had said it in the past and I find nothing when searching for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gugny Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 I found this on an ohio state message board: http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=145&f=3154&t=8063801&p=2&sto=MS_107513898 Posted: 10/8/2011 11:39 PM Re: Where was the defense in the second half? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Did you see a LB make a tackle that entire game? Were have all the LB'ers gone? When your safeties are making tackles, it's going to be a long night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atlbillsfan1975 Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 it is a very old saying around football. i fyou rsafeties are leading the team in tackling it usually isn't a good sign. Not saying it means that buffalo's d is bad or that the safeties aren't making those tackles near the LOS or in the O backfield. Think about it, safeties are the deepest guys usually on the field ie why they are called safeties...last guy you have to beat to score. I am totally not argueing whether the Bills safeties are making touchdown saving tackles, just pointing out that it is a very old saying. Ask any coach or player the question, "what does it say about a defense if the safety is leading the team in tackles?" and see what they respond with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cvanvol Posted October 11, 2011 Author Share Posted October 11, 2011 I found this on an ohio state message board: http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=145&f=3154&t=8063801&p=2&sto=MS_107513898 Posted: 10/8/2011 11:39 PM Re: Where was the defense in the second half? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Did you see a LB make a tackle that entire game? Were have all the LB'ers gone? When your safeties are making tackles, it's going to be a long night. Mark Richt (horrible coach) also said this "Then when it does come and there’s a lead blocker on them, that they do have to fit properly and try to get things to bounce outside. That’s what you hope to do with a team like this. If they start splitting you vertically, you are in trouble. Your safeties are trying to make tackles and it’s going to be a long day" I guess i can come to grips with the fact that it has been said in some fashion. One of the oldest cliches i think not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 Its a statement that was entirely true of last years team and somewhat of this years. However it is not a football cliche. He pretty much just made it up. I've heard it repeatedly and said it myself for decades. It's blatantly obvious. Not only are they making tackles deep into the defensive backfield but they are giving up receptions and making tackles on WR and TE too deep as well. There are, of course, exceptions to the rule. But as a rule, you don't want your safeties making big portions let alone the majority of your tackles, and you surely don't want three members of your DB being your three top tacklers. You always want your LBs and DL making the most tackles on your team. It's inarguable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heitz Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 he did not. it's been a well-worn statement that's been used for many years. you can disagree with the cliche' but just because you haven't heard it, doesn't make it foreign or "made up." gees. why is this so difficult. jw No John, people here have never heard it, therefore it does not exist. Clearly you haven't spend enough time on TBD to know how things here work. Or, *I* haven't seen you spending enough time for you to know how things work, therefore you haven't and don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cvanvol Posted October 11, 2011 Author Share Posted October 11, 2011 it is a very old saying around football. i fyou rsafeties are leading the team in tackling it usually isn't a good sign. Not saying it means that buffalo's d is bad or that the safeties aren't making those tackles near the LOS or in the O backfield. Think about it, safeties are the deepest guys usually on the field ie why they are called safeties...last guy you have to beat to score. I am totally not argueing whether the Bills safeties are making touchdown saving tackles, just pointing out that it is a very old saying. Ask any coach or player the question, "what does it say about a defense if the safety is leading the team in tackles?" and see what they respond with. I get the premise behind it and them being the last line of defense but watching george wilson on sunday I dont think its the case for this team. No John, people here have never heard it, therefore it does not exist. Clearly you haven't spend enough time on TBD to know how things here work. Or, *I* haven't seen you spending enough time for you to know how things work, therefore you haven't and don't. Now i remember why it isnt enjoyable to post here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mini Max Anderson Fan Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 he did not. it's been a well-worn statement that's been used for many years. you can disagree with the cliche' but just because you haven't heard it, doesn't make it foreign or "made up." gees. why is this so difficult. jw I have to agree, the phrase has been around forever, longer then jw even! BTW, good to see you here jw, I enjoy reading you're Bills' articles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEAST MODE BABY! Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 (edited) Now i remember why it isnt enjoyable to post here. Because people take you to task since you've never heard one of football's rules of thumb? Not to mention, you accused someone of making it up? Yeah, if I posted stuff like that I wouldn't like the responses I got either. Edited October 11, 2011 by BEAST MODE BABY! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mini Max Anderson Fan Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 I get the premise behind it and them being the last line of defense but watching george wilson on sunday I dont think its the case for this team. Now i remember why it isnt enjoyable to post here. Sometimes we create our own problem by not seeing what is in front of our faces. Many people have commented that they have heard of the phrase and it's intended meaning (safeties making tackles usually is a bad thing). Think back to last year, lil Donte had a ton of tackles way down field. Anyway, tis true, accept it and move on is my best advice (unwanted as it is). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cvanvol Posted October 11, 2011 Author Share Posted October 11, 2011 Sometimes we create our own problem by not seeing what is in front of our faces. Many people have commented that they have heard of the phrase and it's intended meaning (safeties making tackles usually is a bad thing). Think back to last year, lil Donte had a ton of tackles way down field. Anyway, tis true, accept it and move on is my best advice (unwanted as it is). I understand that and as i said if people have heard of it I can accept that, I do think it does reflect on most teams especially last years bills. However, if you look at the TFL stats while not that impressive those same 3 DBs also lead in those categories and watching George Wilson constanly right at the line of scrimmage I dont think it reflects very well on this years team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSBill Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 I'll say this, in watching my DVR rerun, our Defense look far more athletic with Sheppard, Moats, and Carrington, then it had the previous weeks --- I think it will only get better, than again, I guess it only has one direction to go. Well, my point, I think the tools are there, just need the experience and execution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nucci Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 Mark Richt (horrible coach) also said this "Then when it does come and there’s a lead blocker on them, that they do have to fit properly and try to get things to bounce outside. That’s what you hope to do with a team like this. If they start splitting you vertically, you are in trouble. Your safeties are trying to make tackles and it’s going to be a long day" I guess i can come to grips with the fact that it has been said in some fashion. One of the oldest cliches i think not. That would depend on how old you are. That saying has been around for a very long time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cvanvol Posted October 11, 2011 Author Share Posted October 11, 2011 Because people take you to task since you've never heard one of football's rules of thumb? Not to mention, you accused someone of making it up? Yeah, if I posted stuff like that I wouldn't like the responses I got either. I said that I would accept it if others had heard it.I didnt accuse him of making up the cliche I meant that as the quote I thought it would be from a coach or an analyst but the only thing I could find is that mark richt comment that is vaguely similar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delete This Account Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 (edited) Mark Richt (horrible coach) also said this "Then when it does come and there’s a lead blocker on them, that they do have to fit properly and try to get things to bounce outside. That’s what you hope to do with a team like this. If they start splitting you vertically, you are in trouble. Your safeties are trying to make tackles and it’s going to be a long day" I guess i can come to grips with the fact that it has been said in some fashion. One of the oldest cliches i think not. stop it please. it's a cliche. cliche's are generally old. what point are you trying to prove here? that you were capable of writing a letter to the editor to Chuck Pollock or that you don't know everything. both are evident, though the latter we all generally accept to be true for all of us. for some reason in regards to you, it seems to be a surprise. jw ADD: and don't try to get out of this with the well-worn excuse that posters use when the thread they started didn't turn out the way they thought it might: "Oh, now i know why i don't post here often." bah-loney. you got off to a good start with making a point in sending Pollock a letter. but then you got off on this silly little tangent that has lead this thread into an altogether other direction. and you led us there. here's a cliche that you might or might not know (and i swear i didn't make it up): "you should've quit while you were ahead." Edited October 11, 2011 by john wawrow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 (edited) I get the premise behind it and them being the last line of defense but watching george wilson on sunday I dont think its the case for this team. George Wilson made 11 tackles on sunday. Those 11 plays were after gains of... 19 yards... -3 2 11 11 15 15 1 12 53 5 The average yards on the plays that Wilson made the tackle on was 12.8 yards. I don't know why you would, but if you threw out the 53 yarder the average play he made the tackle on was 8.8 yards beyond the line of scrimmage. And George Wilson had a great game. That's why you don't want your safeties making the majority of your tackles. The Eagles gained a lot of yards. Their average play overall was 8.2 compared to the 12.8 of the Wilson tackles. If, again, you threw out the 53 yard run to make Wilson's average 8.8, the Eagles averaged 7.4 yards on all plays but the 53 yarder. So Wilson's tackles were about 1.5 yards worse than tackles made by other Bills if you just ignored a 53 yard play he made the tackle on. http://www.nfl.com/l...UF_Gamebook.pdf Edited October 11, 2011 by Kelly the Dog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cvanvol Posted October 11, 2011 Author Share Posted October 11, 2011 stop it please. it's a cliche. cliche's are generally old. what point are you trying to prove here? that you were capable of writing a letter to the editor to Chuck Pollock or that you don't know everything. both are evident, though the latter we all generally accept to be true for all of us. for some reason in regards to you, it seems to be a surprise. jw Hahahhaaha thanks for jumping all over me. I was wrong I ge that. I understand why that would be the case if your safeties are forced to make a lot of tackles. I didnt hear it so often that it would be one of the oldest cliches. My point was that I dont think that is our problems. I think that the play of George Wilson kind of alluded to that fact on sunday. I also pointed out that Barnett is in the top ten of the league for tackles. Thats what you want from your MLB. Our other LBs may be suspect and maybe the DL hasnt had that many stops. Is our DL and OLB that far behind from others in the league? stop it please. it's a cliche. cliche's are generally old. what point are you trying to prove here? that you were capable of writing a letter to the editor to Chuck Pollock or that you don't know everything. both are evident, though the latter we all generally accept to be true for all of us. for some reason in regards to you, it seems to be a surprise. jw ADD: and don't try to get out of this with the well-worn excuse that posters use when the thread they started didn't turn out the way they thought it might: "Oh, now i know why i don't post here often." bah-loney. you got off to a good start with making a point in sending Pollock a letter. but then you got off on this silly little tangent that has lead this thread into an altogether other direction. and you led us there. here's a cliche that you might or might not know (and i swear i didn't make it up): "you should've quit while you were ahead." That wasnt trying to get out of it as im obviously still here. Take it as me being thin skinned about that or however you want I just thought that your sarcasm was uncalled for. Maybe its just you sticking up for a fellow journalist but I still dont see where that quote came from and thats what I meant by him "making it up". Maybe I should have quit and this is probably just digging it deeper but I didnt agree with the article so i contacted him and put it here to see some other points of view. George Wilson made 11 tackles on sunday. Those 11 plays were after gains of... 19 yards... -3 2 11 11 15 15 1 12 53 5 The average yards on the plays that Wilson made the tackle on was 12.8 yards. I don't know why you would, but if you threw out the 53 yarder the average play he made the tackle on was 8.8 yards beyond the line of scrimmage. And George Wilson had a great game. That's why you don't want your safeties making the majority of your tackles. The Eagles gained a lot of yards. Their average play overall was 8.2 compared to the 12.8 of the Wilson tackles. If, again, you threw out the 53 yard run to make Wilson's average 8.8, the Eagles averaged 7.4 yards on all plays but the 53 yarder. So Wilson's tackles were about 1.5 yards worse than tackles made by other Bills if you just ignored a 53 yard play he made the tackle on. http://www.nfl.com/l...UF_Gamebook.pdf The 15 yarder and the 53 yarder are the only long runs. That average is bad and I wont leave the 53 yarded out even though it was a broken play scramble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Throwback Bills Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 Most teams we have played have gone heavy on the pass. With that shouldn't your safeties and corners be making the tackles? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gugny Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 cvanvol, please just let this one go, man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cvanvol Posted October 11, 2011 Author Share Posted October 11, 2011 cvanvol, please just let this one go, man. Alright I was wrong, my bad guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpberr Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 My first impression is that do I care so long as the Bills keep winning? No. Outside of analyzing tackle distribution, it's probably interesting to see how the defense performs after halftime. It appears that's when the defense gets gashed, not in the first half. And more importantly, why? That's my question to you guys on the board who know and follow the defense closely. Why is it we give up the bazillion yards in the second half and let teams back into would be blowouts? Fatigue? Inexperience? Change in strategy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 Most teams we have played have gone heavy on the pass. With that shouldn't your safeties and corners be making the tackles? Yes and no. The pass stats are up in numbers of attempts but teams are also throwing a ton of balls to the backs, plus WR and TE screens, but a lot of dinks and dunks that take the place of running plays and you want your LBs and sometimes even your DL snuff them out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LabattBlue Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 here's a cliche that you might or might not know (and i swear i didn't make it up): "you should've quit while you were ahead." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColdBlueNorth Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 http://www.oleantime...1cc4c03286.html I had to write back to this because I thought the article was idiotic but I can generally see the direction he was coming from. I also didnt even mention that Byrd, Wilson, and Barnett are in the top ten in the league in tackles. So having a MLB in the top ten is probably where you want ur D to be. Sir, I recently read your article criticizing the Buffalo Bills defense. You stated "And that brings to mind one of football's oldest clichés: "You're in big trouble defensively when your safeties are making the tackles."" I was wondering where this cliché came from, why is it quoted? I have been a football fan for a number of years and have never heard this be said. Also you don't make mention that of the three members of the defensive backfield (Wilson, Byrd, and Scott) they also lead the team in tackles for loss. While I understood the background for your article because the defense is giving up a lot of yards I don't think it has anything to do with the safeties making tackles and more on the trend in this year's NFL to gain a lot of yards. I look forward to reading your response and discovering the origins of "one of footballs oldest clichés". Wilson and Byrd are used up on the line in run formations often as extra linebackers, we also face a lot of quality WR and TE's that force safety intervention. I remember seeing another article recently on how the safety position has evolved to take on much broader role trying to counteract what offenses are doing these days with the new rules. Cliches sometimes are based on some facts, but there is more to the numbers game when it comes to how we and much of the league are using their safeties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajzepp Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 Alright I was wrong, my bad guys. Dang, I thought for sure you were on the verge of going b.harami...oh well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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