Jim Johnson was McD’s mentor. Where’s his defense?

[Billl]

22 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said:

We have more secondary talent than the Ravens and they did just fine. We also have an all-pro linebacker and another linebacker many folks like to argue is a "top 10". I'd like to think Harbaugh would have done a FAR better job with the same group of players.

If you think the defense that played the Bengals last Sunday had more talent on it than the Ravens, we’re just going to disagree.

[BillsFan130]

1 hour ago, Billl said:

 

Here are the players who played the most defensive snaps against the Bengals:

Lawson

Rousseau

Oliver

Settle

Milano

Edmunds

Johnson

Elam

White

Marlowe

Poyer

 

Poyer and White were clearly less than 100%.  There is not a DC in the history of the league who could take that group of players and consistently slow down Burrow, Mixon, Chase, Higgins, Boyd, and Hurst.  Had Von, Hyde, Poyer, and White all been available and close to 100%, it’s a different conversation.  Instead, Frasier brought a knife to a gun fight.

 

Burrow Vs Zone. 16 for 20 for 2 TDs in the 1st half.

 

Against man? He was  2 for 7..

 

Yet we continue to run soft zone cause he’s terrified of giving up a long play.

 

And you’re saying that’s not a scheme issue?

[Einstein]

51 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

The 13 second debacle was indeed a debacle. From coaching to special teams to defense.

 

I feel like "debacle" (even though its not technically the definition) gives the feeling of fluke or "wont happen again".

 

But it does keep happening again.

 

- The infamous Deshaun Watson non-sack that lost the Texans playoff game

- 13 seconds

- Playing 10 yards off WR's on 3rd and 4 and generally getting abused all game against Cinci.

This is no longer a fluke or momentary lapse. This is a habit. This is a trend. This is the "norm" for playoff Bills defense

 

51 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

But the Bills defense has ranked highly every year too

 

I think a lot of us are tired of hearing about how well the Bills defense does in the regular season when they are just going to crap the bed in the playoffs. 

 

We have given up 27 or more points in 3 straight playoff games. We have given up at least 24 points in 5 of the last 7 playoff games. 

 

Its great that the defense performs well in the regular season but what does it matter if they consistently crap the bed in the deep playoffs?

 

Frustrating.

 

.

Edited January 28, 2023 by Einstein

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

I feel like "debacle" (even though its not technically the definition) gives the feeling of fluke or "wont happen again".

 

But it does keep happening again.

 

- The infamous Deshaun Watson non-sack that lost the Texans playoff game

- 13 seconds

- Playing 10 yards off WR's on 3rd and 4 and generally getting abused all game.

This is no longer a fluke or momentary lapse. This is a habit. This is a trend. This is the "norm" for playoff Bills defense

 

 

I think a lot of us are tired of hearing about how well the Bills defense does in the regular season when they are just going to crap the bed in the playoffs. 

 

We have given up 27 or more points in 3 straight playoff games. We have given up at least 24 points in 5 of the last 7 playoff games. 

 

Its great that the defense performs well in the regular season but what does it matter if they consistently crap the bed in the deep playoffs?

 

.

 

My point is this thread was created to say why can't the Bills defense be more like another defense that didn't ultimately get it done in the post season. 

 

The Bills defense has to be better in the post-season. No question. But their big points give ups have come against the best offenses. That is normally the way it works. Doesn't give them a free pass but it is what it is. They have to find a way to play better in those spots. 

 

I am just not as persuaded as everyone else that the reason is scheme. There is a lot of commonality scheme wise between what the Bills do and what the two teams playing in the NFCCG tomorrow do. Yes, they have to call it better and execute it better when the big moments come. That is the challenge. 

[MJS]

The Bills have had a statistically great defense the past few years. They seem to struggle against the elite offenses, though, which makes sense.

 

I think they are too rigid. They need to be more willing to change things up.

[Einstein]

15 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

I am just not as persuaded as everyone else that the reason is scheme. 

 

I'm not either. But its either scheme (coaching) or players. Those are the only two options. And both come down to McD/Beane, whether they don't have the right players, or the right scheme.

 

Watching Cinci these last two playoff runs have been impressive. Their D is not as good as ours in the regular season, but come playoff time they just go wild. And the top-tier offenses (like KC and the Rams last year) don't seem to phase them. 

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, Einstein said:

 

I'm not either. But its either scheme (coaching) or players. Those are the only two options. And both come down to McD/Beane, whether they don't have the right players, or the right scheme.

 

Watching Cinci these last two playoff runs have been impressive. Their D is not as good as ours in the regular season, but come playoff time they just go wild. And the top-tier offenses (like KC and the Rams last year) don't seem to phase them. 

 

Of course it all ultimately comes down to McDermott and Beane. They are running the franchise and have been for 6 and 5 years respectively. They own the success and the failure. When you look at the body of work you have to judge them on that. I still say that judgment is in their favour but I understand why people are beginning to ask those questions in terms if winning the big one. The thing is winning Superbowls is darn hard. The Patriots dynasty has kind of slanted perceptions a bit. But there is no other Head Coach or GM in the NFL who has more than 1 on their CV. Maybe Reid, Veach or Roseman change that this year or maybe the Bengals / 9ers brain trusts get theirs. I think the Bills regime deserves an opportunity to make the right decisions to fix some of the repeat issues and make 2023 their year. Will I feel the same if they fail again next year? Not sure. Ask me again then. 

[Aussie Joe]

24 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

 

I am just not as persuaded as everyone else that the reason is scheme. There is a lot of commonality scheme wise between what the Bills do and what the two teams playing in the NFCCG tomorrow do. Yes, they have to call it better and execute it better when the big moments come. That is the challenge. 

Do you think there is enough variety in the Bills scheme? 
 

Also, is it flexible enough to change or try something different when the other team O is dominating …?

Also, for some time now there has been a problem with 3rd and long conversions…( proceeding this year as well)  what do you put that down to?  Just lack of execution or does this itself point to a flaw in the scheme?

[BBills_88]

I was hoping Mc D style of Defense would be more aggressive like Jim Johnson.

[BADOLBILZ]

24 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Of course it all ultimately comes down to McDermott and Beane. They are running the franchise and have been for 6 and 5 years respectively. They own the success and the failure. When you look at the body of work you have to judge them on that. I still say that judgment is in their favour but I understand why people are beginning to ask those questions in terms if winning the big one. The thing is winning Superbowls is darn hard. The Patriots dynasty has kind of slanted perceptions a bit. But there is no other Head Coach or GM in the NFL who has more than 1 on their CV. Maybe Reid, Veach or Roseman change that this year or maybe the Bengals / 9ers brain trusts get theirs. I think the Bills regime deserves an opportunity to make the right decisions to fix some of the repeat issues and make 2023 their year. Will I feel the same if they fail again next year? Not sure. Ask me again then. 

 

 

I think it's time for a new DC.    6 years is a long time for the same DC to be running the same defense.   Leslie will be 64 next season.   He's not like Wade Phillips who had proven he could change his defense to suit the personnel or the opponent and warranted a DC position until his early 70's.   They've become a defense who isn't fooling anyone any longer........as the season wears on teams get better at executing their offense.........they know how the Bills will react to what they show them....... and we then get diminishing returns despite adding more and more talent to the defense every season for the past 5.

[Dr.Sack]

Defenses need to be able to sack the QB and create pressure. After Miller went down we had none of that. The Bills should send 6 or 7 and look to get off the field as fast as possible whether by creating a turnover, forcing a punt, or giving up a fast score. Gone are the days where you look to bleed ground giving up easy completions or inviting the run underneath and exposing your defense to 80 plays per game. Over the course of the season that ends up destroying your team and injuring many players across the defense. The goal of a defense should be to knock the other QB on his ass, make plays on the ball, create chaos and wreak havoc on the opposing teams offense. 

[boyst]

I really don't have much energy to think about this. I'm still frustrated, and I'm still trying to adjust to the current league. 

 

However, I think the time consuming defense That thrive in the past are not going to be successful. The new defense is designed to create pressure, create turnovers, and have big impacts. It's quite frustrating to a purest, but that's okay because that's how things evolve naturally.

 

The entire NFL has loaded defenses which only bend and don't break. They used to say defense wins championships, but it's offenses that get you to the championship. I just don't see defenses being relevant anymore.

 

 

[Sharky7337]

3 hours ago, Billl said:

 

Here are the players who played the most defensive snaps against the Bengals:

Lawson

Rousseau

Oliver

Settle

Milano

Edmunds

Johnson

Elam

White

Marlowe

Poyer

 

Poyer and White were clearly less than 100%.  There is not a DC in the history of the league who could take that group of players and consistently slow down Burrow, Mixon, Chase, Higgins, Boyd, and Hurst.  Had Von, Hyde, Poyer, and White all been available and close to 100%, it’s a different conversation.  Instead, Frasier brought a knife to a gun fight.

 

That's one really expensive knife.

Edited January 28, 2023 by Sharky7337

[GunnerBill]

35 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

I think it's time for a new DC.    6 years is a long time for the same DC to be running the same defense.   Leslie will be 64 next season.   He's not like Wade Phillips who had proven he could change his defense to suit the personnel or the opponent and warranted a DC position until his early 70's.   They've become a defense who isn't fooling anyone any longer........as the season wears on teams get better at executing their offense.........they know how the Bills will react to what they show them....... and we then get diminishing returns despite adding more and more talent to the defense every season for the past 5.

 

Personally I disagree but I don't think it is an unreasonable view. Leslie's defense relies on confusion on the back end and I think the loss of Hyde, injury to Poyer and diminishment of White just restricted what he could do. I would rather the regime ride and die with what they have. Rather than a coordinator change where in a year's time we hear the "natural progression from year 2 in the system."

[vincec]

1 hour ago, BBills_88 said:

I was hoping Mc D style of Defense would be more aggressive like Jim Johnson.

I think they started off that way but they have gotten less and less aggressive each year. It seems like a conscious change in concept.

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, Aussie Joe said:

Do you think there is enough variety in the Bills scheme? 
 

Also, is it flexible enough to change or try something different when the other team O is dominating …?

Also, for some time now there has been a problem with 3rd and long conversions…( proceeding this year as well)  what do you put that down to?  Just lack of execution or does this itself point to a flaw in the scheme?

 

I don't think there was at times this year. But that was down to personnel available to do as much disguise as they like on the back end. 

 

As for adjustments.... the Bills do them well and did to a lesser extent even on Sunday. They are a second half defense and that is consistent over multiple years. 

 

The third and longs is primarily a result of a sub standard pass rush. 

 

[Billever76]

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I don't disagree the Bills had brain freeze in that moment and blew it. That is beyond debate.

Great coaches Do not have brain freeze at that point...we call that an EPIC COLLAPSE and it's a fireable offense at that stage in the NFL

[Jrb1979]

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

And nor was Oliver close to 100% either. At times it felt like Edmunds and Milano were playing defense on their own.... and that is cos they kinda were for stages. 

 

Like the Bills D you mean? 

In the regular season and against bad or average offenses it works. Those offenses will make mistakes. Against elite offenses like most in the playoffs it struggles. 

[Billever76]

9 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Personally I disagree but I don't think it is an unreasonable view. Leslie's defense relies on confusion on the back end and I think the loss of Hyde, injury to Poyer and diminishment of White just restricted what he could do. I would rather the regime ride and die with what they have. Rather than a coordinator change where in a year's time we hear the "natural progression from year 2 in the system."

What was the excuses for the other years?

[BuffaloBillsGospel2014]

3 hours ago, TheyCallMeAndy said:

Why are we acting like the defense is bad?

 

A practice squad safety, 1 arm and 1 legged safety, clearly not back Tre White, 4th string DT, practice squad DE and practice squad DT all played high amounts of snaps vs Bengals. 

 

2 second round DL, 2- first round DL and only 1 sack on Burrow, all of these players were in the game and in full health. There were 3 Bengals OL out with injury, The injury excuse is BS, we were dominated on both the OL and DL. We need better players in the trenches and can't just count on Von miller and Micah Hyde.