Frazier and/or his System hurt player development

[GerstAusGosheim]

11 hours ago, mrags said:

I just think a lot of it falls on McD. If he’s doing what he’s doing with this defense there’s no reason he should allowed Frazier to do what he did for years without addressing it. It essentially cost is the 13 second game. There’s more as well. It’s on McD for not addressing it. 
 

but yes, our defense was very good even with that being a major problem. 

 

You're right about one thing, Sean cost us the 13 second game, but not how you suggest.

 

Sean overruled the squibb kick and called the D during the :13 debacle.

 

Y'all continue to blame Leslie for everything.

 

 

 

 

[EasternOHBillsFan]

1 hour ago, Blackbeard said:

And i agree.  McD is better thus far.

 

My point was is that one day Mc is awful.  The next game, depending on score, Frazier is awful.  The game after, it's Allen.  

 

Next week, if we have a let down, it'll be "Miss Frazier yet?". 

 

People act SO damn finicky with these week to week threads.  

 

Not I... I don't fall for the noise when other teams are struggling like we are in certain spots. My problem has always been with putting too much on Josh, but the way we have been running the ball (ESPECIALLY with Latavius Murray's DRIVE!) we are in a much better position!

[HardyBoy]

1 hour ago, GerstAusGosheim said:

The biggest difference could be that Sean has a better Dline than Leslie ever had. I don't think enough people recognize that. Adding Leonard Floyd to the mix of DaQuon Jones, a healthy Ed Oliver and Greg Rousseau entering his breakout 3rd season was huge. 

 

Maybe, but I am pretty sure I'm seeing a lot more choreographed rushes now, which I have to imagine are done with the intention of understanding where the first read will be and getting a rusher coming through that passing window...or using coverage to take away the first read and then having the pressure come through the passing window of the second read...like that's my guess as to what's happening now based on some free rushers I saw last week where it was obvious they were trying to choreograph a specific person to come free, I just have no idea if that was happening under Frazier.

 

Hearing McD talk about how they wanted to dictate a lot more and seeing that highly symbiotic anf choreographed defense across all levels and the amount of disguised and simulated pressures we're seeing now...I think that is what is happening. 

 

Edit: adding the link

 

Haven't watched this yet, but saw it was up right after I posted...let's see if I was right

 

 

 

Edited October 2, 2023 by HardyBoy

[HoofHearted]

2 hours ago, GerstAusGosheim said:

The biggest difference could be that Sean has a better Dline than Leslie ever had. I don't think enough people recognize that. Adding Leonard Floyd to the mix of DaQuon Jones, a healthy Ed Oliver and Greg Rousseau entering his breakout 3rd season was huge. 

It definitely makes a difference. McDermott seems more willing to dial up pressures on early downs than Frazier was as well and it's reflected in the shift in coverages we're playing compared to last year.

[GerstAusGosheim]

4 hours ago, NewEra said:

Do we know that it was Frazier calling the plays in 13 seconds?

We know it was Sean. Right after he overruled the squibb kick.

[NewEra]

31 minutes ago, GerstAusGosheim said:

We know it was Sean. Right after he overruled the squibb kick.

That’s what I thought.  More to my point.  

[mrags]

5 hours ago, NewEra said:

This is all speculation imo.  We don’t know what was said behind closed doors.  We don’t know what McD did or didn’t say to Frazier over the years.  Do we know that it was Frazier calling the plays in 13 seconds?

 

I don’t really care to discuss this anymore.  I’d rather live in the present than complain about the past.   Especially to complain about our HC/DC that just shut down the vaunted Miami O.   
 

He won that game yesterday, taking a perceived young mastermind to the woodshed

With this I agree. 

3 hours ago, GerstAusGosheim said:

 

You're right about one thing, Sean cost us the 13 second game, but not how you suggest.

 

Sean overruled the squibb kick and called the D during the :13 debacle.

 

Y'all continue to blame Leslie for everything.

 

 

 

 

Do you not remember Hill and Kelce running circles around our entire defense all game? Huge chunk plays for TDs. Slow methodical drives. They did it all. If the defense even stops then once it’s not an issue. 
 

yes the same could’ve said for KC and stopping us. But I’m not concerned with what other teams do. I’m concerned with what we do and we got ran up and down the field on more drives than they did to us. And we lost the game. Period. 

[Alphadawg7]

20 hours ago, gonzo1105 said:

Feel free to merge this with the other Frazier thread but the more I watch this defense, and this team in general, has an edge to it. 
 

It’s pretty clear through 4 games that Frazier wasn’t running McDermotts defense and McDermott determined that his DC was holding some players back. 
 

The difference in play and aggressiveness from Ed Oliver, Greg Rousseau have been night and day. 
 

The development of AJ Epenesa who has been really good early this year, Terrell Bernard, Christian Benford look like pro bowl type players now. 
 

just a huge night and day difference with some of these guys from last year. 

 

If anyone wants to know just how much weaker Frazier was at getting home on QB's...Since trading for Jerry Hughes, he played 5 years without Frazier (his first 4 in Buffalo then last year in Houston) and 5 years with Frazier.  Hughes averaged 4.5 sacks with Frazier and 9 sacks without Frazier including 9 last year when he was supposed to be washed up.  

 

Frazier IMHO is the biggest reason we have not reached a SB and I couldn't be happier he is gone

[Buffalo716]

3 hours ago, GerstAusGosheim said:

 

You're right about one thing, Sean cost us the 13 second game, but not how you suggest.

 

Sean overruled the squibb kick and called the D during the :13 debacle.

 

Y'all continue to blame Leslie for everything.

 

 

 

 

For the 870000 time you can fall on a squib kick without any time coming off the clock

 

You can fall on a squib kick at the 30 and no time comes off..  a football is oblong

 

There is no guarantee you're just going to pin them on the 15 yard line and knock off time

[Don Otreply]

16 hours ago, mrags said:

if you actually think they let Frazier “depart on his own terms” then I guess we have nothing to talk about here. I don’t believe that crap for one minute. 

I think Frazier was good. But had serious flaws. Like his lack of aggressiveness like always. He would consistently go into a prevent shell any chance he could. It cost us games. It’s something he’s always done. Dating back to the days he was a HC as well. Would get way to conservative. 

   Frazier was essentially shown the door the millisecond that the “senior defensive assistant” was brought up in conversation.  Anyone who thinks otherwise is being willfully naive imo.      
    Management made it easy for him to step off and save face, because they are good people,  but make no mistake he was let go, laid off, fired, ya can call it anything you want, but this is the reality of what happened. 

[RoyBatty is alive]

20 hours ago, BillsFan130 said:

His defence was wayyyy too vanilla.

 

Rush 4, no simulated pressures, rarely blitzed.

 

Against bad QBs it works (which is why they had good numbers in the regular season)

 

But good QBs pick that apart 

Interesting, makes sense.

[NewEra]

32 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

If anyone wants to know just how much weaker Frazier was at getting home on QB's...Since trading for Jerry Hughes, he played 5 years without Frazier (his first 4 in Buffalo then last year in Houston) and 5 years with Frazier.  Hughes averaged 4.5 sacks with Frazier and 9 sacks without Frazier including 9 last year when he was supposed to be washed up.  

 

Frazier IMHO is the biggest reason we have not reached a SB and I couldn't be happier he is gone

To be fair to Frazier in this respect, Hughes had no one worth a dam running with him under Frazier.  Beane blew it in that respect those years.  Prior to Frazier, Hughes was running with Mario, Kyle and Dareus.  

 

when there’s only one good pass rusher to worry about, it’s easy for an offense to scheme around him.  
 

That said, I do understand what you’re saying and I agree with the premise of your statement 

[RoyBatty is alive]

19 hours ago, Blackbeard said:

Just stop with this stuff. 
 

next week, if they were to lose, you’d be praising Frazier and starting posts about McD. 

There is a lot of truth to that.

 

First game Allen implodes and it is all Ken Dorsey fault.  Now Allens on fire and Dorsey is a rock start.

[Milanos Milano]

I will be the first to say I’m sorry to McD. This year is clearly different than last year in terms of “softness” . This D without a doubt has a sharpness to it. Frazier was the issue. 

As others have stated, the development of Oliver and Rousseau have been very noticeable thus far. 

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

3 hours ago, GerstAusGosheim said:

 

You're right about one thing, Sean cost us the 13 second game, but not how you suggest.

 

Sean overruled the squibb kick and called the D during the :13 debacle.

 

Y'all continue to blame Leslie for everything.

 

 

 

 

 

Wouldn't you take over calling the defense at that point?  The reason they got all those yards is because of where levi wallace lined up.  15 yards off the LOS, and on the boundary... covering no one.  That isn't in the playcall usually...  Its sort of common sense if they have no one on your side to pinch in and line up over kelce unless they motion you out.  It gives away the playcall and it leaves a massive space on the field.  

[Alphadawg7]

2 minutes ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

There is a lot of truth to that.

 

First game Allen implodes and it is all Ken Dorsey fault.  Now Allens on fire and Dorsey is a rock start.

 

Disagree.  Dorsey was a major issue last year and he has made mistakes this year like the throwing it on 4th and inches debacle when a sneak has a SUBSTANTIALLY higher success rate.  

 

But, it looks like BOTH Allen and Dorsey looked at what was working and what wasn't working week 1 and finally made some adjustments.  Part of being a great OC is getting on the same page with your players.  

 

It is still a long season, and Dorsey needs to show he can both maintain this and make adjustments when teams eventually make their own adjustments to what we are doing with a high degree of success right now.  

 

As someone who has been critical of Dorsey's issues last year and things earlier in the season, I have no problem admitting that this was his best game ever as an OC where the game plan was there and the team executed it at a high level.  If this is what we get from Dorsey moving forward, this offense will be unstoppable.  But we need to see him sustain this when teams come up with counters to what we are doing, and that was probably the what he was worst at last year.  

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

3 hours ago, GerstAusGosheim said:

 

You're right about one thing, Sean cost us the 13 second game, but not how you suggest.

 

Sean overruled the squibb kick and called the D during the :13 debacle.

 

Y'all continue to blame Leslie for everything.

 

 

 

 

I think the timeout he took gave mahomes and Kelce time to talk about how the bills were lined up too so I’d blame McDermott for a few things.  Not sure if we called a timeout then made 0 adjustments lol

1 minute ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Disagree.  Dorsey was a major issue last year and he has made mistakes this year like the throwing it on 4th and inches debacle when a sneak has a SUBSTANTIALLY higher success rate.  

 

But, it looks like BOTH Allen and Dorsey looked at what was working and what wasn't working week 1 and finally made some adjustments.  Part of being a great OC is getting on the same page with your players.  

 

It is still a long season, and Dorsey needs to show he can both maintain this and make adjustments when teams eventually make their own adjustments to what we are doing with a high degree of success right now.  

 

As someone who has been critical of Dorsey's issues last year and things earlier in the season, I have no problem admitting that this was his best game ever as an OC where the game plan was there and the team executed it at a high level.  If this is what we get from Dorsey moving forward, this offense will be unstoppable.  But we need to see him sustain this when teams come up with counters to what we are doing, and that was probably the what he was worst at last year.  

I’m gonna soft disagree on week 1 this year but dorsey def had issues last year.  The first half of the jets game things went exactly by design and it was more than good enough to win but it felt like josh just got frustrated they weren’t moving the ball up to his standards and he started just winging the ball all over the place 

 

could be a conspiracy theory but I still feel like josh just didn’t have the touch for underneath throws in traffic with his elbow injury last year…idk if that’s just wishful thinking or not 😂

[The Wiz]

3 hours ago, HardyBoy said:

 

Maybe, but I am pretty sure I'm seeing a lot more choreographed rushes now, which I have to imagine are done with the intention of understanding where the first read will be and getting a rusher coming through that passing window...or using coverage to take away the first read and then having the pressure come through the passing window of the second read...like that's my guess as to what's happening now based on some free rushers I saw last week where it was obvious they were trying to choreograph a specific person to come free, I just have no idea if that was happening under Frazier.

 

Hearing McD talk about how they wanted to dictate a lot more and seeing that highly symbiotic anf choreographed defense across all levels and the amount of disguised and simulated pressures we're seeing now...I think that is what is happening. 

 

Edit: adding the link

 

Haven't watched this yet, but saw it was up right after I posted...let's see if I was right

 

 

 

I just watched this video and seeing how they rotate coverage and disguise pressure is something I don't really remember from Frazier.  It was always so vanilla other than just calling a LB/CB or safety blitz once every 4 drives.

 

Even the plays that were completed passes/rushes, the bills took away a bunch of stuff to make sure to keep Tua off his 1st (and sometimes 2nd and 3rd read) with the intent of making sure he took the checkdown or a sack. 

 

I'm pretty sure I saw a post that the bills defense has allowed points on 21% of the other teams offensive possessions and have forced turnovers on 26% of other teams offensive possessions (I'm assuming the other 53% is punts).  

 

The point is, Frazier didn't use half of the playbook that McD had in the playbook.  Bend but don't break is not the bills defense anymore.  Bend and then 'break their spirits' has what it has looked like.

[HardyBoy]

17 minutes ago, The Wiz said:

I just watched this video and seeing how they rotate coverage and disguise pressure is something I don't really remember from Frazier.  It was always so vanilla other than just calling a LB/CB or safety blitz once every 4 drives.

 

Even the plays that were completed passes/rushes, the bills took away a bunch of stuff to make sure to keep Tua off his 1st (and sometimes 2nd and 3rd read) with the intent of making sure he took the checkdown or a sack. 

 

I'm pretty sure I saw a post that the bills defense has allowed points on 21% of the other teams offensive possessions and have forced turnovers on 26% of other teams offensive possessions (I'm assuming the other 53% is punts).  

 

The point is, Frazier didn't use half of the playbook that McD had in the playbook.  Bend but don't break is not the bills defense anymore.  Bend and then 'break their spirits' has what it has looked like.

 

Don't you remember how much people talked about how hard it was playing against poyer and hyde because they would shift coverage at the last second? That's not new...the bills used to simulate pressure all the time with Edmunds coming up into the A gap and then dropping out.

 

That's not new, I think what we are seeing is the defense more dictating to the offense on where to go with the ball based on the look and then having the pressure come in a planned way to disrupt that look and anticipate where the second read is and try to bait bad decisions.

 

They were doing a lot of that last year, but I think McD is much more shrewd in his play calling in terms of messing with an offenses head in terms of causing ghosts and mirages.

[Matt_In_NH]

I will reserve judgement for the playoffs....Frazier's defense had plenty of outstanding regular season outings.

[The Wiz]

12 minutes ago, HardyBoy said:

 

Don't you remember how much people talked about how hard it was playing against poyer and hyde because they would shift coverage at the last second? That's not new...the bills used to simulate pressure all the time with Edmunds coming up into the A gap and then dropping out.

 

That's not new, I think what we are seeing is the defense more dictating to the offense on where to go with the ball based on the look and then having the pressure come in a planned way to disrupt that look and anticipate where the second read is and try to bait bad decisions.

 

They were doing a lot of that last year, but I think McD is much more shrewd in his play calling in terms of messing with an offenses head in terms of causing ghosts and mirages.

The difference I see is he isn't using 1 guy to disguise coverage and force stuff a certain way.  He's using most of the secondary to rotate and move into different places instead of just having Edmunds run up to the line and back off.

 

Also, with regard to Edmunds, watching the video and seeing Bernard call the defensive plays and watching stuff pre-snap and communicating to the rest of the defense is something I know that Edmunds did but Bernard is calling the plays/adjusting the defense and then looking like a younger Milano with the way he tracks and attacks the ball.

 

We never had that with Edmunds and I think that is another big reason the defense looks different.

Edited October 2, 2023 by The Wiz