Does there need to be a rethinking of the basic D?

[YattaOkasan]

4 minutes ago, <bills4life> said:

It is preseason though. Maybe they don’t want to show their hand and come the season unleash an attack style defense with more man coverage when needed. I would love to see more scheme versatility. 

I dont care about preseason but will also be disappointed if nothing is different in the regular season.  

[Dunkirk Donski]

1 hour ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

Oh I 100% agree. Beane is trying and hopefully Bosa stays healthy.  

Go ahead Take the bait. I will start. Over under - Did he fall down more times in the championship game than he had total sacks last year? He is terribly inconsistent.  He is not a bad player but he is not great. Thus average. 

"He is not a bad player but he is not great. Thus average"

I believe your words were:  Struggles to be an average starter.  Don't move those goal posts son.  I'm not a huge fan but most would agree he's "above average" and the stats will easily back that up Captain Overreaction. 

[billsfan89]

1 minute ago, JP51 said:

Here is the other thing... If you ever had a chance to play an aggressive defense, its when you have an offense that scores at will... what they are doing isnt working... if they beat you they beat you... let them do it in 2 minutes not 7.... cause they are beating you anyways...  we literally forced the least punt on defense in the entire league tied with Carolina... that is atrocious. 

 

I'm not gonna say the Bills 2024 defense was very good. I think they were a slightly above average defense. Capable of shutting down bad offenses and capable of handling average to better than average offenses but susceptible to get light up by top 10 offenses as they did have happen to them several times.

 

But I think the least amount of punts forced is damming but I also think that is inflated by the Bills being 3rd in turnovers forced and the Bills being comfortable seeding field goals as they had a strong red-zone defense (29% TD percentage 2nd best in the league in terms of redzone defense). I think the Bills defense forcing a lot of turnovers and their philosophy to force their opponents to kick field goals to keep up with the offense of the Bills drove that stat.

 

BUT what also drove that stat was the horrendous third down percentage. The Bills easily could have force 1 more punt a game by getting teams off on a long third down. So I do think that the third down defense is going to be a big factor for how much this team can improve. 

[Shortchaz]

Bit of a nuanced take:

My biggest issue with the base defense is I don’t feel  like it’s the type of defense that has success at the highest level/in the playoffs. Making things more complicated is that it is often successful in other situations. 

The Bills need to be doing the things that the best defenses do, especially in the playoffs, throughout the regular season. Play more man, play more 4-3, stunt more, be more aggressive in general and roll the dice. Force the offense to do something rather than read and react. 
 

by doing these things more often in the regular season, they will be more prepared to do them when they need them. In a sense you trade some of your regular season capital(?) for post season success. 
 

 

[JP51]

6 minutes ago, billsfan89 said:

 

I'm not gonna say the Bills 2024 defense was very good. I think they were a slightly above average defense. Capable of shutting down bad offenses and capable of handling average to better than average offenses but susceptible to get light up by top 10 offenses as they did have happen to them several times.

 

But I think the least amount of punts forced is damming but I also think that is inflated by the Bills being 3rd in turnovers forced and the Bills being comfortable seeding field goals as they had a strong red-zone defense (29% TD percentage 2nd best in the league in terms of redzone defense). I think the Bills defense forcing a lot of turnovers and their philosophy to force their opponents to kick field goals to keep up with the offense of the Bills drove that stat.

 

BUT what also drove that stat was the horrendous third down percentage. The Bills easily could have force 1 more punt a game by getting teams off on a long third down. So I do think that the third down defense is going to be a big factor for how much this team can improve. 

I think this is right... our ability to get off the field in 3rd and long was not good enough...  and I agree turnovers really did save us..  without those I am not sure we get the 2nd seed... bottom line all of us (or most of us minus the trolls) want a superbowl win.. we have lived our entire lives without one.. its easy to pick out flaws, much harder to correct... but the bottom line to me is this defense as it stands is soul sucking to watch, we can stat away, but we all know we dont get off the field, nor are we a feared defense ... can you imagine what that defense would rank if we had JP Losman, or Fitz, or Edwards, or Peterman or Manuel at the helm... with lots of quick 3 and outs... we shant forget the fact they have the benefit of Josh grinding 5,6,7 minutes off the clock in sustained drives while they are resting.. can you imagine if they were the Colts defense, or the Raiders, or the Jets...  the "stats" would be atrocious... we need to be better... 

[NewEra]

37 minutes ago, Bleeding Bills Blue said:

 

Injuries happen - but the player you see today isn't the player you necessarily see tomorrow

Bishop - Mistakes happen, in that situation it was a misstep on a switch release that he bungled.  Should NOT have been a TD either wya.

Tre - he's always been a good zone defender and tackler.  You also have hairston available down the line if he isn't up to snuff.

Screens - This is often cleaned up in the film room

All remain potential season ruiners imo

[<bills4life>]

3 minutes ago, blacklabel said:

 

Whoa whoa whoa there, pardner! Just who in the blue heck do youse think youse are waltzing into town like this with your....your based takes?! You think you can just come in here and *gasp* make sense?!

 

I've only one question for you, fella. How dare youse? I mean, how diggity dog dare youse, fella?

 

We'll thank you kindly to get back on your horse and keep it moving onto the next town, alright? 

 

Now if you'll excuse me, I need to prepare for my fourth panic attack of the day. 

When damar Hamlin is a starting safety and Cole bishop looks like a train wreck it absolutely should give you pause for concern. Not to mention t. Rapp hits like a freight train and injures your own players throughout the season where depth is limited while at the same time running a 4.8 fourty yd dash. Tre white being your 2nd starting corner after Achilles and acl tear.  That secondary could be a real problem. Maybe they play great, and I get it’s only preseason. However I don’t think it’s outlandish to be mildly concerned.  Especially after we have seen this same story the past 7 years and we all know how it ends. Even with a pyor and Hyde back there in their prime. 

[JP51]

6 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

Not panicking at all.  Just an observation that teams might be seeing an opening for the shorter, quicker routes against our D.

If I am honest, they are seeing an opening to not even game plan and run whatever they want knowing success is inevitable... kidding aside, there was really no silver lining... they ran, screened, quick hitches, rolled out, got the ball to recievers in space, downfield throws, QB scrambles, bully ball in the red zone... literally the Bears... just did whatever they wanted...  nothing that we have done all pre season would make a team shy away from any portion of their playbook... 

5 hours ago, zow2 said:

I need to be talked off the ledge a bit.  I just can't think of a legit SB team with a deep secondary as weak as ours.  We all know Josh can get us to the brink with offense..  but when you play the other elite AFC team(s) at the end of January, the D comes up small.   Teams can throw on us and convert 3rd downs at a good clip.

Not trying to push you off... but also I dont see a SB team with a pass rush as bad as our and run stopping as bad as ours and failure rate on 3rd and long as bad as ours...   we were last in the league at forcing punts last year...  

[TheFunPolice]

I get "it's preseason" but I also think some on here underestimate how competitive these guys are. They fight at training camp practices because tempers run hot. They want to crush each other at Fortnite, table tennis, basketball, golf, checkers... 

 

These high profile athletes (backups or not) are simply not wired to suit up, go onto the football field in front of thousands of people plus those watching on TV and allow themselves to be embarrassed, pushed around, and pancaked "because it's just preseason" and "we're just backups anyway."

 

A lot of these guys are trying to make the team, trying to put good things on film in case they are cut loose in a couple weeks. This is their career. 

 

If players don't screw around and dog it because "it's just practice" then why would they do so in a game?

 

So I think there are concerns, such as getting little pressure from the DL. This is a continuing theme. So is the coverage. With Allen we can score enough points and put enough pressure on the other team that we win games. But what we saw is more of the same. 

 

None of this means the team won't look much different in the regular season, obviously. But you'd like to see some signs of life from the DL especially. Or WRs not dropping passes. Or DBs not getting abused out there. 

 

 

 

 

[<bills4life>]

11 minutes ago, TheFunPolice said:

I get "it's preseason" but I also think some on here underestimate how competitive these guys are. They fight at training camp practices because tempers run hot. They want to crush each other at Fortnite, table tennis, basketball, golf, checkers... 

 

These high profile athletes (backups or not) are simply not wired to suit up, go onto the football field in front of thousands of people plus those watching on TV and allow themselves to be embarrassed, pushed around, and pancaked "because it's just preseason" and "we're just backups anyway."

 

A lot of these guys are trying to make the team, trying to put good things on film in case they are cut loose in a couple weeks. This is their career. 

 

If players don't screw around and dog it because "it's just practice" then why would they do so in a game?

 

So I think there are concerns, such as getting little pressure from the DL. This is a continuing theme. So is the coverage. With Allen we can score enough points and put enough pressure on the other team that we win games. But what we saw is more of the same. 

 

None of this means the team won't look much different in the regular season, obviously. But you'd like to see some signs of life from the DL especially. Or WRs not dropping passes. Or DBs not getting abused out there. 

And that basically is the crux of the matter.  Well said. Not panic or hysteria. Just hoping for little signs of improvement in those areas outlined above. 

 

 

[billsfan89]

14 minutes ago, JP51 said:

I think this is right... our ability to get off the field in 3rd and long was not good enough...  and I agree turnovers really did save us..  without those I am not sure we get the 2nd seed... bottom line all of us (or most of us minus the trolls) want a superbowl win.. we have lived our entire lives without one.. its easy to pick out flaws, much harder to correct... but the bottom line to me is this defense as it stands is soul sucking to watch, we can stat away, but we all know we dont get off the field, nor are we a feared defense ... can you imagine what that defense would rank if we had JP Losman, or Fitz, or Edwards, or Peterman or Manuel at the helm... with lots of quick 3 and outs... we shant forget the fact they have the benefit of Josh grinding 5,6,7 minutes off the clock in sustained drives while they are resting.. can you imagine if they were the Colts defense, or the Raiders, or the Jets...  the "stats" would be atrocious... we need to be better... 

 

Actually the Bills time of possession in 2024 was middle of the pack. Average TOP was 29 minutes 30 seconds last season. The Bills defense was elite in two respects one as mentioned was turnovers the team was 3rd in forced defensive turnovers. The second was red-zone defense the team had the 2nd highest red-zone defense (by TD allowed %). So yeah team drove on the Bills a lot but the defense produced turnovers or forced them into field goals. Even if the Bills get some regression in turnovers if they can maintain a high end red-zone defense and just get off on more third and longs they should be improved. 

20 minutes ago, TheFunPolice said:

I get "it's preseason" but I also think some on here underestimate how competitive these guys are. They fight at training camp practices because tempers run hot. They want to crush each other at Fortnite, table tennis, basketball, golf, checkers... 

 

These high profile athletes (backups or not) are simply not wired to suit up, go onto the football field in front of thousands of people plus those watching on TV and allow themselves to be embarrassed, pushed around, and pancaked "because it's just preseason" and "we're just backups anyway."

 

A lot of these guys are trying to make the team, trying to put good things on film in case they are cut loose in a couple weeks. This is their career. 

 

If players don't screw around and dog it because "it's just practice" then why would they do so in a game?

 

So I think there are concerns, such as getting little pressure from the DL. This is a continuing theme. So is the coverage. With Allen we can score enough points and put enough pressure on the other team that we win games. But what we saw is more of the same. 

 

None of this means the team won't look much different in the regular season, obviously. But you'd like to see some signs of life from the DL especially. Or WRs not dropping passes. Or DBs not getting abused out there. 

 

 

 

 

 

But you don't always know what teams are working on in pre-season. Also it is human nature to underperform if your coaching staff isn't playing starters to think the game is a throwaway. I still take it with a grain of salt and I am not putting much stock into it. In fact it might be good to get smacked as it shakes things up.

[Brianmoorman4jesus]

There needs to be an overhaul of the entire defensive coaching scheme. It’s THE only problem we have. It’s what’s cost us a Super Bowl. Maybe even more than one. Our problem is THE guy coaching the defense. It’s been since 2018. 2017 was good. I’ll give him that year. The scheme was figured out. It’s been completely shredded by anyone competent. It’s the thing that’s keeping us from where we want to go. I don’t care if McDermott stays on as the HC. I just want him to have nothing to do with the Defense. Zero. Nothing to do with it. A person from the outside needs to take it over and we will win the Super Bowl. If Wade Phillips is our DC we have a ring already 

Edited August 18 by Brianmoorman4jesus

[JerseyBills]

9 hours ago, BananaB said:

What we seen last night is a lot of what we see in the playoffs against Chiefs. Difference is Allen is moving the ball chewing up time and putting points on the board. D system is soft.

yup, this defense is already in post season form lol 

[TheFunPolice]

2 minutes ago, billsfan89 said:

 

Actually the Bills time of possession in 2024 was middle of the pack. Average TOP was 29 minutes 30 seconds last season. The Bills defense was elite in two respects one as mentioned was turnovers the team was 3rd in forced defensive turnovers. The second was red-zone defense the team had the 2nd highest red-zone defense (by TD allowed %). So yeah team drove on the Bills a lot but the defense produced turnovers or forced them into field goals. Even if the Bills get some regression in turnovers if they can maintain a high end red-zone defense and just get off on more third and longs they should be improved. 

 

But you don't always know what teams are working on in pre-season. Also it is human nature to underperform if your coaching staff isn't playing starters to think the game is a throwaway. I still take it with a grain of salt and I am not putting much stock into it. In fact it might be good to get smacked as it shakes things up.

 

I get that they aren't scheming up exotic gameplans, but guys are just getting beat out there, and that's the main issue. 

 

We don't really care, and Bosa (big yawn on the sidelines which we can all relate to) doesn't care but the guys on the field are getting to live the dream and are trying to make every rep count to build their career as NFL players. 

 

You drop a ball as a WR it might be the only opportunity you get that game for a number of reasons totally unrelated to dropping the ball. Maybe you get subbed out. Maybe you were only going to get a few drives and the ball only came your way once. And you dropped it. You don't think that matters to that player?

 

Just listen to McDermott after the game. He was disappointed and expected more from the guys out there, even hinting that they might have to see who is out there to sign. 

[Ethan in Cleveland]

1 hour ago, Dunkirk Donski said:

"He is not a bad player but he is not great. Thus average"

I believe your words were:  Struggles to be an average starter.  Don't move those goal posts son.  I'm not a huge fan but most would agree he's "above average" and the stats will easily back that up Captain Overreaction. 

Really? What stats? 27th in sacks(8) last year. 25 total in 4 years.  Ok I should have said struggles to be a consistent average starter.  He flashes at times and then disappears for large portions of the season.  

Doesn't mean he can't get better. Having a better DE on the other side will help. I 100% agreed with picking up his option and the contract extension he got was fair for both sides. 

All love man!

 

[billsfan89]

8 minutes ago, TheFunPolice said:

 

I get that they aren't scheming up exotic gameplans, but guys are just getting beat out there, and that's the main issue. 

 

We don't really care, and Bosa (big yawn on the sidelines which we can all relate to) doesn't care but the guys on the field are getting to live the dream and are trying to make every rep count to build their career as NFL players. 

 

You drop a ball as a WR it might be the only opportunity you get that game for a number of reasons totally unrelated to dropping the ball. Maybe you get subbed out. Maybe you were only going to get a few drives and the ball only came your way once. And you dropped it. You don't think that matters to that player?

 

Just listen to McDermott after the game. He was disappointed and expected more from the guys out there, even hinting that they might have to see who is out there to sign. 

 

I just don't put too much stock into it. A team came out flat when 90% of their starters weren't playing in a pre-season game. It happens, it isn't the end of the world. Of course the coach is going to be upset because he wants to have sharp executions always. But in the end this isn't something to be worried about to any significant degree. 

[HardyBoy]

7 hours ago, SoonerBillsFan said:

What new system?  Nothing out of camp has suggested anything new. 

 

Oh that's right,  McDermott has his own alternate universe pocket where he take the defense at night and trains the new defense.

 

Seriously? They brought in a few new coaches who are super familiar with press man and blitzing...plus some of the free agent signings and drafting Harriston...a bunch of talk all off season has been around how the bills seem to be shifting their defensive philosophy.

 

They aren't going to install new stuff in front of a bunch of fans and such

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

5 hours ago, finn said:

Agree. And the only real difference this year is that Bosa

I guess using picks #30, 41, 72, 109, 177, 179 entirely on defensive players is not going to make any difference ? 

[Don Otreply]

9 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

I am not the sort to panic over a couple preseason games but I have noticed that, in both games so far, the quick pass has been pretty successful.  It nullified the rush for the most part, and sitting in zone allowed WRs to get open in a regular basis.  So I’m wondering if this might force a switch from a zone dominant scheme more to a man concept.  Many here are much better scholars of strategy than me so please weigh in.

The Bills Soft zone has been the Achilles heel of the team, and has been figured out by the best teams, the basic “D” has needed updating / changes for a couple of seasons now. It is a very competitive league, one can not just run back the same coverages year after year, it gets figured out / countered, is what it is. 
 

GO BILLS!!!

[KOKBILLS]

1 hour ago, finn said:

It seems smart because teams do stall out with penalties, dropped balls, and other miscues, and you can beat bad teams especially this way and rack up the wins. But McDermott seems to assume, against all evidence, that the same approach will work in the playoffs against quality teams whose coaches take their teams to another level. Again, what's different? Maybe he'll surprise us, but I think it's far more likely that he's found some way to rationalize the latest defensive collapse against KC. 

 

The narrative is already taking shape, but it will be written in stone after this year: Pegula and Beane had the best QB the franchise has or ever will see, but they blew his prime by sticking with a mediocre, stubborn coach who was just good enough to lose in the end. The only possible silver lining is after yet another post-season collapse, even they will realize McDermott has to go. 

 

I'm hopeful because, well, on any given day. But it's not easy when I see McClappy on the sideline. 

 

I totally agree... And in the past couple years more average QB's and Offenses have moved the ball with increasing consistency... The more teams learn to be patient and take what McD is more than willing to give, the more success they will have. And the Bills will find themselves in far too many shootouts if they can't match their turnover production from 2024.