I'm really starting to love this WR room. We quietly got better

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

Meanwhile, Worthy with a huge catch in a big moment.

 

Big win for big baller Beane 

[Heels20X6]

25 minutes ago, Pine Barrens Mafia said:

Meanwhile, Worthy with a huge catch in a big moment.

 

Big win for big baller Beane 

Worthy has been hot trash all season. That’s like pointing to Keon’s last TD catch and crowing about that. 

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, BillsFan130 said:

Im not here to argue that the bills have good players on offence. They don't.

 

You just quoted saying that Joe Brady isn't a problem. I gave you the all 22 breakdown to show you he is a problem. Everything else is a moot point cause I'm not disagreeing with you that they don't have a lot of talent.

 

Two things can be true.

 

1. Joe Brady is a problem 

2. The talent isn't good enough 

 

 

More like:

 

1. Talent at WR is a problem

2. LB is a problem.....both talent decline and injury

3. Injuries at DL are a problem

4. Kincaid getting injured over and over despite being handled with care is a problem

5. Injuries at CB are a problem

6. Bad safety play is a problem

 

 

It's on there......but WAYYYYYY down the list is coaching is a problem........they aren't being out coached on the regular in these losses.   They are losing individual matchups and fumbling the ball away.  

 

Houston didn't out-coach the Bills their defense just won almost every individual matchup.  Expecting a coach to elevate the #32 pass WR group over the #1 CB group in the NFL is unrealistic.   Allen was going to have to buy A LOT of time for that and like I said......this wasn't the opponent for that.

 

 

[Kirby Jackson]

1 hour ago, BillsFan130 said:

Im not here to argue that the bills have good players on offence. They don't.

 

You just quoted saying that Joe Brady isn't a problem. I gave you the all 22 breakdown to show you he is a problem. Everything else is a moot point cause I'm not disagreeing with you that they don't have a lot of talent.

 

Two things can be true.

 

1. Joe Brady is a problem 

2. The talent isn't good enough 

 

11 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

More like:

 

1. Talent at WR is a problem

2. LB is a problem.....both talent decline and injury

3. Injuries at DL are a problem

4. Kincaid getting injured over and over despite being handled with care is a problem

5. Injuries at CB are a problem

6. Bad safety play is a problem

 

 

It's on there......but WAYYYYYY down the list is coaching is a problem........they aren't being out coached on the regular in these losses.   They are losing individual matchups and fumbling the ball away.  

 

Houston didn't out-coach the Bills their defense just won almost every individual matchup.  Expecting a coach to elevate the #32 pass WR group over the #1 CB group in the NFL is unrealistic.   Allen was going to have to buy A LOT of time for that and like I said......this wasn't the opponent for that.

 

 

Brady hasn’t been good. I think though where there’s some disagreement is how much is him vs. the WRs. I’d say it’s 80-85% the talent at WR. It’s 15-20% the position that he’s putting those bad WRs in. 

[BillsFan130]

Just now, Kirby Jackson said:

 

Brady hasn’t been good. I think though where there’s some disagreement is how much is him vs. the WRs. I’d say it’s 80-85% the talent at WR. It’s 15-20% the position that he’s putting those bad WRs in. 

That's fair. I think the percentage is a bit more even though 

 

The receivers suck, but every single receivers numbers are down since joining the bills with Brady 

Moore can get over 600 yards with Cleveland but he can barely get a jersey on the bills?

 

Diggs was on pace for over 1000 yards in 2023 with the bills but then his production takes a nose dive when Joe comes in.

Point being: The receivers are bad, but we have a pretty big sample size that most receivers usually have career low stats with joe brady, with the exception of maybe Shakir

 

[Einstein]

12 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

 

Brady hasn’t been good. I think though where there’s some disagreement is how much is him vs. the WRs. I’d say it’s 80-85% the talent at WR. It’s 15-20% the position that he’s putting those bad WRs in. 

 

Id say 70/30 WR’s.

 

The receivers are awful, but Brady running mesh and 5 linemen and WR screens on repeat is not helping those awful receivers. Which is.. well.. kinda his job.

[Kirby Jackson]

14 minutes ago, BillsFan130 said:

That's fair. I think the percentage is a bit more even though 

 

The receivers suck, but every single receivers numbers are down since joining the bills with Brady 

Moore can get over 600 yards with Cleveland but he can barely get a jersey on the bills?

 

Diggs was on pace for over 1000 yards in 2023 with the bills but then his production takes a nose dive when Joe comes in.

Point being: The receivers are bad, but we have a pretty big sample size that most receivers usually have career low stats with joe brady, with the exception of maybe Shakir

 

If you rank WR groups 1-32, the Bills would be no higher than 30 (maybe 32). If you ranked the job that OCs are doing 1-32, Brady isn’t going to be 30 or worse. It’s not an even split. You can’t coach up bad players. He hasn’t put them in position to overachieve but they’re so limited that it impacts what he can do.
 

Again, he’s been bad but compared to the talent at WR, they’re a significantly larger problem. He’s had success elsewhere. These guys haven’t. 
 

EDIT: If we believe that he is the one that wanted this “everybody eats” nonsense than his percentage of blame increases. The whole idea of having a handful of bad players instead of some top end talent is ridiculous. He was publicly promoting that ridiculousness but was it because he believed it or because that’s what he had to deal with?

Edited 1 hour ago by Kirby Jackson

[BillsFan130]

Just now, Kirby Jackson said:

If you rank WR groups 1-32, the Bills would be no higher than 30 (maybe 32). If you ranked the job that OCs are doing 1-32, Brady isn’t going to be 30 or worse. It’s not an even split. You can’t coach up bad players. He hasn’t put them in position to overachieve but they’re so limited that it impacts what he can do.
 

Again, he’s been bad but compared to the talent at WR, they’re a significantly larger problem. He’s had success elsewhere. These guys haven’t. 

Ok let's say this..

 

Diggs 2023 and Waddle right now. Probably pretty close for talent, right? Give or take.

 

And in 2023 Diggs production was awful when Joe Brady took over.

So my question to you is- Even if the bills traded for waddle, what makes you think the Bills would maximize the investment under Joe Brady? 

As we had a good receiver with Diggs and a decent receiving group in totality in 2023, but the passing game production wasn't good when Brady took over

[BADOLBILZ]

15 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

 

Brady hasn’t been good. I think though where there’s some disagreement is how much is him vs. the WRs. I’d say it’s 80-85% the talent at WR. It’s 15-20% the position that he’s putting those bad WRs in. 

 

I'd agree that it's 80-85% the talent too.  But the rest is split between Brady and Allen.   What % is debatable but Allen definitely shares fault.

 

Allen just hasn't been patient and safe with the football this year.  

 

EVERY QB has their limits with regard to how little talent they can function at a high level with.

 

In 2019 Tom Brady had an 88 QBR and averaged 6.6 ypa.   That was the NE passing game talent bottoming out.  

 

THIS is the Bills passing game bottoming out.  

 

All that said,  if Kincaid could have stayed healthy they might be the #1 seed.   It's THAT close.   Kincaid has an absurd 155 passer rating when targeted and almost 16 yards per catch.  He was poised to bail out the "everybody eats" crowd.   But Beane knew he was made of glass.  They said as much at the end of season pressers last year.  

 

Beane is far and away the biggest culprit.

[GoBills808]

9 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

If you rank WR groups 1-32, the Bills would be no higher than 30 (maybe 32). If you ranked the job that OCs are doing 1-32, Brady isn’t going to be 30 or worse. It’s not an even split. You can’t coach up bad players. He hasn’t put them in position to overachieve but they’re so limited that it impacts what he can do.
 

Again, he’s been bad but compared to the talent at WR, they’re a significantly larger problem. He’s had success elsewhere. These guys haven’t. 
 

EDIT: If we believe that he is the one that wanted this “everybody eats” nonsense than his percentage of blame increases. The whole idea of having a handful of bad players instead of some top end talent is ridiculous. He was publicly promoting that ridiculousness but was it because he believed it or because that’s what he had to deal with?

'everybody eats' is the offspring of 'i want to be a physical offense' fwiw

[Kirby Jackson]

3 minutes ago, BillsFan130 said:

Ok let's say this..

 

Diggs 2023 and Waddle right now. Probably pretty close for talent, right? Give or take.

 

And in 2023 Diggs production was awful when Joe Brady took over.

So my question to you is- Even if the bills traded for waddle, what makes you think the Bills would maximize the investment under Joe Brady? 

As we had a good receiver with Diggs and a decent receiving group in totality in 2023, but the passing game production wasn't good when Brady took over

I’m not sure that they’d “maximize” him. I’m sure that the passing game would improve because his talent would get him open some. That’s what good receivers do. That’s why they get paid what they do. It’s a very important role and is one of the most impactful positions on the team. 
 

None of these WRs that they have were ever good. I think that they have combined for 2 seasons of 800 yards and 1 more at 700. That’s awful. These aren’t guys that are now struggling. They were never any good. 

6 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

I'd agree that it's 80-85% the talent too.  But the rest is split between Brady and Allen.   What % is debatable but Allen definitely shares fault.

 

Allen just hasn't been patient and safe with the football this year.  

 

EVERY QB has their limits with regard to how little talent they can function at a high level with.

 

In 2019 Tom Brady had an 88 QBR and averaged 6.6 ypa.   That was the NE passing game talent bottoming out.  

 

THIS is the Bills passing game bottoming out.  

 

All that said,  if Kincaid could have stayed healthy they might be the #1 seed.   It's THAT close.   Kincaid has an absurd 155 passer rating when targeted and almost 16 yards per catch.  He was poised to bail out the "everybody eats" crowd.   But Beane knew he was made of glass.  They said as much at the end of season pressers last year.  

 

Beane is far and away the biggest culprit.

I’d add another layer and that’s the OL. They’ve really struggled this year. Allen/Brady/OL share blame at some percentage. 

[BillsFan130]

3 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

I’m not sure that they’d “maximize” him. I’m sure that the passing game would improve because his talent would get him open some. That’s what good receivers do. That’s why they get paid what they do. It’s a very important role and is one of the most impactful positions on the team. 
 

None of these WRs that they have were ever good. I think that they have combined for 2 seasons of 800 yards and 1 more at 700. That’s awful. These aren’t guys that are now struggling. They were never any good. 

Fair. My overall point though is Joe Brady holds the passing offence back- We  saw it in 2023 when the receivers were descent.

 

And to your point, the receivers also suck.

I just don't think if we had an alpha receiver, that it would dramatically change our offence as our passing concepts are extremely elementary 

Edited 59 minutes ago by BillsFan130

[ColoradoBills]

This thread will not die.

 

[artmalibu]

The current WRs are better that the production suggests. Three of the WRs produced more other places.  

 

The game plan sucks and so does the play calling.  Not to mention bad game managing which likely cost a win on Thursday.

 

Its a sin in the NFL to be so predictable.  Everyone knows if a run or pass is coming based on the formation and who is on the field.  

[Kirby Jackson]

50 minutes ago, BillsFan130 said:

Fair. My overall point though is Joe Brady holds the passing offence back- We  saw it in 2023 when the receivers were descent.

 

And to your point, the receivers also suck.

I just don't think if we had an alpha receiver, that it would dramatically change our offence as our passing concepts are extremely elementary 

He’s a contributor for sure. An alpha would push everyone to their more natural roles. If you added, Pickens, for example, now Palmer is 2 and Shakir in the slot. I think that they actually need a 2 as well.

 

At some point, guys have to win their matchups. There is almost never a time that the Bills WRs are better than the guys across from them. Some of that is a function of everyone being elevated. Josh Palmer should be the 3rd best outside guy. He’s the top. Shakir is a good slot. Coleman is a fringe NFL player. Samuel is a gadget guy that can’t stay healthy. A horrible Browns offense let Moore walk. Shavers was an UDFA that’s kicked around on the practice squad. These guys are lining up against starting NFL corners. They’re predictably getting locked up. 

Edited 10 minutes ago by Kirby Jackson

[BillsFan130]

Just now, Kirby Jackson said:

He’s a contributor for sure. An alpha would push everyone to their more natural  roles. If you added, Pickens, for example, now Palmer is 2 and Shakir in the slot. I think that they actually need a 2 as well.

 

At some point, guys have to win their matchups. There is almost never a time that the Bills WRs are better than the guys across from them. Some of that is a function of everyone being elevated. Josh Palmer should be the 3rd best outside guy. He’s the top. Shakir is a good slot. Coleman is a fringe NFL player. Samuel is a gadget guy that can’t stay healthy. A horrible Browns offense let Moore walk. Shavers was an UDFA that’s kicked around on the practice squad. These guys are lining up against starting NFL corners. They’re predictably getting locked up. 

We are in the same agreement that the receivers aren't good. Where we disagree is how much it's on Joe Brady.

 

Cosell even broke down how elementary their passing concepts are, and says in practice they are more concerned about their receivers going over run blocking, opposed to the actual pass offence.

 

I just don't think it would change a lot if we had an alpha and I would point to 2023 as some evidence to back up my point. But we can agree to disagree.

(I def agree with you that the receivers do suck and I'm not arguing that)

[YoloinOhio]

Please for the love of all things holy stop bumping this thread it’s so triggering 

[BADOLBILZ]

8 minutes ago, artmalibu said:

The current WRs are better that the production suggests. Three of the WRs produced more other places.  

 

 

 

Who are you even talking about?   Shakir, Coleman and Shavers have not played elsewhere.   Samuel has been constantly injured so rarely available in Buffalo for 2 years and clearly past his prime.   Josh Palmer averaged 1.5 yards per route run in LA last year and is at like 1.75 yprr in Buffalo.   He's been elevated, if anything.   These are WR3-WR4 types even if not injured.

 

[Joe Ferguson]

Aged like stale milk in the Miami stadium. 

[L Ron Burgundy]

Heh, hindsight can be a biatch.