This roster is a disaster however…..

[newcam2012]

4 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

There's a difference from being disappointed, which is natural - I'm disappointed, too - and concluding the roster is a disaster or that the coach and/or GM are doing a bad job.  Stuff happens, and stuff happened to the Bills, so sure, we're disappointed. McDermott is 6th among active coaches in wins, and he's fourth in winning percentage.  Are the Packers firing Matt LaFleur because he hasn't won a Super Bowl?

 

Might someone else at GM or head coach have won a Super Bowl by now?  Sure, someone. Since McDermott was hired, there probably have been 50 head coach hires. None has a better winning percentage and only three - Sirianni, Zac Taylor, and Dan Quinn - have better playoff winning percentages. 

 

Disappointed?  Yes, but the reality is that the Bills hired one of the very best head coaches available in the past ten years, and one of the best GMs.

 

There's a lot of good discussion to be had about what could or should be done differently, but someone needs to respond to the people on here making up stuff, such as the roster is a disaster.  I know you didn't say that, but you got me going! 

Didn't mean to get you going. Hope this doesn't get you going more. 

 

Not many have stated the case that McD and Beane aren't good. Imho, that's not really up for debate. The real question is are they good enough? That depends on a lot of variables such as  expectations, desires, how someone views football, etc... 

 

I've contended for years that McD isn't good enough. I wanted him gone right after 13 seconds. I've been pretty neutral on Beane. I've never been on the McD sucks train but certainly on the let's move on train because I don't think he can get it done. I think he's had ample chances with Allen as elite QB. It's been one disappointing playoff exit after another for several years.

 

I've seen enough and it sure feels like ground hog day to me. I firmly believe coaching changes from top to bottom are needed. Brady and Babich are second rate McD picks.

 

I'm not an advocate of being a run first team when you have the best QB in the league. This regime has failed to arm Allen with weapons. That's borderline criminal.

 

The McD defense and make no mistake about it's been his defense for years falis woefully short come playoff time. 

 

Yet, the McD apologists continue to give us statistics and continue to tell us how good he is. He's a great team builder, culture builder, and a nice guy. No debating this. What he's not thus far is someone who can lead the Bills to a Super Bowl. Isn't that the goal? Hasn't that been a realistic goal the last few years despite its level of difficulty? Ask yourself what has prevented the Bills from hoisting the Lombardi trophy? Ask yourself if meaningful change is needed? 

 

Go Bills!!!

Edited 15 hours ago by newcam2012

[FireChans]

2 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

Are the Packers firing Matt LaFleur because he hasn't won a Super Bowl?

They are legitimately talking about letting LaFleur and the GM go and neither got extensions pending this season.

 

Follow the league one time for me.

 

https://www.nbcsports.com/nfl/profootballtalk/rumor-mill/news/packers-wont-extend-contracts-of-brian-gutekunst-matt-lafleur-before-this-season

 

”That means LaFleur and Gutekunst are expected to either have contract extensions this time next year or the Packers will fire them after the 2025 season”

[newcam2012]

1 hour ago, FireChans said:

They are legitimately talking about letting LaFleur and the GM go and neither got extensions pending this season.

 

Follow the league one time for me.

 

https://www.nbcsports.com/nfl/profootballtalk/rumor-mill/news/packers-wont-extend-contracts-of-brian-gutekunst-matt-lafleur-before-this-season

 

”That means LaFleur and Gutekunst are expected to either have contract extensions this time next year or the Packers will fire them after the 2025 season”

Tomlin is on the hot seat too. 

 

Not sure who follows the NBA. They often fire very good coaches for various reasons. Most of them move on to different teams. Sometimes they are successful other times not so much. Point being lots of organizations aren't afraid to move on even if the coach is very good. Sometimes a team needs a change. 

Edited 16 hours ago by newcam2012

[Nuncha]

On 12/8/2025 at 6:30 AM, Xwnyer said:

Even though Beane has done a terrible job assembling this roster we are still in the hunt for a playoff spot and have a remote chance of finishing first in the East.  Meanwhile teams like Bengals, Ravens and Chiefs are almost eliminated from the playoffs yet people thought those rosters are in much better shape than ours.  Could you imagine if Josh had the weapons Burrow has or we had a defense that can actually generate pressure on the QB?  We are lucky we have Superman on our side but it would be nice if he had a supporting cast like the Superman has with the Justice League 😀

 

If we don’t win the east being the fifth seed won’t be a bad thing Pitt and Balt are terrible and as long as Cincy doesn’t end up winning that division I can see us winning a playoff game on the road.

Quit your day job, become an NFL GM, and then put together a roster that EVERY fan on earth agrees with.   Good luck.

[Billsatlastin2018]

2 hours ago, folz said:

 

Some of you guys act like none of that (except for Josh) balances out any weaknesses we have at the WR position.

It is helpful, but it never ever in 2025,  balances out a total absence of talent at WR! Try and name one Lombardi winner who relied on TEs and a RB. HASN’t happened.

 

The Bills rely on one superhuman person, who must every, freaking game, put on his cape to overcome the terrible deficiencies of mgt. in constructing the Offence!

 

Unless he is running wild to both run and buy time for the ZERO Separation Squad and Cook is doing his break through thing, they are dead!

 

 

[hondo in seattle]

On 12/8/2025 at 4:04 AM, GaryPinC said:

Good point, but did Beane purposefully design it this way or is it because he fails to draft game changing talent and this is what we're left with?

 

I think it's kind of both.  Beane is always kicking tires.  He seems to be obsessed with depth.   Considering how many injuries we seem to suffer, this is a good thing.   

But he knows he needs game changers and has had some whiffs both in the draft and free agency.  

[GaryPinC]

4 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

Excuse me, but this is largely nonsense. 

 

The only difference maker you trade up for is a quarterback like, as you say, the Chiefs did. But, of course, you ignore that the Bills did exactly the same thing a year later to get Allen.  You do not make moves like that, way up into the first round, for a receiver. They simply aren't worth it. 

 

I've never liked Metcalf (I think he isn't a team player) and Pickens got traded on his rookie contract, so that tells you something about him.  But even given that, of course you can find good receivers in later rounds. If you actually thought about it for, say, two and a half seconds, you'd remember that Beane did exactly that when he found Shakir. The whole league passed on Metcalf, Pickens, and Collins, not just Beane. Whenever a star emerges from later rounds, it means everyone misjudged him. Zay Flowers is playing with a Hall of Fame quarterback, and he's about to miss the playoffs altogether. 

 

You're right, Elam and Coleman were mistakes. Everyone makes mistakes. 

 

And you're missing the fundamental point: The Bills do not want to use large resources on receivers. They can get the same production from a receiver by committee approach, and it doesn't cost as much. The Bills are fifth in passer rating and they are 11th in yards per game, which is fine because they are first in rushing yards per game and second in total yards per game. They are fifth in points per game.  They wouldn't have won more games if they had Zay Flowers. 

You're right, Mahomes is not a valid argument to try and make and isn't important to my point, my apologies.  I'm also not suggesting we move up to #10 to get a receiver.  My point is that the Bills can find talent at the back of the first and into the second round if they put the effort in, which may include moving up 5-10 spots or so.  So the "we're drafting at the end of rounds, woe is us" doesn't hold much water for me at this point.  We have Josh Allen.

 

You seem to be missing the fundamental point that if the Bills want to win a Superbowl they need to use better resources on receivers and the front seven on defense.  Get the proper scouting system in, it doesn't have to be trading way up to grab a guy.   8 years in and the scouts and/or Beane blew the Coleman pick so badly?  It shouldn't happen at this point, that high in the draft.  What a wasted resource.  That's why we can't make it to the Superbowl.  

 

You can quote regular season statistics and if that's adequate for you, no problem. We do well in the regular season.  The playoffs are the thing,  I don't believe this year's receiving statistics will translate to a Superbowl, so we can agree to disagree and see.  

 

And if there was a game changing DE or LB that fell to number 10, I would absolutely mortgage picks to move up and get him.  We sorely need one.  JMO of course.

[philholbroo]

roster is not a disaster. there are players other teams are singling out on where they are attacking- taron, cam, and knowing when the soft zone is easy to attack as well. injury has been a big story for the pass catching positions-kincaid, palmer, samuel. but a combo of palmer, coleman, kincaid, and shakir is a pretty good threat for any qb much less josh.

[RochesterLifer]

The thread title is absurd and the OP should be embarrassed.

[HardyBoy]

On 12/8/2025 at 6:58 AM, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

Good point about depth v. game changers.  But what SB team has been built with mangaing injuries yet to happen in mind? Build for depth and a team helmed by a once in a franchise lifetime QB gets pushed around by the likes of Miami and Atlanta.

 

Most of the Patriots superbowl teams, they just didn't have the amount of injuries on defense, except that time they had Troy Brown playing defense

[FireChans]

1 hour ago, newcam2012 said:

Tomlin is on the hot seat too. 

 

Not sure who follows the NBA. They often fire very good coaches for various reasons. Most of them move on to different teams. Sometimes they are successful other times not so much. Point being lots of organizations aren't afraid to move on even if the coach is very good. Sometimes a team needs a change. 

Folks just don’t follow the NFL.

 

NBA is different because imo HCing in that league is like 95% managing personalities.

 

They think this regime is uniquely discriminated against with expectations. Like there hasn’t been unrest behind Harbaugh for the last 5 seasons for the Ravens not breaking through. They don’t think that’s the case because they don’t pay attention and exclusively follow the Bills.

 

When you have a top tier elite QB, the expectation is more than “we won the division.” 

[newcam2012]

1 hour ago, Billsatlastin2018 said:

It is helpful, but it never ever in 2025,  balances out a total absence of talent at WR! Try and name one Lombardi winner who relied on TEs and a RB. HASN’t happened.

 

The Bills rely on one superhuman person, who must every, freaking game, put on his cape to overcome the terrible deficiencies of mgt. in constructing the Offence!

 

Unless he is running wild to both run and buy time for the ZERO Separation Squad and Cook is doing his break through thing, they are dead!

 

 

I think the plan is to have a dominant and great running game to take the pressure off Allen. To a degree it has been effective. However, the neglect, poor moves, or incompetence of the Bills regime at the WR position is clear.

 

I just really question that offensive philosophy. Why? You have arguably the best QB on the planet. I want the ball in his hands more not him handing off the ball 30 times. Game script is really enhanced when teams are too run dependent. 

 

Instead, I would have gotten bonafide WRs who can stretch the field, make dynamic plays, and break open a game. Instead, the Bills focused on the tight end position. 

 

The offense still is good mostly because of Allen. Cook and the Oline certainly contribute in a big way. Frankly, this offenseive philosophy is flawed and doesn't give the Bills it's best chance to win a super bowl. 

[folz]

6 hours ago, Billsatlastin2018 said:

It is helpful, but it never ever in 2025,  balances out a total absence of talent at WR! Try and name one Lombardi winner who relied on TEs and a RB. HASN’t happened.

 

The Bills rely on one superhuman person, who must every, freaking game, put on his cape to overcome the terrible deficiencies of mgt. in constructing the Offence!

 

Unless he is running wild to both run and buy time for the ZERO Separation Squad and Cook is doing his break through thing, they are dead!

 

 

 

I guess you haven't heard of the New England Patriots...

 

Wide receivers on New England's Super Bowl winning teams:

2002: Troy Brown and David Patten. There wasn't even a third receiver in the box score for the SB, all of the other receptions went to RBs and TEs.

2004: Deion Branch, David Givens, Troy Brown

2005: Deion Branch, David Givens, Troy Brown

2015: Julian Edelman, Danny Amendola, and Brandon LaFell

2017: Julian Edelman, Danny Amendola, and Chris Hogan

2019: Julian Edelman, Chris Hogan, Corderelle Patterson

 

And that's only looking at the Pats, not checking every SB. Here's a few more just off the top of my head. And that's not even looking into the early Super Bowls when passing wasn't as prevalent.

 

2001 Ravens: Brandon Stokley and Qadry Ismail

1985 Bears: Willie Gault and Dennis McKinnon.

2003 Tampa Bay: Keyshawn Johnson and Joe Jurevicius

 

Sure, great defenses for those teams, but just saying there are more than one way to win. And it actually has been done a number of times without a stud receiver and/or with a pretty mediocre WR room.

 

To the second bolded statement. This is just not true. There have definitely been games this year that Josh did not have to put his cape on...we just saw it in the Steelers game for one. And that wasn't the only game. The funny thing is when we do have one of those games, then you guys complain that we are wasting Josh's talents by making him a game manager. So, you want him to throw the ball all over the field, but then when he does, you guys complain that he has to do too much. Seems to me that the coaches/FO are in a lose/lose scenario with that type of thinking. Just as you guys think McBeane supporters think everything they do is right (which we don't), you guys obviously see everything they do as wrong, even if it was what you wanted them to do. Like your entire opinion on the team, coaching, and front office is completely dependent on us not having a stud receiver. Seems a very narrow way to look at things, imo.

 

 

One last note: You said, "total absence of talent at WR." There is a big difference between being an average WR room (or a room without a stud) and having no talent at all. He's not a stud #1 outside receiver, but I think most NFL fans and analysts would say that Shakir is a pretty talented player. We added Cooks, who again is not a stud and is older, but he still has talent. Palmer has proven he can at least be a good #3 WR in his career (not so much in Buffalo yet, partly due to injuries). Gabe didn't do well in Jax, but he was a decent #2 for us previously, Keon is not in a great position right now, but he was an early 2nd round pick, so he has talent (whether it ever comes together consistently on the field is another question). Again just saying, big difference between being a mediocre room and a room completely void of talent.

 

Edited 10 hours ago by folz

[GunnerBill]

6 hours ago, Billsatlastin2018 said:

It is helpful, but it never ever in 2025,  balances out a total absence of talent at WR! Try and name one Lombardi winner who relied on TEs and a RB. HASN’t happened.

 

The Bills rely on one superhuman person, who must every, freaking game, put on his cape to overcome the terrible deficiencies of mgt. in constructing the Offence!

 

Unless he is running wild to both run and buy time for the ZERO Separation Squad and Cook is doing his break through thing, they are dead!

 

 

 

I mean tight end, running back and slot receiver (plus an excellebt OL) won plenty of Superbowls for New England. On their second era dynasty who was the best outside receiver to play on any of those teams? Chris Hogan? Brandon LaFell? Maybe I am forgetting someone but I don't think so. 

 

That isn't me advocating for that type of roster build by the way. My views on the Bills issues at outside receiver are well known... and it goes without saying Josh Allen is not Tom Brady. I think Brady might be the only QB in history that could nickel and dime you to death with that set of slill players. Worth saying as well that when healthy Gronk was an all timer at tight end. Kincaid and Knox are nice. They are not that.

[GunnerBill]

18 minutes ago, folz said:

The funny thing is when we do have one of those games, then you guys complain that we are wasting Josh's talents by making him a game manager. So, you want him to throw the ball all over the field, but then when he does, you guys complain that he has to do too much. 

 

This is definitely true btw. The same people who moan about overuse of the cape moan about running the ball and playing small ball too much as wasting Josh Allen.

 

Personally I do think he has needed the cape more this year though. 2024 is the least cape needy version of Allen and the Bills there has ever been IMO. Last year we won 5 or 6 games where the defense and the run game meant Josh could just play in rhythm take what the defense was giving and not have to extend himself. This year it is just the Jets, the Panthers and the Steelers so far. I'd go as far as to say we'd be a 3 win team right now if Allen had missed the season. 

[Ray Stonada]

 

8 hours ago, GaryPinC said:

8 years in and the scouts and/or Beane blew the Coleman pick so badly?  It shouldn't happen at this point, that high in the draft.  What a wasted resource.  That's why we can't make it to the Superbowl.  

 

Weird thing about the Coleman pick is that everybody was shocked because he was seen as limited and maybe a 3rd or 4th round talent.

 

By taking him where he did, Beane was basically saying, we see something no one else sees in Coleman, you'll all see.

 

And then he turns into exactly the limited player everybody said he would be, even with a ton of forced targets to his supposed strength, jump balls.

 

Except even worse, because his motivation seems completely sapped--maybe from being put in a position where he can't succeed. 

[FireChans]

3 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

2024 is the least cape needy version of Allen and the Bills there has ever been IMO. Last year we won 5 or 6 games where the defense and the run game meant Josh could just play in rhythm take what the defense was giving and not have to extend himself

Meh I completely disagree.

 

2024 felt that way because Josh was basically playing at a transcendent level from the Houston game on. He was still needing to scramble out of the pocket to hit long shots to Shakir or Mack Hollins to get the offense going. He just was playing as perfect as an NFL QB can play.
 

The difference between 2024 and 2025 is that teams respect us deep even less and have done their darnedest to take away Josh’s explosive plays made by his legs.

 

Combine that with Josh not being able to maintain playing basically perfect, and you get a laborious offense despite being captained by a superstar.

 

go back and watch 2020 Bills film. It was pitch and catch for Josh. He still did incredible things and made incredible plays, but his life was so much easier down to down.

Edited 6 hours ago by FireChans

[JGMcD2]

1 hour ago, Ray Stonada said:

 

 

Weird thing about the Coleman pick is that everybody was shocked because he was seen as limited and maybe a 3rd or 4th round talent.

 

By taking him where he did, Beane was basically saying, we see something no one else sees in Coleman, you'll all see.

 

And then he turns into exactly the limited player everybody said he would be, even with a ton of forced targets to his supposed strength, jump balls.

 

Except even worse, because his motivation seems completely sapped--maybe from being put in a position where he can't succeed. 

He was a projected anywhere from the late first to an early 3rd round pick, and the Patriots were planning to take him right after us. Stop trying to rewrite history. 

[Buffalo Boy]

On 12/8/2025 at 6:30 AM, Xwnyer said:

Even though Beane has done a terrible job assembling this roster we are still in the hunt for a playoff spot and have a remote chance of finishing first in the East.  Meanwhile teams like Bengals, Ravens and Chiefs are almost eliminated from the playoffs yet people thought those rosters are in much better shape than ours.  Could you imagine if Josh had the weapons Burrow has or we had a defense that can actually generate pressure on the QB?  We are lucky we have Superman on our side but it would be nice if he had a supporting cast like the Superman has with the Justice League 😀

 

If we don’t win the east being the fifth seed won’t be a bad thing Pitt and Balt are terrible and as long as Cincy doesn’t end up winning that division I can see us winning a playoff game on the road.

Yay

A playoff game

Yay

[Flipnmi]

16 hours ago, GaryPinC said:

 

Just a few examples: late first to third round All-pro or emerging receivers:

2019 DK Metcalf(2nd, #64)

2020. Brandon Aiyuk(1st, #25)

2021  Nico Collins (third, #89)

2022 George Pickens (2nd, #52)

2023 Zay Flowers (1st, 22)

 

Trying to say you have to pick top 10 is garbage.   Sure does help, but know what you need, have the right scouts and system in place, and top 10 is not necessary once you have Josh Allen.  I'm tired of the late route picking excuse.   We are an established winning franchise.  Some years, yes, you need extra picks because of roster turnover.

 

Other years you trade away picks to move up and get that one difference maker.  Like the Chiefs did in the 2017 draft when they moved to 10 from 27.

 

Shaw, you talk about Elam and Coleman, and rightly so.  Neither one has the brainpower, Coleman doesn't have the speed and Elam just wasn't a good fit for our system. 

 

That's a failure of our evaluation system.   Hopefully they fix that. Get the people in who can get it right. Honestly,  Coleman feels like they just picked him because Josh liked him, lol.

 

I agree these are all very good receivers and I would love to have any one of them on the Bills, but I would not call any of them real game changers. Since the original topic was not about receivers, I would add James Cook to the list as a great 2nd round pick that I'm sure most other teams wish they had made. If you look at the various lists of the top 50 players, it is littered with top 10 picks and the occassional mid-low round pick that just breaks out. My real point is that many people just look at the hits that other GM's have made and totally ignore their misses when evaluating Beane. Yes, he has made mistakes and had some busts, but so does every other GM in the league. If you can give me an example of a GM that consistently hits, I'd love to hear it.

FYI, the late round pick comment is not an excuse, it's just a statement of reality that the odds of getting a game changer are much lower in the bottom 5 picks and the ability to trade up is greatly diminished based on the value of those picks.

That said, you be you and just keep focusing on the Elams & Colemans and ignore the Cooks, Browns & Benfords.

Edited 5 hours ago by Flipnmi