Second blitz at end of game

[boyst]

2 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

We did generate pressure. Ed was a monster all night. That’s why we didn’t blitz a whole lot. Did you watch the game?

i should have said the pressure did not do enough to change the game or alter the efficiency of wilson.

[HappyDays]

37 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

We did generate pressure. Ed was a monster all night. That’s why we didn’t blitz a whole lot. Did you watch the game?

 

Maybe you saw it differently but I thought a lot of the pressure was undisciplined. Like Oliver running right by Wilson at full speed and giving him an easy lane to step up into multiple times. Sure it counts as a pressure but it doesn't lead to a negative outcome. Or a blitzer failing to account for the leaking RB - we gave up big 1st downs several times on this same play, and it was especially frustrating to see Denver hit it on their first play of the last drive for a big gain which immediately took the pressure off them and put our defense on its heels. I don't understand why we hadn't adjusted to it by then.

 

I watch other defenses against us and they wisely have spies making sure Allen can't just step up like that or dump the ball off to a RB with 10 yards of separation. They do a mush rush where they barely even try to sack Allen off the snap, they instead prioritize making sure he can't escape the pocket and slowly compress in on him from all sides. Whereas I felt that most of the night our pressure looks let Wilson off the hook and gave him easy answers.

 

Edited November 15, 2023 by HappyDays

[HoofHearted]

6 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Maybe you saw it differently but I thought a lot of the pressure was undisciplined. Like Oliver running right by Wilson at full speed and giving him an easy lane to step up into multiple times. Sure it counts as a pressure but it doesn't lead to a negative outcome. Or a blitzer failing to account for the leaking RB - we gave up big 1st downs several times on this same play, and it was especially frustrating to see Denver hit it on their first play of the last drive for a big gain which immediately took the pressure off them and put our defense on its heels. I don't understand why we hadn't adjusted to it by then.

 

I watch other defenses against us and they wisely have spies making sure Allen can't just step up like that or dump the ball off to a RB with 10 yards of separation. They do a mush rush where they barely even try to sack Allen off the snap, they instead prioritize making sure he can't escape the pocket and slowly compress in on him from all sides. Whereas I felt that most of the night our pressure looks let Wilson off the hook and gave him easy answers.

 

100% - we had poor rush integrity all night. We did a poor job with our low box/hi box rules. Ed was winning all night though.

[HappyDays]

6 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

Ed was winning all night though.

 

So my one point of contention is that with mobile QBs, beating the OL in front of you isn't enough to count as a win. If you beat your man and then rush yourself out of the play I wouldn't really call that a win. It's just a good 1v1 rep. But I understand what you're saying.

[JerseyBills]

19 hours ago, Dick_Cheney said:

Yes, just with a positive result. 

Hater.. 

Some of yall really prefer the negativity on here. ***** is mind boggling. Lose faith, root for Mahomes and Mr Phizer just f off. We're the mother******* Buffalo Bills

Keep that energy when we're hoisting a trophy 

[Snappysnackcakes]

1 hour ago, HoofHearted said:

We did generate pressure. Ed was a monster all night. That’s why we didn’t blitz a whole lot. Did you watch the game?

And we now see why arm length is really important at DT. 

[Alphadawg7]

2 hours ago, NewEra said:

Whatever floats your boat man.  Seems strange to blame every single loss 💯 on the offense. Can’t subscribe to the defense getting zero blame in the patriot game especially 

 

Remember when we got 0 points on the half yard line because Dorsey ran the ball in shotgun for the 2nd time in back to back weeks on 3rd and goal inside the 1?  We just sneak that for a TD we are up 2 scores on that last drive and it doesn't matter.  Not to mention other drive killing issues that also kept points off the board.  

 

All good though bud

[Simon]

2 hours ago, HoofHearted said:

We did generate pressure. Ed was a monster all night. That’s why we didn’t blitz a whole lot. Did you watch the game?

 

This is actually one of my problems with that 2nd blitz call.

Aside from the fact that you're telegraphing to a veteran QB that you're again leaving your corners out to dry, that entire series Oliver was pushing the pocket down after down after down and there was not a thing their OLine could do about it.

There was minimal upside to sending the house there again. There is no longer any element of surprise to create doubt or confusion, a veteran like Wilson is not going to take a sack there, none of our our DB's or LB's are particularly effective rushers, dropping that DE into coverage does nothing to improve it, etc. But there is a significant downside there where an unsuccessful blitz likely costs you the game in that spot, which it did. It was a foolish gamble with way more negative potential than positive.

All that needed to be done was to defend the sticks on 3rd down while the inevitable interior pressure forces Wilson into a too quick decision.

McDermott is a bit of a micromanager with an observable tendency to overcoach games and that was another example of it right there.

[starrymessenger]

4 hours ago, NoSaint said:

ultimately I think we are fully in agreement just talking about different elements of the play. 
 

id bet a significant sum that the play call was essentially verticals, with the instruction that if they come to pick the mismatch and whatever you do don’t over throw it. 
 

on an island and a 4.4 guy gets his release of the line  - I don’t care if you are the best nickel corner ever… unless you have help, that’s a great matchup for the offense.

 

sure McDermott created pressure but Payton gave every bit of the pressure back with what amounted to a more skilled and more prepared group of players that had the rules in their favor.

 

im not furious or anything but I do think we got one upped on that play by a smart coach-vet qb- good wr putting a decent corner in a very tough spot schematically 

You know throughout the 4th quarter end of game I kept saying to myself "Payton must be getting a big kick out of this. Wonder how long and exactly how he will lower the boom on McD." Honestly.

[Simon]

4 hours ago, Snappysnackcakes said:

Tell me about it. I’m becoming increasingly convinced HoofHearted is lightly associated with the team. 

 

I think it's more just human nature that one coach will tend to defend another coach when he's under attack by a bunch of half-clueless fans. 

[GrimboG]

I know this is page 7 now, but I still felt the need to join this thread and question WTF that was about! 

 

I live in Scotland and have never played football but could have adjusted to that in Payton/Wilsons position, which they did.

 

The Broncos seemed better prepared generally for those couple of plays. All more HC than OC

Edited November 16, 2023 by GrimboG

[HoofHearted]

1 hour ago, Simon said:

 

This is actually one of my problems with that 2nd blitz call.

Aside from the fact that you're telegraphing to a veteran QB that you're again leaving your corners out to dry, that entire series Oliver was pushing the pocket down after down after down and there was not a thing their OLine could do about it.

There was minimal upside to sending the house there again. There is no longer any element of surprise to create doubt or confusion, a veteran like Wilson is not going to take a sack there, none of our our DB's or LB's are particularly effective rushers, dropping that DE into coverage does nothing to improve it, etc. But there is a significant downside there where an unsuccessful blitz likely costs you the game in that spot, which it did. It was a foolish gamble with way more negative potential than positive.

All that needed to be done was to defend the sticks on 3rd down while the inevitable interior pressure forces Wilson into a too quick decision.

McDermott is a bit of a micromanager with an observable tendency to overcoach games and that was another example of it right there.

Yep. That’s definitely the downside to playing man. From a purely schematic standpoint it was a good call. We got the matchups we wanted (Poyer and Demar 2v1 on a back). If Poyer hits it tighter Demar has a shot at the sack. Playing Man 7 took away the quick throw and forced them into a pass that hits about 35% of the time versus a ten yard completion that’s around 65%. Definitely a gamble. Definitely not as egregious as some are making it out to be.

[NoSaint]

31 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

Yep. That’s definitely the downside to playing man. From a purely schematic standpoint it was a good call. We got the matchups we wanted (Poyer and Demar 2v1 on a back). If Poyer hits it tighter Demar has a shot at the sack. Playing Man 7 took away the quick throw and forced them into a pass that hits about 35% of the time versus a ten yard completion that’s around 65%. Definitely a gamble. Definitely not as egregious as some are making it out to be.

35% chance we never get the ball back vs much higher we get it back with a short throw is a consideration though.

[Mikie2times]

43 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

Yep. That’s definitely the downside to playing man. From a purely schematic standpoint it was a good call. We got the matchups we wanted (Poyer and Demar 2v1 on a back). If Poyer hits it tighter Demar has a shot at the sack. Playing Man 7 took away the quick throw and forced them into a pass that hits about 35% of the time versus a ten yard completion that’s around 65%. Definitely a gamble. Definitely not as egregious as some are making it out to be.

Except the pressure was never going to get home because of the sequence of the plays. It had no element of surprise. 

[HoofHearted]

3 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

Except the pressure was never going to get home because of the sequence of the plays. It had no element of surprise. 

I know this is going to come as a shocker to you so you might want to sit down, but pressure's don't get home because of the "element of surprise".

[Mikie2times]

Just now, HoofHearted said:

I know this is going to come as a shocker to you so you might want to sit down, but pressure's don't get home because of the "element of surprise".

I know this is going to come as a shocker to you so you might want to stand up. A QB can get rid of the ball faster than a defense can arrive. It's sort of like science or something. 

[HoofHearted]

2 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

I know this is going to come as a shocker to you so you might want to stand up. A QB can get rid of the ball faster than a defense can arrive. It's sort of like science or something. 

Well damn, how are sacks even a thing then!?!?!? 😉

[Chaos]

2 hours ago, Simon said:

McDermott is a bit of a micromanager with an observable tendency to overcoach games and that was another example of it right there.

I would describe my observation of this same tendency to be "McDermott tends to choke and make mistakes in crucial moments during tight games"

[boyst]

14 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

Well damn, how are sacks even a thing then!?!?!? 😉

I know this may come as a shocker to you but discipline creates sacks. Strong coverage, good rush lanes, luck, etc.

 

Step off your high horse just a tad because people want to engage you and learn without you being a prick. They're gonna be one back if you're going to be one. Up to you.

[Ray Stonada]

“When the Bills are tied or leading by one score in the fourth quarter this season, McDermott’s vaunted defense drops to 28th in EPA/play, according to TruMedia. In the biggest moments, McDermott wilts.”

 

https://theathletic.com/5064917/2023/11/15/buffalo-bills-sean-mcdermott-ken-dorsey/

[Beck Water]

On 11/15/2023 at 5:51 PM, Simon said:

 

This is actually one of my problems with that 2nd blitz call.

Aside from the fact that you're telegraphing to a veteran QB that you're again leaving your corners out to dry, that entire series Oliver was pushing the pocket down after down after down and there was not a thing their OLine could do about it.

There was minimal upside to sending the house there again. There is no longer any element of surprise to create doubt or confusion, a veteran like Wilson is not going to take a sack there, none of our our DB's or LB's are particularly effective rushers, dropping that DE into coverage does nothing to improve it, etc. But there is a significant downside there where an unsuccessful blitz likely costs you the game in that spot, which it did. It was a foolish gamble with way more negative potential than positive.

All that needed to be done was to defend the sticks on 3rd down while the inevitable interior pressure forces Wilson into a too quick decision.

McDermott is a bit of a micromanager with an observable tendency to overcoach games and that was another example of it right there.

 

But here’s the thing.  In the past, when the Bills (especially under Frazier) made the safe “defend the sticks, keep it in front of you” choice on 3rd down, but then imperfect zone or tackling allowed the opponents offense to convert, there was a lot of second-guessing here about the “soft” approach, and calls for a more attacking defense that would send pressure 🤷‍♂️

[Einstein]

10 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

But here’s the thing.  In the past, when the Bills (especially under Frazier) made the safe “defend the sticks, keep it in front of you” choice on 3rd down

 

I think you’re arguing apples and oranges here.

Simon’s point is that McD went to the blitz well one too many times. There was no more element of surprise. Wilson, being a veteran QB, knew it was coming and had a plan for it, because we had just done it several times in a row.

 

Thats not the same thing as fans being critical of Frazier for dropping back and guarding the sticks, which is what he did in nearly every game-winning drive scenario.

 

What many fans wanted out of Frazier is tighter coverage (instead of playing 10 yards off) and a blitz every now and then. Not a blitz every down to end the game.

[Jauronimo]

On 11/15/2023 at 8:09 PM, Mikie2times said:

I know this is going to come as a shocker to you so you might want to stand up. A QB can get rid of the ball faster than a defense can arrive. It's sort of like science or something. 

And if the pressure gets there quickly that is usually a good outcome for the defense...sack or no sack. Weird, I know.  

[RoyBatty is alive]

On 11/15/2023 at 8:09 PM, Mikie2times said:

I know this is going to come as a shocker to you so you might want to stand up. A QB can get rid of the ball faster than a defense can arrive. It's sort of like science or something. 

What is the point of this ?  Yes, we understand but putting pressure on the QB quicker forces rushed and often bad QB throws, be him sacked or not.

[Mikie2times]

13 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

And if the pressure gets there quickly that is usually a good outcome for the defense...sack or no sack. Weird, I know.  

 

 

7 minutes ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

What is the point of this ?  Yes, we understand but putting pressure on the QB quicker forces rushed and often bad QB throws, be him sacked or not.

If you're going to revive a thread, at least take the time to read the surrounding posts to what you're quoting.  

Edited November 20, 2023 by Mikie2times

[RoyBatty is alive]

Just now, Mikie2times said:

 

 

If you're going to revive a thread, at least take the time to read the posts that lead to the responses you're quoting.  

Nah, I aint going through 7 pages , if you have a dumb arse quote you own it,  Weird, I know.