Allen vs Mahomes, is this a controversial take?

[Billl]

37 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Their lowest scoring games correlates to when they play better defenses. Shocking. They give up more points when they face playoff Josh Allen. Again, shocking.

 

Sorry man but this is classic confirmation bias. You're trying to stretch the numbers to fit what you already believe to be true. Nothing about their playoff history indicates that if the Bills held them to 20 points, Allen and the Bills offense would randomly struggle to get past 17. That doesn't make any kind of sense at all. There is no sentient will of football that shapes KC/BUF games to be more exciting. If our defense simply held up its end and the offense did what it always does against them we would beat you guys by multiple scores.

Yeah, that Jaguars defense was great a couple of years ago, much better than the Eagles.  Obviously that must be why they scored 27 against Jacksonville but 38 against Philadelphia.  

 

But to your point, what is “playoff Josh Allen”?  Postseason Josh Allen is the exact same as regular season Josh Allen.  Players and teams simply don’t elevate their play based on situation.  I know that because you’ve told me so repeatedly in this very conversation.  

 

The confirmation bias is you starting from the conclusion that the Chiefs score more against the Bills in the postseason not because the Chiefs do something to influence that outcome, but because the Bills just play poorly and then working your way backwards from there.

[HappyDays]

8 minutes ago, Billl said:

Players and teams simply don’t elevate their play based on situation.  I know that because you’ve told me so repeatedly in this very conversation.  

 

I've said no such thing.

 

8 minutes ago, Billl said:

you starting from the conclusion that the Chiefs score more against the Bills in the postseason not because the Chiefs do something to influence that outcome

 

That is not my conclusion.

 

We can go ahead and stop the conversation here.

 

Edited August 27 by HappyDays

[DrBob806]

JA is among today's top 3 QBs while Mahomes is among the top 5 all time greats, and it's ok to say it out loud. 

[Buffalo716]

2 minutes ago, DrBob806 said:

JA is among today's top 3 QBs while Mahomes is among the top 5 all time greats, and it's ok to say it out loud. 

Patrick mahomes isn't going to finish as a top five quarterback lol 

 

He isnt  Brady he is not Peyton Manning.. he's not Josh Allen or Dan Marino 

 

Most quarterbacks have growing pains and get better with more reps.. he literally came in with a stacked offense and started on fire.. and his stats have been going down ever since 

 

His team averaged 21 points per game last year.. no best quarterback ever is averaging that in their prime 

 

I'm willing to bet he's never winning another super bowl

Edited August 27 by Buffalo716

[Success]

5 minutes ago, DrBob806 said:

JA is among today's top 3 QBs while Mahomes is among the top 5 all time greats, and it's ok to say it out loud. 

 

They're pretty even in terms of how they play. Are you basing that conclusion just on rings?

 

[PrimeTime101]

I would argue that If JA were a Chief.. he would have 1 more SB ring then Mahomes. 

 

That is the only way we can compare this.  IF you think JA would have 1 or 2 less SB wins if he played for KC then obviously you would think Mahomes is better.

 

This is how I look at it and why I think JA is better.. 

 

But go ahead and go by SB wins. 

 

11 quarterbacks in the hall.. never won a SB..

[DrBob806]

21 minutes ago, Success said:

 

They're pretty even in terms of how they play. Are you basing that conclusion just on rings?

 

No. The rings certainly help though.

 

He's simply clutch. 

26 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

Patrick mahomes isn't going to finish as a top five quarterback lol 

 

He isnt  Brady he is not Peyton Manning.. he's not Josh Allen or Dan Marino.

 

I'm willing to bet he's never winning another super bowl

He may not, but his trajectory is there. 

 

Brady, Montana, Staubach, & Otto Graham are the true GOATS. Marino? Nope- all hype because he got rid of the ball so damn fast. 

 

How many AFC Title games in a row for Mahomes? I'm sure he'll get there again, and win a SB again, but I doubt it's this season. KC due for a fall this year.

 

 

[Captain Hindsight]

4 hours ago, Mikie2times said:

People are sleeping on him big time again, which you have seen play out before with Brady. His last two years have been fairly meh, but would I be suprised if he drops a 40 TD year? Not in the least. The Chiefs aren't going away as much as people like to be trendy and predict it. 

I hope they get swept by the Raiders

[RoscoeParrish]

2 hours ago, Success said:

It bugs me when people say it's a slam dunk that Mahomes is a better QB than Allen because "rings."

 

No matter how you feel about McDermott & this coaching staff - there is a pretty significant disparity between Reid & Spags, and McDermott & McDermott.  If you go back through SB champions & participants, it's usually the better coaches that make it more consistently.  I like McDermott, but it's just a fact that he's not at the level of what KC has.

 

Personally, I think Allen is a little better than Mahomes, but it's pretty razor thin no matter which side you're on. I wouldn't do a straight up trade between those guys.

 

@C.Biscuit97 raised the point that if Allen was a 3 time SB MVP and 2 time MVP, and Patrick was just a 1 time MVP who couldn’t beat him in the playoffs, Bills fans would outright reject a “razor thin” margin between the two players.

 

we’d probably call Mahomes a loser and nowhere close.

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

4 hours ago, 90sBills said:

The irony of this is our fans laugh at Miami and Baltimore for doing the exact same things after their teams lose to the Bills. It’s really comical if you’re able to detach and view from above the fray. 

Another great irony I’ve noticed is generally Chiefs fans are the opposing fans who give Allen the most respect. I think because they know just how hard it is to beat Josh Allen. Kind of how I feel about the Ravens. People give Lamar crap, but that was the hardest fought most physical game the Bills have had in quite some time. And it was Lamar’s team who ultimately let him down (sound familiar?) 

[Success]

16 minutes ago, RoscoeParrish said:

@C.Biscuit97 raised the point that if Allen was a 3 time SB MVP and 2 time MVP, and Patrick was just a 1 time MVP who couldn’t beat him in the playoffs, Bills fans would outright reject a “razor thin” margin between the two players.

 

we’d probably call Mahomes a loser and nowhere close.

 

Not a bad point, and true.  But it kind of emphasizes how it's a little more of a homer take.

 

[JakeFrommStateFarm]

McDermott has a Big Game problem 

[SaulGoodman]

6 hours ago, HomeskillitMoorman said:

 

I don't really even think it's Reid being so masterful...I think it's just that he actually adds something positive to his side of the ball

 

Joe Brady's one of the best in the biz. Daboll was very good too. 

 

If someone has the opinion that Allen is the better QB, that's fine, and you can make a decent argument for it...but the idea that Mahomes has had everything a QB could ask for just isn't accurate. He's basically never been supported by a good running game, tackle play has been mediocre/poor for several years, his top receivers have been either weak or injured in recent years, the defense has been mediocre or bad more often than not in his career, and he had the worst LT situation in the league last year. 

[JimBob2232]

Allen is the better QB.  Mahomes has the better team, coach and therefore rings.  It’s pretty much that simple.  

[Buffalo716]

44 minutes ago, JakeFrommStateFarm said:

McDermott has a Big Game problem 

Andy Reid had the same exact label and now he's a three-time super bowl winning coach considered the best right now lol

 

19 minutes ago, SaulGoodman said:

 

Joe Brady's one of the best in the biz. Daboll was very good too. 

 

If someone has the opinion that Allen is the better QB, that's fine, and you can make a decent argument for it...but the idea that Mahomes has had everything a QB could ask for just isn't accurate. He's basically never been supported by a good running game, tackle play has been mediocre/poor for several years, his top receivers have been either weak or injured in recent years, the defense has been mediocre or bad more often than not in his career, and he had the worst LT situation in the league last year. 

Mahomes has for 4 out of the last 5 years had a defense that finished top 10 in points against lol

 

Five out of 7 years as a top 10 scoring defense that's kind of the opposite of mediocre or bad lol

 

And his defenses have been healthy unlike the bills in the postseason 

 

[GoBills808]

2 hours ago, RoscoeParrish said:

@C.Biscuit97 raised the point that if Allen was a 3 time SB MVP and 2 time MVP, and Patrick was just a 1 time MVP who couldn’t beat him in the playoffs, Bills fans would outright reject a “razor thin” margin between the two players.

 

we’d probably call Mahomes a loser and nowhere close.

maybe you would

 

but most people w brains would see a guy dragging his team along while steadily compiling the most impressive statistical playoff profile in league history and realize calling that qb a loser is just a bad take

[Buffalo Junction]

6 hours ago, Billl said:

Since Allen has been in the league, the Bills have averaged allowing 19 PPG in the 9 postseason games when they aren’t playing the Chiefs.  They have averaged allowing 33 PPG in the 4 games when they are.  Is it just a giant coincidence that the Bills only forget how to play defense against the Chiefs, or could it possibly be that Mahomes and company are just on another level when the season is on the line?

Some weight should definitely be placed on McD being one of Reid's protégés. It seems like Reid just knows his system as well as McD does, and it’s probably good that McD brought some new coaching blood in on that side of the ball. On top of that this team doesn’t really have any guys on defense who can elevate and play above the scheme which makes life easier for opposing OCs. 

[C.Biscuit97]

48 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

Andy Reid had the same exact label and now he's a three-time super bowl winning coach considered the best right now lol

 

Mahomes has for 4 out of the last 5 years had a defense that finished top 10 in points against lol

 

Five out of 7 years as a top 10 scoring defense that's kind of the opposite of mediocre or bad lol

 

And his defenses have been healthy unlike the bills in the postseason 

 

Bills have had 5 top defenses with Allen 5 times in his career. The Bills have a universally regarded top 5 o line. They have a top 5 rb. Allen had the same OC for the first 4 years of his career, which rarely happens.

 

allen is the best bills qb ever at the absolute worst a top 3 qb qb right now. But this act where he has been surrounded by a bunch of crap is pretty misleading. Reid was a choker before Mahomes (who had 5,000 yards and 50 tds passing in a season in college and Feid traded up to get). Maybe, and this is crazy, Mahomes is just a great qb on his own. They traded a top 3 wr and won 2 more SBs. 
 

Were fans and Allen is one of the greatest things that has ever happened to this franchise. But we love putting down the rest of the team, other qbs to raise Allen up (the general “you”). Allen is good enough where this doesn’t need to be down. But almost any other Bills fan would say the qb who has won 3 SBs and is 4-0 (as stupid as qb won- loss record) against the other one in the playoffs is probably better. 

 

the Beautiful part is the Bills and Allen can change that discussion this year. 

[Buffalo716]

1 minute ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Bills have had 5 top defenses with Allen 5 times in his career. The Bills have a universally regarded top 5 o line. They have a top 5 rb. Allen had the same OC for the first 4 years of his career, which rarely happens.

 

allen is the best bills qb ever at the absolute worst a top 3 qb qb right now. But this act where he has been surrounded by a bunch of crap is pretty misleading. Reid was a choker before Mahomes (who had 5,000 yards and 50 tds passing in a season in college and Feid traded up to get). Maybe, and this is crazy, Mahomes is just a great qb on his own. They traded a top 3 wr and won 2 more SBs. 
 

Were fans and Allen is one of the greatest things that has ever happened to this franchise. But we love putting down the rest of the team, other qbs to raise Allen up (the general “you”). Allen is good enough where this doesn’t need to be down. But almost any other Bills fan would say the qb who has won 3 SBs and is 4-0 (as stupid as qb won- loss record) against the other one in the playoffs is probably better. 

 

the Beautiful part is the Bills and Allen can change that discussion this year. 

I've never said we don't have good football players 

 

In fact I'm usually one of the only people here defending McDermott and saying we have enough talent to win a super bowl 

 

We are never healthy in January and February... We had 11 players on the injury report going into our playoff game last year you're not going into Arrowhead and winning with 11 players on the injury report 

 

The talent margin is way too small... That's it 

 

If the Chiefs playoffs without their starting safety and number one corner we're going to beat them by a lot more than three in the playoffs

[C.Biscuit97]

1 hour ago, JakeFrommStateFarm said:

McDermott has a Big Game problem 

I believe the stat is McDermott has won more regular season and playoff games than Reid at the same point of their careers. 
 

obviously Reid is the better coach. But McDermott is at worst a top 10 coach. 
 

the bottomline is more qbs are ruined that developed. I think it’s prettt foolish to think if Allen or Mahomes went to the Jets, they are the same player. Both guys are insanely good qbs who went to great spots that helped them maximize some talent that needed to be molded. And as some one who likes watching great qbs play, I’m happy we get to see this rivalry. Now let’s win one when it matters.