Is there an NFL team with a weaker WR group than the Bills?

[GASabresIUFan]

39 minutes ago, mannc said:

Then why is Shakir’s second contract about $5 million/year more than Cook will make on the open market?

Because the NFL is paying stupid money to WRs.  See the Cinn for example.  At some point the pendulum will swing the other way.  It always does.  That change is already happening.  7/8 of the most balanced run/pass teams made the playoffs and the least pass oriented team won the SB.  The NFL is a copycat league.  RBs are already coming back in vogue.  
 

 

[mannc]

11 minutes ago, GASabresIUFan said:

Because the NFL is paying stupid money to WRs.  See the Cinn for example.  At some point the pendulum will swing the other way.  It always does.  That change is already happening.  7/8 of the most balanced run/pass teams made the playoffs and the least pass oriented team won the SB.  The NFL is a copycat league.  RBs are already coming back in vogue.  
 

 

RBs may be coming back in vogue, but it’s still the easiest position in football to find cheap, high quality production, which is why they still rarely get second contracts.  

[Mikey152]

On 4/27/2025 at 12:18 PM, Kirby Jackson said:

It’s unreasonable to argue that they aren’t “one of the worst.” They were no better than the 25th best group on Wednesday. They went through the draft and added 1 guy, the 28th WR selected. You can split hairs if they’re 32 or 29 or whatever but tough to make a case that they are better. Good thing we have Josh Allen

I'd like to see the list...and the criteria.

 

Then I'd like to see their offensive production and win/loss records.

 

For example, the Bengals had arguably the best WR core in football last year. Certainly top 5. They also had a top 5 QB throwing to those receivers... 

 

Yet, they scored less points than the Bills, had lower yards per play and 3X the turnovers on offense. Oh and they had a much worse record and didn't make the playoffs.

 

So maybe having great receivers isn't as important as you think it is...kinda like a certain GM has been saying.

 

 

 

 

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

The addition of Moore to me means the Bills have four proven high end #3 receivers: Palmer, Shakir, Moore and Samuel. With Josh Allen throwing them the ball at least a couple of those guys are capable of putting up at least WR2 type numbers. And then Coleman's development and the role of Kincaid are kinda the wildcards for me. 

 

@Alphadawg7 is not going to like you calling Shakir a WR3.    He is, because the slot requires less of the skill that makes WR a premium position, so being slot-only lowers one's value.   It's manifested in the Bills offense by the fact that they feel it's best that he come off the field as much as he does.   So I gotta' agree with Gunner here @LEBills.    

 

But yeah, Coleman is the key, obviously.   I'll be pleasantly surprised if he develops that quickly, I figured it was a 3 year project at least.

[Don Otreply]

10 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

In this century the average defensive rank of teams that won the SB is about 8th.   

 

So that's what championship caliber looks like.

 

The Bills have had better than "championship caliber" defense's more often than not in Josh Allen's playoff career.   

 

But no matter their rank and skill level on D the McDefense's have always played badly in the end on defense.

 

And Josh Allen's offense's have failed in the clutch with the ball in his hands and a chance to win the game first against Houston and now two consecutive years against KC and they also had horrific performances in defeat in between against KC(2020) and Cinci(2022).    

 

Josh Allen only finished strong in 1 of his 6 playoff defeats(13 seconds) but for some reason we give his offense a pass despite not getting it done in the clutch.  

 

 I say "his" offense because, like McD on D, Allen is the constant on offense.      

 

Organizationally they play poorly in the playoffs.   They gotta' get better on BOTH sides of the ball in the playoffs.

 

Your last two sentences, although painful for some to hear are essentially true, 

[GunnerBill]

3 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

@Alphadawg7 is not going to like you calling Shakir a WR3.    He is, because the slot requires less of the skill that makes WR a premium position, so being slot-only lowers one's value.   It's manifested in the Bills offense by the fact that they feel it's best that he come off the field as much as he does.   So I gotta' agree with Gunner here @LEBills.    

 

But yeah, Coleman is the key, obviously.   I'll be pleasantly surprised if he develops that quickly, I figured it was a 3 year project at least.

 

Yea it is also a numbers point for me. If he can start stacking 800+ yard seasons together then fine, I'm willing to bump him up to a WR2 definition despite his limitations anywhere but the slot. At the moment in his two years starting he has a 600 yard season and an 800 yard season. If he settles more at the 2024 end of that (and I think he can), fine, happy to call him a WR2. 

 

And before I get the pile on I will just remind everyone that my yards and touchdowns prediction for Shakir in 2024 was out by one single yard. I had 820 and 4. I've got a good handle on who he is. 

[TheyCallMeAndy]

Palmer - 3rd, has developed into a dependable outside WR. Probably profiles best as a WR2.

 

Coleman - 2nd, still developing but had a real strong stretch as a rookie. According to Allen, he's added bulk this summer. 
 

Shakir - 5th, has developed into a near elite slot WR.

 

Moore - 2nd, plagued with poor QB/OCs and stats resemble it. That said, his catch rate and drop rate numbers are solid. 
 

Samuel - 2nd, issues staying healthy but has proven to be a good slot WR and gadget player.

 

Shenualt - 2nd, hard to say what the issue is, career got off to a good start. Also has good catch and drop rate numbers. 

[Kirby Jackson]

14 minutes ago, Mikey152 said:

I'd like to see the list...and the criteria.

 

Then I'd like to see their offensive production and win/loss records.

 

For example, the Bengals had arguably the best WR core in football last year. Certainly top 5. They also had a top 5 QB throwing to those receivers... 

 

Yet, they scored less points than the Bills, had lower yards per play and 3X the turnovers on offense. Oh and they had a much worse record and didn't make the playoffs.

 

So maybe having great receivers isn't as important as you think it is...kinda like a certain GM has been saying.

 

 

 

 

Lol, I hate this argument. The Bills offense scored a lot of points. The Bills have one of the worst WR rooms in the league. Both of those things can be true. They have an elite OL, one of the best players in the league at QB, good to very good backs, one of the best OCs in the league, had the highest turnover margin in the NFL and the fewest negative plays ever (or something like that). That allowed them to produce at a high level despite the lack of talent in the WR room. If they can maintain those things again, I expect them to remain good.

 

Why are we believing Beane when his actions show that he isn’t content with the group? He brought in Elijah Moore a day after the draft. He gave a 3rd for 1/2 a year of Cooper. They averaged like 7 more points a game with him in the lineup or something. That’s not just coincidence. Teams changed the way that they defended the Bills. He used 9 (or whatever) of his 30 predraft visits on speed receivers. He can say, “the offense is good I’m not worried about receivers.” You’d have to be pretty simple though to believe it based on his actions. The group is better today than they were a week ago. 
 

Again, maybe the Bills can win again with a bottom 5 group of WRs. They did last year. They had a lot go their way. I sure hope they can. I do think great receivers are important. The Super Bowl Champs pay their top 2 WRs $57M a year. They clearly think it matters. There are multiple ways to win. The Bills have chosen to build elsewhere and to try to win WITH the WR group that they have. It has worked for them to this point. That doesn’t mean that they are good though.

[Alphadawg7]

55 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

@Alphadawg7 is not going to like you calling Shakir a WR3.    He is, because the slot requires less of the skill that makes WR a premium position, so being slot-only lowers one's value.   It's manifested in the Bills offense by the fact that they feel it's best that he come off the field as much as he does.   So I gotta' agree with Gunner here @LEBills.    

 

But yeah, Coleman is the key, obviously.   I'll be pleasantly surprised if he develops that quickly, I figured it was a 3 year project at least.

 

Shakir is a slot WR, there is no debate from me, never has been as I pounded the table to draft him and then to play him over that scrub McKenzie once Crowder was hurt.  So if you, or anyone else, wants to label him a "WR3" because they always label the outside guys WR1 & WR2 then slot WR3...then fine.  

 

But he is more than a "WR3" in terms of him being the 3rd WR option, he just led the Bills in receiving where by definition he was a primary target.  So in terms of role, ability, production...yeah no, he isn't a "3rd option at WR" and is clearly more important and has a bigger role than that, and has been quite successful in such role. 

[Mikey152]

24 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Lol, I hate this argument. The Bills offense scored a lot of points. The Bills have one of the worst WR rooms in the league. Both of those things can be true. They have an elite OL, one of the best players in the league at QB, good to very good backs, one of the best OCs in the league, had the highest turnover margin in the NFL and the fewest negative plays ever (or something like that). That allowed them to produce at a high level despite the lack of talent in the WR room. If they can maintain those things again, I expect them to remain good.

 

Why are we believing Beane when his actions show that he isn’t content with the group? He brought in Elijah Moore a day after the draft. He gave a 3rd for 1/2 a year of Cooper. They averaged like 7 more points a game with him in the lineup or something. That’s not just coincidence. Teams changed the way that they defended the Bills. He used 9 (or whatever) of his 30 predraft visits on speed receivers. He can say, “the offense is good I’m not worried about receivers.” You’d have to be pretty simple though to believe it based on his actions. The group is better today than they were a week ago. 
 

Again, maybe the Bills can win again with a bottom 5 group of WRs. They did last year. They had a lot go their way. I sure hope they can. I do think great receivers are important. The Super Bowl Champs pay their top 2 WRs $57M a year. They clearly think it matters. There are multiple ways to win. The Bills have chosen to build elsewhere and to try to win WITH the WR group that they have. It has worked for them to this point. That doesn’t mean that they are good though.

The reason you hate this argument is because you have no real answer for it.

 

Brandon Beane's job is to make this team better. If he wasn't trying to make the WR room better, he wouldn't be doing his job. But that doesn't happen in a vacuum. There is one draft and one salary cap. Every pick and dollar you spend on one position is a pick and dollar you don't have for another. 

 

The problem with your argument that we need better receivers ISNT ABOUT the receivers we have. It never has been. Nobody, ever, on this board has EVER said we have a top 5 or even top 10 group, subjectively. What most people who aren't on this WR train HAVE said, repeatedly, is that we are spending an adequate amount of our overall resources on WR. Because THAT is what actually matters.

 

Simple question:  If last year Josh Allen and Joe Burrow switched teams, who wins more games?

 

Every team WANTS all pros at every position. The Bills aren't actively trying to NOT do that. But team building is give and take. You don't just get all pros without giving something...and you seem to constantly ignore the cost.

[Low Positive]

Stop pointing to the Eagles as an example to follow. If the owner has enough money, the NFL is essentially an uncapped league and the Eagles best asset, by far, is Jeffery Lurie. No other owner in the NFL is willing to spend that much cash upfront to kick cap hits down the road. The cap tricks they use are used by no other team in the league, at least at that volume, because no other owner is willing to spend like that. It makes Roseman's job easy. He gets all that value at the bottom of the first because he's not filling needs and can take a stud at a non-premium position. They're the only team that could have had a top paid QB and a pair of top paid WRs and still have the money to sign Barkley to the highest RB contract. All while having a defense that's loaded and the best OL in the league. And when they make mistakes, they use money to get out of it. Wiff on Jalen Reagor? Use Lurie cash to solve that problem with AJ Brown. People don't talk about it because they can't be fired, but owner is perhaps the most important in professional sports.

[Kirby Jackson]

26 minutes ago, Mikey152 said:

The reason you hate this argument is because you have no real answer for it.

 

Brandon Beane's job is to make this team better. If he wasn't trying to make the WR room better, he wouldn't be doing his job. But that doesn't happen in a vacuum. There is one draft and one salary cap. Every pick and dollar you spend on one position is a pick and dollar you don't have for another. 

 

The problem with your argument that we need better receivers ISNT ABOUT the receivers we have. It never has been. Nobody, ever, on this board has EVER said we have a top 5 or even top 10 group, subjectively. What most people who aren't on this WR train HAVE said, repeatedly, is that we are spending an adequate amount of our overall resources on WR. Because THAT is what actually matters.

 

Simple question:  If last year Josh Allen and Joe Burrow switched teams, who wins more games?

 

Every team WANTS all pros at every position. The Bills aren't actively trying to NOT do that. But team building is give and take. You don't just get all pros without giving something...and you seem to constantly ignore the cost.

Bro, I just wrote a 3 paragraph response answering it. 🤣🤣 

 

The Bills have a bottom 5 WR room. It’s almost impossible to argue otherwise. The Bills have a top 5 offense. It’s almost impossible to argue otherwise. Would the Bills offense be better with better WRs? Of course it would. Would the team overall have been better by adding Thornton instead of Walker for example? Nobody knows. We have our feelings and beliefs but the answer is nobody knows and nobody will ever know. 
 

I don’t understand the Josh Allen and Joe Burrow switching teams question. Josh Allen was the MVP of the league. Joe Burrow was elite on a bad, poorly coached team. My guess is the Bills record would have been a little worse than it was with Burrow and the Bengals record would have been a little better with Allen. They are both elite QBs with different skill sets. Both were in the top 5 in points scored. The Bills led the league in turnover margin by 8!! For context they were +24 and only one other NFL team was more than +12 (Pittsburgh at +16). The Bengals finished at +3. I’m assuming that 21 turnover gap would have been important to team records. 
 

Lol, I spent 6 seasons in a front office. Obviously I understand the give and take of building a roster. Of course you have to make certain decisions at the expense of others. I’ve said, 50 times since the draft that I would have addressed speed receiver at the expense of competition for Cam Lewis, J’Marcus Ingram and Reggie Gilliam. That, to me, would have been a better use of resources. That’s my opinion. Beane went in a different direction. It doesn’t mean that he is right or that I am right. We will never know. 
 

FWIW, I like the Moore signing a lot. He has good skills and fills some gaps that the room was missing. At the same time he averaged 8 yards a catch last year. He hasn’t lived up to the prospect that he was. He’s had bad organizations and QBs. It’s a good chance to take for the Bills. His presence alone though doesn’t elevate the group. To be better than a bottom 5 group they’ll need growth from Coleman, Samuel, and Moore. They’ll need Josh Palmer to fit like they think he will. If that happens, they’ll be better than last years group.

Edited 3 hours ago by Kirby Jackson

[LEBills]

18 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Bro, I just wrote a 3 paragraph response answering it. 🤣🤣 

 

The Bills have a bottom 5 WR room. It’s almost impossible to argue otherwise. The Bills have a top 5 offense. It’s almost impossible to argue otherwise. Would the Bills offense be better with better WRs? Of course it would. Would the team overall have been better by adding Thornton instead of Walker for example? Nobody knows. We have our feelings and beliefs but the answer is nobody knows and nobody will ever know. 
 

I don’t understand the Josh Allen and Joe Burrow switching teams question. Josh Allen was the MVP of the league. Joe Burrow was elite on a bad, poorly coached team. My guess is the Bills record would have been a little worse than it was with Burrow and the Bengals record would have been a little better with Allen. They are both elite QBs with different skill sets. Both were in the top 5 in points scored. The Bills led the league in turnover margin by 8!! For context they were +24 and only one other NFL team was more than +12 (Pittsburgh at +16). The Bengals finished at +3. I’m assuming that 21 turnover gap would have been important to team records. 
 

Lol, I spent 6 seasons in a front office. Obviously I understand the give and take of building a roster. Of course you have to make certain decisions at the expense of others. I’ve said, 50 times since the draft that I would have addressed speed receiver at the expense of competition for Cam Lewis, J’Marcus Ingram and Reggie Gilliam. That, to me, would have been a better use of resources. That’s my opinion. Beane went in a different direction. It doesn’t mean that he is right or that I am right. We will never know. 
 

FWIW, I like the Moore signing a lot. He has good skills and fills some gaps that the room was missing. At the same time he averaged 8 yards a catch last year. He hasn’t lived up to the prospect that he was. He’s had bad organizations and QBs. It’s a good chance to take for the Bills. His presence alone though doesn’t elevate the group. To be better than a bottom 5 group they’ll need growth from Coleman, Samuel, and Moore. They’ll need Josh Palmer to fit like they think he will. If that happens, they’ll be better than last years group.

Good on you for the patience to keep going over this stuff. I had to tap out several pages ago.

[BillsVet]

1 hour ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Again, maybe the Bills can win again with a bottom 5 group of WRs. They did last year. They had a lot go their way. I sure hope they can. I do think great receivers are important. The Super Bowl Champs pay their top 2 WRs $57M a year. They clearly think it matters. There are multiple ways to win. The Bills have chosen to build elsewhere and to try to win WITH the WR group that they have. It has worked for them to this point. That doesn’t mean that they are good though.

 

The WR debate is really just a front in this larger debate over McBeane's philosophy.  Should be clear after these past 5 off-seasons it's (1) defense, particularly the DL and secondary along with (2) having a strong OL since Josh proved they have the QB.  WR is far down the priority list and Beane isn't about to debate that no matter what.  

 

They didn't change the philosophy after 2020 when Josh proved he was their starting QB.  They didn't change it when Josh re-signed the following off-season.  They didn't change it after trading Diggs, and I don't expect them to change it even if 2025's quantity WR approach v2.0 doesn't work.  Either they prove it works or die trying and from the looks of it that group is here to stay.    

[JESSEFEFFER]

I think I agree with the fantasy football remark that Brandon Beane made on WGR.  If your WR group doesn't drop many passes or fumble the ball, blocks well for the run game, does really well with RAC, has some solid contributors to STs, has enough depth to overcome injuries and adds to the productivity of a team's historically good offense, that's a good WR room. 

 

Fantasy football doesn't care about any of those things.  It cares about volume stats for individual players.   Those stats often come from spending much of a season  playing from behind and not from a team that is great at the RZ run game.  So, they may be bottom 5 in fantasy football desirability but they can be a much bigger asset than that in terms of their contribution to winning.  We had the same debate starting last summer going through to end of the preseason in the mega, 170 page "I'm really starting to love this WR room. We quietly got better" thread.  And yes, the 2025 group has a chance to be better than the 2024 group.

[Mikey152]

24 minutes ago, JESSEFEFFER said:

I think I agree with the fantasy football remark that Brandon Beane made on WGR.  If your WR group doesn't drop many passes or fumble the ball, blocks well for the run game, does really well with RAC, has some solid contributors to STs, has enough depth to overcome injuries and adds to the productivity of a team's historically good offense, that's a good WR room. 

 

Fantasy football doesn't care about any of those things.  It cares about volume stats for individual players.   Those stats often come from spending much of a season  playing from behind and not from a team that is great at the RZ run game.  So, they may be bottom 5 in fantasy football desirability but they can be a much bigger asset than that in terms of their contribution to winning.  We had the same debate starting last summer going through to end of the preseason in the mega, 170 page "I'm really starting to love this WR room. We quietly got better" thread.  And yes, the 2025 group has a chance to be better than the 2024 group.

Agreed.

 

That's why I was asking for criteria for what makes a top WR room. 

 

Kirby said it can be true that our WR are bottom 5 and our offense is top 5. Well, if both of those are true, that tells me that either your criteria for grading WR rooms isn't very good, or WR rooms aren't critical to a top offense. There really isn't any other answer, and either way that calls the criticism of Beane RE: WR into question.

[Kirby Jackson]

9 minutes ago, Mikey152 said:

Agreed.

 

That's why I was asking for criteria for what makes a top WR room. 

 

Kirby said it can be true that our WR are bottom 5 and our offense is top 5. Well, if both of those are true, that tells me that either your criteria for grading WR rooms isn't very good, or WR rooms aren't critical to a top offense. There really isn't any other answer, and either way that calls the criticism of Beane RE: WR into question.

The Lions led the league in scoring. Goff was the trigger man. Does that make him the top QB? Top 5? No, there’s no correlation. The Lions were the top offense WITH Goff not because of him. The Bills were a top 5 offense BECAUSE of Josh Allen. Nuance 

 

The Eagles won the Super Bowl with 2 of the top 12 paid WRs in football. They’d say that it’s very important. Everyone is different

Edited 1 hour ago by Kirby Jackson

[Mikey152]

7 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

The Lions led the league in scoring. Goff was the trigger man. Does that make him the top QB? Top 5? No, there’s no correlation. The Lions were the top offense WITH Goff not because of him. The Bills were a top 5 offense BECAUSE of Josh Allen. Nuance 

This feels like a pretty subjective take...Josh Allen would be the first one to tell you he doesn't do it by himself and even the biggest Josh Allen fanboy should be able to admit that he couldn't carry ANY nfl team to 13-4 and the AFC championship game.  His team has something to do with it.

 

But either way, all you really did is prove the point. A top offense is about the team and there are many ways to build one.

 

But sure, take out WR and say QB.  Detroit was a top 5 offense and apparently doesn't have a top 5 QB.  So either you graded the QB wrong, or a top QB isn't required for a top offense.

 

 

Edited 1 hour ago by Mikey152

[Kirby Jackson]

12 minutes ago, Mikey152 said:

This feels like a pretty subjective take...Josh Allen would be the first one to tell you he doesn't do it by himself and even the biggest Josh Allen fanboy should be able to admit that he couldn't carry ANY nfl team to 13-4 and the AFC championship game.  His team has something to do with it.

 

But either way, all you really did is prove the point. A top offense is about the team and there are many ways to build one.

 

But sure, take out WR and say QB.  Detroit was a top 5 offense and apparently doesn't have a top 5 QB.  So either you graded the QB wrong, or a top QB isn't required for a top offense.

 

 

My goodness, it’s not complicated. The offense being good doesn’t mean every position group is good. The same goes for the defense. You can be a great defense and have bad LBs. I’m not sure what you’re trying to prove because you aren’t doing a very good job articulating it. The Super Bowl Champs have 2 of the top 12 paid WRs. A top _____ isn’t required to have a top offense or defense. That’s the entire point I’ve been trying to make. With that being said, the Bills have a top offense without having good receivers. 

[DabillsDaBillsDaBills]

2 hours ago, Low Positive said:

Stop pointing to the Eagles as an example to follow. If the owner has enough money, the NFL is essentially an uncapped league and the Eagles best asset, by far, is Jeffery Lurie. No other owner in the NFL is willing to spend that much cash upfront to kick cap hits down the road. The cap tricks they use are used by no other team in the league, at least at that volume, because no other owner is willing to spend like that. It makes Roseman's job easy. He gets all that value at the bottom of the first because he's not filling needs and can take a stud at a non-premium position. They're the only team that could have had a top paid QB and a pair of top paid WRs and still have the money to sign Barkley to the highest RB contract. All while having a defense that's loaded and the best OL in the league. And when they make mistakes, they use money to get out of it. Wiff on Jalen Reagor? Use Lurie cash to solve that problem with AJ Brown. People don't talk about it because they can't be fired, but owner is perhaps the most important in professional sports.

 

There's plenty of owners willing to spend cash to kick cap hits down the road. Most don't get the same results that the Eagles do. 

 

The Browns (lol) led the league in cash spending last season. 

 

The Eagles have that loaded roster from hitting on a lot of recent draft picks, fleecing a few teams in trades, and not handing out bad contracts. There's nothing unusual or special about how much cash Lurie is spending on the team.