X’s and O’s Thread

[Simon]

I've been thinking about this some and I think the way we run option routes is one of the three things that Joe Brady can immediately tweak to make the Bills a better offense.

I don't necessarily mean we should intentionally decrease their usage (which he isn't going to do anyways) but I do think they'd be better off by being more circumspect about exactly who is running those routes. We've seen Davis have multiple issues with his choices, I like Shakir but he isn't very effective with this yet either, Harty has a limited route tree, Sherfield has no chemistry with anyone yet, etc. Diggs is really the only one with the chops for it and Kincaid has enough upside that it's probably worth the growing pains to continue asking him to do it if just to get better with Allen. Outside of those two guys I'd like to see Joe Brady really limit option routes for other guys.

[No_Matter_What]

Ok I'll bite. This is something I wanted to ask for ages, but never really found time and courage  I am from Europe, I started to watch football maybe 8 years ago, so I don't have any firsthand experience.

 

My question is - can you explain to me in reasonable detail how NFL offensive play calling works?

 

To be more specific - what happens from the end of one snap to the end of another?

 

Let's say we just gained 3 yards running. My understanding is that OC looks at his spreadsheet and chooses a call suitable (or not, if you are Dorsey ) for 2&7. What happens then?

 

I guess that OC says some code name for the call to the QB and QB tells it to players in the huddle. How does that code look like? Does it have specific words for OL (so they know blocking scheme) and each WR/TE/RB (so they know which route to run / who to block)? Or is it a single name from which everybody knows what to do? Can you provide an example?

 

Then personnel. Who decides who is going to be on the field for the snap? If OC calls something what requires 3WRs and 1TE and we had 2TEs on field previous snap, who decides which TE goes off and which extra WR goes on field? OC? Or some coach on the sideline? This is extremely confusing for me how this can be decided and executed within seconds. And even if we stay in the same personnel, who decides who replaces for example Diggs if goes off, since he just run a long route?

 

Also, once we have correct players on the field, how do they know which exact WR lines up where and which route he runs? I guess they all have to be somewhat interchangeable, how do they know who runs what? I guess that it is impossible for this to be included in the call code, so how do they know? I can understand that if we start with Diggs/Davis/Shakir/Kincaid then it could be simple who is where, but what if Harty comes in? I guess he doesn't just always run the same route which would run player he replaces.

 

And as the cherry on top, how on Earth does no huddle work? How everybody knows what to do?

 

That is pre snap. One the ball is snapped, how does it work then? Let's say it is a pass play, how does going through reads work? Is it always decided pre snap who the first read is going to be? Is it "built in" the call already, so it is basically decided by OC? Or is it up to QB and he can decide on the fly?

 

I didn't mention pre snap changes made by QB, since that is another layer and for the time being I'd be satisfied with understanding how the basics work  

 

After 8 years watching I have no idea, so I'll appreciate if you (or anybody else obviously) can explain this to me. I guess some things differ from team to team, but there are probably some basic rules which are generally accepted.

 

Thanks in advance!

Edited November 17, 2023 by No_Matter_What

[HoofHearted]

2 hours ago, No_Matter_What said:

Ok I'll bite. This is something I wanted to ask for ages, but never really found time and courage  I am from Europe, I started to watch football maybe 8 years ago, so I don't have any firsthand experience.

 

My question is - can you explain to me in reasonable detail how NFL offensive play calling works?

 

To be more specific - what happens from the end of one snap to the end of another?

 

Let's say we just gained 3 yards running. My understanding is that OC looks at his spreadsheet and chooses a call suitable (or not, if you are Dorsey ) for 2&7. What happens then?

 

I guess that OC says some code name for the call to the QB and QB tells it to players in the huddle. How does that code look like? Does it have specific words for OL (so they know blocking scheme) and each WR/TE/RB (so they know which route to run / who to block)? Or is it a single name from which everybody knows what to do? Can you provide an example?

 

Then personnel. Who decides who is going to be on the field for the snap? If OC calls something what requires 3WRs and 1TE and we had 2TEs on field previous snap, who decides which TE goes off and which extra WR goes on field? OC? Or some coach on the sideline? This is extremely confusing for me how this can be decided and executed within seconds. And even if we stay in the same personnel, who decides who replaces for example Diggs if goes off, since he just run a long route?

 

Also, once we have correct players on the field, how do they know which exact WR lines up where and which route he runs? I guess they all have to be somewhat interchangeable, how do they know who runs what? I guess that it is impossible for this to be included in the call code, so how do they know? I can understand that if we start with Diggs/Davis/Shakir/Kincaid then it could be simple who is where, but what if Harty comes in? I guess he doesn't just always run the same route which would run player he replaces.

 

And as the cherry on top, how on Earth does no huddle work? How everybody knows what to do?

 

That is pre snap. One the ball is snapped, how does it work then? Let's say it is a pass play, how does going through reads work? Is it always decided pre snap who the first read is going to be? Is it "built in" the call already, so it is basically decided by OC? Or is it up to QB and he can decide on the fly?

 

I didn't mention pre snap changes made by QB, since that is another layer and for the time being I'd be satisfied with understanding how the basics work  

 

After 8 years watching I have no idea, so I'll appreciate if you (or anybody else obviously) can explain this to me. I guess some things differ from team to team, but there are probably some basic rules which are generally accepted.

 

Thanks in advance!

There’s a lot here to work through so bear with me on this wall of text.

Call sheets are there as a tool - generally it’s there as a reminder that you like certain calls in certain situations coming into the game. What you actually call, once you get out of your scripteds, is going to be based on what the defense is actually giving you. That’s why the scripted plays are so important. Those plays are essentially being used to gain an understanding of how a defense wants to play specific sets, personnel groupings, concepts, etc. Once you’ve run through the script you now have a clear picture of what a defense is going to do the remainder of the game and can start making adjustments based on that information.

 

As far as getting a play call in there are various systems which use their own languages in order to breakdown a play. Specifically for the Bills we fall under the Erhardt-Perkins system which is a concept based system. There’s a bunch of memorization involved in the call. Basically a call, or code as you refer to it as, is broken down into a couple pieces. Let use a pass concept for example - the first piece will be the name of the formation and any motion tied to that formation - second piece the protection - and third piece the concepts. I don’t know specifically what the Bills terminology is for things, but I’d bet it’s similar to what the Patriots have used in the past for a lot of things since the foundation of our offense is built around what Brian Daboll brought here.
 

So as a real life example let’s say you are in 10p and want to run some type of flood concept you could call - Spread Rt Strong (formation) 72 (protection) Ghost Tosser (Strong side and weak side concepts). What’s really nice about this system is that the concepts are the concepts and you can teach them holistically. So the #1 receiver will always run a vertical in Ghost (doesn’t matter who it ends up being), the #2 will run a Sail, and the #3 an arrow. So in the example provided it’s a true 2x2 set with the #1 receiver to the strong side running a Vertical, #2 running a Sail, and #3 is the RB running an arrow out of the backfield. Backside you have double slants (Tosser).

 

Lets say you want to take that same concept but now run it out of a 21p set. Well now you can go 0 Near Slot (Formation) Hat (motion) 72 (protection) Ghost Tosser. 0 Near Slot gets you into a 2x1 formation with twins to one side and a nub tight end to the backside with a near I set in the backfield. Hat motions your RB out wide to the nub tight end side of the formation and then you run the concept as called from there. So now the RB is running the vertical, the tight end is running the sail, and the FB is running the arrow.

 

It’s really nice because you don’t have to have calls that are 1,000 words long like in other systems which breakdown the responsibility of each player within their calls. It is, however, a lot of memorization on the players part.

 

Personnel packages are always tagged with names. Again, it’s another thing that just needs to be memorized. Substitutions follow your depth chart. More often than not your receivers specialize either outside or inside receiver since they can vary drastically in what is asked of them, but ultimately it becomes who’s the next best available that knows the position. There’s plans in place made throughout the week with how to handle substitutions but ultimately it falls on the position coaches to get the right guys out there given the situation.

 

Personnel will always be determined prior to play call.

 

No huddle is the same concept as getting a play in. Typically your no huddle or 2 minute offense playbook is limited in the number of things you can run, but they’re typically called by the QB with one word or phrase that defines the formation, protection, and concept.

 

Post-snap each concept has its own read progression. This could be a receiver progression or reading a defender or multiple defenders based on what the concept is. For example, when we run mesh it follows a receiver read progression for the most part. On Deep Choice you’re reading a defender and throwing based off of what that defender does post-snap.

 

Hope this helps, and if I need to clarify anything please let me know.

[Buffalo716]

7 hours ago, No_Matter_What said:

Ok I'll bite. This is something I wanted to ask for ages, but never really found time and courage  I am from Europe, I started to watch football maybe 8 years ago, so I don't have any firsthand experience.

 

My question is - can you explain to me in reasonable detail how NFL offensive play calling works?

 

To be more specific - what happens from the end of one snap to the end of another?

 

Let's say we just gained 3 yards running. My understanding is that OC looks at his spreadsheet and chooses a call suitable (or not, if you are Dorsey ) for 2&7. What happens then?

 

I guess that OC says some code name for the call to the QB and QB tells it to players in the huddle. How does that code look like? Does it have specific words for OL (so they know blocking scheme) and each WR/TE/RB (so they know which route to run / who to block)? Or is it a single name from which everybody knows what to do? Can you provide an example?

 

Then personnel. Who decides who is going to be on the field for the snap? If OC calls something what requires 3WRs and 1TE and we had 2TEs on field previous snap, who decides which TE goes off and which extra WR goes on field? OC? Or some coach on the sideline? This is extremely confusing for me how this can be decided and executed within seconds. And even if we stay in the same personnel, who decides who replaces for example Diggs if goes off, since he just run a long route?

 

Also, once we have correct players on the field, how do they know which exact WR lines up where and which route he runs? I guess they all have to be somewhat interchangeable, how do they know who runs what? I guess that it is impossible for this to be included in the call code, so how do they know? I can understand that if we start with Diggs/Davis/Shakir/Kincaid then it could be simple who is where, but what if Harty comes in? I guess he doesn't just always run the same route which would run player he replaces.

 

And as the cherry on top, how on Earth does no huddle work? How everybody knows what to do?

 

That is pre snap. One the ball is snapped, how does it work then? Let's say it is a pass play, how does going through reads work? Is it always decided pre snap who the first read is going to be? Is it "built in" the call already, so it is basically decided by OC? Or is it up to QB and he can decide on the fly?

 

I didn't mention pre snap changes made by QB, since that is another layer and for the time being I'd be satisfied with understanding how the basics work  

 

After 8 years watching I have no idea, so I'll appreciate if you (or anybody else obviously) can explain this to me. I guess some things differ from team to team, but there are probably some basic rules which are generally accepted.

 

Thanks in advance!

https://www.bloggingtheboys.com/2013/6/4/4393140/cowboys-new-offensive-scheme-the-erhardt-perkins-system

 

Everything he explained is exactly in this article 

 

Including both ghost/tosser concepts word for word  

 

But to be short and simple , the EP... Which the bills use is a verbage system

 

It's a lot shorter and more condensed than the wordsy West Coast verbiage system and allows for quicker communication and grouped by concepts 

 

While the West Coast system could have a 25 word call... Way more complex 

Edited November 17, 2023 by Buffalo716

[Big Turk]

23 hours ago, HoofHearted said:

We HAVE to win the LoS. Specifically, early on we’ll need to be able to run the ball off tackle. Against the Jets I’d expect some type of Buck or Pin & Pull schemes to accomplish this. I don’t think we’d have a chance to be successful just trying to run outside zone. We also need to be able to attack the perimeter in the pass game early on using flat screens and RPOs. Anything to get the interior of their DL moving sideline to sideline and wear them down. If we can successfully do that it opens up our play action game off of that action which should allow Kincaid to get going. Jets play like us defensively - they’re not going to give up the deep ball and they’re good at playing tight underneath. Change of strength motions and shifts would be big to get them having to communicate and make checks right before the snap but with a short week I’m not sure how much of that to expect because I have no clue how much of that is currently built in to the system. We need to make a conscious effort to motion Diggs away from Sauce as much as we can to get him going. Still think Deep Choice will be a big part of what we do.

The easy answer is different systems specialize in different things, but on top of that how a defense is playing you will dictate what concepts you want to use to attack teams. Pros and cons depend on how the defense is playing you.

 

Did the Bills go away from running mostly gap scheme like they were earlier in the year when they started out running well?  Seems every time they struggle to run the ball it's because of their near obsession with more zone schemed runs which this team has shown a complete inability to run well consistently over 4 years.

[HoofHearted]

15 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

Did the Bills go away from running mostly gap scheme like they were earlier in the year when they started out running well?  Seems every time they struggle to run the ball it's because of their near obsession with more zone schemed runs which this team has shown a complete inability to run well consistently over 4 years.

I’ll have a post probably next week about our run game this season - got three more games to breakdown, but we’ve still been running gap schemes. Ran Dart a ton against Denver. Also, there’s a lot of misinformation being spread about our zone schemes and running out of gun/under center.

[Big Turk]

1 minute ago, HoofHearted said:

I’ll have a post probably next week about our run game this season - got three more games to breakdown, but we’ve still been running gap schemes. Ran Dart a ton against Denver. Also, there’s a lot of misinformation being spread about our zone schemes and running out of gun/under center.

 

Was talking more about the previous 3-4 games where we struggled to run well.  I think TB we ran pretty well, Denver we crushed the running game with both RBs averaging over 7.5 YPB and Cook almost at 10 YPC. The other games not so much...was that just not a great day at the office for the OLine blocking more than difference in zone/gap scheme runs?

[HoofHearted]

5 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

Was talking more about the previous 3-4 games where we struggled to run well.  I think TB we ran pretty well, Denver we crushed the running game with both RBs averaging over 7.5 YPB and Cook almost at 10 YPC. The other games not so much...was that just not a great day at the office for the OLine blocking more than difference in zone/gap scheme runs?

I’ll be able to give you a better answer after I get through all the games. Think I’ve done through the New England game so far.

1 hour ago, Buffalo716 said:

https://www.bloggingtheboys.com/2013/6/4/4393140/cowboys-new-offensive-scheme-the-erhardt-perkins-system

 

Everything he explained is exactly in this article 

 

Including both ghost/tosser concepts word for word  

 

But to be short and simple , the EP... Which the bills use is a verbage system

 

It's a lot shorter and more condensed than the wordsy West Coast verbiage system and allows for quicker communication and grouped by concepts 

 

While the West Coast system could have a 25 word call... Way more complex 

From a player standpoint West Coast is easier because everything is spelled out for each player within the call.

Edited November 17, 2023 by HoofHearted

[Buffalo716]

4 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

I’ll be able to give you a better answer after I get through all the games. Think I’ve done through the New England game so far.

From a player standpoint West Coast is easier because everything is spelled out for each player within the call.

Yeah but you know it's a pain for some quarterbacks to get out 

 

Especially within the play clock

 

The EP is supposed to speed up the process but for some reason the bills get to the line with the play clock winding down a bit

Edited November 17, 2023 by Buffalo716

[HoofHearted]

Just now, Buffalo716 said:

Yeah but you know it's a pain for some quarterbacks to get out 

 

Especially within the play clock

Yeah, it’s a mouthful. Tbh I don’t understand why everyone hasn’t gone the EP route. That’s pretty much all you see at the college level these days. Players are use to it.

[Buffalo716]

Just now, HoofHearted said:

Yeah, it’s a mouthful. Tbh I don’t understand why everyone hasn’t gone the EP route. That’s pretty much all you see at the college level these days. Players are use to it.

Agree

 

Except when you hear a master at spitting out west coast verbiage... It is a beautiful language lol

[No_Matter_What]

@HoofHearted @Buffalo716 Thanks for your responses, very helpful. I'll get back to you on some things next week when I'll have a little bit more time.

[HoofHearted]

On 11/16/2023 at 9:53 PM, EmotionallyUnstable said:

- presnap formations, reads, philosophy and purposes behind them

when we line up in specific personnel or formations, what advantages those particular looks might be trying to gain, what Allen and company might be looking for when they come out in a certain look…for example, Bills come out with their 6 OL look. What advantages might they be looking at exploiting? What might the OC or QB be looking at that makes them want this look, or getting them into a certain play within that personnel grouping. These I imagine are very match up specificZ

 

- route concepts vs specific coverages we see

I have enjoyed reading your breakdowns of the deep choice and other concepts (split field, 2 man concepts, RPO) and what we are trying to read or take advantage of. More of that would be appreciated 

 

- run schemes

What defensive alignments might be enticing the bills to not run as much as I believe they should be vs the looks they’re getting. How are those previously mentioned formations affecting what were doing? One thing I noticed Dorsey do a lot is motion gabe into the IOL and have him block. What are they trying to accomplish here, muddy the waters? 

 

Defensively

- coverages and how specific drops/alignments/techniques are tells

I love trying to decipher coverages presnap. I know it’s very difficult from the broadcast angle. Often I’ll look to leverages DBs are using (ex. CB on #1 playing outside leverage think C2) tips and tells like that, or techniques post snap (like the man 7 info you shared) and how to better get an idea of what coverages teams are trying to play

 

- pressure packages/blitz concepts…specifically how they relate to coverages

I think this one is more so match up specific. What games (ex. TEX) might McD look to exploit vs a specific team/QB/OL? What do those particular rushes or blitzes attempt to do and why might they want to utilize them (overloads, simulated pressures, cover 0, etc)

 

- pash rushing techniques from the interior 

I love watching the big uglies on the snap. It often is my focus post snap. What are some of the better techniques you see from successful rushes within our our scheme? It seems like guys have the most success jumping gaps, swim moves, etc but also leads to issues with lane integrity. How can we know if these are predetermined slants or rushes, or are guys going a bit rouge? 

 

- specific strengths of our personnel 

What would you say is a strength of a particular player (ex Ed does best playing 3T with a 1 gap responsibility) 

How might these strengths effect what we want to do, or are conversely limited to do, on defense?

 

I don’t anticipate answers to these specifics. 
They’re just  some of the things that I watch or wonder that if like to know more about. I appreciate your willingness to share your knowledge and explain terminology, concepts, schemes, etc. 

Think what I’ll do with this is choose a couple plays from the most recent game (once A22 drops) and break those down.

[HoofHearted]

@EmotionallyUnstable Here we go. This is the first third down of the game in the RedZone after the turnover. Bills come out in Empty and Jets show a 0 blitz pre-snap. Bills are running a Chair concept to the Field and a Switch Vertical concept to the Boundary. This is a fairly common man beater concept that's run in RedZone areas to isolate the #3 receiver man to man on a DB playing inside leverage on him. The Jets drop into what I call Special coverage which is a Quarters coverage variant. The defense will lock the #1 receiver (Kincaid) man to man with the nickel and safety playing Quarters coverage on the #2 (Shakir) and #3 (Diggs) receivers to the trips side. Josh correctly slid protection to the pressure side, saw the drop of the Linebacker (#57), and diagnosed they weren't in man coverage. He moved his eyes to the boundary side looking at Gabe to try and pull the Safety (#22) toward him to open a window to hit Diggs on the Corner, but as he comes back with his eyes he sees the Nickel (#26) dropping with the vertical of Diggs and has to pull down the pump. At that point the play is dead and Josh has worked himself outside of the pocket in his drop and no longer has a lane to step up or try to escape and ultimately takes the sack.

 

The subtle tell to know they aren't in man here is that the Nickel (#26) is playing outside leverage pre-snap on Shakir. If it was man across the board all of the DBs to that trips side would be playing inside leverage.

 

[EmotionallyUnstable]

20 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

@EmotionallyUnstable Here we go. This is the first third down of the game in the RedZone after the turnover. Bills come out in Empty and Jets show a 0 blitz pre-snap. Bills are running a Chair concept to the Field and a Switch Vertical concept to the Boundary. This is a fairly common man beater concept that's run in RedZone areas to isolate the #3 receiver man to man on a DB playing inside leverage on him. The Jets drop into what I call Special coverage which is a Quarters coverage variant. The defense will lock the #1 receiver (Kincaid) man to man with the nickel and safety playing Quarters coverage on the #2 (Shakir) and #3 (Diggs) receivers to the trips side. Josh correctly slid protection to the pressure side, saw the drop of the Linebacker (#57), and diagnosed they weren't in man coverage. He moved his eyes to the boundary side looking at Gabe to try and pull the Safety (#22) toward him to open a window to hit Diggs on the Corner, but as he comes back with his eyes he sees the Nickel (#26) dropping with the vertical of Diggs and has to pull down the pump. At that point the play is dead and Josh has worked himself outside of the pocket in his drop and no longer has a lane to step up or try to escape and ultimately takes the sack.

 

The subtle tell to know they aren't in man here is that the Nickel (#26) is playing outside leverage pre-snap on Shakir. If it was man across the board all of the DBs to that trips side would be playing inside leverage.

 

To the boundary, how to you figure they sorted through the stack of 4/13? Are their quarters coverage responsibilities predetermined to the boundary in this formation (lock?) or did the routes dictate which defender took each quarter? We’re they essentially playing man based off the formation to the boundary due to empty? 

 

With 57 dropping in zone, would you preferred Allen to have worked the boundary side?

 

I could consume and discuss this kind of stuff all day. Phenomenal post. Thank you very much for the time and effort. 
 

One more question:

 

What might have Allen keyed on to know that the pressure was coming from 56 and not 57? Is there something here in alignment, or possibly tendencies we can’t see on the tape, that made him slide right? 

Edited November 21, 2023 by EmotionallyUnstable

[HoofHearted]

8 minutes ago, EmotionallyUnstable said:

To the boundary, how to you figure they sorted through the stack of 4/13? Are their quarters coverage responsibilities predetermined to the boundary in this formation (lock?) or did the routes dictate which defender took each quarter? We’re they essentially playing man based off the formation to the boundary due to empty? 

 

With 57 dropping in zone, would you preferred Allen to have worked the boundary side?

 

I could consume and discuss this kind of stuff all day. Phenomenal post. Thank you very much for the time and effort. 

Lock is just true man coverage backside. They can tag whatever they want backside, but usually you have a zone option and a man option that could be called. The zone option in the scenario would have likely been Cover 2 based on the splits of the backside receivers. This is tagged with the call. As far as #57 dropping into zone, it still didn't tell Allen what type of zone it was - could have very easily been Cover 2 to the field at that point (which is what I assume he thought it was based on him trying to look off the Safety and come back to it). Perfect scenario he recognizes the coverage pre-snap and throws it to Kincaid who's 1 on 1 with a corner, but the Jets did a really good job in their disguise and had a good call for what we had called.

Edited November 21, 2023 by HoofHearted

[EmotionallyUnstable]

28 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

Lock is just true man coverage backside. They can tag whatever they want backside, but usually you have a zone option and a man option that could be called. The zone option in the scenario would have likely been Cover 2 based on the splits of the backside receivers. This is tagged with the call. As far as #57 dropping into zone, it still didn't tell Allen what type of zone it was - could have very easily been Cover 2 to the field at that point (which is what I assume he thought it was based on him trying to look off the Safety and come back to it). Perfect scenario he recognizes the coverage pre-snap and throws it to Kincaid who's 1 on 1 with a corner, but the Jets did a really good job in their disguise and had a good call for what we had called.

Would Special be a check? A team would be in quarters and then adjust to the formation when they see we have our 3 WR set to the field?

Edited November 21, 2023 by EmotionallyUnstable

[HoofHearted]

33 minutes ago, EmotionallyUnstable said:

Would Special be a check? A team would be in quarters and then adjust to the formation when they see we have our 3 WR set to the field?

In this case it was more than likely a check based on where our personnel were (Diggs in the 3 hole), but from a scheme standpoint it could be called or be a check based off formation or personnel.

[Billzgobowlin]

The thing that bothered me most of the offense before this week was Gabe Davis.  His skills didn't see to disappear as much as he always seemed to be in the wrong position.  For example the random Intentional grounding from a couple of games ago.  I would even say the INT that went through his hands he didn't seem to be where he needed.  Do you believe that's on Josh, Gabe or Dorsey?  I don't remember him having this same issue two years ago.

[Big Turk]

Seems like Linval Joseph is really having a major impact on the run D...Bills have only allowed 3.1 YPC since he has been here. Have you noticed anything on tape that stands out other than him occupying double teams and being an immovable object in the middle of the line? I have seen Bernard appearing like Flash Gordon in the backfield like he was shot out of a cannon on several plays over the last few weeks to make TFL's to the point I am like where the hell did he come from?

[HoofHearted]

Just now getting to the Jets film. Watched the first half and there's some really cool things McDermott did with personnel and pressure packages. I'll post diagrams and more detail tomorrow at some point. Offense through the first half didn't look much different as far as scheme is concerned from what we've been doing. Only real difference was the window dressing with the motions. Used change of strength motions quite a bit to get favorable matchups - targeted the linebackers in particular which was really nice to see.

[HappyDays]

38 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

Offense through the first half didn't look much different as far as scheme is concerned from what we've been doing. Only real difference was the window dressing with the motions. Used change of strength motions quite a bit to get favorable matchups - targeted the linebackers in particular which was really nice to see.

 

Cover1's latest video claims that Brady's sequencing of route progressions is more fluid than Dorsey's. As in when Josh goes from progression 1 to 2 to 3, the route he looks at next is flashing into his vision at the exact right time, whereas with Dorsey it was more all over the place which led to timing issues. Do you agree with this having watched the Jets film?

 

100% agree that motions made all the difference in this one. I think Josh is one of the best QBs in the league at properly identifying leverage in coverage players and choosing his throw accordingly. If he sees your hips turned even an inch in the wrong direction, you've already lost. I felt that motions in this game gave him clear leverage identifiers that he took full advantage of. Good example of what I mean on this play:

 

I may of course just be talking out of my ass here 😁

 

Edited November 22, 2023 by HappyDays

[HoofHearted]

7 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

Cover1's latest video claims that Brady's sequencing of route progressions is more fluid than Dorsey's. As in when Josh goes from progression 1 to 2 to 3, the route he looks at next is flashing into his vision at the exact right time, whereas with Dorsey it was more all over the place which led to timing issues. Do you agree with this having watched the Jets film?

 

100% agree that motions made all the difference in this one. I think Josh is one of the best QBs in the league at properly identifying leverage in coverage players and choosing his throw accordingly. If he sees your hips turned even an inch in the wrong direction, you've already lost. I felt that motions in this game gave him clear leverage identifiers that he took full advantage of. Good example of what I mean on this play:

 

I may of course just be talking out of my ass here 😁

 

I’ve only made it through the first half but so far every concept I saw we’ve run before so not sure what he’s referring to.

[Coach Tuesday]

6 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

I’ve only made it through the first half but so far every concept I saw we’ve run before so not sure what he’s referring to.

You refer to the motion as “window dressing” but from what I could tell, they were actually using the information they got from the defense as a result of it, which seemed to be an issue under Dorsey.

[HoofHearted]

6 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

You refer to the motion as “window dressing” but from what I could tell, they were actually using the information they got from the defense as a result of it, which seemed to be an issue under Dorsey.

That wasn’t meant to infer that it didn’t have purpose. We used CoS motions to great effect to get favorable matchups or pull backers out of the box. It also caused confusion multiple times as they didn’t know whether to bump their nickel into the box and bump the backers or whether to carry the nickel across and flip the backers (this is ultimately what they started doing). We used motions out of the backfield to identify coverages as well as to widen backers and open up pass lanes in the middle of the field.

 

My point was the concepts didn’t change from what Dorsey was running, we just dressed them up to make them more effective.

 

EDIT: And to be fair to Dorsey when he did use motions he did it intelligently and with purpose. He just didn’t do it often enough imo.

Edited November 22, 2023 by HoofHearted

[34-78-83]

From the stands, on the 81 Yd TD play to Shakir, it appeared to be quite an impressive "baiting" of the Jets defense by Allen. They moved Diggs into the slot and I feel like the Jets thought they had us with a gotcha! It wasn't Sauce in coverage across from Diggs and it sure seemed like they wanted to bait us into a throw over in that direction into their zone, where they'd likely have 2 guys near the throw with a chance to make a play. Instead, post snap, Josh takes an extended look in that direction, then looks at Kincaid quickly (who opened up the seam for Shakir) then right over to Shakir with the strike, and the gotcha! came in our favor. Great manipulation (I thought) by Josh on the play. I wonder also how much prep goes into a play like that between QB and OC or if its just where Josh is in his game right now. Thoughts, @HoofHearted ?

[HappyDays]

2 hours ago, HoofHearted said:

My point was the concepts didn’t change from what Dorsey was running, we just dressed them up to make them more effective.

 

Kurt Warner posted this video yesterday:

 

 

He has been saying that Dorsey was not the problem and didn't agree with him being fired. So in this video he tries to show how our offense against the Jets was exactly the same which to him is proof that Dorsey was not the problem.

 

But interestingly he kind of accidentally shows that Brady's offense is not the same. Same concepts but dressed up more, like you said. It's almost bizarre how Kurt Warner glosses over some of that stuff in this video. On one play he fails to point out that a Diggs motion against the Jets made Kincaid a lot more wide open than he was in a similar play against the Broncos. He compares a true mesh against the Broncos to a fake mesh against the Jets but to me those concepts created entirely different passing windows to Cook in the example plays he shows.

 

If you get a chance to watch this 10 minute video I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.

[BADOLBILZ]

40 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Kurt Warner posted this video yesterday:

 

 

He has been saying that Dorsey was not the problem and didn't agree with him being fired. So in this video he tries to show how our offense against the Jets was exactly the same which to him is proof that Dorsey was not the problem.

 

But interestingly he kind of accidentally shows that Brady's offense is not the same. Same concepts but dressed up more, like you said. It's almost bizarre how Kurt Warner glosses over some of that stuff in this video. On one play he fails to point out that a Diggs motion against the Jets made Kincaid a lot more wide open than he was in a similar play against the Broncos. He compares a true mesh against the Broncos to a fake mesh against the Jets but to me those concepts created entirely different passing windows to Cook in the example plays he shows.

 

If you get a chance to watch this 10 minute video I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.

 

 

Joe got some guys wide open a couple times.    But Dorsey had been getting guys "NFL open" regularly though.    And Warner was a guy who carved up "NFL open".   We forget just how bad the execution by the players has been the past couple months.   In this Jets game the fumbles got recovered,  and the "yikes" throws didn't get intercepted by Sauce and Reed on the Bills side of the field etc..  But the offense still had plenty of the same issues.    It was a couple thisclose plays away from being a standard 22 point Dorsey game in recent weeks.    So I tend to agree with Kurt here.   

[Allen2Moulds]

31 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Joe got some guys wide open a couple times.    But Dorsey had been getting guys "NFL open" regularly though.    And Warner was a guy who carved up "NFL open".   We forget just how bad the execution by the players has been the past couple months.   In this Jets game the fumbles got recovered,  and the "yikes" throws didn't get intercepted by Sauce and Reed on the Bills side of the field etc..  But the offense still had plenty of the same issues.    It was a couple thisclose plays away from being a standard 22 point Dorsey game in recent weeks.    So I tend to agree with Kurt here.   

Warner has always been very critical of Allen and his style of play. All the video shows to me, is look...these are still the same routes. However, Warner fails to address the little tweaks that Brady made, to create better passing windows. Everyone also appeared to be in better sync. Spacing and timing go hand and hand. With Dorsey that seemed to be a little off. Over simplification by Warner if you ask me.

[BADOLBILZ]

49 minutes ago, Allen2Moulds said:

Warner has always been very critical of Allen and his style of play. All the video shows to me, is look...these are still the same routes. However, Warner fails to address the little tweaks that Brady made, to create better passing windows. Everyone also appeared to be in better sync. Spacing and timing go hand and hand. With Dorsey that seemed to be a little off. Over simplification by Warner if you ask me.

 

 

Perhaps but it's an over-reaction from Bills fans though if you ask me.    Decent game.   Some nice changes.   It's not like Dorsey never made any changes in 2 years though.   And he was running an offense that didn't punt the ball for like a month at one point last year.   He had to adjust his offense for Josh not being able to make short throws after his UCL injury.    He made the changes everyone applauded in the Tampa game.   He showed some identifiable flaws and looked green as a play caller at times but so did Joe Brady in Carolina.   

 

I sit about 10 rows down from the OC box.   After the game there were just a few of us left and one guy was yelling and gesturing thumbs up to Brady and wondering why he didn't respond back even though he clearly heard/saw him.    I told him the facts.........because he has been there and he knows he will be getting his turn over the open flames soon enough and he isn't going to acknowledge it then either.    That's the nature of the job.

 

Hopefully they build off this performance but I didn't come away from 3 quarters of having to settle for field goals against an opponent you know they've been itching for revenge against for months thinking that was a revelation of an offensive performance.    This team under McD just always runs into these mid-season ruts each year and this year's has been particularly damaging and threatened to turn the season into a waste.   The change was necessary for the frame of mind of the team more than anything else.

[HoofHearted]

2 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

Kurt Warner posted this video yesterday:

 

 

He has been saying that Dorsey was not the problem and didn't agree with him being fired. So in this video he tries to show how our offense against the Jets was exactly the same which to him is proof that Dorsey was not the problem.

 

But interestingly he kind of accidentally shows that Brady's offense is not the same. Same concepts but dressed up more, like you said. It's almost bizarre how Kurt Warner glosses over some of that stuff in this video. On one play he fails to point out that a Diggs motion against the Jets made Kincaid a lot more wide open than he was in a similar play against the Broncos. He compares a true mesh against the Broncos to a fake mesh against the Jets but to me those concepts created entirely different passing windows to Cook in the example plays he shows.

 

If you get a chance to watch this 10 minute video I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.

I mean he’s not wrong. It’s the same scheme, but we knew it was going to be the same scheme. Dorsey wasn’t fired because of the scheme - he was fired because he was told to fix the execution issues and they never got fixed. If you can’t get players to respond to coaching then you lose your job - it is what it is.

[Buffalo Bills Fan]

https://buffalonews.com/sports/professional/nfl/bills/jim-kubiak-what-we-learned-and-liked-about-joe-bradys-debut-as-play-caller/article_5299cdda-8884-11ee-ab90-4fce29bde559.html

 

Conclusion

The story of this game was always going to be about Brady's debut. Statistically speaking, Dorsey had an excellent run this season.

Next to scoring, the most important area is turnovers. For some reason, Allen had been plagued with turnovers and this was crippling the high-octane and healthy Bills offense. 

In this game, Brady demonstrated a couple of differences between he and Dorsey:

• Brady didn’t use RPOs the way that Dorsey liked to. Instead, he married a pass to a quarterback run. I liked that adjustment because it makes things more clear and easier for the quarterback.

• Brady tried to get the ball to Diggs, but not at all costs, and when necessary Brady used Diggs more effectively as a decoy as seen in the fourth-and-1 touchdown pass, the touchdown pass to Cook in the flat, and the touchdown pass to Johnson inside the 5-yard line.

• The running game was more effective as the Bills rushed the ball 38-times out of 71 total plays for 130 yards against a talented Jets’ defense. This combination asked Allen to do less, as it should be. 

Allen’s first two touchdown passes were wide-open throws into the flat that were due to outstanding strategic planning. His third touchdown was the result of a vertical concept against a three-deep zone and a laser throw that only he can make. 

The Bills’ offense had turned the ball over 13 times in the previous six games. In those same six games, the Bills lost the turnover differential in five and tied once. This was the first game since the Dolphins’ victory in Week 4 that the Bills protected the football better than their opponent. Allen and the Bills have won every single game in which they have won the turnover differential. 

 

Just wondering what you think of Jim Kubiak thoughts?

 

Of course way more but behind a paywall. He talks about the marriage concept.

Edited November 22, 2023 by Buffalo Bills Fan

[Dukestreetking]

20 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

I sit about 10 rows down from the OC box.   After the game there were just a few of us left and one guy was yelling and gesturing thumbs up to Brady and wondering why he didn't respond back even though he clearly heard/saw him.

Just quick aside Bado: some poster, I think on the PoGT, said he witnessed this exchange, and that Brady was smiling and gave acknowledgement. No idea, maybe different moments...

[HoofHearted]

6 minutes ago, Buffalo Bills Fan said:

Brady didn’t use RPOs the way that Dorsey liked to. Instead, he married a pass to a quarterback run. I liked that adjustment because it makes things more clear and easier for the quarterback.

Not sure what he's referring to here, but I assume it was the QB Draw that was dead to rights that Josh tried to pull up on and look for a pass option. That's not an RPO, just Josh trying to make a play. We ran a couple RPOs and they were the same as what we've been doing. Like I've said - we ran the same concepts as we have all year - we just dressed them up to take advantage of some match-ups better than we have in the past.

[HoofHearted]

13:37 mark of the A22 film we line up in a Tite front and confused the Jets protection by doing so. They went half-slide to the field which gave Bernard a 1v1 against their RB in protection. The back wasn't disciplined enough in his rules "scan inside out" and immediately worked out to our walked up linebacker outside (Dodson) and Bernard was unblocked leading to the sack.

 

 

At the 22:22 mark we line up in the same Tite front but this time with 5 DL - the Jets set their half slide protection to the boundary this time anticipating the same blitz - but instead we run a Pirate game with Rousseau who ends up drawing the 1v1 with the RB as he scan protects across and allows Bernard to add in to the rush to get the sack.

 

 

At the 36:28 mark we show double A gap pressure to an empty set (we've seen this before). What caught my attention was our use of personnel. Instead of using backers to mug the A gaps we used our defensive ends and had our backers coming off the edge. This caught the eye of the Jets as they worked a full slide to the field in order to account for the double A gap pressure which made Wilson responsible for the free rusher. Poyer took a bad angle (didn't aim upfield shoulder of the QB) and he was able to escape by spinning out of the pressure, but it was a really intelligent use of personnel to ensure we got our best athlete unblocked on the rush.

 

 

There were some simulated pressures as well throughout the game where we forced the Jets to set protection one way only to drop those players out and bring overloaded pressures from the opposite side of the field. I really wanted to bring these specifically to light because McDermott gets a ton of flak for his pressure packages when he puts on a master class of dialing up pressures to attack protections and guarantee 1v1 match-ups with RBs (and more often than not getting 2v1 on a RB) in order to win in these scenarios.

[HoofHearted]

4 hours ago, 34-78-83 said:

From the stands, on the 81 Yd TD play to Shakir, it appeared to be quite an impressive "baiting" of the Jets defense by Allen. They moved Diggs into the slot and I feel like the Jets thought they had us with a gotcha! It wasn't Sauce in coverage across from Diggs and it sure seemed like they wanted to bait us into a throw over in that direction into their zone, where they'd likely have 2 guys near the throw with a chance to make a play. Instead, post snap, Josh takes an extended look in that direction, then looks at Kincaid quickly (who opened up the seam for Shakir) then right over to Shakir with the strike, and the gotcha! came in our favor. Great manipulation (I thought) by Josh on the play. I wonder also how much prep goes into a play like that between QB and OC or if its just where Josh is in his game right now. Thoughts, @HoofHearted ?

Josh definitely wanted to go to Diggs initially (he had a 1v1 with a linebacker), recognized it was Hole coverage and knew that the backside double Posts would beat the Cover 3 look as Kincaid was running the collector route (inside post to occupy the Safety) and Shakir would have inside leverage on an in-breaking route vs the corner. Just good recognition and a great job going through his progressions - understanding the coverage and what we were doing offensively that would attack that coverage.

 

Also want to shout out Diggs and Davis on the earlier touchdowns. Neither of them had the sexy stat line, but they both did a lot of the dirty work. Diggs picked Mosley on the Cook touchdown in order to allow Cook to be wide open, and Davis sold the hell out of a crack block on the flat defender on the touchdown to Johnson completely eliminating him from the play and then hustled down field to shove and shield the corner who was covering him vertical so that he couldn't make a play on it either. HUGE play that will go completely unnoticed by the public.

[Coach Tuesday]

38 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

Josh definitely wanted to go to Diggs initially (he had a 1v1 with a linebacker), recognized it was Hole coverage and knew that the backside double Posts would beat the Cover 3 look as Kincaid was running the collector route (inside post to occupy the Safety) and Shakir would have inside leverage on an in-breaking route vs the corner. Just good recognition and a great job going through his progressions - understanding the coverage and what we were doing offensively that would attack that coverage.

 

Also want to shout out Diggs and Davis on the earlier touchdowns. Neither of them had the sexy stat line, but they both did a lot of the dirty work. Diggs picked Mosley on the Cook touchdown in order to allow Cook to be wide open, and Davis sold the hell out of a crack block on the flat defender on the touchdown to Johnson completely eliminating him from the play and then hustled down field to shove and shield the corner who was covering him vertical so that he couldn't make a play on it either. HUGE play that will go completely unnoticed by the public.

Yeah Davis made Johnson’s TD happen almost single-handedly.  On the Cook TD, I thought Diggs easily could’ve been flagged.

[HappyDays]

58 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

but instead we run a Pirate game with Rousseau

 

I've seen you mention this term before. What is a Pirate game? A specific type of stunt?

[WideNine]

53 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

Josh definitely wanted to go to Diggs initially (he had a 1v1 with a linebacker), recognized it was Hole coverage and knew that the backside double Posts would beat the Cover 3 look as Kincaid was running the collector route (inside post to occupy the Safety) and Shakir would have inside leverage on an in-breaking route vs the corner. Just good recognition and a great job going through his progressions - understanding the coverage and what we were doing offensively that would attack that coverage.

 

Also want to shout out Diggs and Davis on the earlier touchdowns. Neither of them had the sexy stat line, but they both did a lot of the dirty work. Diggs picked Mosley on the Cook touchdown in order to allow Cook to be wide open, and Davis sold the hell out of a crack block on the flat defender on the touchdown to Johnson completely eliminating him from the play and then hustled down field to shove and shield the corner who was covering him vertical so that he couldn't make a play on it either. HUGE play that will go completely unnoticed by the public.

 

Noticed them doing a lot of the dirty work too which (for me) softened the narratives that we should have gotten more production out of our #1 and #2 WRs.

 

Game within the game that shows a lot of unselfish heady play by our receiving core to do the things needed to open up plays for guys that don't normally show up as much on the reception stat sheets.

 

That is needed against a defense that has the kind of players and schemes that can do a good job taking away your primary receiving options.

 

 

[BADOLBILZ]

2 hours ago, Dukestreetking said:

Just quick aside Bado: some poster, I think on the PoGT, said he witnessed this exchange, and that Brady was smiling and gave acknowledgement. No idea, maybe different moments...

 

And a million people were at "The Comeback" game.