Vick reinstated on conditional basis

[zazie]

That I can agree with. I am not sure how much of a case he would have, since he has other options to play football (CFL, UFL, etc.). The NFL is not the only option.

 

While the NFL may be the biggest and best, the commissioner is the ultimate determiner of who gets to play. The owners hired him to do that very job. If an owner or two disagrees with the commissioner, that is their choice. Regardless, the Commissioner is there as long as the owners allow him to be there and if he says that Vick cannot play, Vick does not have much standing legally. Of course, I am not a lawyer, but I would have trouble seeing how the NFL would lose a case like that. Nobody is saying Vick cannot get a job. That does not mean that Vick has a right to whatever job he wants.

I am at a loss to convey the meaning of the ERA to the posters here. Vick would absolutely have standing if the Patriots say they want to hire him and some unelected "official" bars him from that, after a REAL judge has meted out and he has served his real sentence. The owners also have no standing to bar someone from a job.

 

Again, slippery slope, first bar this guy because he killed dogs, then that guy because his mother speaks only Russian.

 

Anyway, lets just leave it off, hopefully the Bills do not want him. Done.

[K-9]

... Nobody is saying Vick cannot get a job. That does not mean that Vick has a right to whatever job he wants.

 

Yes. And that's the key distinction. Good clarification.

 

I'm still not convinced about the Commissioner's power to supercede all. As mentioned earlier, the NFL has been sued, their by-laws and commissioner enforcement of those by-laws notwithstanding, and the league lost. The Al Davis cases are the ones that come to mind most readily.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[zazie]

Yes. And that's the key distinction. Good clarification.

 

I'm still not convinced about the Commissioner's power to supercede all. As mentioned earlier, the NFL has been sued, their by-laws and commissioner enforcement of those by-laws notwithstanding, and the league lost. The Al Davis cases are the ones that come to mind most readily.

 

GO BILLS!!!

You're right. Black guys have the right to work in 7-11, but not to EVERY job, is that your theory.

 

Yes, he has the equal right to EVERY job he may be qualified for.

[KRC]

Yes. And that's the key distinction. Good clarification.

 

That was my point all along.

 

 

 

I'm still not convinced about the Commissioner's power to supercede all. As mentioned earlier, the NFL has been sued, their by-laws and commissioner enforcement of those by-laws notwithstanding, and the league lost. The Al Davis cases are the ones that come to mind most readily.

 

As far as the commissioner, I guess the upcoming Supreme Court case might have an impact on how the NFL is viewed (single entity, etc).

[Mr. WEO]

I am at a loss to convey the meaning of the ERA to the posters here. Vick would absolutely have standing if the Patriots say they want to hire him and some unelected "official" bars him from that, after a REAL judge has meted out and he has served his real sentence. The owners also have no standing to bar someone from a job.

 

Again, slippery slope, first bar this guy because he killed dogs, then that guy because his mother speaks only Russian.

 

Anyway, lets just leave it off, hopefully the Bills do not want him. Done.

 

 

Yes, you are clearly at a loss.....

 

Look, playing for the NFL is not a right. It is a privilege (hard to believe I actually had to type that). If the commissioner says he is banned for life, no court can overturn this decision. This is a private corporation and the Commissioner would be acting under the powers given to him by the owners and agreed upon by the players.

 

Any debt paid to society for his crimes has nothing to do with his status in the league.

 

You don't really believe that a team can just "hire" a banned player, do you?

[KD in CA]

Yes, he has the equal right to EVERY job he may be qualified for.

 

 

BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ.......WRONG (but thanks for your pathetic attempt to invoke race into the discussion). He has a right to be CONSIDERED for every job he may be qualified for. And employers have a wide range of reasons for why they may choose not to hire him over other qualified candidates.

[zazie]

That was my point all along.

 

 

 

 

 

As far as the commissioner, I guess the upcoming Supreme Court case might have an impact on how the NFL is viewed (single entity, etc).

Incredible! Equal Rights... does that not say it all??????

 

The right to NOT BE DISCRIMINATED AGAINST.... ie the right to every job.

 

I have to stop really you are just too effing stupid for words.

[KD in CA]

I have to stop really you are just too effing stupid for words.

What you need to do is take a remedial English class since you are currently too uneducated to understand the distinction being made.

 

The right to NOT BE DISCRIMINATED AGAINST.... ie the right to every job.

The right to "not be discriminated against" IS NOT THE SAME THING as "the right to every job". Things that are different are not the same.

 

 

But please go ahead and keep posting. I love when people get hysterical and start calling others 'stupid' when displaying their ignorance in a public forum.

[KD in CA]

p.s. thank you Simon.

[K-9]

You're right. Black guys have the right to work in 7-11, but not to EVERY job, is that your theory.

 

Yes, he has the equal right to EVERY job he may be qualified for.

 

You're applying and confusing laws pertaining to the mandates of the EEOC. I don't see the relevance to the Vick situation. If denied the right to play in the NFL, he can and should sue as he has a consitutional right to seek redress in the courts. He doesn't have a 'right' to the job as employers may find reasons 'other' than those regulated by the EEOC to NOT employ him.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Ramius]

Incredible! Equal Rights... does that not say it all??????

 

The right to NOT BE DISCRIMINATED AGAINST.... ie the right to every job.

 

I have to stop really you are just too effing stupid for words.

 

Please answer why every job application i have ever filled out asks if you've been convicted of a crime.

[K-9]

Yes, you are clearly at a loss.....

 

Look, playing for the NFL is not a right. It is a privilege (hard to believe I actually had to type that). If the commissioner says he is banned for life, no court can overturn this decision. This is a private corporation and the Commissioner would be acting under the powers given to him by the owners and agreed upon by the players.

 

Any debt paid to society for his crimes has nothing to do with his status in the league.

 

You don't really believe that a team can just "hire" a banned player, do you?

 

I disagree that once the commissioner has acted that's that. As I've pointed out, the NFL has been sued and lost several times. The by-laws and commissioner's rulings notwitstanding. It's not as cut and dried as "the commisioner has final say."

 

GO BILLS!!!

[The Dean]

That's exactly what he'd do. He'll come in for a few plays a game and run the wildcat. A creative team would line him up in different positions all over the field and utilize his talent. He's not going to come in, 2 years out of the league, and be a standard drop back QB. It's just not going to happen.

 

 

Putting aside Vick's personal character for a moment, I think this is the best Vick can hope for in the NFL. As you note, a creative team would find a way to use him, despite his limitations at QB and his two-year absence from the game.

 

Does anyone really believe the Bills are "a creative team"?

[Mr. WEO]

I disagree that once the commissioner has acted that's that. As I've pointed out, the NFL has been sued and lost several times. The by-laws and commissioner's rulings notwitstanding. It's not as cut and dried as "the commisioner has final say."

 

GO BILLS!!!

Actions of the commssioner regarding punishment have not been challenged. The suits the NFL lost were in regards to anti-trust issues.

 

If the agreed upon (by both the employer and the emplyee/union) conditions for employment termination have been properly followed, a court challenge will not succeed. Unless an employee is being unlawfully descriminated against or was terminated in way inconsistent with the rules agreed upon, no court would ever hear such a case.

[The Dean]

this article explains why the punishment is a lot more harsh than it seems on the surface. Makes some good points.

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/stor...&id=4359839

 

 

It does? I must have missed that part.

[Cookiemonster]

LOL.

Skoob, glad you liked, you provide me with LOL's too. Seriously though, your petitioning

is starting to sway my thinking, why would it be so bad, we would have added security

for the glove wearing Mary, and a real wild card there, we could really keep defenses off

balance. As far as punishment goes, he paid his debt to society. We could use the added

publicity, probably generate more fan interest as well, the kind Ralph likes, regional, but

also very much nationally. It might just be the fire that needs set under Trent's butt. Sorry,

I forgot, that the mention of Trent's butt really sends you in to a tizzy.

[K-9]

Actions of the commssioner regarding punishment have not been challenged. The suits the NFL lost were in regards to anti-trust issues.

 

If the agreed upon (by both the employer and the emplyee/union) conditions for employment termination have been properly followed, a court challenge will not succeed. Unless an employee is being unlawfully descriminated against or was terminated in way inconsistent with the rules agreed upon, no court would ever hear such a case.

 

It doesn't matter what the suits were about only that the NFL's by-laws were challenged and they lost.

 

Look, I doubt Vick's case EVER gets that far. Why do you think the commissioner re-instated the likes of Little in St. Louis, PacMan Jones, and on and on? Because, if he had tried to ban them for life, they would most certainly be challenged. And many people agree the NFL would have lost in court.

 

This is a moot point. Goodell suspended Vick to make sure he won't overshadow the opening day of the new season. I don't see the suspension going beyond a couple weeks and nowhere NEAR the six it may extend to. That's why Goodell's language is specifically vague in the ruling.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[K-9]

I'm not seeing the constitutional angle. Unless I'm misunderstanding something, he has no constitutional claim in any court. The NFL is not a state actor, and therefore it can't violate your constitutional rights. He might have some claim under state law or Title VII, though I can't fathom what sort of claim he could bring; there's no "discrimination on the basis of criminal history" claim.

 

I agree. I'm just saying he has the right to sue. I'm not saying a court will find merit in a case. I'm not saying he won't have a hard time constructing one to be heard in the first place. Just that he has a right to file a lawsuit if he feels he has suffered damages as a result of league action. Kinda like the Clarrett case. Yes, it was eventually overturned by a higher court but he challenged the NFL by-law regarding the requirement for a players' high school class to be three years removed before a player could become eligible.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[The Senator]

You do have the right to play in the nfl if any team wants you. Constitutionally.

 

You are the real moronic inferno. Not worth discussing with you anymore as you clearly cannot grasp even the simplest concepts.

 

Who does employ you, I wonder? Man...

I believe I do have a constitutional right to vote, yes? Unless, of course, I am - like Michael Vick - a convicted felon.

 

Vick has no 'right', constitutional or otherwise, to play in the NFL, period - and the level of ignorance displayed in this thread by certain individuals professing knowledge of constitutional rights and the law is highly amusing. Even more amusing is the arrogant condescension they project while demonstrating their own ignorance.

 

Vick already had a job in the NFL and, through his own actions and consequences, forfeited that job. Discrimination does not apply, or even exist, in this case. In addition to Vick's egregious violations of the NFL's Personal Conduct Policy, the NFL specifically does not allow its players to be involved in any form of gambling, and even first-time offenders risk being banned for life. Therefore, the NFL is well within their legal rights and boundaries should they choose to ban Michael Vick for life.

 

BTW, armchair lawyer - when an employee is justifiably terminated 'for cause', companies can and often do state that an employee is not eligible for rehire. Vick's extremely fortunate that Goodell has given him an opportunity to redeem the career that Vick himself threw away as a result of his barbaric behavior.

 

There you go.

[yall]

Vick, the recidivist scumbag...what's up next for the guy? Killing cats?

Honestly, what he did was cruel to animals, but he spent time in jail for it, and there are a ton of NFL players who commit equally as cruel crimes against human beings who don't go to jail or get suspended by Goodell (e.g., domestic abuse).

 

That said, I agree with you that Florence's quote is a slap in the face to TE. I would think a new guy on a team who is a really long shot to make it would keep his mouth shut.

 

Recidivism:

 

1. repeated or habitual relapse, as into crime.

2. Psychiatry. the chronic tendency toward repetition of criminal or antisocial behavior patterns.

 

Aside from the litany of crimes involving dog fighting, conspiracy, and gambling, let's not forget the illegal drug charges as well as the 'Ron Mexico' nonsense.

 

He pretty much has shown himself to be a career criminal.

[The Dean]

Recidivism:

 

1. repeated or habitual relapse, as into crime.

2. Psychiatry. the chronic tendency toward repetition of criminal or antisocial behavior patterns.

 

Aside from the litany of crimes involving dog fighting, conspiracy, and gambling, let's not forget the illegal drug charges as well as the 'Ron Mexico' nonsense.

 

He pretty much has shown himself to be a career criminal.

 

 

Indeed. As far as I know, an employer is allowed to use a criminal record as a legit reason to deny employment. Allowing Vick to return to the NFL before he has shown he can operate withing the law, while a free man, is a bad idea, IMO. Suspending Vick for another year would have at least given teams the ability to evaluate his ability to stay away from trouble when he is out of jail. Any team that employs him should be very concerned about his criminal past.

 

A poster asks, "what's up next for the guy? Killing cats?" Perhaps. Or, maybe it's running a different illegal gambling operation, finding a different way to launder money, skip paying taxes or steal. I hear there is an opening in the illegal trading of human organs. Maybe he'll become a mega-pimp, with the largest stable of whores in the Atlanta area. I don't know, for sure, but his past is filled with an assortment of illegal activity...some of it extremely sick criminal activity.

 

What is clear is, simply making multiple millions to play in the NFL isn't enough for Vick. An employer should be concerned about what other side opportunities Vick might decide to pursue, and should be extremely concerned about having such a sick motherfuc#er be a public representative of their organization.

[thebug]

The league has let him back in, end of story. (for now)

[The Dean]

The league has let him back in, end of story. (for now)

 

 

In other words, the beginning of the next chapter.

[thebug]

In other words, the beginning of the next chapter.

 

 

sequel

[MattyT]

Recidivism:

 

1. repeated or habitual relapse, as into crime.

2. Psychiatry. the chronic tendency toward repetition of criminal or antisocial behavior patterns.

 

Aside from the litany of crimes involving dog fighting, conspiracy, and gambling, let's not forget the illegal drug charges as well as the 'Ron Mexico' nonsense.

 

He pretty much has shown himself to be a career criminal.

At least he's got family to support him.

[Hazed and Amuzed]

So just a couple of questions to all in the anti-Vick camp: If the Bills DO sign him, will you root for him when he's in the game? Will you drop the standards of your personal morals if bringing him in as a gimmick/backup QB means that the playoffs might be abound?

 

There were a LOT of T.O. haters dancing around here until T.O. was signed...

 

I am no advocate of Michael Vick and never have been, I just don't like the guy, furthermore what he did to those dogs is atrocious and horrible, however I am not his judge nor his jury and because of that I stand on the fence about both his reinstatement and the possibility of the Bills signing him. I wouldn't hang out with the guy but also I'm not sure I would hate it if he was a Bill and if that meant a playoff birth in the wings. In today's NFL/NBA/MLB lots of teams have thugs and criminals and we tolerate it, what Vick did however stands out because of it's cruelty. I think some are more sensitive to this then others, I for one am.

 

Michael Vick is a Son of a B word for what he did but the NFL is full of SOB's...

[The Dean]

So just a couple of questions to all in the anti-Vick camp: If the Bills DO sign him, will you root for him when he's in the game? Will you drop the standards of your personal morals if bringing him in as a gimmick/backup QB means that the playoffs might be abound?

 

There were a LOT of T.O. haters dancing around here until T.O. was signed...

 

I am no advocate of Michael Vick and never have been, I just don't like the guy, furthermore what he did to those dogs is atrocious and horrible, however I am not his judge nor his jury and because of that I stand on the fence about both his reinstatement and the possibility of the Bills signing him. I wouldn't hang out with the guy but also I'm not sure I would hate it if he was a Bill and if that meant a playoff birth in the wings. In today's NFL/NBA/MLB lots of teams have thugs and criminals and we tolerate it, what Vick did however stands out because of it's cruelty. I think some are more sensitive to this then others, I for one am.

 

Michael Vick is a Son of a B word for what he did but the NFL is full of SOB's...

 

 

Good question. I probably will stop rooting for the Bills while he is on the team. I can handle the team employing SOB's, but not career criminals who I suspect are seriously evil human beings. It's one thing to find you have one on the team. It is quite another to actively pursue a person you know (or seriously suspect) has enormous indefensible character issues.

 

Now, if I decide to continue to root for the Bills, I will root for Vick to succeed when he is on the field, and I don't think I can handle that.

 

Fortunately Vick will never be a Buffalo Bill, IMO.

[Hazed and Amuzed]

Good question. I probably will stop rooting for the Bills while he is on the team. I can handle the team employing SOB's, but not career criminals who I suspect are seriously evil human beings. It's one thing to find you have one on the team. It is quite another to actively pursue a person you know (or seriously suspect) has enormous indefensible character issues.

 

Now, if I decide to continue to root for the Bills, I will root for Vick to succeed when he is on the field, and I don't think I can handle that.

 

Fortunately Vick will never be a Buffalo Bill, IMO.

 

 

How's life been Dean?

[The Dean]

How's life been Dean?

 

 

Just sent you a PM.

[Jerry Jabber]

Lots of convicted felons make money on such things as talk radio and lecture circuit. Even Martha Stewart still makes a bundle. I am not saying I want Vick anywhere near Bills but you exaggerate too much.

 

I exaggerate too much?? Really??!! If the average person were to get convicted of the same things Vick did, do you honestly think their employer would hire them back? Hell no!!! Do you think that person would be able get a decent job as a convicted felon? Hell no, who wants to hire a convicted felon?? It's a double standard when it comes to athlete's & celebrities. Vick is a sick scum bag that does not deserve a second chance in the NFL.

[yall]

So just a couple of questions to all in the anti-Vick camp: If the Bills DO sign him, will you root for him when he's in the game? Will you drop the standards of your personal morals if bringing him in as a gimmick/backup QB means that the playoffs might be abound?

 

Nope. Like Dean, I'm not rooting for or supporting the Bills if he were to get signed.

 

But also like Dean, I'm not worried about it actually happening

 

There were a LOT of T.O. haters dancing around here until T.O. was signed...

 

T.O. isn't a criminal.

 

Michael Vick is a Son of a B word for what he did but the NFL is full of SOB's...

 

Doesn't mean there should be, or that I have to like the idea of there being any on my hometown's team.

 

Also - I'm in love with your avatar

[The Dean]

Nope. Like Dean, I'm not rooting for or supporting the Bills if he were to get signed.

 

But also like Dean, I'm worried about it actually happening

 

 

I believe you mean NOT worried. I'm certainly not worried.

 

 

 

Also - I'm in love with your avatar

 

 

Bong envy?

[yall]

I believe you mean NOT worried. I'm certainly not worried.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Bong envy?

 

Yes "not" - good catch!

 

Regarding the avatar, I'm just gonna say that I like it in its entirety...

[Mr. WEO]

I believe I do have a constitutional right to vote, yes? Unless, of course, I am - like Michael Vick - a convicted felon.

 

Vick has no 'right', constitutional or otherwise, to play in the NFL, period - and the level of ignorance displayed in this thread by certain individuals professing knowledge of constitutional rights and the law is highly amusing. Even more amusing is the arrogant condescension they project while demonstrating their own ignorance.

 

Vick already had a job in the NFL and, through his own actions and consequences, forfeited that job. Discrimination does not apply, or even exist, in this case. In addition to Vick's egregious violations of the NFL's Personal Conduct Policy, the NFL specifically does not allow its players to be involved in any form of gambling, and even first-time offenders risk being banned for life. Therefore, the NFL is well within their legal rights and boundaries should they choose to ban Michael Vick for life.

 

BTW, armchair lawyer - when an employee is justifiably terminated 'for cause', companies can and often do state that an employee is not eligible for rehire. Vick's extremely fortunate that Goodell has given him an opportunity to redeem the career that Vick himself threw away as a result of his barbaric behavior.

 

There you go.

 

The Senator is right---especially this zazzie guy.

 

Look, K-9, if your point is that anyone can sue anyone for anything, I won't argue against that. But this case would be hopeless, if it was ever heard. No one has challenged the Commish. They all sign a contract which spells out the conditions under which they remain employed by the NFL. They, through thier union, have all agreed that the Commish alone sets the punishment and he alone considers the appeal. There would therefore be no basis for the suit.

[Simon]

p.s. thank you Simon.

This is definitely the hardest time of the year to strike a balance between a completely open forum and riding herd on cats. As we say around these parts, 'preciate the 'preciate.

[Mr. WEO]

This is definitely the hardest time of the year to strike a balance between a completely open forum and riding herd on cats. As we say around these parts, 'preciate the 'preciate.

There are 6 threads dedicated solely to TO in training camp (two started by the same person), three dedicated to TOs TV show and one titled "TO eats a bowl of cereal".

[X. Benedict]

I exaggerate too much?? Really??!! If the average person were to get convicted of the same things Vick did, do you honestly think their employer would hire them back? Hell no!!! Do you think that person would be able get a decent job as a convicted felon? Hell no, who wants to hire a convicted felon?? It's a double standard when it comes to athlete's & celebrities. Vick is a sick scum bag that does not deserve a second chance in the NFL.

 

Double standard?

 

How many regular people are prosecuted under Conspiracy to Travel in the Aid of Unlawful Activities statutes?

 

He was probably targeted and prosecuted precisely because he wasn't a average person.

[Simon]

There are 6 threads dedicated solely to TO in training camp (two started by the same person), three dedicated to TOs TV show and one titled "TO eats a bowl of cereal".

When I look at the front page I see 3 TO threads, 1 about his TV show, 1 about his reception (no pun intended) at camp and one about his impact on the receiving corps.

Considering the subject matter and the fact a couple have already been merged I don't find this number excessive enough to start making alterations to the board. And it pales in comparison to the 10-15 Vick threads that have been merged in the last 24 hours.

[Mr. WEO]

When I look at the front page I see 3 TO threads, 1 about his TV show, 1 about his reception (no pun intended) at camp and one about his impact on the receiving corps.

Considering the subject matter and the fact a couple have already been merged I don't find this number excessive enough to start making alterations to the board. And it pales in comparison to the 10-15 Vick threads that have been merged in the last 24 hours.

Just sayin...

[BarkLessWagMore]

Good question. I probably will stop rooting for the Bills while he is on the team. I can handle the team employing SOB's, but not career criminals who I suspect are seriously evil human beings. It's one thing to find you have one on the team. It is quite another to actively pursue a person you know (or seriously suspect) has enormous indefensible character issues.

 

Now, if I decide to continue to root for the Bills, I will root for Vick to succeed when he is on the field, and I don't think I can handle that.

 

Fortunately Vick will never be a Buffalo Bill, IMO.

 

From the horse's mouth, Russ Brandon confirms the Bills are not interested in Vick. Thank god.