Challenge Spot, Spot Gets Moved, But LOSE Challenge ! ??

[ChasBB]

So, if you challenge the spot and the referee changes the spot, don't you effectively win the challenge?  For example, in last night's game, Cincinnati did NOT challenge that it was a first down.  They simply challenged the SPOT.  Since the referee DID advance the ball a foot or so forward of the original spot, shouldn't Cincinnati have retained the timeout that got burned on the "lost" challenge?  The SPOT was advanced, so they WON the challenge, but they just didn't get the first down out of it they likely hoped for.  Cincy is not challenging "it was a first down".  They were challenging "the Spot".  I think they should have kept their timeout.  Anyone else have thoughts on this or even notice?

Edited 5 hours ago by ChasBB
Clarity

[Kirby Jackson]

1 minute ago, ChasBB said:

So, if you challenge the spot and the referee changes the spot, don't you effectively win (the challenge)?  For example, in last night's game, Cincinnati did NOT challenge that it was a first down.  They simply challenged the SPOT.  Since the referee DID advance the ball a foot or so forward of the original spot, but not quite enough for a first down ...
shouldn't Cincinnati have retained the timeout that got burned on the "lost" challenge?  The SPOT was advanced, so they WON the challenge, but just didn't get a first down out of it.  Cincy is not challenging "it was a first down".  They were challenging the "Spot".  I think they should have kept their timeout.  Anyone else have thoughts on this or even notice?

I didn’t see that last night (fell asleep at 1/2) but think I’ve seen it before. I’m with you that it is 100% crazy. If the officials were wrong, and you were right, regardless of if it resulted in a 1st down or TD or whatever, you shouldn’t relinquish a TO. Frustrating 

[Sweats]

I've lost all faith in the fairness of this league

[Simon]

 

What if the ball had been moved backwards a foot? The spot was wrong so do you still "win" the challenge?

 

I think it's implied that the challenge is in regards to whether the runner made the line to gain.

 

[Draconator]

17 minutes ago, ChasBB said:

So, if you challenge the spot and the referee changes the spot, don't you effectively win the challenge?  For example, in last night's game, Cincinnati did NOT challenge that it was a first down.  They simply challenged the SPOT.  Since the referee DID advance the ball a foot or so forward of the original spot, shouldn't Cincinnati have retained the timeout that got burned on the "lost" challenge?  The SPOT was advanced, so they WON the challenge, but they just didn't get the first down out of it they likely hoped for.  Cincy is not challenging "it was a first down".  They were challenging "the Spot".  I think they should have kept their timeout.  Anyone else have thoughts on this or even notice?

It's the NFL. "Nice Foul League". Pretty soon players will be fined if their hold wasn't aggressive enough...

[Low Positive]

I would agree with you. But when a bad thing happens to the Bengals and especially if it makes Zac Taylor look inept, I am in full support it. I love all stupid rules if they make Joe Burrow sad. 

[dave mcbride]

1 minute ago, Simon said:

 

What if the ball had been moved backwards a foot? The spot was wrong so do you still "win" the challenge?

 

I think it's implied that the challenge is in regards to whether the runner made the line to gain.

 

There's a big difference between being 38 inches from a first down and 17 inches. In the latter scenario, a sneak becomes MUCH easier. Teams should never lose a challenge and TO when the refs agree that they spotted it short, irrespective of whether the re-spot results in a first down or not. It's bonkers. 

[Einstein]

7 minutes ago, Low Positive said:

I would agree with you. But when a bad thing happens to the Bengals and especially if it makes Zac Taylor look inept, I am in full support it. I love all stupid rules if they make Joe Burrow sad. 

 

I can’t figure out what to make of Zac Taylor

[Low Positive]

AFAIK, you cannot challenge a spot. It’s a judgement call. Like a coach can’t challenge a spot if he thinks it should be 3rd and 1 instead of 3rd and 3. The Challenge is if the runner made the line to gain. So, even if they re-spot the ball, the challenge still fails because it was a challenge of “ runner failed to reach the line to gain,” not a challenge of just the spot. 

1 minute ago, Einstein said:

 

I can’t figure out what to make of Zac Taylor

People here in Cincinnati think he’s an incompetent idiot and bad play designer being kept in a job by the otherworldly talents of Chase, Higgins, and Burrow. They salivate about getting Burrow a real GM like Roseman and a play designer like McDaniel/McVey. And he has a dumb smirk that drives people crazy when things go badly. Sound familiar?

[dave mcbride]

4 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

I can’t figure out what to make of Zac Taylor

The Bengals winning last night was good for the Bills. Yeah, Flacco looked mostly great, but I guarantee you that he will turn in some terrible performances going forward that'll cost Cincy some games. 

[BuffaloBillies]

In the ref's defense (which, trust me - not a fan), he did state, "Cincinnati is challenging the call that it was not a first down."

After review, the Bengals lost that specific challenge (of a first down), however they did acknowledge that the spot should have been moved up a little, and they gave them that nudge up. I think they got it right (which is the most important thing).

 

Maybe they have to challenge "a first down" vs just generally saying the spot isn't right? Not sure.

[Big Turk]

26 minutes ago, Simon said:

 

What if the ball had been moved backwards a foot? The spot was wrong so do you still "win" the challenge?

 

I think it's implied that the challenge is in regards to whether the runner made the line to gain.

 

 

I'm thinking maybe it was in how he worded what he was challenging?

 

Maybe his challenge was that the ball was spotted short of the first down, which means even tho they advanced the ball a little, it still remained short of the first down, meaning he was still wrong.

[BillsfaninChicago]

Let’s ask the commissioner…

[CircleTheWagons99]

Just like when the Refs make a mistake with less then 2 minutes, they take 10 seconds off the clock. 

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

You can't just challenge the spot, you challenge that the runner missed the line to gain.  Regardless of where the ball gets placed after that, you lost the challenge if it wasn't a first down. It would be the same if you challenged that the runner got a touchdown, you move the ball where it probably should have been, but if its not a TD thats a lost challenge. 

11 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

I'm thinking maybe it was in how he worded what he was challenging?

 

Maybe his challenge was that the ball was spotted short of the first down, which means even tho they advanced the ball a little, it still remained short of the first down, meaning he was still wrong.

 

Correct - you cannot challenge spots unless you are saying he got a TD or a first down.  

[Simon]

6 minutes ago, Bleeding Bills Blue said:

You can't just challenge the spot, you challenge that the runner missed the line to gain.  Regardless of where the ball gets placed after that, you lost the challenge if it wasn't a first down. It would be the same if you challenged that the runner got a touchdown, you move the ball where it probably should have been, but if its not a TD thats a lost challenge. 

 

Correct - you cannot challenge spots unless you are saying he got a TD or a first down.  

 

There's probably also a proviso re: whether a guy stepped OB that changes the spot, but I don't know how that works in relation to the line to gain, if at all.

[Goin Breakdown]

8 minutes ago, CircleTheWagons99 said:

Just like when the Refs make a mistake with less then 2 minutes, they take 10 seconds off the clock. 

Just another way to influence a game

[pennstate10]

54 minutes ago, Simon said:

 

What if the ball had been moved backwards a foot? The spot was wrong so do you still "win" the challenge?

 

I think it's implied that the challenge is in regards to whether the runner made the line to gain.

 

If it’s on fourth down I might agree with you. 
But if it was a 3d down play, a foot less on 4th down is a big deal. 

[Einstein]

50 minutes ago, Low Positive said:

 

People here in Cincinnati think he’s an incompetent idiot and bad play designer being kept in a job by the otherworldly talents of Chase, Higgins, and Burrow. They salivate about getting Burrow a real GM like Roseman and a play designer like McDaniel/McVey. And he has a dumb smirk that drives people crazy when things go badly. Sound familiar?

 

Lol!

[Low Positive]

Let’s put this topic to bed with the only authoritative source on the matter. Here it is straight from the NFL rulebook

 

Article 7. Plays Governed By The Line To Gain

 

The dead-ball spot is reviewable to determine whether it was short of, at, or beyond the line to gain.

 

Notes:

1) For purposes of a replay review, forward progress is determined when a player with control of the ball is controlled by an opponent and driven backwards.

 

2) A challenge is successful only if the ruling of whether a new series was awarded is changed, regardless of whether the ball was moved closer to the line to gain.

 

3) Following review, the ball will be placed at the correct dead-ball spot, but the challenge will be successful only if the line to gain ruling is changed.

 

https://operations.nfl.com/the-rules/nfl-rulebook/#article-7-plays-governed-by-the-line-to-gain

Edited 3 hours ago by Low Positive
Forgot to cite.