Hopkins released by Arizona (7/16: signed by Titans)

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

We're NOT in a "win-now Super Bowl window." This is simply not a team that believes in sacrificing the future for the present. And thank Goodness for that. We're in a Super Bowl window which has a good chance of lasting for many years .... if they don't go nut with their spending.

 

They are already $25M (OvertheCap.com) to $41M(Spotrac) OVER the cap for next year. Spending a lot of money is not, and should not be, a priority.

 

Folks are right that Hopkins is likely to be a very good player even if not what he used to be. But paying the money he got would have hurt us down the road. Significantly.

 

And the point is NOT what is the move that gets us to the next level. They've made it clear - right from the press conferences upon their being hired, but also every time when they've been asked since - that they want to be competitive every year. That's their goal. Whether it's yours or not. 

Allen says the goal is to win the Super Bowl at almost every opportunity 

 

 

[Thurman#1]

9 minutes ago, Airseven said:

He has plenty left in the tank. The issues were money demands, reduced practice schedule demands, and leadership/locker room concerns. Still potentially a great signing for the Titans.

 

 

I think you're right that it could be a really good signing for them. My guess is that he doesn't put them over the top, though. 

 

We'll see.

 

 

7 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Allen says the goal is to win the Super Bowl at almost every opportunity 

 

 

 

 

Um, where did I, or Beane or McDermott, say different? We did not. The quotation I referenced is about how to best accomplish that.

 

And players have, as they should, much more of a one year at a time focus that a GM should have. That's as it should be.

 

 

Edited July 17, 2023 by Thurman#1

[GoBills808]

7 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

I think you're right that it could be a really good signing for them. My guess is that he doesn't put them over the top, though. 

 

We'll see.

 

 

 

 

Um, where did I, or Beane or McDermott, say different? We did not. The quotation I referenced is about how to best accomplish that.

 

And players have, as they should, much more of a one year at a time focus that a GM should have. That's as it should be.

 

 

So I can see the two goals in opposition, that's why I referenced Allen. I understand they're not mutually exclusive necessarily but I also don't think they're automatically aligned.

[Punching Bag]

11 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

Makes sense to me, but I think Hopkins was always likely to settle for very good rather than terrific facilities and $15M or so extra to find private care that would fill the gap,

 

NFL professional facilities and being on a better team may make a difference in getting a contact post this 2 year contract.  I guess it depends on what the bonuses he can earn on Titans contract.

[Thurman#1]

1 minute ago, GoBills808 said:

So I can see the two goals in opposition, that's why I referenced Allen. I understand they're not mutually exclusive necessarily but I also don't think they're automatically aligned.

 

 

Winning the Super Bowl is NOT in opposition to being competitive every year. It's just not. The more shots at the brass ring you have the better.

 

Did Allen say something along the lines of wanting to win this year? Or did he say something along the lines of wanting to win this year even if it hurts our odds in future years? Wanting to win this year is something they all have in common.

[GoBills808]

3 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Winning the Super Bowl is NOT in opposition to being competitive every year. It's just not. The more shots at the brass ring you have the better.

 

Did Allen say something along the lines of wanting to win this year? Or did he say something along the lines of wanting to win this year even if it hurts our odds in future years? Wanting to win this year is something they all have in common.

This is not even debatable tbh

 

If you can't see how the Rams Super Bowl was in opposition to being competitive every year I don't know what to say

[NyQuil]

2 hours ago, Einstein's Dog said:

It's finally over.  I was having DHop fatigue. 

 

Well since this happened on a Sunday you had better avoid sports radio for the next couple days. National radio will have analysis and WGR will have tons of callers frothing at the mouth that Beane didn't figure out a way to free up money to sign him/

[newcam2012]

1 hour ago, Dr. K said:

Does Hopkins really have that much left in the tank? I suppose we'll find out, but I'm against paying for a player's reputation when he's on the downward side of his career. 

He looked pretty good last year after coming off of suspension. The guy is an elite route runner with great hands. The aging process for him with his skill set isn't as dramatic. Think Larry Fitzgerald as a good example. 

 

I'm convinced he would have had a positive impact on the Bills offense. Think a piece like him makes Diggs even better. We know what teams do come playoff time. 

 

Of course, it comes down to money, needs, other players available, fit, etc...

 

I wish Dhop was in a Bills uniform. However, I'm pretty confident Beane and company exhausted all avenues and felt like Dhop wasn't worth it. Hope he's right. 

[newcam2012]

52 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

We're NOT in a "win-now Super Bowl window." This is simply not a team that believes in sacrificing the future for the present. And thank Goodness for that. We're in a Super Bowl window which has a good chance of lasting for many years .... if they don't go nut with their spending.

 

They are already $25M (OvertheCap.com) to $41M(Spotrac) OVER the cap for next year. Spending a lot of money is not, and should not be, a priority.

 

Folks are right that Hopkins is likely to be a very good player even if not what he used to be. But paying the money he got would have hurt us down the road. Significantly.

 

And the point is NOT what is the move that gets us to the next level. They've made it clear - right from the press conferences upon their being hired, but also every time when they've been asked since - that they want to be competitive every year. That's their goal. Whether it's yours or not. 

What you say makes a lot of sense. However, i'd counter that mindset with the Von Miller move. That absolutely screams of a win now mode. It was a risky large contract from day one. He was largely viewed as the missing piece to take the Bills to the SB. I believe most fans here were more than fine with the Bills swinging for the fences sort of speak. 

 

So I find it a bit disingenuous to say that Dhop didn't fit the long term needs of the team. 

 

Also, I get the Bills want to stay competitive. Of course, that's a goal of the team. However, the ultimate goal without question is a SB. Thus, the Miller acquisition.

 

The Bills definelty could have maneuvered their roster to add Dhop. How that would have played out is unknown. What's known is Dhop is not a Bill. 

 

As a Bills fan, I wish the Bills would have acquired him. I think he would have been an integral piece of the Bills offense. A piece that this current offense doesn't have. A piece that would have increased the chances of the Bills representing the AFC. 

 

 

 

53 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

So I can see the two goals in opposition, that's why I referenced Allen. I understand they're not mutually exclusive necessarily but I also don't think they're automatically aligned.

I think the goal is the same for either. The process to get there is where the debates begin. 

[Ethan in Cleveland]

7 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

Pretty sure Tannehill's cap hit is like 2x Allen's for 2023

Wow you are correct. $36M for a journeyman. Holy hell. 
The rest of their roster must be awful to have that kind of cap space left over.

[HappyDays]

6 hours ago, MasterStrategist said:

1. Hines and Settle: didn't both these guys carry cap hits if cut?  Do you recall the savings?  Which players do we target to replace them, what would have been their cap hits VS these 2 players?

 

I am almost positive Hines could have been cut with zero dead cap. That was part of the appeal of trading for him last year, we weren't tied to him beyond 2022. Settle I'm sure had a small dead cap hit, although I can't find his previous contract before the restructure listed on Spotrac or Over The Cap. But certainly those two combined with Poyer would have given us all or almost all the cap space we needed to sign Hopkins.

 

Their replacements are mostly already on the roster. Oliver, Ford, Phillips, and maybe bring back Brandin Bryant. Cook, Harris, and Murray is good enough for me.

 

6 hours ago, MasterStrategist said:

2. Poyer: very few thought we'd be able to resign him, then when we did, most thought his cap hits were good values.  He and Hyde formed a top 5 safety tandem, and when Jordan missed games LY, we were a different defense.  He's worth the value he brings, and leadership in the secondary.

 

I'm aware that most of the fanbase was excited for his return. Not me though. Safety is the least important position on defense. As Allen's cap hits grow we can't afford such a luxury as an expensive safety tandem. It just isn't that important. Poyer is getting older too. It was time to move on.

 

More succinctly: The drop off from Poyer to Rapp <<< The drop off from Hopkins to Davis. Really it isn't even close especially when you factor in positional value.

 

6 hours ago, MasterStrategist said:

3. KC: you can't give them the benefit of the doubt with MVS contract (dead cap), then not Buffalo.  Beane made decisions on all players you mentioned, before Dhop became a FA. 

 

Why would I bring up a 2022 signing as something they could have foreseen would impact their ability to sign Hopkins in 2023? If that's the standard, Beane's decision making looks even worse in retrospect. But I'm trying to be fair.

 

6 hours ago, MasterStrategist said:

4. Gabe: all games you mentioned were lost for several reasons, to pin it on a Gabe drop is just a vendetta. 

 

Yeah I already addressed this... I'm not pinning those losses solely on Davis. I'm saying that his inefficiency was a major cause of those losses and in Hopkins we had an immediate solution to that inefficiency. You're conflating "I think Davis was a fixable problem" with "I think Davis was the only problem." In your world I guess we shouldn't offer any suggestions for improving some aspect of the team because other flaws would still exist.

 

On the subject of efficiency... With Beane failing to upgrade the biggest problem of our offense last year, his free agency spending this year looks very inefficient. It's too bad because overall I liked the signings he made, but I said at the beginning of the offseason that the whole offseason would be a failure if he didn't definitively add a superior #2 target. I have to stand by what I said.

 

Beane can say whatever he wants publicly about how signing Hopkins is out of his hands because of the salary cap situation. The reality is that it was very much in his hands and he let it slip away.

 

Fingers crossed Kincaid meets my wildest expectations as a rookie.

[Ethan in Cleveland]

12 minutes ago, newcam2012 said:

What you say makes a lot of sense. However, i'd counter that mindset with the Von Miller move. That absolutely screams of a win now mode. It was a risky large contract from day one. He was largely viewed as the missing piece to take the Bills to the SB. I believe most fans here were more than fine with the Bills swinging for the fences sort of speak. 

 

So I find it a bit disingenuous to say that Dhop didn't fit the long term needs of the team. 

 

Also, I get the Bills want to stay competitive. Of course, that's a goal of the team. However, the ultimate goal without question is a SB. Thus, the Miller acquisition.

 

The Bills definelty could have maneuvered their roster to add Dhop. How that would have played out is unknown. What's known is Dhop is not a Bill. 

 

As a Bills fan, I wish the Bills would have acquired him. I think he would have been an integral piece of the Bills offense. A piece that this current offense doesn't have. A piece that would have increased the chances of the Bills representing the AFC. 

 

 

 

I think the goal is the same for either. The process to get there is where the debates begin. 

My guess is the only way to make room for Hopkins was to redo White and Dawkins deals. Beane doesn’t want to do that because both of them are possible cap cuts next season. Dawkins is average at best. White didn’t look good coming off injury. If he returns to form then they have a top corner locked up on a decent contract for a few more years. If he does not then they have three guys on cheaper deals they can play and move White to safety with a new deal or outright cut him. It’s harsh but that’s the NFL with guys on large contracts coming off injury.

[Doc Brown]

11 minutes ago, newcam2012 said:

What you say makes a lot of sense. However, i'd counter that mindset with the Von Miller move. That absolutely screams of a win now mode. It was a risky large contract from day one. He was largely viewed as the missing piece to take the Bills to the SB. I believe most fans here were more than fine with the Bills swinging for the fences sort of speak. 

There was a lot more buy in from fans with Miller because we didn't have an elite DE on our roster, we just lost to the Chiefs in the playoffs because Patrick Mahomes had time to read the Old Testament before the pass rush got there, we witnessed the Rams at the top adding Beckham and Von before seeing their collapse, and it was Beane's real first "all in" type move.  I'm not sure if fans had much of an appetite for another one especially after Von's ACL tear.  I think if we moved money around and signed Hopkins to this exact contract the reaction would be more mixed.

[newcam2012]

4 minutes ago, Doc Brown said:

There was a lot more buy in from fans with Miller because we didn't have an elite DE on our roster, we just lost to the Chiefs in the playoffs because Patrick Mahomes had time to read the Old Testament before the pass rush got there, we witnessed the Rams at the top adding Beckham and Von before seeing their collapse, and it was Beane's real first "all in" type move.  I'm not sure if fans had much of an appetite for another one especially after Von's ACL tear.  I think if we moved money around and signed Hopkins to this exact contract the reaction would be more mixed.

I think this is far. My point though is the Bills brass certainly seemed to be in a win now mode with that move. A poster implied that wasn't the mindset of Beane and management. So to use that mindset as rationale to not acquire Dhop seemed flawed or at the very least contradictory. 

 

Also, we fans saw a major drop off at WR after Diggs. It's far to say the Bills WR core after Diggs leaves a lot to be desired. Beane has clearly tried to upgrade the Bills offense on multiple levels. The offensive emphasis is pretty clear. That mindset or direction certainly give credence to acquiring Dhop. 

 

Of course a Dhop acquisition would have created a buzz of negativity. How much we will never know. I don't think many Bills fans would have disliked seeing Dhop in a Bills uniform. 

Edited July 17, 2023 by newcam2012

[Beck Water]

7 hours ago, transient said:

Year 3, actually. Allen started 2018, Diggs first year in Buffalo was 2020. I don't think the mistake was in the WR corp in 2018, though, I think it was in the QB room. They were undergoing a roster makeover. Allen's first season as a Bill was not supposed to be his first season starting, but for the mess that was AJ McCarron and Nate Peterman forcing him into action, when he truly did have no one to throw to. 2019 he had John Brown and Cole Beasely, so I would hardly say he was "without anything even resembling a competent WR" as @Billl states, though he may have been soley referencing 2018.

 

You're right that the biggest 2018 mistake was the QB situation, but the mistake was on all 3 phases of offense.  Beane later admitted he could have done more to bolster the OL after Wood unexpectedly couldn't be cleared to play and Incognito went publicly nuts.  His mistake at WR was believing that Zay Jones would take a step in his 2nd year and that Fat Kelvin Benjamin would be motivated enough.   But in theory, Josh had two competent WR, a former 1st round pick proven capable of 1000 yd season and a former 2nd round pick who had set records in college - just not much of anything behind them.   I think part of their problem was, they knew Josh wasn't ready (didn't understand protections and NFL defenses well enough) so after McCarron was traded and Peterman flamed out in Game 1, both Jones and Benjamin made "career decisions" not to put their bodies on the line for a team that was gonna lose.

 

Making "career decisions" isn't always a habit a player can get out of, though.  That was it for Fat Kelvin, while Zay Jones took 4 years to start looking like a #2 WR again.

Edited July 17, 2023 by Beck Water

[Doc Brown]

50 minutes ago, newcam2012 said:

I think this is far. My point though is the Bills brass certainly seemed to be in a win now mode with that move. A poster implied that wasn't the mindset of Beane and management. So to use that mindset as rationale to not acquire Dhop seemed flawed or at the very least contradictory. 

 

Also, we fans saw a major drop off at WR after Diggs. It's far to say the Bills WR core after Diggs leaves a lot to be desired. Beane has clearly tried to upgrade the Bills offense on multiple levels. The offensive emphasis is pretty clear. That mindset or direction certainly give credence to acquiring Dhop. 

 

Of course a Dhop acquisition would have created a buzz of negativity. How much we will never know. I don't think many Bills fans would have disliked seeing Dhop in a Bills uniform. 

To be fair to that poster in one of his press conferences this off-season, Beane said he didn't want to do a tear down in a couple years and that's what would happen if they weren't responsible as these "win now" signings would pile up.  I think the Von signing was something that he did that was out of his comfort zone and it backfiring with the ACL injury made it less likely he'd take a similar risk.  It's pretty clear now he wasn't signing Hopkins unless he got him at a discount.

[newcam2012]

15 minutes ago, Doc Brown said:

To be fair to that poster in one of his press conferences this off-season, Beane said he didn't want to do a tear down in a couple years and that's what would happen if they weren't responsible as these "win now" signings would pile up.  I think the Von signing was something that he did that was out of his comfort zone and it backfiring with the ACL injury made it less likely he'd take a similar risk.  It's pretty clear now he wasn't signing Hopkins unless he got him at a discount.

I remember Beane saying that. My question is would acquiring Dhop at a similar cost really be considered a tear down? How disruptive would it be? Risk vs reward I'm sure was considered. 

 

What hasn't really been addressed in all of this is the Bills current number 2 WR. Gabe Davis is certainly going to get paid. WR 2s are getting big paychecks.  Frankly, he is younger but not even close to the league of Dhop. Are the Bills planning to pay him or let him walk for nothing? 

 

I would havd been fine with dumping Davis for some decent value and replacing him with Dhop. 

[Doc Brown]

8 minutes ago, newcam2012 said:

I remember Beane saying that. My question is would acquiring Dhop at a similar cost really be considered a tear down? How disruptive would it be? Risk vs reward I'm sure was considered. 

 

What hasn't really been addressed in all of this is the Bills current number 2 WR. Gabe Davis is certainly going to get paid. WR 2s are getting big paychecks.  Frankly, he is younger but not even close to the league of Dhop. Are the Bills planning to pay him or let him walk for nothing? 

 

I would havd been fine with dumping Davis for some decent value and replacing him with Dhop. 

There's so much we don't know.  It was reported that the Bills and Chiefs were trying to acquire D-Hop via trade before the draft before OBJ signed his deal basically blowing up any chance of getting a deal done with either team.  Did Beane shut the door after the draft given we signed Kincaid and he realized there might just be too many mouths to feed?  How good of a sales pitch did the Titans give him?  Was it all about the money?  Did Hopkins not want to be considered a #2 passing option behind either Diggs or Kelce?  Did the whole Diggs situation at mini camp have any impact on signing Hopkins?  Did reports surfacing of Hopkins not practicing during game weeks make Beane more gun shy?  There's a lot of other possibe scenarios that led him to signing with the Titans and not the Chiefs, Bills, Pats, etc... 

 

As far as Davis goes, the quote that sticks out in my mind by Beane is "I know no one - no one - who's going to outwork Gabe Davis."  They talk glowingly about other players who they've let walked but it just feels different with him.  Beane likes to get ahead of the curve when it comes to signing young players he drafted who he thinks has a lot more room to grow (see Ed Oliver and Dawson Knox).  Even Taron Johnson to a lesser extent.  My gut is they see Davis in a similar way and his inconsistent play last year was due to his high ankle sprain and not finding a viable slot option to force the defense to give Davis favorable one one one matchups down the field where he makes his bread and butter.  I do think they sign him to an extension this off-season unless Gabe isn't willing or asks for too much.

 

 

[newcam2012]

2 minutes ago, Doc Brown said:

There's so much we don't know.  It was reported that the Bills and Chiefs were trying to acquire D-Hop via trade before the draft before OBJ signed his deal basically blowing up any chance of getting a deal done with either team.  Did Beane shut the door after the draft given we signed Kincaid and he realized there might just be too many mouths to feed?  How good of a sales pitch did the Titans give him?  Was it all about the money?  Did Hopkins not want to be considered a #2 passing option behind either Diggs or Kelce?  Did the whole Diggs situation at mini camp have any impact on signing Hopkins?  Did reports surfacing of Hopkins not practicing during game weeks make Beane more gun shy?  There's a lot of other possibe scenarios that led him to signing with the Titans and not the Chiefs, Bills, Pats, etc... 

 

As far as Davis goes, the quote that sticks out in my mind by Beane is "I know no one - no one - who's going to outwork Gabe Davis."  They talk glowingly about other players who they've let walked but it just feels different with him.  Beane likes to get ahead of the curve when it comes to signing young players he drafted who he thinks has a lot more room to grow (see Ed Oliver and Dawson Knox).  Even Taron Johnson to a lesser extent.  My gut is they see Davis in a similar way and his inconsistent play last year was due to his high ankle sprain and not finding a viable slot option to force the defense to give Davis favorable one one one matchups down the field where he makes his bread and butter.  I do think they sign him to an extension this off-season unless Gabe isn't willing or asks for too much.

 

 

I hope you are wrong on Davis. Beane also said glowing things about Edmunds and failed to give him a new contract. So it's really hard to gauge what happens to the future of Davis as a Bill. I guess a lot will depend in his play this year abd terms of the contract. 

 

Davis is a feel good story. A steal in the later rounds of the draft. Who doesn't cheer for the underdog? Seems be be a nice guy and an extremely hard worker. That fits the mold of a Buffalo Bill. I can get on board with the Davis love.

 

However, Davis has some pretty big limitations. I see him as a mediocre to average WR2. Personally, I believe the Bills need to upgrade this position. It's exactly why I wanted Dhop. 

 

Guess we will see how things play out. I think Davis will be pretty expensive to keep. WR 2s are getting big money.  I believe some team will over pay him similar to the Edmunds situation. 

[Doc Brown]

17 minutes ago, newcam2012 said:

I hope you are wrong on Davis. Beane also said glowing things about Edmunds and failed to give him a new contract. So it's really hard to gauge what happens to the future of Davis as a Bill. I guess a lot will depend in his play this year abd terms of the contract. 

 

Davis is a feel good story. A steal in the later rounds of the draft. Who doesn't cheer for the underdog? Seems be be a nice guy and an extremely hard worker. That fits the mold of a Buffalo Bill. I can get on board with the Davis love.

 

However, Davis has some pretty big limitations. I see him as a mediocre to average WR2. Personally, I believe the Bills need to upgrade this position. It's exactly why I wanted Dhop. 

 

Guess we will see how things play out. I think Davis will be pretty expensive to keep. WR 2s are getting big money.  I believe some team will over pay him similar to the Edmunds situation. 

There were some hints of criticism of Edmunds by Beane before the final year of his rookie deal.  Specifically when it came to being slower to react to plays at times.  I didn't hear any of that with Gabe.  Regardless, I think they offer him maybe 3 years 33 million or something like that.  If he doesn't take it then they'll just let the season play out.