The pass offense still doesn't look right...right?

[GoBills808]

1 hour ago, finn said:

I just wonder how Baltimore's receivers always appear to be wide open, much like Kelce in past years, while our receivers are open only because they're terrific route runners (Diggs) or someone falls down (Davis). Maybe they have a better coordinator.

 

My take is that Allen has made a one-man receiving corps look average or even above average at times over the past six years. Thank god Shakir is developing and Kincaid looks good. With Diggs evidently fading, the cupboard is otherwise empty. 

Their entire WR corp is composed of first round picks

 

wideouts go in the first round for a reason

[FireChans]

3 hours ago, QB Bills said:

Maybe it's just me and I'm romanticizing the latter Daboll years, but the passing offense still seems a bit disjointed, does it not?

 

A lot of the success seems to come down from broken down plays that Allen has to improvise on as opposed to guys being schemed open or even the odd gadget play. I agree that a big chunk of Allen's success will depend on him just not thinking and going off-script at times but I think back to some of the games he had earlier in his career and how they made everything look so easy, even against some really good defenses.

 

Keep hoping every week that they can get things together but I don't think that's happening without a new OC. On the other hand, I think Josh is that good where he can single-handedly win you the next three games to make this point moot but I would still love to see what he could do with some fresh blood in the coaching room.

Passing offense looks about as expected with an aging WR1, a fifth round second year player and a rookie TE being your best receiving targets in a bad scheme with a new OC trying his best to fix it mid season.

[Low Positive]

3 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

should have been 37

Should have been 34. Longer FGs in the cold are not gimmies, but kicks under 30 yards should not be missed.

[FireChans]

Just now, GoBills808 said:

Their entire WR corp is composed of first round picks

 

wideouts go in the first round for a reason

WR WR with first two picks next year please and thank you. 

[YattaOkasan]

3 hours ago, QB Bills said:

Maybe it's just me and I'm romanticizing the latter Daboll years, but the passing offense still seems a bit disjointed, does it not?

 

A lot of the success seems to come down from broken down plays that Allen has to improvise on as opposed to guys being schemed open or even the odd gadget play. I agree that a big chunk of Allen's success will depend on him just not thinking and going off-script at times but I think back to some of the games he had earlier in his career and how they made everything look so easy, even against some really good defenses.

 

Keep hoping every week that they can get things together but I don't think that's happening without a new OC. On the other hand, I think Josh is that good where he can single-handedly win you the next three games to make this point moot but I would still love to see what he could do with some fresh blood in the coaching room.

What did you need to see last week?  70% completion rate.  Targets to everyone.  No turnovers.  Counter to you broken play comment, josh average getting the ball out in less than 2.5 seconds per Joe Marino. 

 

Guys have been schemed open a lot.  Just cause you aint seeing it dont mean it aint happening.  Andy Isabella had a big one schemed for him that didnt hit cause Josh missed the pass.  Remember the Kincaid sail route against miami.  That happens cause Brady schemes it up with Diggs coming across the formation.  Heck the Kincaid shot call was per Josh Allen a game plan call (they schemed it up in the week) where they sent 3 verticals against 2 safeties cause they knew the look they would get. 

 

You present no evidence and just your feels. Sheesh.  

[GoBills808]

2 minutes ago, Low Positive said:

Should have been 34. Longer FGs in the cold are not gimmies, but kicks under 30 yards should not be missed.

dunno bout that

 

NFLaverage for 49 yard FGs is like 75%

2 minutes ago, FireChans said:

WR WR with first two picks next year please and thank you. 

yes

[Logic]

The thing that stands out to me is that our passing offense simply looks to be "behind the times".

When I look at the passing offenses of Sean McVay, Matt LaFleur, Kyle Shanahan, Mike McDaniel, Bobby Slowik -- so, basically, all of the Shanahan coaching tree guys -- I see creativity, cheat motions, orbit actions, variety, legal pick plays, and receivers who are schemed wide open.

When I look at the passing offense of Dorsey and now Brady, I see more or less static formations, less creative personnel usage and deployment, less variety, and much less of receivers being so open that you wonder "how the heck did that happen?". To be clear, it's not that there's NONE of this stuff. This offense does, at times, show some of these things. It's just that if you watch it over the totality of a whole game, and then compare it to the Texans, Rams, Packers, etc, it just doesn't seem nearly as dynamic and modern.

I don't believe this is something that can be fixed in-season. I'm hoping the Bills do a thorough offensive coordinator search in the offseason. Let Brady interview and give his vision for the offense going forward. If he wins the job, then so be it, but don't just hand it to him. I want more modernity and creativity in the Bills offense. I want to see what Josh Allen would look like in a truly forward-thinking offense that makes life easier on him.

[YattaOkasan]

2 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

It is but we keep hitting these offensive lulls in the middle of games that allow inferior opponents to stay in the game or get back into the game. It has happened in every game since we blew out the Jets.

This week i think the lull was literally us trying not to make mistakes.  The third down check down short of the sticks with a big lead caught my eye.  As soon as they got to less than 14 points what happened.  The cut it to 11; we march down the field for a FG.  They cut it to 7 and we march down for a TD. 

 

I agree that their were lulls in the win streak that were concerning, but this offense looks to be picking up a lot of momentum going from Pats > Miami > Steelers.  

[QB Bills]

1 minute ago, Logic said:

The thing that stands out to me is that our passing offense simply looks to be "behind the times".

When I look at the passing offenses of Sean McVay, Matt LaFleur, Kyle Shanahan, Mike McDaniel, Bobby Slowik -- so, basically, all of the Shanahan coaching tree guys -- I see creativity, cheat motions, orbit actions, variety, legal pick plays, and receivers who are schemed wide open.

When I look at the passing offense of Dorsey and now Brady, I see more or less static formations, less creative personnel usage and deployment, less variety, and much less of receivers being so open that you wonder "how the heck did that happen?". To be clear, it's not that there's NONE of this stuff. This offense does, at times, show some of these things. It's just that if you watch it over the totality of a whole game, and then compare it to the Texans, Rams, Packers, etc, it just doesn't seem nearly as dynamic and modern.

I don't believe this is something that can be fixed in-season. I'm hoping the Bills do a thorough offensive coordinator search in the offseason. Let Brady interview and give his vision for the offense going forward. If he wins the job, then so be it, but don't just hand it to him. I want more modernity and creativity in the Bills offense. I want to see what Josh Allen would look like in a truly forward-thinking offense that makes life easier on him.

Exactly this. Perhaps it's just the homer in me, but I feel as though Allen has another gear that can only be gotten to consistently with a forward-thinking OC. We see glimpses of it here and there, but there's something there that is truly transcendental with him compared to anyone else I've seen at QB since I've been watching the game.

Edited January 18 by QB Bills

[YattaOkasan]

4 minutes ago, Logic said:

The thing that stands out to me is that our passing offense simply looks to be "behind the times".

When I look at the passing offenses of Sean McVay, Matt LaFleur, Kyle Shanahan, Mike McDaniel, Bobby Slowik -- so, basically, all of the Shanahan coaching tree guys -- I see creativity, cheat motions, orbit actions, variety, legal pick plays, and receivers who are schemed wide open.

When I look at the passing offense of Dorsey and now Brady, I see more or less static formations, less creative personnel usage and deployment, less variety, and much less of receivers being so open that you wonder "how the heck did that happen?". To be clear, it's not that there's NONE of this stuff. This offense does, at times, show some of these things. It's just that if you watch it over the totality of a whole game, and then compare it to the Texans, Rams, Packers, etc, it just doesn't seem nearly as dynamic and modern.

I don't believe this is something that can be fixed in-season. I'm hoping the Bills do a thorough offensive coordinator search in the offseason. Let Brady interview and give his vision for the offense going forward. If he wins the job, then so be it, but don't just hand it to him. I want more modernity and creativity in the Bills offense. I want to see what Josh Allen would look like in a truly forward-thinking offense that makes life easier on him.

I think its very difficult to fix in season (not necessarily impossible) and thats why you saw so much trouble with it early.  But we have seen pre snap motion and play action rates increase the last few weeks.  I see plenty of schemed open folks and honestly think Brady is getting into his bag at just the right time.  Heck Kincaid was schemed open for two TDs this past week.  Isabella had one drawn up for him.  Watch the all-22 with how they use Cook to uncover the middle of the field.  That stuff is there.

Edited January 18 by YattaOkasan

[folz]

This thread reminds me of the thread about Dalton Kincaid not being used properly, posted immediately after he had a 4 for 87 yard day with a 50-yard reception.

 

-We got an early lead, so we didn't have to pass as much this game.

-We did also have 179 yards rushing.

-We were milking the clock for much of the 2nd half.

 

And yet, Josh still connected with seven different receivers on the day, went 21 of 30 (70% completion), and had three passing TDs on top of his rushing TD.

We scored 31 points (with 2 missed field goals) against a good defense.

 

In Week 18, Josh threw for 359 yards, connecting with 8 different receivers, went 30 of 38 (78.9 completion %), and had 2 passing TDs (along with his two picks).

 

So, remind me again, what is the complaint?

 

 

[billsfan_34]

3 hours ago, QB Bills said:

Maybe it's just me and I'm romanticizing the latter Daboll years, but the passing offense still seems a bit disjointed, does it not?

 

A lot of the success seems to come down from broken down plays that Allen has to improvise on as opposed to guys being schemed open or even the odd gadget play. I agree that a big chunk of Allen's success will depend on him just not thinking and going off-script at times but I think back to some of the games he had earlier in his career and how they made everything look so easy, even against some really good defenses.

 

Keep hoping every week that they can get things together but I don't think that's happening without a new OC. On the other hand, I think Josh is that good where he can single-handedly win you the next three games to make this point moot but I would still love to see what he could do with some fresh blood in the coaching room.

I think we are much more balanced. Third down conversions best in the NFL and we routinely put up plenty of points to win…

3 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

Not sure if it’s ’not right’ or if it’s what they plan. A couple of weeks ago our #2 (Gabe Davis) had zero targets. This past week our new #2 (Sherfield) had zero targets. It’s hard to believe that’s by design but then again maybe Joe Brady is playing four dimensional chess. 

I think he wants to keep defenses guessing. Now they have Shakir to worry about. If Gabe comes back look for him and Diggs to be heavily involved.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

3 hours ago, QB Bills said:

Maybe it's just me and I'm romanticizing the latter Daboll years, but the passing offense still seems a bit disjointed, does it not?

 

A lot of the success seems to come down from broken down plays that Allen has to improvise on as opposed to guys being schemed open or even the odd gadget play. I agree that a big chunk of Allen's success will depend on him just not thinking and going off-script at times but I think back to some of the games he had earlier in his career and how they made everything look so easy, even against some really good defenses.

 

Keep hoping every week that they can get things together but I don't think that's happening without a new OC. On the other hand, I think Josh is that good where he can single-handedly win you the next three games to make this point moot but I would still love to see what he could do with some fresh blood in the coaching room.

We have no #2 WR. 

 

You're getting 0-0 now regularly from that position. 

 

Past that, Harty is in for a few pays and you don't see him again, Isabella got 1 target last week. 

 

This is the problem. The line is there. The QB isn't changing. You have a competent OC. There are no dependable WRs past Diggs and Shakir. 

 

This started in 2021 when Beane signed Emmanuel Sanders. That marked the end of trying to find another top-flight WR to pair with Diggs. Three seasons later and we're still in that boat. Kincaid mitigates this some, but there is no size or speed at WR. 

1 hour ago, HappyDays said:

 

It's somewhat of a myth on here that short passes are automatically available. That is not always the case. Allen failing to take profits was absolutely not the issue against the Steelers. I've watched the all-22. He was processing the field and reading the defense as well as he has all season. People on here think Cook/Kincaid/Shakir are just automatically getting open underneath... Trust me, those reads are often times covered up perfectly.

 

Against zone defense I would say the underneath options tend to be there. But defenses are playing a lot of man against us lately because they know they can get away with it... And if you watch the tape you will often times see those supposedly always open underneath options getting zero separation. If we had a true "take the top off the defense" option we would probably see more favorable looks. But with the personnel that we have it is going to be tough sledding moving the ball down the field consistently. Luckily we have one of the toughest QBs in NFL history.

AMEN - YES

[LarryMadman]

3 hours ago, QB Bills said:

Maybe it's just me and I'm romanticizing the latter Daboll years, but the passing offense still seems a bit disjointed, does it not?

 

A lot of the success seems to come down from broken down plays that Allen has to improvise on as opposed to guys being schemed open or even the odd gadget play. I agree that a big chunk of Allen's success will depend on him just not thinking and going off-script at times but I think back to some of the games he had earlier in his career and how they made everything look so easy, even against some really good defenses.

 

Keep hoping every week that they can get things together but I don't think that's happening without a new OC. On the other hand, I think Josh is that good where he can single-handedly win you the next three games to make this point moot but I would still love to see what he could do with some fresh blood in the coaching room.

Yup, as they are still using Dorseys playbook.

 

I would think the offense looks different and functions better next year should Brady be retained.

[Low Positive]

7 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Their entire WR corp is composed of first round picks

 

wideouts go in the first round for a reason

Look at the actual stats (https://www.espn.com/nfl/team/stats/_/name/bal/baltimore-ravens). They don't have a single receiver with over 1,000 yards and Odell only had 565 in 14 games. Lamar had under 4,000 yards for the season. Flowers had a nice rookie year, but the "declining" Diggs had 325 more yards than him and Davis, Kincaid, and Shakir all had more yards than the Ravens second-leading receiver in Beckham. There were a few long bombs to WRs who were single-covered down the sidelines in the Fins game so I have to assume that is the only Ravens game that Bills fans watched. If you watch them, the Ravens like always are winning with defense. 

[Starr Almighty]

10 minutes ago, folz said:

This thread reminds me of the thread about Dalton Kincaid not being used properly, posted immediately after he had a 4 for 87 yard day with a 50-yard reception.

 

-We got an early lead, so we didn't have to pass as much this game.

-We did also have 179 yards rushing.

-We were milking the clock for much of the 2nd half.

 

And yet, Josh still connected with seven different receivers on the day, went 21 of 30 (70% completion), and had three passing TDs on top of his rushing TD.

We scored 31 points (with 2 missed field goals) against a good defense.

 

In Week 18, Josh threw for 359 yards, connecting with 8 different receivers, went 30 of 38 (78.9 completion %), and had 2 passing TDs (along with his two picks).

 

So, remind me again, what is the complaint?

 

 

This is too low looking for more in the 90 range with 500 to 600 yards and 7 TDs a game

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, Low Positive said:

Look at the actual stats (https://www.espn.com/nfl/team/stats/_/name/bal/baltimore-ravens). They don't have a single receiver with over 1,000 yards and Odell only had 565 in 14 games. Lamar had under 4,000 yards for the season. Flowers had a nice rookie year, but the "declining" Diggs had 325 more yards than him and Davis, Kincaid, and Shakir all had more yards than the Ravens second-leading receiver in Beckham. There were a few long bombs to WRs who were single-covered down the sidelines in the Fins game so I have to assume that is the only Ravens game that Bills fans watched. If you watch them, the Ravens like always are winning with defense. 

That's not the question I was responding to

[Brandon]

23 minutes ago, FireChans said:

WR WR with first two picks next year please and thank you. 

 

If there was ever a year to do it,  this is it.  

 

[JohnNord]

3 hours ago, QB Bills said:

Maybe it's just me and I'm romanticizing the latter Daboll years, but the passing offense still seems a bit disjointed, does it not?

 

A lot of the success seems to come down from broken down plays that Allen has to improvise on as opposed to guys being schemed open or even the odd gadget play. I agree that a big chunk of Allen's success will depend on him just not thinking and going off-script at times but I think back to some of the games he had earlier in his career and how they made everything look so easy, even against some really good defenses.

 

Keep hoping every week that they can get things together but I don't think that's happening without a new OC. On the other hand, I think Josh is that good where he can single-handedly win you the next three games to make this point moot but I would still love to see what he could do with some fresh blood in the coaching room.

Your eyes are fooling you….

I can’t only think of one play where he improvised and that was the third down pass to Diggs.  He made something out of nothing.

 

The rest of the time Josh seemed to be in control.  I didn’t noticed this much during the game but Allen was blitzed on over 50% of his drop backs.   He either got the ball out quick or took off and ran.   This includes the 52 yd scramble and the Shakir TD - which wasn’t improvising as much as it was finding the hot read.  

34 minutes ago, Logic said:

The thing that stands out to me is that our passing offense simply looks to be "behind the times".

When I look at the passing offenses of Sean McVay, Matt LaFleur, Kyle Shanahan, Mike McDaniel, Bobby Slowik -- so, basically, all of the Shanahan coaching tree guys -- I see creativity, cheat motions, orbit actions, variety, legal pick plays, and receivers who are schemed wide open.

When I look at the passing offense of Dorsey and now Brady, I see more or less static formations, less creative personnel usage and deployment, less variety, and much less of receivers being so open that you wonder "how the heck did that happen?". To be clear, it's not that there's NONE of this stuff. This offense does, at times, show some of these things. It's just that if you watch it over the totality of a whole game, and then compare it to the Texans, Rams, Packers, etc, it just doesn't seem nearly as dynamic and modern.

I don't believe this is something that can be fixed in-season. I'm hoping the Bills do a thorough offensive coordinator search in the offseason. Let Brady interview and give his vision for the offense going forward. If he wins the job, then so be it, but don't just hand it to him. I want more modernity and creativity in the Bills offense. I want to see what Josh Allen would look like in a truly forward-thinking offense that makes life easier on him.

It’s almost a certainty they bring back Brady. 
 

Also about the cheat motions…Brady ran a perfect one with Isabella in motion during the snap.  He went around the RB attempting to catch a swing pass in the flat.  Josh threw the ball low and out of reach.  Is he catches that, it’s probably about an easy 20 yard gain.  

Edited January 18 by JohnNord

[TheBrownBear]

35 minutes ago, Logic said:

The thing that stands out to me is that our passing offense simply looks to be "behind the times".

When I look at the passing offenses of Sean McVay, Matt LaFleur, Kyle Shanahan, Mike McDaniel, Bobby Slowik -- so, basically, all of the Shanahan coaching tree guys -- I see creativity, cheat motions, orbit actions, variety, legal pick plays, and receivers who are schemed wide open.

When I look at the passing offense of Dorsey and now Brady, I see more or less static formations, less creative personnel usage and deployment, less variety, and much less of receivers being so open that you wonder "how the heck did that happen?". To be clear, it's not that there's NONE of this stuff. This offense does, at times, show some of these things. It's just that if you watch it over the totality of a whole game, and then compare it to the Texans, Rams, Packers, etc, it just doesn't seem nearly as dynamic and modern.

I don't believe this is something that can be fixed in-season. I'm hoping the Bills do a thorough offensive coordinator search in the offseason. Let Brady interview and give his vision for the offense going forward. If he wins the job, then so be it, but don't just hand it to him. I want more modernity and creativity in the Bills offense. I want to see what Josh Allen would look like in a truly forward-thinking offense that makes life easier on him.

I generally agree, but we've seen more of this stuff since Brady took the reins.  There was almost zero motion under Dorsey.  I'm guessing Brady has more of this up his sleeve, but it's hard to install late in the season.

[folz]

2 hours ago, Logic said:

The thing that stands out to me is that our passing offense simply looks to be "behind the times".

When I look at the passing offenses of Sean McVay, Matt LaFleur, Kyle Shanahan, Mike McDaniel, Bobby Slowik -- so, basically, all of the Shanahan coaching tree guys -- I see creativity, cheat motions, orbit actions, variety, legal pick plays, and receivers who are schemed wide open.

When I look at the passing offense of Dorsey and now Brady, I see more or less static formations, less creative personnel usage and deployment, less variety, and much less of receivers being so open that you wonder "how the heck did that happen?". To be clear, it's not that there's NONE of this stuff. This offense does, at times, show some of these things. It's just that if you watch it over the totality of a whole game, and then compare it to the Texans, Rams, Packers, etc, it just doesn't seem nearly as dynamic and modern.

I don't believe this is something that can be fixed in-season. I'm hoping the Bills do a thorough offensive coordinator search in the offseason. Let Brady interview and give his vision for the offense going forward. If he wins the job, then so be it, but don't just hand it to him. I want more modernity and creativity in the Bills offense. I want to see what Josh Allen would look like in a truly forward-thinking offense that makes life easier on him.

 

You did see the two TE TDs in the Wild Card game didn't you? Both wide open. Knox himself said he couldn't believe he was so wide open (by play design vs. what the defense was showing), and Kincaid said they practiced his TD all week and AJ Klein told him how cool it was to see that play translate from practice to the game.

 

Yes, we know that the offense struggled at times this year and WR separation was a bit of an issue, but the offense seems to be hitting its stride now. In the last two games, Josh has averaged 281 yards, 2.5 passing TDs, and 75% completion percentage. That's tough to do if your receivers aren't getting any separation.

 

 

1 hour ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

We have no #2 WR. 

 

You're getting 0-0 now regularly from that position. 

 

Past that, Harty is in for a few pays and you don't see him again, Isabella got 1 target last week. 

 

This is the problem. The line is there. The QB isn't changing. You have a competent OC. There are no dependable WRs past Diggs and Shakir. 

 

This started in 2021 when Beane signed Emmanuel Sanders. That marked the end of trying to find another top-flight WR to pair with Diggs. Three seasons later and we're still in that boat. Kincaid mitigates this some, but there is no size or speed at WR. 

AMEN - YES

 

You guys are way too hung up on #2 receiver. Do I expect the team to address the WR position in the off season? Yes. But you are too focused on who is catching the ball and what their supposed position is.

 

In Week 18, three players had more than 84 yards (Diggs, Shakir, Kincaid) and Josh connected with 8 different players.

In the Wild Card game, Josh connected with 7 different players, and 4 players had over 30 yards.

 

Does it really matter if, behind Stefon, it is Kincaid, Knox, Harty, Cook, Davis, or Sherfield catching the ball? It's the same number of yards whether the player is considered WR #2, WR #3, WR #4, TE #1, TE #2, etc.

 

No, we don't have a Chase/Higgins or Hill/Waddle duo (frankly, very few teams do), but we have plenty of skill players that can get the job done. Look at Kansas City. Is it a problem that TE Kelce has been their #1 or #2 receiving target for the last 6-7 years instead of a true #2 receiver? Over the last 3 games, Kincaid has averaged 77 yards per game, with one TD. Shakir has averaged over 58 yards/game over the last three, with one TD. And that is with our #2 receiver Gabe Davis out the last two games. I honestly don't care that much if my #2 WR on paper doesn't have a great stat line, if my next two targets are averaging 135 yards and 1 TD per game (combined). Add in Stef's yards and whatever Knox, Harty, and Cook add in and we are fine.

 

Again, what does it matter who is catching the ball, or what their perceived position is, if Josh is still lighting it up and we are winning?

 

Save worrying about the #2 WR for the offseason.

[LABILLBACKER]

6 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

I’m guessing that’s accurate but so is my statement on targets. The Bills passing offense is essentially ignoring the #2 WR. I’m not saying that’s good or bad, but it’s interesting to see how an offense can function with ten men. 

We ignore it because we don't have one. Love Shakir as a #3 slot guy and 86 is a bona-fide TE stud.  But no one can't convince me that if we had a legit #2, Stef's opportunities would open up. Teams are still bracketing him like crazy (even with the ribs).