Belichick without TB12

[BananaB]

He lucked into Brady but also helped  made Brady who he was. The first few Superbowls Brady was a game manager who never had the weight of a franchise on his shoulders.

 

 

[machine gun kelly]

On 1/12/2024 at 9:08 AM, Dubie54 said:

Taken as a whole Belichick's, overall record is impressive, but when you look at the one variable, (TB12) that has impacted his record, it's a little less impressive. 

 

With TB12:                                  249-75 (.769)

Without TB12, incl. Cleve.:         83-104 (.449)

 

Impossible to say how he would have fared in NE if they had not drafted TB12 in the 7th round, but one thing is for sure, he would not have had the success he has had. 

 

Great coach or great QB?

6th round buddy.  Just trying to help, not correct.  Your post is correct.  He’s an obsolete coach at this point still thinking it’s defense and a run game.

 

Hes the worst in drafting a QB and WR’s.  He’s meant to be a DC.  He just doesn’t have it anymore and the 7 teams not picking him up speaks volumes.

[T master]

On 1/12/2024 at 8:08 AM, Dubie54 said:

Taken as a whole Belichick's, overall record is impressive, but when you look at the one variable, (TB12) that has impacted his record, it's a little less impressive. 

 

With TB12:                                  249-75 (.769)

Without TB12, incl. Cleve.:         83-104 (.449)

 

Impossible to say how he would have fared in NE if they had not drafted TB12 in the 7th round, but one thing is for sure, he would not have had the success he has had. 

 

Great coach or great QB?

 

Great combo like pizza & cheese, like beer & Wings, like Buffalo Wings & Blue cheese ! One just isn't as good with out the other ... 

[Royale with Cheese]

I think it's totally reasonable to say Brady made Belicheck more than the reverse.

 

However, I still think Belicheck would have still won at least one Super Bowl with another franchise QB.

He just has had trash outside of Brady.  I think if Belicheck had a Rivers, Manning, Stafford, Brees etc....he would have gotten at least one Lombardi.

[Brand J]

4 hours ago, TheyCallMeAndy said:

He didn’t exactly have an even above average QB in the Tom-less years. 

Drew Bledsoe? Belichick went 5-11 with him in 2000, 0-2 in 2001. Tom Brady stepped in and went 14-3 his first year, same roster Bledsoe (and Belichick) had to work with. 
 

Unless you believe Drew Bledsoe wasn’t an above average QB…

[Ghost_002!]

3 hours ago, Brand J said:

Drew Bledsoe? Belichick went 5-11 with him in 2000, 0-2 in 2001. Tom Brady stepped in and went 14-3 his first year, same roster Bledsoe (and Belichick) had to work with. 
 

Unless you believe Drew Bledsoe wasn’t an above average QB…

Tom Brady wasn't Tom Brady until like his 3rd SB. The patriots went on a killer streak once Brady took over. And Drew Bledsoe was an OK QB in the end. Nobody knows that more  after Patriots fans than Buffalo fans. 

Edited February 6 by Ghost_002!

[Beast]

On 1/12/2024 at 12:33 PM, TheFunPolice said:

now do Andy Reid with and without Mahomes

Reid was pretty good without Mahomes.

[TheFunPolice]

8 minutes ago, Beast said:

Reid was pretty good without Mahomes.

 

put another way, Reid was a borderline HOF coach before Mahomes ever played a down. 

 

Reid will be seen as the true GOAT, IMO, IF (and this isn't guaranteed) he coaches until he's 71 or 72. 

 

In other words, let's compare age 72 Andy Reid to age 72 Belichick and see about win totals, etc. It's very likely that he passes Belichick to have the most playoff wins of any HC in history (he's 6 behind now). It's also likely that if Belichick is done coaching and Reid coaches another 5-6 years he will break Shula's all-time record for HC wins. He probably won't get 6 rings though, so there will be a debate. 

 

All-time HC playoff wins: Reid

All-time HC regular season wins: Reid

Coaching tree: Reid by a billion

Success without Mahomes/Brady: Reid was a top 10 in HC wins all-time without Mahomes, Belichick has done squat without Brady

SB Wins: Belichick

 

So it will be a real, robust debate, but I think the overall body of work, especially without each guy's superstar QB, is in favor of Reid. 

 

This is all of course assuming he continues to coach until he is the age Belichick is now (he's 5 years younger). 

Edited February 6 by TheFunPolice

[Gregg]

9 minutes ago, Beast said:

Reid was pretty good without Mahomes.

 

McNabb was a pretty good QB as well. 

[TheFunPolice]

7 minutes ago, Gregg said:

 

McNabb was a pretty good QB as well. 

 

McNabb was decent but not spectacular.

 

For comparison, Kirk Cousins has better stats (more yards, more TDs) and is still active and will only pad his lead on McNabb. 

 

Reid also won a lot of games with Alex Smith. Smith was so-so and largely considered a bust until he was paired with Reid and at least had some success. 

 

Alex Smith once went an entire season in KC without throwing a TD to a WR, just for reference. 

 

 

Edited February 6 by TheFunPolice

[Beast]

7 minutes ago, TheFunPolice said:

 

put another way, Reid was a borderline HOF coach before Mahomes ever played a down. 

 

Reid will be seen as the true GOAT, IMO, IF (and this isn't guaranteed) he coaches until he's 71 or 72. 

 

In other words, let's compare age 72 Andy Reid to age 72 Belichick and see about win totals, etc. It's very likely that he passes Belichick to have the most playoff wins of any HC in history (he's 6 behind now). It's also likely that if Belichick is done coaching and Reid coaches another 5-6 years he will break Shula's all-time record for HC wins. He probably won't get 6 rings though, so there will be a debate. 

 

All-time HC playoff wins: Reid

All-time HC regular season wins: Reid

Coaching tree: Reid by a billion

Success without Mahomes/Brady: Reid was a top 10 in HC wins all-time without Mahomes, Belichick has done squat without Brady

SB Wins: Belichick

 

So it will be a real, robust debate, but I think the overall body of work, especially without each guy's superstar QB, is in favor of Reid. 

 

This is all of course assuming he continues to coach until he is the age Belichick is now (he's 5 years younger). 

 

5 minutes ago, Gregg said:

 

McNabb was a pretty good QB as well. 

McNabb had a career completion percentage under 60%. He only broke a 90 QB rating for a season 3 times.

 

Bill Belichick is Walt Michaels without Tom Brady.

 

 

[TheFunPolice]

3 minutes ago, Beast said:

 

McNabb had a career completion percentage under 60%. He only broke a 90 QB rating for a season 3 times.

 

Bill Belichick is Walt Michaels without Tom Brady.

 

 

 

Plus, people are comparing the two coaches at different points in their careers. 

 

Belichick had his superstar all-time QB early in his career, whereas Reid finally got his when he was 60+ years old. 

 

I really hope Reid continues to coach until he's 71 or 72. Then let's compare Reid at 72 to Belichick at 72, where he is now. 

 

IF Reid's still active until age 72 he will hold every single statistical advantage over Belichick except (maybe) SB rings. Plus he has a pretty successful coaching tree of guys who went on to win a lot of games and even Super Bowls (including hopefully McDermott!) 

 

Belichick has Brady and a bunch of awful coaches, outside of Vrabel who did all right in Tennessee but nothing spectacular. 

Edited February 6 by TheFunPolice

[Brand J]

41 minutes ago, Ghost_002! said:

Tom Brady wasn't Tom Brady until like his 3rd SB. The patriots went on a killer streak once Brady took over. And Drew Bledsoe was an OK QB in the end. Nobody knows that more  after Patriots fans than Buffalo fans. 

Tom Brady was simply a game manager when he first took the field, true, but as a Patriots fan, I’m sure you remember the quote where your offensive coordinator said “once Tom got in the game, the offense was just different. It was like a well oiled machine.”
 

Brady hardly made mistakes, he didn’t do things to beat the team, he kept his side of the ball clean and moving, which is all you could ask from him at that point. The argument was that Belichick has never had a QB who was even “above average” and I asked what about Drew Bledsoe? Two different QBs, yet two vastly different results. 

[Beast]

28 minutes ago, TheFunPolice said:

 

Plus, people are comparing the two coaches at different points in their careers. 

 

Belichick had his superstar all-time QB early in his career, whereas Reid finally got his when he was 60+ years old. 

 

I really hope Reid continues to coach until he's 71 or 72. Then let's compare Reid at 72 to Belichick at 72, where he is now. 

 

IF Reid's still active until age 72 he will hold every single statistical advantage over Belichick except (maybe) SB rings. Plus he has a pretty successful coaching tree of guys who went on to win a lot of games and even Super Bowls (including hopefully McDermott!) 

 

Belichick has Brady and a bunch of awful coaches, outside of Vrabel who did all right in Tennessee but nothing spectacular. 

I actually believe that Joe Gibbs should be in the running when talking about best head coaches of all-time.

 

3 Super Bowl wins with 3 different QB’s in a 10 year period. Theismann, Williams and Rypien.

[Ghost_002!]

40 minutes ago, Beast said:

 

McNabb had a career completion percentage under 60%. He only broke a 90 QB rating for a season 3 times.

 

Bill Belichick is Walt Michaels without Tom Brady.

 

 

 

 

This is funny how fans pick and choose how to debate.

 

So for some BB is looked at as the great defensive mind who got lucked into Brady 

 

Andy Reid is better..well Reid is an offensive mind who wasn't thought about until he got Mahomes.

 

Besides Brady, BB has used sh*t QBs. Reid seen one SB w McNabb which at that time played like an above average QB.

 

We have seen that all thru history. A QB getting on a hot streak and making it to a SB.

 

Flacco, Jimmy G, Eli Manning, Kaepernick, I can go on. Before Mahomes, Ried wasn't seeing any rings. BB had 2 as a defensive coordinator which one of his SB game plans is in the HOF. He knows how to stop high power offenses.

 

As great as a offensive mind Reid  is, BB is that for the defense end. Who coached up alot of good defensive players into solid ones. Just as Reid has done w QBs

 

 

Can't penalized BB for having Tom Brady, if you aren't going to penalized Reid for having Mahomes, or Walsh for Montana, etc. Again i can go on..

Edited February 6 by Ghost_002!

[Beast]

3 minutes ago, Ghost_002! said:

 

 

This is funny how fans pick and choose how to debate.

 

So for some BB is looked at as the great defensive mind who got lucked into Brady 

 

Andy Reid is better..well Reid is an offensive mind who wasn't thought about until he got Mahomes.

 

Besides Brady, BB has used sh*t QBs. Reid seen one SB w McNabb which at that time played like an above average QB.

 

We have seen that all thru history. A QB getting on a hot streak and making it to a SB.

 

Flacco, Jimmy G, Eli Manning, Kaepernick, I can go on. Before Mahomes, Ried wasn't seeing any rings. BB had 2 as a defensive coordinator which one of his SB game plans is in the HOF. He knows how to stop high power offenses.

 

As great as a offensive  is, BB is that for the defense end. Who coached up alot of good defensive players into solid ones. Just as Reid has done w QBs

 

 

Can't penalized BB for having Tom Brady, if you aren't going to penalized Reid for having Mahomes, or Walsh for Montana, etc. Again i can go on..

And I said earlier Reid was successful with McNabb who had under a career 60% completion percentage.

 

Belichick won 1 playoff game in 11 years without Tom Brady.

 

I’ll repeat that….ONE GAME.

[Matt_In_NH]

On 1/12/2024 at 9:08 AM, Dubie54 said:

Great coach or great QB?

Both, end of story.  It is just ridiculous to say all you need is Tom Brady and the defense, special teams, pro personal, game day decisions, gameplans, etc and they perform like they did during those 20 years.   There is a big difference but it is not as simple as Brady/not Brady.  Correlation is not causation.  

[Ghost_002!]

41 minutes ago, Brand J said:

Tom Brady was simply a game manager when he first took the field, true, but as a Patriots fan, I’m sure you remember the quote where your offensive coordinator said “once Tom got in the game, the offense was just different. It was like a well oiled machine.”
 

Brady hardly made mistakes, he didn’t do things to beat the team, he kept his side of the ball clean and moving, which is all you could ask from him at that point. The argument was that Belichick has never had a QB who was even “above average” and I asked what about Drew Bledsoe? Two different QBs, yet two vastly different results. 

 

Tom Brady was past up repeatedly during the draft. He was a 6 round pick for a reason. He had a hungrier to get better.

 

 

Look of all the teams whom past on Mahomes? Who seen Mahomes turning into who he turned into?

Edited February 6 by Ghost_002!

[Ghost_002!]

3 minutes ago, Beast said:

And I said earlier Reid was successful with McNabb who had under a career 60% completion percentage.

 

Belichick won 1 playoff game in 11 years without Tom Brady.

 

I’ll repeat that….ONE GAME.

 

Again realize the point of their careers..before Brady..

 

BB had his Cleveland days..

Yea there was Bledsoe but again. Bills know how Bledsoe played.  And now there was jones,Newton, etc.

 

Not arguing Reid isn't a great coach. I'm arguing the way Reid and other coaches are judge. Some fans don't judge BB the same way 

 

 

What's Ried's record head to head again BB. Just for the sake of the discussion?

[Beast]

1 minute ago, Ghost_002! said:

 

Again realize the point of their careers..before Brady..

 

BB had his Cleveland days..

Yea there was Bledsoe but again. Bills know how Bledsoe played.  And now there was jones,Newton, etc.

 

Not arguing Reid isn't a great coach. I'm arguing the way Reid and other coaches are judge. Some fans don't judge BB the same way 

 

 

What's Ried's record head to head again BB. Just for the sake of the discussion?

Google it.

[Ghost_002!]

3 minutes ago, Beast said:

Google it.

 

 

Seem a little testy. Calm down killer.

[Beast]

38 minutes ago, Ghost_002! said:

 

 

Seem a little testy. Calm down killer.

Testy?

 

No, I just said google it. As in if you want to know the record, look it up. 

Edited February 6 by Beast

[Brand J]

1 hour ago, Ghost_002! said:

 

Tom Brady was past up repeatedly during the draft. He was a 6 round pick for a reason. He had a hungrier to get better.

 

 

Look of all the teams whom past on Mahomes? Who seen Mahomes turning into who he turned into?

Reason being he was athletically underwhelming, kept getting rotated out with Drew Henson at Michigan, and most importantly, it’s impossible to measure intangibles. It was a missed evaluation from all 32 clubs, but you can’t blame the teams. Tom Brady was an exception, no one saw his success coming. 
 

Mahomes had his own set of reasons for not being the #1 QB taken in the draft, but when the coach/QB discussion comes up, I’d say 70-75% of a coach’s success depends on his QB. It’s not the other way around, nor is it 50/50. Belichick, though a great defensive mind, would be nowhere near GOAT debate if Brady hadn’t lucked into his lap at pick 199 AND if Mo Lewis hadn’t ended Bledsoe’s tenure in NE.

[Einstein]

1 hour ago, Ghost_002! said:

 

What's Ried's record head to head again BB. Just for the sake of the discussion?

 

If I recall correctly, I believe he is 4-6 against Belichick.

[Einstein]

12 minutes ago, Brand J said:

Belichick, though a great defensive mind, would be nowhere near GOAT debate if Brady hadn’t lucked into his lap at pick 199

 

First SB Win: 59%, 145 yards, 1 TD

Third SB Win: 69%, 236 yards, 2 TD, 1 Fumble

Sixth SB Win: 60%, 262 yards, 0 TD, 1 INT, 1 Fumble

 

Id say Belichick carried Brady for 3 SB’s and Brady carried Belichick for 3.

 

It was a good partnership.

 

 

[hondo in seattle]

On 1/12/2024 at 6:08 AM, Dubie54 said:

Taken as a whole Belichick's, overall record is impressive, but when you look at the one variable, (TB12) that has impacted his record, it's a little less impressive. 

 

With TB12:                                  249-75 (.769)

Without TB12, incl. Cleve.:         83-104 (.449)

 

Impossible to say how he would have fared in NE if they had not drafted TB12 in the 7th round, but one thing is for sure, he would not have had the success he has had. 

 

Great coach or great QB?

 

The record doesn't prove that Belichick isn't a great coach.  It's just the reality that coaches don't suit up.  Coaches help but players play the games.

 

And what these comparative stats don't measure is how much Belichick helped Brady become Brady.  Brady's success isn't just about his precision.  It's about his ability to read defenses, process information, and make good decisions.  I don't know how much of that is due to Belichick, but I assume some of it is.  

 

If I were an owner, these are the three staff positions I'd want to fill first with superstars:  GM, HC, and opposite coordinator (if the HC is a defensive guy, I'd want a genius OC; and vice versa).  And I'd want my GM to find a superstar QB.  With those four in place, it's hard to lose.  

 

The Pats dynasty isn't all about Brady.  Belichick played a critical role.  He also played a key role in the collapse of the dynasty with his failures as a GM.  

[Brand J]

36 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

First SB Win: 59%, 145 yards, 1 TD

Third SB Win: 69%, 236 yards, 2 TD, 1 Fumble

Sixth SB Win: 60%, 262 yards, 0 TD, 1 INT, 1 Fumble

 

Id say Belichick carried Brady for 3 SB’s and Brady carried Belichick for 3.

 

It was a good partnership.

 

 

Oh yeah, never did I say every SB win was due to Brady, of course it wasn’t. But the Pats don’t make it to all those SBs if it wasn’t for Brady. His influence on the regular season and the playoffs was greater than his HC and that’s the point. Coaches can only do so much, it’s up to the players to execute and more often than not, Brady made the plays that needed to be made when he needed to make them. And his supporting cast also helped. 

[jkeerie]

1 hour ago, Brand J said:

Reason being he was athletically underwhelming, kept getting rotated out with Drew Henson at Michigan, and most importantly, it’s impossible to measure intangibles. It was a missed evaluation from all 32 clubs, but you can’t blame the teams. Tom Brady was an exception, no one saw his success coming. 
 

Mahomes had his own set of reasons for not being the #1 QB taken in the draft, but when the coach/QB discussion comes up, I’d say 70-75% of a coach’s success depends on his QB. It’s not the other way around, nor is it 50/50. Belichick, though a great defensive mind, would be nowhere near GOAT debate if Brady hadn’t lucked into his lap at pick 199 AND if Mo Lewis hadn’t ended Bledsoe’s tenure in NE.

I also believe a QBs success is dependent on his coach.  If Mahomes isn't with Reid, he'll still play like Mahomes, but would he have had such early playoff success?  Look at Stafford.  He languishes in Detroit, but wins a SB under McVay.

[Brand J]

32 minutes ago, jkeerie said:

I also believe a QBs success is dependent on his coach.  If Mahomes isn't with Reid, he'll still play like Mahomes, but would he have had such early playoff success?  Look at Stafford.  He languishes in Detroit, but wins a SB under McVay.

I’d have to lean towards “yes.” If it was a matter of simply being fortunate enough to play with two future hall of famers, we could point to his supporting cast. Last year and this year tells me it’s Mahomes. He likely would’ve thrived in whatever situation - as long as his OL was at least adequate.

Stafford was always a good player, but comparing his rosters in Detroit with the one he had in the SB, there’s no comparison. I think Stafford would’ve had just as much success as Goff in Detroit this year if we switched the QBs, because that Detroit roster is much better now than the ones he had to work with. 

[gonzo1105]

Any coach that isn't with a franchise QB isn't going to be as successful in the NFL. QB's make coaches not the other way around.

 

Look at how many QB's gave guys jobs including Tom Brady who not only kept Belichick employed but also got numerous assistants HC jobs that they failed at because they didn't have Tom Brady.

 

Adam Gase with Peyton Manning, Nathaniel Hackett with Aaron Rodgers. The list goes on and on.

[jkeerie]

12 minutes ago, Brand J said:

I’d have to lean towards “yes.” If it was a matter of simply being fortunate enough to play with two future hall of famers, we could point to his supporting cast. Last year and this year tells me it’s Mahomes. He likely would’ve thrived in whatever situation - as long as his OL was at least adequate.

Stafford was always a good player, but comparing his rosters in Detroit with the one he had in the SB, there’s no comparison. I think Stafford would’ve had just as much success as Goff in Detroit this year if we switched the QBs, because that Detroit roster is much better now than the ones he had to work with. 

I don't agree with this in full.  I do agree that a QBs success...no matter the talent...is dependent on adjutant circumstances like surrounding cast and coach.   They may be successful at winning games due to their talent, but consistently getting to the playoffs and winning needs that coach and supporting cast as well.  Tom Brady won a SB with TB but it was largely the TB defense that carried the day and Tom benefited from the offensive mind of Bruce Arians.