Giants and Barkley do not reach an agreement on a new contract

[dave mcbride]

3 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

https://www.footballdb.com/statistics/nfl/player-stats/all-purpose-yards/2022/regular-season
 

14 of the top 20 being rbs seems pretty high for complimentary pieces.

Yards per play and value over replacement player are what I care about. Just like in the NBA, where someone has to score the points, someone has to accumulate yards. I'll take the guy who gets 8-10 yards per attempt over the guy who gets 4.5. It's an efficiency thing.

 

LBs generally lead teams in tackles yet they are the lowest paid defenders, and for good reason: they're the most easily replaced and aren't as valuable in the passing game as D-lineman and secondary players, and passing dominates the NFL. Raw numbers are meaningless. 

Edited July 18, 2023 by dave mcbride

[C.Biscuit97]

1 minute ago, dave mcbride said:

Yards per play and value over replacement player are what I care about. Just like in the NBA, where someone has to score the points, someone has to accumulate yards. I'll take the guy who gets 8-10 yards per attempt over the guy who gets 4.5. It's an efficiency thing.

 

LBs generally lead teams in tackles yet they are the lowest paid defenders, and for good reason: they're the most easily replaced and aren't as valuable in the passing game as D-lineman and secondary players, and passing dominates the NFL. Raw numbers are meaningless. 

Good point and I won’t disagree that passing is much more effective just like 3 pointers are better than long 2s.

 

the point all the nerds who never played a sport past little league miss is there is a mental part of being physical. Ask any o linemen if they would rather pass block or run block. Jokic is such a skilled big man but he would also go inside and physically dominant and beat up guys. The more guys get hit, they stop being as aggressive. Pass rushers love team that just throw the ball. It’s makes their jobs easier. KC kicked into a different gear when Panceho emerged. 
 

you can pass a million times again but football, especially in the playoffs and cold, can sometimes be a game where physically manhandling someone can go a long way as well. The Bengals, their running game especially, manhandled us. The Eagles physically manhandled teams last year. 

[DrDawkinstein]

34 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

If you were Barkley, would be happy Jones was making 4 times as much? Or Henry and Tannehill?

 

you don’t see why players might get upset when Jones has averaged 15 td passes and 8.5 ints and is making 4 times as much as the best rb? 

What? You think when they were both in the titans, Brown was more valuable than Henry? That’s certainly a take Skip Bayless would be proud of Dave. 

 

Then they shouldve been QBs.

 

 

[Doc]

48 minutes ago, Not at the table Karlos said:

Off topic but a LAMP. Sitting behind Derrick Henry on flight from DFW to LA

 

Pics or it didn't happen.

[Not at the table Karlos]

1 minute ago, Doc said:

 

Pics or it didn't happen.

Lol I really want to but he seems like he doesn't want to be bothered. Guy is huge 

[KDIGGZ]

1 hour ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Let’s put in terms you might understand. At your job, you are in back making sure the fries and food goes out properly and tastes great. Now you have a goofy dork who works the cashier register who has been terrible for years. He had his best year, but he was still pretty terrible but he wasn’t getting orders wrong 7 times a day like he used to. Everyone knows how much better you are at your fry job than him. Yet, that goofy dork gets paid 4 more times that you.

 

would you be happy?

If the fry guy is making fries so good that's the reason people are coming there to eat then they will promote that guy. But the fry guy is an unskilled worker that can be replaced in 2 seconds with another unskilled worker and maybe for less money. You must not understand how the world works and I feel sorry for you. Please try again

[C.Biscuit97]

36 minutes ago, KDIGGZ said:

If the fry guy is making fries so good that's the reason people are coming there to eat then they will promote that guy. But the fry guy is an unskilled worker that can be replaced in 2 seconds with another unskilled worker and maybe for less money. You must not understand how the world works and I feel sorry for you. Please try again

I was trying to compare it to a real world job scenario that you could understand. But this is where the salary cap in the nfl hurts players. They are slotted by position but not actual value to the team. If everything is equal, who would giants fans say is more a valuable player - Jones or Barkley? If there was no salary cap or slotting, the Giants won’t have to play Jones as much and could pay Barkley more. But no team wants to be the one that resets the market of a position. 

[KDIGGZ]

2 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

I was trying to compare it to a real world job scenario that you could understand. But this is where the salary cap in the nfl hurts players. They are slotted by position but not actual value to the team. If everything is equal, who would giants fans say is more a valuable player - Jones or Barkley? If there was no salary cap or slotting, the Giants won’t have to play Jones as much and could pay Barkley more. But no team wants to be the one that resets the market of a position. 

Salary cap and slotting have nothing to do with it. A RB's value is low because there's an unlimited supply of them and there is a limited lifespan. Similar to production type businesses, RB's would be considered consumables. They are only good for so long and then they need to be replaced. If you spent all of your resources on a consumable you would be out of business pretty fast. Teams buy RB's in bulk. Every team has like 4-5 of them ready to go at all times. The usefulness of a RB drops off after that 1st contract. And the use case for a RB is increasingly more and more limited as the league has evolved to a more pass oriented attack. It's not a high value position.

 

*IF* a RB can prove their value (CMC instantly made the 49ers better and adds value as a pass catcher) then they will get paid accordingly. Barkley proved his value but also gets a knock due to his injury history. He only played 2 full seasons in 4 years. If his services were in such high demand you would see teams beating down the Giants door to try and trade for him but they are not. They know they can get 8/10 Barkley performance for 1/10 the price from a rookie. It's just good business.

[Doc Brown]

6 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

Hence my comment of overvaluing…. He’s spent higher picks on RBs then he has WRs.

It’s easier to find an elite potential running back in the mid rounds than a WR.  It’s passing on guys like Metcalf or Pickens for a OG or CB that ticks me off about Beane.

[Gregg]

So, it begins on the Barkley trade destinations. Bills, Chiefs and Bears were mentioned as the best fit. Here is the write up on the Bills.

 

 

Buffalo Bills

Josh Allen has made the Bills perennial Super Bowl contenders ever since his arrival. However, he has never led the Bills over the hump in the postseason, as they have yet to make it past the AFC Championship game under Allen. With that being said, Allen has never had a star running back at his side throughout his tenure. The Bills make so much sense as a possible trade destination for Saquon Barkley, as it would give Allen by far the most talented backfield mate of his career. A whole new dynamic would be added to an already feared Bills offense, and it could propel them into the Super Bowl that they have been waiting for.

The Bills have high expectations for second-year running back James Cook this season, and for good reason. However, adding Saquon Barkley into the backfield would do no harm in the development of Cook, as he would be the perfect handcuff to keep Barkley fresh. The two could even come close to splitting carries with how many mouths there are to feed on the Bills offense already; in general, Barkley is the home-run swing that the Bills need to make, and they should be looking out for if and when the Giants running back signs the franchise tag.

[PetermansRedemption]

7 minutes ago, Gregg said:

So, it begins on the Barkley trade destinations. Bills, Chiefs and Bears were mentioned as the best fit. Here is the write up on the Bills.

 

 

Buffalo Bills

Josh Allen has made the Bills perennial Super Bowl contenders ever since his arrival. However, he has never led the Bills over the hump in the postseason, as they have yet to make it past the AFC Championship game under Allen. With that being said, Allen has never had a star running back at his side throughout his tenure. The Bills make so much sense as a possible trade destination for Saquon Barkley, as it would give Allen by far the most talented backfield mate of his career. A whole new dynamic would be added to an already feared Bills offense, and it could propel them into the Super Bowl that they have been waiting for.

The Bills have high expectations for second-year running back James Cook this season, and for good reason. However, adding Saquon Barkley into the backfield would do no harm in the development of Cook, as he would be the perfect handcuff to keep Barkley fresh. The two could even come close to splitting carries with how many mouths there are to feed on the Bills offense already; in general, Barkley is the home-run swing that the Bills need to make, and they should be looking out for if and when the Giants running back signs the franchise tag.

And they think splitting the workload between Cook and Barkley will justify paying Barkley the salary he will command? 

Edited July 18, 2023 by PetermansRedemption

[Gregg]

Just now, PetermansRedemption said:

And they think splitting the Carries between Cook and Barkley will justify paying Barkley the salary he will command? 

 

If the Bills did get Barkley, I think he would be the #1 RB. On the plus side it would take the pressure off of Allen as he wouldn't have to run as much anymore. 

[Doc]

If he's traded, can he sign a new deal?  If not, then no chance to the Bills or Chefs.

[TBBills Fan]

So Barkley is the fry cook?

 

 

[transient]

9 minutes ago, TBBills Fan said:

So Barkley is the fry cook?

 

 

So now he’s stealing lil’ Dalvin’s role and his last name?

[TBBills Fan]

1 minute ago, transient said:

So now he’s stealing lil’ Dalvin’s role and his last name?

 

 

I dont know but Barkley should at least get a manager title

[Chaos]

The number of posts in this thread that are so far off from the truth is high, even for a TBD thread. 
Some general concepts:

1. The owners are not against running backs
2. Veteran players that originally appoved of the rookie contract structure in the CBA are pro-themselves, and not pro-rookies who don't get a vote
3. The franchise tag concept approved by the players in the CBA by design results in different values for different positions
4. Running backs have shorter NFL careers than say, quarterbacks
5. The players signed off on a deal that screws running backs with
   1. A uniform rookie contract length that extends almost to the end of the expected career of RBs
   2. A franchise fee structure that reflects the fact that RBs who are free agents after the rookie contract are less valuable because of the remaining expected career life. 

The PLAYERS can solve this problem in the next CBA by negotating for shorter rookie contract lives for RBs to reflect thier shorter expected career life.  Imagein Derrick Henry being a free agent after his second season.  Imagine what teams who had elite QBS on a five year rookie contract might have paid for Derrick Henry.  This structure would hugely benefit the star NFL RBs, compared to the current structure. 

Edited July 18, 2023 by Chaos

[JimBob2232]

8 minutes ago, Chaos said:

The number of posts in this thread that are so far off from the truth is high, even for a TBD thread. 
Some general concepts:

1. The owners are not against running backs
2. Veteran players that originally appoved of the rookie contract structure in the CBA are pro-themselves, and not pro-rookies who don't get a vote
3. The franchise tag concept approved by the players in the CBA by design results in different values for different positions
4. Running backs have shorter NFL careers than say, quarterbacks
5. The players signed off on a deal that screws running backs with
   1. A uniform rookie contract length that extends almost to the end of the expected career of RBs
   2. A franchise fee structure that reflects the fact that RBs who are free agents after the rookie contract are less valuable because of the remaining expected career life. 

The PLAYERS can solve this problem in the next CBA by negotating for shorter rookie contract lives for RBs to reflect thier shorter expected career life.  Imagein Derrick Henry being a free agent after his second season.  Imagine what teams who had elite QBS on a five year rookie contract might have paid for Derrick Henry.  This structure would hugely benefit the start NFL RBs, compared to the current structure. 

 

All true.  However the real problem IMO is that you can plug and play almost any RB and not have a drastic change.  Why pay Barkley 16M/year when you can get 80% of the production for $4M/year?  Thats the issue.  Daniel Jones is not good, yet got $40M/year because the fear was that you can't replace him.  It's not bias against the player or position - its supply and demand. 

 

I do think the Franchise tag concept makes this harder.  Players dont get to know what their real market is - and are forced to sign and play for a "less than they think they are worth" - and in some cases - thats egregious.  But I dont know Barkley is getting 16M/year anywhere else either.  But he is at the whim of the Giants offering him "fair market value" without knowing what that is.  Maybe re-work the franchise tag to allow the team to match other deals would help.  I dont know.

 

And in disclaimer - im a HUGE Barkley fan.  Love the guy.  Behind Allen, probably my 2nd favorite player in the NFL.  But it's a crappy position to play in todays NFL.  

[Chaos]

8 minutes ago, JimBob2232 said:

- its supply and demand.

Star RBs entering their third season would have tremendously greater demand than star RB's entering their sixth season. 

Edited July 18, 2023 by Chaos

[thunderingsquid]

Get er done, OBD!