Coaches are heavily implying that Coleman isn’t trying on the field

[GoBills808]

3 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

Shakir is open for a five yard gain on that play but the play design is to the other side. The TE is covered and Cook is gonna get blown up after a 4-5 yard gain. No one else is open. They just look open because the ball not being thrown in a particular direction means that NFL defenders are not going to break on the ball (hence the spacing between DBs and receivers, which in reality isn't much spacing at all). 

Correct imo

 

The fact that Coleman isn't sharp on this particular route is pertinent because his rub combo w Samuel is pretty clearly one of the reads here, Shakir I don't believe is an option

[Einstein]

22 minutes ago, Simon said:

 

I don't know if you quite have to go there, but I was definitely b'ing and moaning early in the Dolphins game about them not making even the slightest bit of effort whatsoever to run the offense at any kind of pace.

 

I was also b’ing and moaning in the late 3rd when they were running an offense at a pace you would expect to see when you had a two score lead

[quincy]

59 minutes ago, Low Positive said:

 

 

 

At eleven seconds, Samuel is open with only one man to beat and there is an 8 yard cushion, Samuel is on the 42 and the Dolphins safety is at the 50 and that could have been a 20 yard gain at minimum with a bullet from Josh and then Samuel is then doubled only after Josh begins to scramble to the right. I think there 3 receivers that could have been targeted on this play. 

 

Having looked at this play several times, it just shows you how long a second can be in the NFL, at one point also at eleven seconds, Samuel is at the 38, Josh is set, the pocket appears clean and an in stride reception could be a touchdown if Samuel wins the foot race because defensive attention is not directly at Samuel and he is only receiver running free with his body going towards the end zone. 

 

I might be wrong but it is what I think on this play!  

[Mr. WEO]

1 hour ago, GoBills808 said:

nah Davis and Coleman are basically the same talent wise, Davis just had the better attitude while he was here outside his penchat for getting into arguments w fans

 

Coleman can't separate from a toilet bowl after flushing.  not such a problem with Davis.  He was of infinitely more value for the draft pick than Coleman.

[GoBills808]

7 minutes ago, quincy said:

 

At eleven seconds, Samuel is open with only one man to beat and there is an 8 yard cushion, Samuel is on the 42 and the Dolphins safety is at the 50 and that could have been a 20 yard gain at minimum with a bullet from Josh and then Samuel is then doubled only after Josh begins to scramble to the right. I think there 3 receivers that could have been targeted on this play. 

 

Having looked at this play several times, it just shows you how long a second can be in the NFL, at one point also at eleven seconds, Samuel is at the 38, Josh is set, the pocket appears clean and an in stride reception could be a touchdown if Samuel wins the foot race because defensive attention is not directly at Samuel and he is only receiver running free with his body going towards the end zone. 

 

I might be wrong but it is what I think on this play!  

Yes the 8 to Samuel is definitely a read Allen turns down

 

would love to see a deep in from Kincaid there to hold the high safety vs that cover3 look

[gordong]

if the effort is not there then you sit him, it's very simple...  yet its not been done WHY?  put Moore out there he catches more passes then this scrub. 

 

[Shortchaz]

1 hour ago, Sierra Foothills said:

 

There's a saying I embrace which is that "If you're the smartest guy in the room, you're in the wrong room." So, no, I don't feel particularly smart but there's lots of people who are obviously stupid 🤣

 

 

There are definitely a lot of those, they usually espouse mid-wit bumper-sticker philosophy. 

Edited 2 hours ago by Shortchaz

[Alphadawg7]

2 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

lol what exactly is the mistake here? not throwing to coleman? ffs watch him on his release, he's moving in slow motion, he doesnt have a good feel for setting up that rub and gets passed over...happens 

 

 

It was 100% the mistake to not take 6 yards on 2nd and ten.  The fact you’re even debating it says you’re not gonna be objective in any conversation about this

[GoBills808]

10 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

It was 100% the mistake to not take 6 yards on 2nd and ten.  The fact you’re even debating it says you’re not gonna be objective in any conversation about this

I have no idea what you're talking about

 

The LOS is the 31. When Allen turns down the read to Coleman he's standing at the 33

[billieve420]

With Kincaid out for the next couple weeks want to see how Coleman does in the big slot position. Need to see if there is anything there.

[HappyDays]

6 hours ago, DCOrange said:

If Josh had just gotten the ball to him, we probably win that game and are celebrating a breakout performance from Coleman. It's not even an exaggeration to say a normal Josh performance probably results in Coleman having over 150 yards and at least 3 TDs this past week.

 

I think that's over selling it a bit. There's two throws which I think you are referring to, one along the left sideline where Allen threw it outside when it appeared that it should have been placed inside, and one along the right sideline that was underthrown (although Coleman could have still caught it off the tip). Here they are in order:

 

 

The first one of those is a low percentage play from any QB especially since the defender was practically riding Coleman's back downfield. Would have had to be an absolutely perfect throw 45 air yards downfield. Nice release from Coleman but he stumbles out of it and doesn't have vertical speed so there is no clean separation. You'd like to see better separation to make it an easier throw or maybe he draws DPI when the CB catches up.

 

The second one, I don't think that throw is even on the menu for most QBs. Looks like basic tampa 2. The throw ends up almost like hitting a honey hole shot except 35 air yards downfield which is obviously not typical. Because Coleman is jogging on his route Allen has to rip it in there to beat the buzzing flat defender which means he can't get air underneath it which makes it more challenging to have perfect ball placement. So yes Allen has the arm strength to theoretically hit this throw but that isn't a point in Coleman's favor. And it's not like he did anything special to separate here, he's just running (or, more aptly, jogging) behind the flat defender in tampa 2.

 

If Allen had hit both of these miraculous throws that would have been more akin to Gabe Davis' "breakout performance" against KC than a legit star turn from Coleman IMO. Especially given how poor he looked on almost every other rep throughout the game.

 

Edited 1 hour ago by HappyDays

[GoBills808]

5 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

I think that's over selling it a bit. There's two throws which I think you are referring to, one along the left sideline where Allen threw it outside when it appeared that it should have been placed inside, and one along the right sideline that was underthrown (although Coleman could have still caught it off the tip). Here they are in order:

 

 

The first one of those is a low percentage play from any QB especially since the defender was practically riding Coleman's back downfield. Would have had to be an absolutely perfect throw 45 air yards downfield. Nice release from Coleman but he stumbles out of it and doesn't have vertical speed so there is no clean separation. You'd like to see better separation to make it an easier throw or maybe he draws DPI when the CB catches up.

 

The second one, I don't think that throw is even on the menu for most QBs. Looks like basic tampa 2. The throw ends up almost like hitting a honey hole shot except 35 air yards downfield which is obviously not typical. Because Coleman is jogging on his route Allen has to rip it in there to beat the buzzing flat defender which means he can't get air underneath it which makes it more challenging to have perfect ball placement. So yes Allen has the arm strength to theoretically hit this throw but that isn't a point in Coleman's favor. And it's not like he did anything special to separate here, he's just running (or, more aptly, jogging) behind the flat defender in tampa 2.

 

If Allen had hit both of these miraculos throws that would have been more akin to Gabe Davis' "breakout performance" against KC than a legit star turn from Coleman IMO. Especially given how poor he looked on almost every other rep throughout the game.

have a hard time believing on the second one you can criticize the throw w out mentioning the route but thats cover1 for you smh

i mean come on that is about as minimal effort as can be

 

has the nerve to put up the mailbox too😂😂

[Coach Tuesday]

2 hours ago, dave mcbride said:

Shakir is open for a five yard gain on that play but the play design is to the other side. The TE is covered and Cook is gonna get blown up after a 4-5 yard gain. No one else is open. They just look open because the ball not being thrown in a particular direction means that NFL defenders are not going to break on the ball (hence the spacing between DBs and receivers, which in reality isn't much spacing at all). Also, @Alphadawg7, maybe you're looking at it differently, but Coleman at no point looks open to me until the very end of the play when it's dead anyway. He's bracketed by two DBs the entire team and there's a clean switch by the Miami secondary when he gets to the next, deeper level.

 

2 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

That play was infuriating! Every single WR is open and Josh didn’t throw to any of them! And then, after he inexplicably held onto the ball and scrambles to his stronger right side he has an intermediate WR wide open (Samuel?) just ten yards downfield and still doesn’t throw it to him. Ugh! 

 

Rashoman!

[Sierra Foothills]

29 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

I think that's over selling it a bit. There's two throws which I think you are referring to, one along the left sideline where Allen threw it outside when it appeared that it should have been placed inside, and one along the right sideline that was underthrown (although Coleman could have still caught it off the tip). Here they are in order:

 

 

The first one of those is a low percentage play from any QB especially since the defender was practically riding Coleman's back downfield. Would have had to be an absolutely perfect throw 45 air yards downfield. Nice release from Coleman but he stumbles out of it and doesn't have vertical speed so there is no clean separation. You'd like to see better separation to make it an easier throw or maybe he draws DPI when the CB catches up.

 

The second one, I don't think that throw is even on the menu for most QBs. Looks like basic tampa 2. The throw ends up almost like hitting a honey hole shot except 35 air yards downfield which is obviously not typical. Because Coleman is jogging on his route Allen has to rip it in there to beat the buzzing flat defender which means he can't get air underneath it which makes it more challenging to have perfect ball placement. So yes Allen has the arm strength to theoretically hit this throw but that isn't a point in Coleman's favor. And it's not like he did anything special to separate here, he's just running (or, more aptly, jogging) behind the flat defender in tampa 2.

 

If Allen had hit both of these miraculous throws that would have been more akin to Gabe Davis' "breakout performance" against KC than a legit star turn from Coleman IMO. Especially given how poor he looked on almost every other rep throughout the game.

 

 

I think you posted the same replay twice.

 

Regardless, I disagree quite a bit that this would have been a "miraculous throw."

 

It was underthrown and yet the DB just barely got his hand on it. Another foot longer and the ball's not tipped by the DB.

 

That said, Coleman should have caught the tip.

 

[SoCal Deek]

16 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

 

 

Rashoman!

Gesundheit! 

[Alphadawg7]

1 hour ago, GoBills808 said:

I have no idea what you're talking about

 

The LOS is the 31. When Allen turns down the read to Coleman he's standing at the 33

 

Geezus dude, taker you Haterade glasses off for one second. If you cant see how thats easily a 5-6 yard gain min on completion then I don't think you are capable of having any type of rational discussion or just don't know what you are looking at.  Keon is at the 35 where the ball would have been completed and can turn up field for another yard or 2 easily on the catch.  Its like you have no idea where that pass would be thrown on that route.  

 

Lets move on, you have no interest in logic, facts or reason.  You only have a full blown agenda against Keon.  Everyone and their mom knows this is a mistake by Allen to not take the yards and at the very least set up a 3rd and short instead of 3rd and 10.  The fact you are arguing against it is one of the most absurd things I have seen this year.  There is not point in discussing football with people only interested in a crusade.

 

Edited 27 minutes ago by Alphadawg7

[MasterStrategist]

33 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

I think that's over selling it a bit. There's two throws which I think you are referring to, one along the left sideline where Allen threw it outside when it appeared that it should have been placed inside, and one along the right sideline that was underthrown (although Coleman could have still caught it off the tip). Here they are in order:

 

 

The first one of those is a low percentage play from any QB especially since the defender was practically riding Coleman's back downfield. Would have had to be an absolutely perfect throw 45 air yards downfield. Nice release from Coleman but he stumbles out of it and doesn't have vertical speed so there is no clean separation. You'd like to see better separation to make it an easier throw or maybe he draws DPI when the CB catches up.

 

The second one, I don't think that throw is even on the menu for most QBs. Looks like basic tampa 2. The throw ends up almost like hitting a honey hole shot except 35 air yards downfield which is obviously not typical. Because Coleman is jogging on his route Allen has to rip it in there to beat the buzzing flat defender which means he can't get air underneath it which makes it more challenging to have perfect ball placement. So yes Allen has the arm strength to theoretically hit this throw but that isn't a point in Coleman's favor. And it's not like he did anything special to separate here, he's just running (or, more aptly, jogging) behind the flat defender in tampa 2.

 

If Allen had hit both of these miraculous throws that would have been more akin to Gabe Davis' "breakout performance" against KC than a legit star turn from Coleman IMO. Especially given how poor he looked on almost every other rep throughout the game.

 

These are what I'm seeing too.  Mechanics off on both those throws.

 

Thanks for posting.  By no means are those "miraculous throws".  There are plenty of NFL qbs capable of deep ball accuracy/touch --- Josh isnt showing that ability and to some extent, has struggled throughout his career.

 

Thats the difference with this season vs LY.  Reads, ball placement, mechanics.  Its those 3-4 plays a game that he is missing, that didnt happen LY.

 

[GoBills808]

11 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Geezus dude, taker you Haterade glasses off for one second. If you cant see how thats easily a 5-6 yard gain min on completion then I don't think you are capable of having any type of rational discussion or just don't know what you are looking at.  Keon is at the 35 where the ball would have been completed and can turn up field for another yard or 2 easily on the catch.  Its like you have no idea where that pass would be thrown on that route.  

 

Lets move on, you have no interest in logic, facts or reason.  You only have a full blown agenda against Keon.  Everyone and their mom knows this is a mistake by Allen to not take the yards and at the very least set up a 3rd and short instead of 3rd and 10.  The fact you are arguing against it is one of the most absurd things I have seen this year.  There is not point in discussing football with people only interested in a crusade.

 

i have no agenda against keon, i have an agenda against bad takes

 

this is the exact moment allen turns down the throw to keon. yellow LOS is the 31, keon is standing at the 33. there is just no way this goes for anything other than a 2yard gain, im sorry

 

 

he threw the exact same ball on the exact same route to shakir in this game too, gain of about 1 and shakir got absolutely rocked

[Alphadawg7]

57 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

I think that's over selling it a bit. There's two throws which I think you are referring to, one along the left sideline where Allen threw it outside when it appeared that it should have been placed inside, and one along the right sideline that was underthrown (although Coleman could have still caught it off the tip). Here they are in order:

 

 

The first one of those is a low percentage play from any QB especially since the defender was practically riding Coleman's back downfield. Would have had to be an absolutely perfect throw 45 air yards downfield. Nice release from Coleman but he stumbles out of it and doesn't have vertical speed so there is no clean separation. You'd like to see better separation to make it an easier throw or maybe he draws DPI when the CB catches up.

 

The second one, I don't think that throw is even on the menu for most QBs. Looks like basic tampa 2. The throw ends up almost like hitting a honey hole shot except 35 air yards downfield which is obviously not typical. Because Coleman is jogging on his route Allen has to rip it in there to beat the buzzing flat defender which means he can't get air underneath it which makes it more challenging to have perfect ball placement. So yes Allen has the arm strength to theoretically hit this throw but that isn't a point in Coleman's favor. And it's not like he did anything special to separate here, he's just running (or, more aptly, jogging) behind the flat defender in tampa 2.

 

If Allen had hit both of these miraculous throws that would have been more akin to Gabe Davis' "breakout performance" against KC than a legit star turn from Coleman IMO. Especially given how poor he looked on almost every other rep throughout the game.

 

 

These are standard NFL throws, I don't know why you care calling the "miraculous".  Any quality starter can and should hit these throws every week, and needs to do so consistently.  Allen never has had good touch downfield.  He either cannons it on a rope where he can over shoot or just miss...or when he tries to put touch he under throws it so its defended/intercepted, or when its caught the receiver can't advance the ball.  It is literally his most well known weakness in his game. 

Allens best down field throw is when he has a guy wide open or a clear shot to him, usually on a scramble drill where he can just rip a liner right to him or he can lob the ball over and even though it takes a while to get there the receiver can still make the catch.  He is not a guy who shows touch.

 

This whole season, his back shoulder attempts to Keon have mostly been poor throws, these passes here were poor throws.  The one that should go to the inside, Keon does stumble, but still beats his defender and any ball inside Keon not only has him beat, but even if the ball is not thrown well, as long as its inside Keon has the position to box out and maybe even draw the PI.  Throwing it outside was either a critical mistake, or he tried to go inside and just threw a poor pass.

 

The other one all he has to do is put some air on the ball and get it out in front.  Instead josh shows the lack of touch and awareness and throws a liner instead.  

NOW - That doesn't excuse Keon for the mistakes he ALSO made on these routes.  The one that should have went inside he stumbled, but still managed to win his route.  But he has to get cleaner releases to consistently get open in the NFL, he has to be better with his feet.  On the one Josh threw the liner, Keon also let up some on that route for some reason, he needs to run that route crisp to consistently win on those.  In both cases he still got open, but I still want to see both those routes run better and cleaner from Keon too, so he doesn't just get a pass here even though he got open both times.

Edited 10 minutes ago by Alphadawg7

[HappyDays]

10 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

i have no agenda against keon, i have an agenda against bad takes

 

this is the exact moment allen turns down the throw to keon. yellow LOS is the 31, keon is standing at the 33. there is just no way this goes for anything other than a 2yard gain, im sorry

 

 

he threw the exact same ball on the exact same route to shakir in this game too, gain of about 1 and shakir got absolutely rocked

 

Yeah I don't know why we are calling this and other similar throws "turndowns." Allen is reading the leverage of defenders. There's a LB sitting directly over top with his hips leaning forward which means he is in position to drive on it, not to mention the other 2 sitting defenders you highlighted, so the best case scenario is a 3 yard gain, more likely 2/2.5. For reference as measured by success rate you would want to pick up 6 yards on 2nd and 10. I absolutely hate that this sort of play constitutes the vast majority of our passing offense right now. Defenses are forming a wall of coverage where they know we like to run our little crossers and nobody other than Kincaid has shown an aptitude for getting behind that wall consistently. Maybe Palmer can do it too, we'll see. Right now it's way way too easy for our opponents. They'll give us these looks all day until we force them out of it.

 

Edited 5 minutes ago by HappyDays