I thought Shanahan was a genious?

[Mike in Syracuse]

There was a lot of angst around here when Shanahan basically snubbed the Bills. Anyone here seeing the "genious" in him this season?

 

Weren't they 0 for 12 on 3rd down last night?

[ajzepp]

I was looking forward to that game, but what a crapfest. Skins are a joke.

[K-9]

It's a pretty simple formula really.

 

Great players = genius coaches.

 

HOF QBs = HOF coaches.

 

When I look at the list of HOF coaches from the modern era, I am struck by one amazing fact: they had HOF quarterbacks. Some, like Shula and Walsh had more than one. Hell, Shula had three! Amazing.

 

Shanahan, like all the rest of them, is finding out what it's like when he doesn't have the horses (or broncos in this case). He got a good taste of what it would be like after Elway retired.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Toledo Bill]

He is... just ask him...

[PromoTheRobot]

Genius. And I agree that Shanny was made out to be all that and a bag of chips too. Looking at him in Washington I doubt he would be doing better than Chan.

 

PTR

Edited November 16, 2010 by PromoTheRobot

[Realist]

I'm actually glad we didn't land him.

[tennesseeboy]

I was one of the few down on Shanahan as coach of the bills. I would have liked to have seen Fewell or one of any number of high quality and enthusiastic co-ordinators ready to make the move to HC. I'm not surprised at where Shanahan (and Gailey for that matter) are at this point in the season.

[DanInUticaTampa]

Not just shanny, but mcnabb too.

 

It is crazy when Chan/Fitz can convert a much higher percentage on third downs than shanny/mcnabb.

[zow2]

The talk radio here in DC is pretty hilarious today (as you can imagine after that shellacking). They got Whupped by Detroit and Philly in back to back games now. Fans and media are screaming that if this was Zorn and Cerrato, they would be fired by 6am this morning....but Shanny gets a pass.

BTW- Nice defense by Mr. Jim Haslett. Glad he isn't our coach either.

[st. pete gogolak]

It's a pretty simple formula really.

 

Great players = genius coaches.

 

HOF QBs = HOF coaches.

 

When I look at the list of HOF coaches from the modern era, I am struck by one amazing fact: they had HOF quarterbacks. Some, like Shula and Walsh had more than one. Hell, Shula had three! Amazing.

 

Shanahan, like all the rest of them, is finding out what it's like when he doesn't have the horses (or broncos in this case). He got a good taste of what it would be like after Elway retired.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

That's why IMO Joe Gibbs is one of the best three or four coaches of the last 50 years. He won three Super Bowls with Joe Theisman, Doug Williams and Mark Rypien as his quarterbacks.

[Malazan]

I wanted Shanahan despite not really liking him as a coach because I felt the Bills needed 'credibility' around the NFL and for some reason..he has it.

[mattsox]

I wanted Shanahan despite not really liking him as a coach because I felt the Bills needed 'credibility' around the NFL and for some reason..he has it.

 

Maybe him winning 2 consecutive Superbowls and the fact the Broncos were usually always in it. Maybe that makes him credible? I don't really know though hmm...

[Billsguy]

There was a lot of angst around here when Shanahan basically snubbed the Bills. Anyone here seeing the "genious" in him this season?

 

Weren't they 0 for 12 on 3rd down last night?

 

Redskins have four wins and the Bills have one. Does that make him 4 times better than Gailey? Would you still prefer Gailey over Shanahan?

 

It is a pointless argument at this time and it doesn't take a "genius" (spelled correctly) to figure it out.

[Doc]

How could it all have gone so wrong for the Redskins? They hired a name GM, a name coach, traded for a top QB, Snyder spends money on players, and has distanced himself from running things. Aw who cares, let's just enjoy the trainwreck!

[BobChalmers]

That's why IMO Joe Gibbs is one of the best three or four coaches of the last 50 years. He won three Super Bowls with Joe Theisman, Doug Williams and Mark Rypien as his quarterbacks.

 

+1

[Mr. WEO]

It's a pretty simple formula really.

 

Great players = genius coaches.

 

HOF QBs = HOF coaches.

 

When I look at the list of HOF coaches from the modern era, I am struck by one amazing fact: they had HOF quarterbacks. Some, like Shula and Walsh had more than one. Hell, Shula had three! Amazing.

 

Shanahan, like all the rest of them, is finding out what it's like when he doesn't have the horses (or broncos in this case). He got a good taste of what it would be like after Elway retired.

 

GO BILLS!!!

How many SBs did HOR QB Elway win before he met Shanahan?

[flopagamo]

That's why IMO Joe Gibbs is one of the best three or four coaches of the last 50 years. He won three Super Bowls with Joe Theisman, Doug Williams and Mark Rypien as his quarterbacks.

 

Unless your D can totally shut down the other team... the game is won on the O line. Rypien is the best example -- that Skins team kept Rypien cleaner than any QB in history. He could sit back there & throw darts - it also helped that he was extremely accurate with all that time to throw. Gibbs' success was tied to the Hogs, and a strong defense. Similar to Shanahan -- his offensive lines in Denver were so good (with their borderline illegal cut blocking technique) than any RB he put behind them put up big numbers. Shanahan's O-line has stunk up the joint this year... and McNabb is being exposed for the inaccurate passer he's always been.

[BuffOrange]

That's why IMO Joe Gibbs is one of the best three or four coaches of the last 50 years. He won three Super Bowls with Joe Theisman, Doug Williams and Mark Rypien as his quarterbacks.

 

Agreed.

[Doc]

How many SBs did HOR QB Elway win before he met Shanahan?

How many SB's did Shanahan even get to, much less win, without Elway?

[John from Riverside]

Wasn't this a Shanahan critisism from the past? If he didn't have the good players then bad decisions were amplified?

[Mark Long Beach]

Having watched a fair number of Shanahan games, I can't tell you how relieved that I am that we didn't land him. When he was younger he was a good coach. Now he knows he is, just ask him. The more power he has and has gotten the more poor his coaching has become. As an added bonus his player acquisition skills are _horrible_.

 

Worse, he gives up on middling players too quickly now because he plans on replacing them. But those middling players often need to be put into service because of injury. But they're not well prepared and the coach hasn't put any energy into them unlike when he was a younger coach. IMO.

 

Let him drag some other team into chaos.

 

No thank you, no thank you, no thank you. Or more accurately: thank goodness we didn't get him, thank goodness, thank goodness.

[Mike in Syracuse]

I still don't understand how his starting QB just signed a bajillion dollar extension two weeks after he was benched.

 

It was fun watching Shanahan change his answer every time the question as to why was asked.

[Doc]

I still don't understand how his starting QB just signed a bajillion dollar extension two weeks after he was benched.

It's similar to the Bills giving Jauron an extension after the team blew a 5-1 start. Likely the extension was in the works well before the slide/benching.

[flopagamo]

I still don't understand how his starting QB just signed a bajillion dollar extension two weeks after he was benched.

 

It was fun watching Shanahan change his answer every time the question as to why was asked.

From the info on espn.com and Yahoo Shutdown Corner, it seems that the Skins didn't actually lock up too much money in McNabb, despite that big dollar sign total.

[MattyT]

genious?

[Talley56]

How many SBs did HOR QB Elway win before he met Shanahan?

 

 

How many SB's did Shanahan even get to, much less win, without Elway?

Wrong questions, it's how many superbowls did either win without Terrell Davis?

 

As for Shannahan, it's amazing how we want to give Gailey some time as this is his first year fixing a team that's in a mess but Shannahan makes one questionable move in his first year trying to fix a mess and "oh, I didn't want him anyway". I'm sorry, but it is very deslusional to believe we are better off with Gailey than we would have been with Shanny.

[truth on hold]

Never was. He has a fixed system of zone blocking and relatively simple formations on offense and defense that he's never changed. He had a 2 yr window in Denver where the players he had fit that system perfectly. Problem is he tries to apply it no matter who he has. Won't work, especially in the modern era of more flexible schemes and comprehensive game planning. The guys a relic. He ripped off the Skins and he knows it.

[billsfan89]

Skins are still pretty far off from being a championship team. They have a decent team but its flawed in certain areas Shanny has a lot of work to do for that team.

Edited November 17, 2010 by billsfan89

[Green Lightning]

I'm good with Chan over Shan. Shan's an arrogant egotist who hasn't done squat since he lost Elway.

[Mr. WEO]

How many SB's did Shanahan even get to, much less win, without Elway?

Elway, in his prime, lost 3 SBs.

 

Shanahan took an aging Elway at the tail end of his career (his 15th and 16th/final seasons) and created an offense that included a solid running game (Davis), and finally made a SB winner out of the Broncos and Elway.

 

And, no--Shanahan has never won a SB since (but he did make 4 more playoff appearances with QBs like Brian Griese and Jake Plummer), so I guess he is a fraud by your logic. Guess the fraud list would also include Lombardi (couldn't win without Starr), Walsh (how many SB's before Montana?), Parcells...

[gizmo6824]

Unless your D can totally shut down the other team... the game is won on the O line. Rypien is the best example -- that Skins team kept Rypien cleaner than any QB in history. He could sit back there & throw darts - it also helped that he was extremely accurate with all that time to throw. Gibbs' success was tied to the Hogs, and a strong defense. Similar to Shanahan -- his offensive lines in Denver were so good (with their borderline illegal cut blocking technique) than any RB he put behind them put up big numbers. Shanahan's O-line has stunk up the joint this year... and McNabb is being exposed for the inaccurate passer he's always been.

+10 couldnt have said it better,.. I dont post much, usually everyone has already said what im thinking so ill just read...but i totally agreed with this post, hit that nail right on the head....

Edited November 17, 2010 by gizmo6824

[Doc]

Elway, in his prime, lost 3 SBs.

 

Shanahan took an aging Elway at the tail end of his career (his 15th and 16th/final seasons) and created an offense that included a solid running game (Davis), and finally made a SB winner out of the Broncos and Elway.

 

And, no--Shanahan has never won a SB since (but he did make 4 more playoff appearances with QBs like Brian Griese and Jake Plummer), so I guess he is a fraud by your logic. Guess the fraud list would also include Lombardi (couldn't win without Starr), Walsh (how many SB's before Montana?), Parcells...

LOL @ the "fraud" thing. Sorry, you're confusing me with you, thinking that Elway was a "fraud" because he lost 3 SB's before Shanahan and Davis arrived. The truth is that the Broncos had no business being in those SB's, if not for Elway. And the point was that Shanahan had a whole decade after Elway retired to prove that the SB wins were because of him, but the best he could muster was a blowout in the AFCCG in 2005, when the Broncos had the 2nd-ranked rushing game based on YPC, as he did during the SB-winning years.

 

As for Lombardi, Walsh (who retired after the 49'ers' 3rd SB win while their HC), and Parcells, when the discussion of Shanahan came up, it was noted to NO HC had ever won a SB with 2 different teams, for whatever reason. That doesn't appear to be changing anytime soon.

[Mr. WEO]

LOL @ the "fraud" thing. Sorry, you're confusing me with you, thinking that Elway was a "fraud" because he lost 3 SB's before Shanahan and Davis arrived. The truth is that the Broncos had no business being in those SB's, if not for Elway. And the point was that Shanahan had a whole decade after Elway retired to prove that the SB wins were because of him, but the best he could muster was a blowout in the AFCCG in 2005, when the Broncos had the 2nd-ranked rushing game based on YPC, as he did during the SB-winning years.

 

As for Lombardi, Walsh (who retired after the 49'ers' 3rd SB win while their HC), and Parcells, when the discussion of Shanahan came up, it was noted to NO HC had ever won a SB with 2 different teams, for whatever reason. That doesn't appear to be changing anytime soon.

Elway a fraud?? Look, all your arguments here are against things other people never said. That's how you do it. Elway is one of the best QBs ever to play the game.

 

But he was on his last legs when Shanahan put together the offense that would bring Denver consecutive SBs. You think if Reeves was still around to coach the Broncos in Elway's waning years they would have won consecutive SBs? Nonsense.

 

I don't know how to counter "the Broncos had no business being in those (3 in 4 years) SBs"---because it's....silly, meaningless--a throwaway comment. But to belittle Shanahan becuase he couldn't return to the SB with Greise, Plummer makes you look more foolish.

[BillsFanM.D.]

Qb's and RB's are important and help define coaches as noted. Gibbs is a good example of a great coach elevating a pedestrian qb or two. This shows the converse is true to some degree as far as 'elevating' the people around you.

 

Bottom line, however, is missing in this thread. Show me a great team/super bowl winner with a 'pedestrian' offensive line. It doesn't happen. To cite the Gibbs reference, the "hoggs" made some great qb's and some great coaches. That component is a necessity.

[Bill from NYC]

This post should be more about owner interference than Shanahan. We, as Bills fans, should know this.

[K-9]

Qb's and RB's are important and help define coaches as noted. Gibbs is a good example of a great coach elevating a pedestrian qb or two. This shows the converse is true to some degree as far as 'elevating' the people around you.

 

Bottom line, however, is missing in this thread. Show me a great team/super bowl winner with a 'pedestrian' offensive line. It doesn't happen. To cite the Gibbs reference, the "hoggs" made some great qb's and some great coaches. That component is a necessity.

 

No doubt. SB winners typically have good players along both fronts. That said, the vast majority of SBs have been won with a current or future HOF quarterback at the helm. Again, their lines certainly made it possible for them to succeed.

 

Gibbs is the rare exception to the rule that HOF coaches are nearly always associated with HOF QBs. Some, like Shula and Walsh have had more than one. Gibbs was simply one of the greatest coaches of any sport at any level for my money. And I can remember when his career started out 0-5 and many were saying that JKC really screwed the pooch by hiring him.

 

Fans. What do we know?

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Bill from NYC]

Fans. What do we know?

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

While I understand that this question is rhetorical, in the case of the Bills it is more sad than anything else.

A team would have to try to screw up worse than the Bills during the Levy/Jauron era. Unlike most, I hold out against hope for Troup and Carrington, but think that the Spiller pick was SO outrageous, that it points to Ralph.

 

Posters on this board would have drafted better than the Bills in the last several years, and this is without the benefit of a scouting team. The Bills need to improve on this abysmal record of selecting so-so, let alone bad football players with premium picks.

I cling to the hope that Nix can do so if left alone.

[K-9]

While I understand that this question is rhetorical, in the case of the Bills it is more sad than anything else.

A team would have to try to screw up worse than the Bills during the Levy/Jauron era. Unlike most, I hold out against hope for Troup and Carrington, but think that the Spiller pick was SO outrageous, that it points to Ralph.

 

Posters on this board would have drafted better than the Bills in the last several years, and this is without the benefit of a scouting team. The Bills need to improve on this abysmal record of selecting so-so, let alone bad football players with premium picks.

I cling to the hope that Nix can do so if left alone.

 

I certainly feel your pain, Bill. We've all suffered like Cubs fans for a long time.

 

There is no doubt that the FO has wasted some picks over the last decade. From Donahoe to Levy they had their share of screw ups. Hell, Butler had crap drafts his last couple years.

 

But as for Nix and Co. it's simply too early to tell. I am old school in that I think it's wise to take BPA. Every team has needs but good football players are ALWAYS needed. Playmaker is ALWAYS a need position. Especially on teams so lacking in talent. The Bills took the BPA in Spiller and I don't have any doubt of that. He was by far the BPA; it wasn't even close. It would have been nice to get as highly rated a player at a position of more need but the OTs were gone. The only QB was gone.

 

I know your disdain for the Spiller pick. But I can't agree that us fans would have done a better job drafting. Who would you have taken at 9? And I ask that knowing we all have the benefit of a half season of hindsight.

 

I predict before it's all over that you'll be extolling Spiller in one of your post-game analysis posts in the future.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Doc]

Elway a fraud?? Look, all your arguments here are against things other people never said. That's how you do it. Elway is one of the best QBs ever to play the game.

 

But he was on his last legs when Shanahan put together the offense that would bring Denver consecutive SBs. You think if Reeves was still around to coach the Broncos in Elway's waning years they would have won consecutive SBs? Nonsense.

 

I don't know how to counter "the Broncos had no business being in those (3 in 4 years) SBs"---because it's....silly, meaningless--a throwaway comment. But to belittle Shanahan becuase he couldn't return to the SB with Greise, Plummer makes you look more foolish.

The "fraud" thing was your schtick, doc. I never implied, much less said, Shanahan was a "fraud," so I figured you were confused. So much for arguments against things other people never said!

 

Elway was on his last legs? He enjoyed 2 of his finest seasons at the end of his career, throwing for 3,635 yards, 27 TDs and 11 INTs in 16 starts in 1997, and 2,794 yards 22 TDs and 10 INTs in 12 starts in 1998. Most QB's would love to be on their "last legs" with stats like those!

 

Before Davis, Elway was the Broncos, doc. And again, Elway made the SB without Shanahan while Shanahan hasn't come close without him. It is what it is, despite how "silly" you may want to claim it is (it's what you do). And his start in Washington isn't doing him any favors in this regard.

Edited November 17, 2010 by Doc

[Bill from NYC]

I certainly feel your pain, Bill. We've all suffered like Cubs fans

I know your disdain for the Spiller pick. But I can't agree that us fans would have done a better job drafting. Who would you have taken at 9? And I ask that knowing we all have the benefit of a half season of hindsight.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

I didn't expect one of the top LTs to be there, so I was all about Rolando McClain. Once he was gone at #7 I wanted Brandon Graham.

 

R.Rich and I were back and forth before the draft, and I had said early on that I liked Bulaga as a RIGHT Tackle. The Bills ran up to the podium, shunning any chance at a tradedown offer. To this very day, I would rather the Bills have had an opportunity for Bulaga and an extra 2nd, OR Graham than Spiller in terms of what this team needs to be good.

 

This by no means indicates that I am correct, but I am answering your question.