McDermott not in Top 10 of NFL coaches per PFF.

[GunnerBill]

3 hours ago, uticaclub said:

Two time coach of the year Stefanski?

 

Yea. If he is a top 10 NFL coach I am Chinese.

2 hours ago, Mat68 said:

McDermott is a supremely under rated coach.  I would swap him for Kyle Shannahan.  Him paired with Allen is guaranteed a Superbowl.  Outside of that I stick with Sean.  How Stefanski is considered a better coach boggles my mind.  

 

 

And guaranteed to be up in the Superbowl in the 4th Quarter and then for Kyle to have a meltdown and blow it. Again.

1 hour ago, uticaclub said:

Consider the differences between the ownership of the Browns and the Bills. The decision to sign Deshaun Watson killed the Browns, yet Stefanski still managed to lead the team to the playoffs with Joe Flacco as quarterback. This achievement gave Stefanski an edge over McDermott. Unless the Bills go undefeated, McDermott is unlikely to win Coach of the Year. Therefore, he needs to reach the Super Bowl to gain the recognition he deserves.

 

Stefanski was the one who hated Baker and wanted him out. That was HIS call. He is not as good a coach as Sean. Not even close.

1 hour ago, Buffalo Boy said:

Unfortunately, we can, we most likely will and most on here will make every excuse possible why it’s cool that it’s happening.

 

Nobody is saying it is "cool". There is a big difference between "cool" and "must be the Head Coach's fault".

[folz]

This first part is in response to some posters here, not the PFF ranking:

 

Coaches with the Most Wins in NFL History (and their main QBs):

1. Don Shula - QBs: Johnny Unitas (HOF), Bob Griese (HOF), Dan Marino (HOF)

2. George Halas - QBs: George Blanda (HOF), Sid Luckman (HOF), Bobby Layne (HOF)

3. Bill Belichick - QB: Tom Brady (f-HOF)

4. Andy Reid -  QBs: Patrick Mahomes (f-HOF), Donovan McNabb

5. Tom Landry -  QBs: Don Meredith, Roger Staubach (HOF), Danny White

6. Curly Lambeau -   QBs: Curly Lambeau (HOF) and Arnie Herber (two guys who pioneered the passing game in the NFL)

7. Paul Brown - QBs: Otto Graham (HOF), Ken Anderson

8. Marty Schottenheimer - QBs: Bernie Kosar, Joe Montana (HOF), Steve DeBerg, Drew Brees (f-HOF), Phillip Rivers

9. Chuck Knol - QB: Terry Bradshaw (HOF)

10. Dan Reeves - QBs: John Elway (HOF), Phil Simms, Chris Chandler, Michael Vick

11. Chuck Knox - QBs: Ron Jaworski, Dave Krieg, Joe Ferguson, James Harris

12. Mike Tomlin - QBs: Ben Rothlisberger (f-HOF)

13. Mike McCarthy - QBs: Aaron Rodgers (f-HOF), Dak Prescott

14. Jeff Fisher - QBs: Chris Chandler, Steve McNair, Nick Foles, Jared Goff, 

15. Bill Parcells - QBs: Phil Simms, Drew Bledsoe, Vinny Testeverde, Tony Romo

16. Sean Payton - QBs: Drew Brees (f-HOF)

 

Why is it that most coaches are considered great when they win a lot (despite having elite QB play), but McDermott is only good because of elite QB play? The only other coach you ever really here referenced in such a way is Bill Belichick (questioning how good a coach he is/would be without Brady). But every other coach who wins is just considered great. Don Shula is the winningest coach ever. After that statement is uttered, I never hear, yeah well he had three Hall of Fame Quarterbacks. He probably would have sucked without them. Most "great" coaches had excellent to elite QB play for the majority of their careers (it appears to be a very symbiotic relationship). I'm not saying that every QB on the list above is as good as Josh (and not all of those coaches are considered great), but there are 17 HOFers. I wonder if that helped most of those coaches be great? And even when Sean Payton gets brought up, I never hear people say, yeah, well he only made 1 Super Bowl despite having a HOF QB for 15 years...what a waste. 

 

And currently (yes, with fewer seasons/games) Sean McDermott's winning percentage is better than all but four of those sixteen coaches (Shula, Halas, Landry, and Brown---and those 4 coaches had 8 HOF QBs playing for them). This McD is only good because of Josh sentiment, needs to be retired. Would he be AS good without Josh, of course not, but he also wouldn't suck...he's a very good coach.

 

Two other notions that need to go away are McD lucked into Josh and McD had no part in Josh's development:

 

First, they did not luck into Josh. Brandon, Sean, and the entire organization did exhaustive research on all of the QBs that year. They decided that they wanted Josh. They made two separate trades sending picks and players away to move up to #7 to get Josh. They tried to move up to as high as #2 to get him. There were a lot of QB hungry teams that passed on Josh or didn't try to go up and get him. It wasn't just the media and fans that weren't sold on Josh and thought he might be a bust in the waiting, a lot of teams did too. But the Bills identified Josh and did everything in their power to get him. Sure there is some luck involved (other teams ahead of us not picking him), but the Bills busted their butts to get him, he didn't fall into our laps.

 

And secondly, did McD work on Josh's mechanics, footwork, throwing motion, etc. Yeah, probably not. But he and Beane did put a plan of development together for Josh, they gave Josh the tools, they hired the right people to work with him, they empowered him, they tried to design the team around him, etc., etc. And if you don't think that a good culture, a stable organization, and a good relationship between HC and QB doesn't weigh in to a QBs development as well, well, you haven't been watching the NFL very closely over the last 10-50 years. Could Josh have been successful elsewhere? Of course. But are their some organizations where maybe he wouldn't have reached his full potential, yeah, that is probably true also.

 

 

Ok, one last gripe: Others already dispelled the playoff points in the last five losses, or whatever. that was brought up earlier in the thread as a knock against McD. But, even if that stat had been correct, how many of those other teams had to face Kansas City (or a similar dynasty team) 4 out of 5 years? Kind of makes a difference---rather than say losing to a 10-7/9-8 #4 or #5-seed in the Wild Card round.

 

 

As to the PFF rankings, if they are discussing where do the current coaches stack up All-Time/career, then sure Super Bowls and longevity should weigh in to the rankings (which pushes McD down a bit---fine). But, if they are talking who are the best coaches right now heading into 2025, then McD should be much higher on the list---definitely Top 10, probably somewhere in the 4-7 range, imo.

 

 

 

 

 

[GunnerBill]

10 minutes ago, folz said:

This first part is in response to some posters here, not the PFF ranking:

 

Coaches with the Most Wins in NFL History (and their main QBs):

1. Don Shula - QBs: Johnny Unitas (HOF), Bob Griese (HOF), Dan Marino (HOF)

2. George Halas - QBs: George Blanda (HOF), Sid Luckman (HOF), Bobby Layne (HOF)

3. Bill Belichick - QB: Tom Brady (f-HOF)

4. Andy Reid -  QBs: Patrick Mahomes (f-HOF), Donovan McNabb

5. Tom Landry -  QBs: Don Meredith, Roger Staubach (HOF), Danny White

6. Curly Lambeau -   QBs: Curly Lambeau (HOF) and Arnie Herber (two guys who pioneered the passing game in the NFL)

7. Paul Brown - QBs: Otto Graham (HOF), Ken Anderson

8. Marty Schottenheimer - QBs: Bernie Kosar, Joe Montana (HOF), Steve DeBerg, Drew Brees (f-HOF), Phillip Rivers

9. Chuck Knol - QB: Terry Bradshaw (HOF)

10. Dan Reeves - QBs: John Elway (HOF), Phil Simms, Chris Chandler, Michael Vick

11. Chuck Knox - QBs: Ron Jaworski, Dave Krieg, Joe Ferguson, James Harris

12. Mike Tomlin - QBs: Ben Rothlisberger (f-HOF)

13. Mike McCarthy - QBs: Aaron Rodgers (f-HOF), Dak Prescott

14. Jeff Fisher - QBs: Chris Chandler, Steve McNair, Nick Foles, Jared Goff, 

15. Bill Parcells - QBs: Phil Simms, Drew Bledsoe, Vinny Testeverde, Tony Romo

16. Sean Payton - QBs: Drew Brees (f-HOF)

 

Why is it that most coaches are considered great when they win a lot (despite having elite QB play), but McDermott is only good because of elite QB play? The only other coach you ever really here referenced in such a way is Bill Belichick (questioning how good a coach he is/would be without Brady). But every other coach who wins is just considered great. Don Shula is the winningest coach ever. After that statement is uttered, I never hear, yeah well he had three Hall of Fame Quarterbacks. He probably would have sucked without them. Most "great" coaches had excellent to elite QB play for the majority of their careers (it appears to be a very symbiotic relationship). I'm not saying that every QB on the list above is as good as Josh (and not all of those coaches are considered great), but there are 17 HOFers. I wonder if that helped most of those coaches be great? And even when Sean Payton gets brought up, I never hear people say, yeah, well he only made 1 Super Bowl despite having a HOF QB for 15 years...what a waste. 

 

And currently (yes, with fewer seasons/games) Sean McDermott's winning percentage is better than all but four of those sixteen coaches (Shula, Halas, Landry, and Brown---and those 4 coaches had 8 HOF QBs playing for them). This McD is only good because of Josh sentiment, needs to be retired. Would he be AS good without Josh, of course not, but he also wouldn't suck...he's a very good coach.

 

Two other notions that need to go away are McD lucked into Josh and McD had no part in Josh's development:

 

First, they did not luck into Josh. Brandon, Sean, and the entire organization did exhaustive research on all of the QBs that year. They decided that they wanted Josh. They made two separate trades sending picks and players away to move up to #7 to get Josh. They tried to move up to as high as #2 to get him. There were a lot of QB hungry teams that passed on Josh or didn't try to go up and get him. It wasn't just the media and fans that weren't sold on Josh and thought he might be a bust in the waiting, a lot of teams did too. But the Bills identified Josh and did everything in their power to get him. Sure there is some luck involved (other teams ahead of us not picking him), but the Bills busted their butts to get him, he didn't fall into our laps.

 

And secondly, did McD work on Josh's mechanics, footwork, throwing motion, etc. Yeah, probably not. But he and Beane did put a plan of development together for Josh, they gave Josh the tools, they hired the right people to work with him, they empowered him, they tried to design the team around him, etc., etc. And if you don't think that a good culture, a stable organization, and a good relationship between HC and QB doesn't weigh in to a QBs development as well, well, you haven't been watching the NFL very closely over the last 10-50 years. Could Josh have been successful elsewhere? Of course. But are their some organizations where maybe he wouldn't have reached his full potential, yeah, that is probably true also.

 

 

Ok, one last gripe: Others already dispelled the playoff points in the last five losses, or whatever. that was brought up earlier in the thread as a knock against McD. But, even if that stat had been correct, how many of those other teams had to face Kansas City (or a similar dynasty team) 4 out of 5 years? Kind of makes a difference---rather than say losing to a 10-7/9-8 #4 or #5-seed in the Wild Card round.

 

 

As to the PFF rankings, if they are discussing where do the current coaches stack up All-Time/career, then sure Super Bowls and longevity should weigh in to the rankings (which pushes McD down a bit---fine). But, if they are talking who are the best coaches right now heading into 2025, then McD should be much higher on the list---definitely Top 10, probably somewhere in the 4-7 range, imo.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Jeff Fisher has more wins than Bill Parcells? Wow.

[thenorthremembers]

2 hours ago, uticaclub said:

Consider the differences between the ownership of the Browns and the Bills. The decision to sign Deshaun Watson killed the Browns, yet Stefanski still managed to lead the team to the playoffs with Joe Flacco as quarterback. This achievement gave Stefanski an edge over McDermott. Unless the Bills go undefeated, McDermott is unlikely to win Coach of the Year. Therefore, he needs to reach the Super Bowl to gain the recognition he deserves.

 

and McDermott made it to the playoffs with Tyrod Taylor and 2nd year Josh Allen.     Your record is what it says you are.   To me wins and losses say way more about someone than and award voted on by writers.

[folz]

11 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Jeff Fisher has more wins than Bill Parcells? Wow.

 

Yes, Fisher has exactly one more win than Parcells. Hard to imagine, right?

 

Also, a couple of updates upon review: John Harbaugh (QBs: Flacco, Jackson) should have been slated in ahead of Sean Payton (Harbaugh has two more wins)...and to note, Pete Carroll, Mike Shanahan, and Tom Coughlin all had the same number of wins as Payton (so, if I included Payton, I should have included them too). But the point still stands.

[Buffalo Boy]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

Nobody is saying it is "cool". There is a big difference between "cool" and "must be the Head Coach's fault".

   You are reading too many threads with rose colored glasses brother Bill.

😉

[FireChans]

52 minutes ago, folz said:

Why is it that most coaches are considered great when they win a lot (despite having elite QB play), but McDermott is only good because of elite QB play?

 Not sure if computing. No one says Marty was great because he’s 8th in total wins. This is a strawman to no one in particular. 
 

No one thinks McD can carry Shula’s jock so why even bring it up?

 

The rest of your post basically boils down to “McDermott found/developed Josh so even if he is carried hard by Josh and is the reason Josh doesn’t have a SB ring yet, it’s okay because he found him”

[SoTier]

7 hours ago, FireChans said:

I mean, can you imagine if we win 10+ games every year and don't win a Super Bowl? What a waste.

 

Having a HOF caliber QB guarantees nothing.   Dan Marino never won a Super Bowl despite playing for 17 seasons under 2 HOF coaches, Don Shula and Jimmie Johnson, both of whom won Lombardis with other QBs.  In his 10 playoff seasons, Marino only played in one SB (after the 1984 season).  He lost in the AFC Conference Championship twice, the last loss (1992 season) to the Bills.  He also lost twice more in the playoffs to the Bills before his retirement.

 

5 hours ago, Gregg said:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/2025-nfl-head-coach-hot-seat-rankings-these-coaches-must-deliver-successful-seasons-or-risk-getting-fired/ar-AA1HtZJX

 

Obviously, the author of that op-ed piece could only find 4 NFL HCs on the proverbial "hot seat", so he scoured fan sites and discovered TSW's McDermott haters.  

 

1 hour ago, Buffalo Boy said:

   You are reading too many threads with rose colored glasses brother Bill.

😉

 

Sammy Sunshine strikes again.

Edited 6 hours ago by SoTier

[JakeFrommStateFarm]

I would rank him around 31.

 

After the 13 seconds incident that where he belongs

[Saint Doug]

Until he gets a Ring, he shouldn’t be included in this list. In fact, he can’t even get to a Super Bowl with arguably the best QB in the league. 

Edited 6 hours ago by Saint Doug

[Mikie2times]

We have a TBD fantasy league, and we seem to have a lot more sane conversations on this topic.  I’ll be the first to admit I’ve trashed McD for a long time, but I reserve the right to evolve my take.

 

Since 2017, no team in the NFL has forced more defensive turnovers. We average 1.6 takeaways per game in that span vs. an NFL average of 1.1. A turnover has an expected value of 3.5–4 points. We average half a turnover per game more than the league average over an 8-year sample. That means no matter how stupid or inept you think McD is, he's bringing a nearly 2 point per game boost to our team. No player on our team outside of Allen is worth 2 points per game. Very few in the NFL are worth that total.

 

The defensive turnovers aren’t luck and they won’t regress. This team has been doing it for years by forcing long drives, attacking the ball, and daring you to challenge deep. He did it in Carolina as well.

 

In addition, he has the 11th-best winning percentage in NFL history among coaches with over 100 games. Plenty of coaches have had Hall of Fame QBs and not come close to achieving that level of success. His approach has given this team a consistency that’s rarely seen in pro sports.

 

So to say he’s not a top-10 coach is pretty insane to be honest. At the same time, do those who feel like we’ve underachieved in the playoffs have a case? Yes, they 100% do. I’ve dropped statistical bombs toward that cause for a year+. We are significantly worse against KC than any other team who has faced them multiple times in the postseason. Our EPA defense in the playoffs is one of the largest deviations in modern history compared to the regular season. On top of it, most of us felt the ’90s team was about as celebrated as a team could be without a title. So these regular season championship awards just don’t do it for many. I can assure you, they don’t do it for me.

 

A time might come when we have to move on, and if it does, I’ll be OK with that. But I’d also expect Sean to get scooped up in about a half second. If we move on, it’s more for a change of pace or scenery and if you want to argue for that, go ahead. I have done that a ton over the years. Just know you’re on much stronger footing taking that stance than saying he stinks.

 

 

Edited 6 hours ago by Mikie2times

[Billsfed1]

Insanity. If he’s not the #1 coach he’s #2

[BillsFooteball]

3 hours ago, JakeFrommStateFarm said:

I would rank him around 31.

 

After the 13 seconds incident that where he belongs

Well the suspense is killing me! Who is #32 and the only coach in the NFL you rank McDermott ahead of?! 

[Big Turk]

Kinda silly when he has a win percentage of over .700

[uticaclub]

I guess McDermott should get more credit when you have Beane completely busting on the free agent and draft class of 2024. 

[folz]

5 hours ago, FireChans said:

 Not sure if computing. No one says Marty was great because he’s 8th in total wins. This is a strawman to no one in particular. 
 

No one thinks McD can carry Shula’s jock so why even bring it up?

 

The rest of your post basically boils down to “McDermott found/developed Josh so even if he is carried hard by Josh and is the reason Josh doesn’t have a SB ring yet, it’s okay because he found him”

 

Maybe I buried my lead. Some posters say McDermott's record or success as a HC is only because of Josh, i.e. Josh is carrying the team, and McD would not be a good coach without him. It gets brought up around here a lot.

 

I have heard people knock McDermott as a bad coach and in the same breath praise Sean Payton as a great coach. Yes, Sean Payton won one Super Bowl (his only appearance). He had future-HOFer Drew Brees for 15 years (5 of which were losing seasons). I never hear anyone say Drew Brees carried Sean Payton. And yet, if McD went 15 years with Drew Brees as his QB with only one SB appearance (and five losing seasons), he would be tarred and feathered here for wasting a HOF QB. And Payton has had some doozy playoff losses as well. It just seems like there is a double standard when it comes to McDermott. 

 

And no, I wasn't saying McDermott is as good of a coach as Don Shula. Just that Shula had 3 HOF QBs play for him (2 of the greatest QBs of all time), but no one says his success was only due to those QBs. We acknowledge that he was a great coach as well as having great QBs. 

 

And I wasn't trying to say that McDermott is an All-Time NFL coach by posting that list, I was just pointing out that all of these guys that we label as excellent coaches (who have won a lot of games and SBs or whatever) almost all had elite QB play. So, again, why do we not knock them for having great QBs, but with McDermott, all of his success is Josh and he would be terrible without Josh. There's no proof of that. He had an excellent run as a DC in Carolina, his one year as HC w/o Josh he took a bad team to the playoffs, besides last year, his defenses have been top 5 in scoring against, turnovers, etc. for like 5-6 years. If he were fired from Buffalo, he would be hired by another team very quickly. Just seems to me that there is more evidence that McDermott is a very good coach who is elevated by Josh, rather than a bad coach who would be nothing without Josh.

 

And no, helping to find and develop Josh does not give McDermott a free pass by any means, but he also wasn't just a lucky bystander in the whole process, as some like to post.